Night Vision Safran TAD

[WhereNow&How]

An interesting observation I learned about the PAS 29 Coti is that in Outline White mode it will penetrate deeper into thick cover and tell you something alive is in there better than a powerful 640 unit. You wont necessarily have a clue what it is, but further investingation will yeild some kind of live critter. That is of value to me.

That is amazing to me and proves that the Outline White mode algorithm was uniquely written such that it will do that. Kudos to Software Engineers back around 2007ish.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I run handheld and helmet mounted Thermal Scanners and they do great, but having a correctly set COTI always working through your NV 24/7 will make sure you don't miss anything out there. Having both is the optimum way.

 

[Conqueror]

My understanding is that they simplified the E-COTI menus over the COTI because the average grunt being issued one didn’t have the interest or wherewithal to be fucking with all the gain settings especially multiple times throughout the night. Would be easy to accidentally screw up and set the gain so wrong that the device wouldn’t detect appropriately in a given environment. Perhaps it reduced the ability of a sophisticated user to fine-tune it perfectly to their use case, but the military probably doesn’t care about that.

 

[Dogtown]

Really? I got the impression the TAD is aimed purely at the commercial market, hence the no ITAR feature.

 

[WhereNow&How]

My understanding is that they simplified the E-COTI menus over the COTI because the average grunt being issued one didn’t have the interest or wherewithal to be fucking with all the gain settings especially multiple times throughout the night. Would be easy to accidentally screw up and set the gain so wrong that the device wouldn’t detect appropriately in a given environment. Perhaps it reduced the ability of a sophisticated user to fine-tune it perfectly to their use case, but the military probably doesn’t care about that.

You likely are correct.

So learn your equipment well or let natural selection rules apply. Staying Alive is important.

 

[Dogtown]

True, just tempter expectations...

 

[Conqueror]

Really? I got the impression the TAD is aimed purely at the commercial market, hence the no ITAR feature.

I was talking about the COTI vs ECOTI. I’m not totally certain why they would even further simplify the TAD menus other than 1) noting that Civs still probably aren’t the intended market for these, probably more LE/SAR and 2) perhaps they have tweaked the software sufficiently that they felt certain ECOTI settings were no longer required.

 

[WhereNow&How]

One thing for sure. Trump gets the Stayin Alive award of the Century after that ear nick.

 

[Dogtown]

I was talking about the COTI vs ECOTI. I’m not totally certain why they would even further simplify the TAD menus other than 1) noting that Civs still probably aren’t the intended market for these, probably more LE/SAR and 2) perhaps they have tweaked the software sufficiently that they felt certain ECOTI settings were no longer required.

That makes sense.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I was talking about the COTI vs ECOTI. I’m not totally certain why they would even further simplify the TAD menus other than 1) noting that Civs still probably aren’t the intended market for these, probably more LE/SAR and 2) perhaps they have tweaked the software sufficiently that they felt certain ECOTI settings were no longer required.

Maybe those are actually DEI settings. Gotta simplify things for the simple minded so they can be equitably included regardless of how you weaken the results. Lord knows some of them dont even know how to reholster their pistol correctly.

 

[WhereNow&How]

True, just tempter expectations...

For $6,500.00 I would expect a knob polisher to come with it.

 

[Conqueror]

It probably takes $65 million for a defense contractor to start polishing knobs

 

[ardrummer292]

My TAD just showed up today. I likely won’t have time to mess with it for awhile, so my observations will have to wait.

Somewhat related: does anyone have recommendations on a helmet pouch for a USB battery pack? The 2.75” x 1.25” x 5.5” dimensions of the TNVC Mk1 Mohawk I ordered:

TNVC Mohawk MK1 Gen. 2 Counterweight

*** There is currently an extended lead time for out of stock colors *** Helmet Accessory Storage and Retention System

tnvc.com

… doesn’t fit the 3.07” x 1.02” x 4.49” dimensions of the Voltaic V50 battery pack I got to power the TAD (and my DTNVS):

https://voltaicsystems.com/v50/

*Edited to add:

Dimensions of the battery pack with cables connected and routed is 3.52" x 1.02" x 5.23"

 

[WhereNow&How]

My TAD just showed up today. I likely won’t have time to mess with it for awhile, so my observations will have to wait.

