It's hard to beat a good thermal scanner for a lot of uses, and it will be superior for longer range detection and PID than any COTI. But no doubt, having NV/Thermal fusion on your head, even being more limited on the thermal side, is something special. I haven't looked through the newer integrated fusion systems, but the older systems had the same issues with clutter, so it's not a COTI vs Integrated issue.
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Night Vision Safran TAD
- Thread starter Dogtown
- Start date
My findings mirror yours, except I have no experience with COTI devices prior to this, save a PAS29a on a shitty green screen (not that green is bad, but this one was). I found that worthless. This on the other hand is a "capabilities enhanced" tool, for sure.
I agree on the brightness. I sometimes would manually adjust as a form of "sensitivity change".
All in all, my INITIAL gut response was "meh", but then I saw how much I was missing and able to engage with MFAL now that I have this device, and the "meh" turned from "this does not look flawless, but the capabilities bump is undeniable".
TNVC told me that this would be similar performance more or less as ENVG-B.
Based on this quick video, minus the color, outline mode looks similar enough. The pure thermal of the ENVG-B looks superior to me. Either way, it's far better than not having it, and is a genuine "capabilities added".
"Arctic" worked fine. My valley is so humid my father insisted it was raining every morning due to dew falling from the trees, lol!
Agreed across the board.
While I was a little frustrated with the E-COTI, I missed it not long after I sold it. And I kept telling myself, "just wait a few more years for something better", but pulled the trigger on the TAD anyway one night while in an Ambien haze.
And I should point out, when you get close to objects in High Contrast mode, it's "full thermal 640x res" impressive. I could see so much detail on my dog with him trailing behind me about 10 yards away. That performance is similar, but better than the E-COTI and light years better than the COTI.
While I was a little frustrated with the E-COTI, I missed it not long after I sold it. And I kept telling myself, "just wait a few more years for something better", but pulled the trigger on the TAD anyway one night while in an Ambien haze.
And I should point out, when you get close to objects in High Contrast mode, it's "full thermal 640x res" impressive. I could see so much detail on my dog with him trailing behind me about 10 yards away. That performance is similar, but better than the E-COTI and light years better than the COTI.
That's quite the claim from TNVC. I have a tiny bit of time under ENVG-Bs, so I'll try to recall that experience when I compare to my own Supergain DTNVS + TAD setup. I do know one drawback right out of the gate: that TAD will be sticking waaay off the front of my face, so I'll have to be mindful not to snag on doors and the like.
Gotta run your NODs way back if you don't want the TAD to make things fully erect.
That is why I run mine over the left tube, as I am right eye dominant and will passive aim as such.
Way better than I expected.
I went nuts and had them built out with 24UAH tubes because I predominantly night shoot in really dark conditions, and I couldn't be happier. Yes, they are beefy, but not the neck killer some make it out to be. Getting the balance on the helmet is key.
All that being said, I'm generally against the Chinesium gear and made the naive mistake of assuming Argus housings were part of the Argus line of gear from Theon. If I'd known they were in fact Chinese knockoff GPNVGs, I would have held out for the forthcoming Nocturn quads, because...principals. But I guess it's okay to fall off the wagon once during a very committed dry spell if it's soooo worth it.
I went nuts and had them built out with 24UAH tubes because I predominantly night shoot in really dark conditions, and I couldn't be happier. Yes, they are beefy, but not the neck killer some make it out to be. Getting the balance on the helmet is key.
All that being said, I'm generally against the Chinesium gear and made the naive mistake of assuming Argus housings were part of the Argus line of gear from Theon. If I'd known they were in fact Chinese knockoff GPNVGs, I would have held out for the forthcoming Nocturn quads, because...principals. But I guess it's okay to fall off the wagon once during a very committed dry spell if it's soooo worth it.
Glad to hear they are treating you well! Hope Nocturn gets their stuff out sooner than later; I'd really like to run their Samurai binos.
You notice the extra noise with the H tubes in the dark? Curious about specs if you care to share...
You notice the extra noise with the H tubes in the dark? Curious about specs if you care to share...