Somewhat related: does anyone have recommendations on a helmet pouch for a USB battery pack? The 2.75” x 1.25” x 5.5” dimensions of the TNVC Mk1 Mohawk I ordered:

TNVC Mohawk MK1 Gen. 2 Counterweight

*** There is currently an extended lead time for out of stock colors *** Helmet Accessory Storage and Retention System

tnvc.com

… doesn’t fit the 3.07” x 1.02” x 4.49” dimensions of the Voltaic V50 battery pack I got to power the TAD (and my DTNVS):

https://voltaicsystems.com/v50/

So I run the Nitecore NPB2 10,000mAh Waterproof Power Bank. Link below with dimensions so you can compare to your battery size. It fits in both of these pouches listed below. Both pouches are of good quality. This battery is what I power my Pas 29 COTI's with.

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

Nitecore NPB2 10,000mAh Waterproof Power Bank

NITECORE NPB2 10,000mAh Waterproof Power Bank

Nitecore NPB2 10,000mAh Waterproof Power Bank. QC Quick Charge 3.0 Output. Built-in 21700 Li-ion Batteries.

www.nitecorestore.com

 

[JWG]

I've noted another quirk with mine, as well. Sometimes it won't turn on unless I remove/replace the battery cap. I have asked Optics 1 about this and will update with their response.

 

[ardrummer292]

So I run the Nitecore NPB2 10,000mAh Waterproof Power Bank. Link below with dimensions so you can compare to your battery size. It fits in both of these pouches listed below. Both pouches are of good quality. This battery is what I power my Pas 29 COTI's with.

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

I re-checked my battery pack dimensions with the cables installed; it doesn't look like either of those options will work. The search continues...

*Edited to add:

Dimensions of the battery pack with cables connected and routed is 3.52" x 1.02" x 5.23"

 

[Conqueror]

I've noted another quirk with mine, as well. Sometimes it won't turn on unless I remove/replace the battery cap. I have asked Optics 1 about this and will update with their response.

This was happening to mine and I believe it was a mount issue, does yours fully and securely lock into the mount ring? Apparently there is a magnet system that detects whether it is fully seated and it will prevent the unit from powering on if it isn’t properly mounted.

 

[JWG]

This was happening to mine and I believe it was a mount issue, does yours fully and securely lock into the mount ring? Apparently there is a magnet system that detects whether it is fully seated and it will prevent the unit from powering on if it isn’t properly mounted.

Yes. Also, I clipped and unclipped it. It did not turn on. I uncapped and recapped the battery, and this fixed it. I then removed it from the mount, on, and it moved about 1/2 a cm before cutting off. Very tolerant of not being fully seated.

 

[CoryT]

For those that are interested, I have the cap built for the USB power cable, thanks to adrummer292 for the loan of his unit. I sent a note to Preston to see if SOK wants to carry these along with the original CUBA, if he does, they will be exclusive through them. If you already have a CUBA with the Lemo cable/battery adapter, the cap can be retrofit easily.

 

[CoryT]

15 caps will be headed to Preston sometime tomorrow. A sacrificial window mount is on the way to adrummer292 as well. Once tested, that will also be available for those that may need it.

 

[JWG]

Still waiting on TNVC to get me squared away. Fixes for the issues (Stuck menu, light pollution from un-centered image when offsets are used, failure to start, and auto-cal failure) are supposed to be on the way.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Still waiting on TNVC to get me squared away. Fixes for the issues (Stuck menu, light pollution from un-centered image when offsets are used, failure to start, and auto-cal failure) are supposed to be on the way.

 

[WhereNow&How]

So at 16.45 minutes into this video, Augee admits : " we asked them to make a dumb ecoti".

Well I guess they suceeded: "Stuck menu, light pollution from un-centered image when offsets are used, failure to start, and auto-cal failure"

 

[JWG]

So at 16.45 minutes into this video, Augee admits : " we asked them to make a dumb ecoti".

Well I guess they suceeded: "Stuck menu, light pollution from un-centered image when offsets are used, failure to start, and auto-cal failure"

From what I understand, all this is easily fixable and will be fixed soon. It has better sensor and imagery than the eCOTI, and is much cheaper, so the downside is that it needs to go back to the mothership. This will be an early adopter issue (that gets fixed) and get lost in the noise later.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Hopefully so. What amazes me is Optics 1 has been making these type devices from back around 2007 ish, so you would think they would have it down pat on how to write correctly functioning firmware. Plus their Quality Control program should have caught all of this before they ever sent them out.

 

[WhereNow&How]

It has better sensor and imagery than the eCOTI

That is all fine and dandy. However, from what I understand the firmware only offers preset GAIN options. These type devices need to allow you the ability to incrementally fine "TOON" adjust the GAIN to get the best benifits of these type devices otherwise you will end up with too much thermal clutter being pumped 24/7 into your NV channel scenery.

 

[JWG]

Hopefully so. What amazes me is Optics 1 has been making these type devices from back around 2007 ish, so you would think they would have it down pat on how to write correctly functioning firmware. Plus their Quality Control program should have caught all of this before they ever sent them out.

I tend to catch things most companies don't, but this is one of the more glaring examples, yes.

 

[JWG]

That is all fine and dandy. However, from what I understand the firmware only offers preset GAIN options. These type devices need to allow you the ability to incrementally fine "TOON" adjust the GAIN to get the best benifits of these type devices otherwise you will end up with too much thermal clutter being pumped 24/7 into your NV channel scenery.

I don't think eCOTI allows you to do anything different, does it? I have not used one.

 

[Dogtown]

I don't think eCOTI allows you to do anything different, does it? I have not used one.

The E-COTI has the same environmental presets as the TAD, but also gives you independent control over Max Gain / Gain / Offset. They are tricky settings to tune.

 

[JWG]

The E-COTI has the same environmental presets as the TAD, but also gives you independent control over Max Gain / Gain / Offset. They are tricky settings to tune.

Can you explain that? Intellectually, I get it, but put me behind the unit.

EX:

TAD

I hold the power button, it comes on, I press the button sequence to go to menu, then I go to the settings for the preset and select desert or arctic or whatever, then the menu goes away, it is what it is. I adjust brightness with the two buttons on the unit.


So what would I do with eCOTI?

I am seriously wondering if the worse sensor wouldn't be worth it to have a better software package.

 

[Dogtown]

So near those presets, the E-COTI has the actual parameters that drive those presets and you can tweak them individually. They're kind of counter-intuitive and I really struggled with them, especially as conditions changed. With the TAD, those are hidden and you just have the presets to sort toggle through, which is still fine for a lot of people.

Max Gain - is like a thermal ceiling value
Gain - is just an overall gain value (separate from overall brightness)
Offset - shifts the thermal level +/- 16 points

The Offset was the tricky one. It acts kind of like a clamp on the upper and lower values. The effect was to shift the whole thermal image, so that if there was too much noise, it would fade that out if you went negative, or if you weren't getting enough registered you'd go positive and it would lift the values. I likened it to a type of thermal exposure, but it never really worked to my liking.

 

[JWG]

So near those presets, the E-COTI has the actual parameters that drive those presets and you can tweak them individually. They're kind of counter-intuitive and I really struggled with them, especially as conditions changed. With the TAD, those are hidden and you just have the presets to sort toggle through, which is still fine for a lot of people.