I have H tubes in my binos. 38snr,0.5ebi,72lp, or thereabouts with 4um mcp. They're fine. The noise is slightly more, ever so slight, but I prefer them to similar spec UA tubes. It gives me that last 10% more edge in the dark where I live. Autogain housing.
It was tricky finding four tubes with closely matching specs, but all are around SNR 37 +/- 0.3 and < 1.0 Halo & EBI, one has a tiny bit of peppering.
My overall impression of Supergain is that they're basically L3 tubes in the vast majority of conditions, but when you get dark like no moon and can't see your hand in front of your face, they excel. The noise is there, but it's different. I've been running a set of RNVG-As with high spec 24UAs for a while now and they're nice and crisp, but when you get into really dark conditions you get the typical noise. With Supergain you instead get this really fine noise across the entire image, and when you would normally get that SNR noise, it's not as pronounced or coarse. But the image quality is better; shadows get lifted and everything just stands out better. I got a really good deal on the tubes, otherwise I'm not sure they'd be worth any big premium over high spec 24UAs, especially if you don't shoot on moonless nights often.
My overall impression of Supergain is that they're basically L3 tubes in the vast majority of conditions, but when you get dark like no moon and can't see your hand in front of your face, they excel. The noise is there, but it's different. I've been running a set of RNVG-As with high spec 24UAs for a while now and they're nice and crisp, but when you get into really dark conditions you get the typical noise. With Supergain you instead get this really fine noise across the entire image, and when you would normally get that SNR noise, it's not as pronounced or coarse. But the image quality is better; shadows get lifted and everything just stands out better. I got a really good deal on the tubes, otherwise I'm not sure they'd be worth any big premium over high spec 24UAs, especially if you don't shoot on moonless nights often.
Agreed on Supergain tube performance. The coarse scintillation present in regular tubes when subjected to very dark conditions has always been distracting to me, especially when remaining static and scanning for movement. All the fuzz going across the screen fatigues the eyes and makes it much harder to spot what you're looking for. Supergain tubes do seem to have a finer, less noticeable scintillation pattern, which doesn't have an appreciable impact on performance until you find yourself in conditions dark enough to make other tubes fail outright.
Back on topic: just ordered all my ancillary equipment for the TAD. Got a whole bunch of stuff to run both my NODs and TAD off external power, including a CUBA coming from SOK. I'm hoping that will be a plug-and-play part, but have already been in touch with one of the guys there in case I run into compatibility issues. Now to wait until business hours on the west coast to settle up with TNVC.
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My TAD is going back to Safran for diagnosis of that light stripe noted on the first page. Hopefully they can sort it out because no one can really seem to answer what it is.
100%. This may make me sound "poor", but for $6500, they better sort it no questions asked unless it's from obvious abuse (I am not implying it is, just stating that when you charge this much for a product, that shit better work, and work correctly, and if it's not the buyer's fault you better sort it fast.).
Has anyone had their TAD menu go bananas like an 80s arcade game on the fritz? Happened twice last night while using the menu; basically locked up the device and had to unscrew the battery cap to reset it.
Did an extended hike through the nature preserve by my house, pretty much ran every setting through its paces. Bouncing between High Contrast and Outline modes woeked pretty well, with Outline being most useful in the woods, and High Contrast in the open fields. Spotted quite a few stationary critters that I would never have seen with just NV and the bright gibbous moon last night. Anti Lag didn’t seem to do anything, but then I read in the manual that it’s a future feature not currently activated (why not just disable in UI, Safran?). Also the suggestion of mounting on non-dominant eye is the way to go.
Did an extended hike through the nature preserve by my house, pretty much ran every setting through its paces. Bouncing between High Contrast and Outline modes woeked pretty well, with Outline being most useful in the woods, and High Contrast in the open fields. Spotted quite a few stationary critters that I would never have seen with just NV and the bright gibbous moon last night. Anti Lag didn’t seem to do anything, but then I read in the manual that it’s a future feature not currently activated (why not just disable in UI, Safran?). Also the suggestion of mounting on non-dominant eye is the way to go.
Yes, I just held down the power button as I recall. It began flashing at maybe 20hz and was locked up.