Max Gain - is like a thermal ceiling value
Gain - is just an overall gain value (separate from overall brightness)
Offset - shifts the thermal level +/- 16 points

The Offset was the tricky one. It acts kind of like a clamp on the upper and lower values. The effect was to shift the whole thermal image, so that if there was too much noise, it would fade that out if you went negative, or if you weren't getting enough registered you'd go positive and it would lift the values. I likened it to a type of thermal exposure, but it never really worked to my liking.

Was all this actually useful, or did you find it more cumbersome throughout the night than anything ?

 

[Dogtown]

I personally struggled with dealing with the thermal noise; just trying to get the environment to disappear and only brighten people and critters was a chore in my dry environments. Like all passive thermal imagers, it works best mid-night when the environment has mostly reached thermal equilibrium. Having to regularly tweak it was annoying mostly because it wasn’t all that intuitive. I have a background in image processing and it wouldn’t seem all that difficult to me to instead have it operate in a temperature absolute or relative mode, with a threshold parameter to set a thermal floor so that only lights up temperature value above it. You’d just set the mode and dial up the threshold until the environment disappears.

 

[Conqueror]

Still waiting on TNVC to get me squared away. Fixes for the issues (Stuck menu, light pollution from un-centered image when offsets are used, failure to start, and auto-cal failure) are supposed to be on the way.

Mine has been back at Safran for about a month now, no updates yet but hopefully they are fixing issues for both our sakes. It’s a little nuts that we waited like a year for these and they still have so many fairly obvious issues.

 

[JWG]

Mine has been back at Safran for about a month now, no updates yet but hopefully they are fixing issues for both our sakes. It’s a little nuts that we waited like a year for these and they still have so many fairly obvious issues.

Yeah, I know TNVC will make things right, regardless, but it just sucks to wait some more. My alternative plan if they can't sort it is just trade for credit toward an eCOTI. I really value what the thermal overlay brings to the table for my setup.

 

[JWG]

Looks like a fix will be in very soon, per TNVC.

 

[Dogtown]

Guess i should send mine in too…for the sake of symmetry.

 

[JWG]

Guess i should send mine in too…for the sake of symmetry.

I know I'd want it fixed. Contact TNVC, they will contact SAFRAN/O1, and they will hand out the RMA directly.

 

[Conqueror]

I heard from my CS rep, they have found a fix for the light leak but they do not yet have a clear ETA on the “doesn’t always power on” issue, though they are working on it.

 

[jt526]

So my take away here is to keep my ECOTI and don’t go chasing waterfalls and a little better resolution?

 

[Dogtown]

Basically.

 

[JWG]

At this point, I am torn between getting my TAD fixed, and just upcharging for the eCOTI. Does anyone have both on hand that can speak to actual performance between the two?

My thoughts: If the TAD made it out the door with problems some dipshit midlevel office manager in BFE Missouri can detect in a few hours...what else is wrong with it that may come to light later? What other corners were cut that haven't been found yet?

I am not trying to be negative, but I need to have an honest conversation about that aspect of this whole situation.

I also don't want to throw out the superior unit (once its fixed) due to impatience.

 

[Dogtown]

I had an E-COTI for about a year, sold it recently because I struggled to tune-out the thermal noise so it wasn’t getting much use, then bought a TAD in an Ambien fueled longing for the E-COTI, thinking “well maybe it’ll be better?”

They are nearly identical in so many ways. The problem for me is that the TAD neuters the one aspect that I feel the E-COTI absolutely needed: more control over the image vs just toggling presets. That’s basically it. The external battery/data port is a bonus but I never felt I needed it and I sure couldn’t use the awesome ATAK integration, so the E-COTI brings more to the table that I couldn’t or didn’t use.

All that being said, I just fucking know if I were to offload the TAD I’d be kicking myself next time I’m out goonin’. So I guess it’ll be hanging out in my helmet bag staring back at me every time I load up: “hey buddy…we gonna do some fun night stuff together? Come on, take me for a spin…I promise I won’t let you down this time…just ignore all of that vegetation lighting up…I promise one of those warm spots is a critter.” It’s Lucy and I’m fuckin’ Charlie Brown with this thing.

 

[JWG]

I had an E-COTI for about a year, sold it recently because I struggled to tune-out the thermal noise so it wasn’t getting much use, then bought a TAD in an Ambien fueled longing for the E-COTI, thinking “well maybe it’ll be better?”

They are nearly identical in so many ways. The problem for me is that the TAD neuters the one aspect that I feel the E-COTI absolutely needed: more control over the image vs just toggling presets. That’s basically it. The external battery/data port is a bonus but I never felt I needed it and I sure couldn’t use the awesome ATAK integration, so the E-COTI brings more to the table that I couldn’t or didn’t use.

All that being said, I just fucking know if I were to offload the TAD I’d be kicking myself next time I’m out goonin’. So I guess it’ll be hanging out in my helmet bag staring back at me every time I load up: “hey buddy…we gonna do some fun night stuff together? Come on, take me for a spin…I promise I won’t let you down this time…just ignore all of that vegetation lighting up…I promise one of those warm spots is a critter.” It’s Lucy and I’m fuckin’ Charlie Brown with this thing.

Soo....if you could only have a 100% functional TAD or an eCOTI...?

 

[JWG]

Also...if you take a picture with eCOTI, can you review it, delete it, etc via the unit itself, or is it just forever on the disk and unaccessible unless you have the cable?

 

[Conqueror]

Taking pictures with these units is kinda useless because of course they don’t have the NV so you just get the raw thermal overlay saved which may or may not be any good as a standalone image.

I’m happy to have a fixed TAD once it’s back to me. I think it is going to essentially perform as well as the ecoti for most uses and save me a couple grand worth of features I don’t need (ATAK). I’d be even happier if someone made an equivalent product for half as much but the Jerry isn’t as good imo and is a lot bigger.

 

[Conqueror]

My thoughts: If the TAD made it out the door with problems some dipshit midlevel office manager in BFE Missouri can detect in a few hours...what else is wrong with it that may come to light later? What other corners were cut that haven't been found yet?

Safran is marketing these to LE, SAR operations, firefighters, etc. I don’t think they are attempting to cut corners and I think they want to deliver a good product. It’s still over $6k so it’s not even really that discounted. If I use it and it fails to spot a hog, nothing terrible happens, but if a non-military professional uses it and can’t detect a baby in a smoky house or something, that would be a disaster and a huge liability. Ecotis have had their problems too like when the marines kept breaking them all the time.

 

[JWG]

Safran is marketing these to LE, SAR operations, firefighters, etc. I don’t think they are attempting to cut corners and I think they want to deliver a good product. It’s still over $6k so it’s not even really that discounted. If I use it and it fails to spot a hog, nothing terrible happens, but if a non-military professional uses it and can’t detect a baby in a smoky house or something, that would be a disaster and a huge liability. Ecotis have had their problems too like when the marines kept breaking them all the time.

...and yet, I have performed a T&E with almost half a dozen failure aspects in a few hours, as a filthy casual. So forgive me for wondering if $2500 is all for ATAK software. I know the eCOTI is much more environmentally sealed, but am curious about the rest.

 

[JWG]

Taking pictures with these units is kinda useless because of course they don’t have the NV so you just get the raw thermal overlay saved which may or may not be any good as a standalone image.

I’m happy to have a fixed TAD once it’s back to me. I think it is going to essentially perform as well as the ecoti for most uses and save me a couple grand worth of features I don’t need (ATAK). I’d be even happier if someone made an equivalent product for half as much but the Jerry isn’t as good imo and is a lot bigger.

For sure, but Id hate to be pumping data into the card that I can't erase. Seems like it would be a bad idea.

 

[Conqueror]

...and yet, I have performed a T&E with almost half a dozen failure aspects in a few hours, as a filthy casual. So forgive me for wondering if $2500 is all for ATAK software. I know the eCOTI is much more environmentally sealed, but am curious about the rest.

They both have 20m water ratings, what other environmental sealing are you referring to?