Nothing "poor" about that statement. We are paying customers, throwing down the cost of a very well-kitted rifle for something that should work flawlessly from the first minute of use to many, many years down the line.
I ordered the SOK CUBA, Alamo Night Vision GDPC (for my DTNVS), TNVC Mohawk Mk1, 2x Voltaic V50 battery packs, USB plug protectors (for when the cables are not in use), a LEMO plug protector (for the same reason), a silicone USB-C blanking plug (for the unused battery pack ports), and a pair of 1" x 3" rubber caps (to kinda-sorta protect the battery pack from rain). Next up is some method to secure germanium sacrificial lenses to the TAD itself, which will be a DIY job.
Do it once, do it right, never think about it again. It's an expensive way to work, but damn if it isn't good for peace of mind. Especially since my setup is only used for force-on-force.
I make the CUBA for SOK, the battery cap on the TAD is not the same as the COTI's, I need to get a unit in hand for a few days to create a new cap. As yet, no one has offered to do so.
Excellent video, thank you! I've never liked outline mode because it looks so chaotic, but the TAD seems to have improved its function a great deal.
I'm your guy. Shoot me a PM and we'll get the ball rolling.
Seems I can't send yo a PM for some reason.
If you can live without your TAD for a few days, I'll get a cap printed up and give you a USB power cable system for it when I return it. Ship to
Cory Trapp
c/o Gunsite Academy, Inc.
2900 West Gunsite Road
Paulden, AZ 86334
Figured out the cap thread is in fact different enough that I need to have a device here to fit it.You said you were sending me a test cap and I said I was happy to help with this.
I am noticing the tiniest but of wobble between TAD and bracket. Very small, but it bothers me. All rail surfaces look fine. So, I do a fix.
Yeah, I'm not trying to come off as complaining or like "It has a problem". This can't be an interference fit. It's GOING to have some tiny bit of clearance. A bit of light tension from a bungee effects retention and solidifies it.
Mine snaps in very tight. In fact it’s so tight it wouldn’t snap into the PVS-15 side by about half a millimeter, so the bracket went back to Optics 1 also.
Just out of curiosity, was the wobble enough to cause misalignment of the projected thermal image over the I^2 image?
It seems like your TAD has been a real PITA. I hope they get you sorted out, and quickly.
I did some measuring for you. As best I can determine, image vs scene displacement is a maximum of 5" at 20m distance. Its literally nothing. I just hate wiggles and jiggles.
Also of note, in high contrast mode I could track a 50# short hair dog at 140m or so. Beyond that he got faint. Switching to outline mode be was strongly visible out to 175m when he went into brush. I was in Arctic with a brightness of 12. Arctic is least sensitive. Several minute old barefoot on wood deck footprints will show up inbfull thermal in Urban mode. I'm beginning to see that the modes etc really enhance capabilities vs "this one certain tweak setup is all!"
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My SN would indicate it was probably in the first 10 or fewer production devices. Hopefully it's just new product jitters. I will say TNVC and Safran have both been quite responsive.
I just thought it was wild that it would detect footprints on wet grass after a minute.
So I have been reading this whole thread.
IMHO I do not want to see ANY thermal image projected into my NV scene until it is some kind of live critter. I have never touched an E-Coti or TAD. But I have a lot of time under the PAS 29 Coti.
The "trick" for lack of a better word to making these devices perform correctly (depending on your definition of correctly) lies in correctly adjusting the settings.
For me, I run strictly in White Outline. The Pas 29 Coti has two places you adjust GAIN. So early in the evening when emissivity is high and everything is pretty high you run the first GAIN down to where you see nothing but live critters. Then you have to go over into the MAX GAIN menu and set it about 2 points over the first GAIN setting. That way you have "locked" in the specific temperature you are looking for.
As the night progresses (say 1/3 of the night), emissivity temperatures will change so after a few hours into the night, you likely need to re-adjust your settings. When you hit 2/3 rds into the night you will likely need to re-adjust again.
So per my reading about the TAD it seems that only "PRESET" Gain adjustments are available. "Arctic" "Urban" etc etc. If this is the case and you cannot incrementally fine tune adjust GAIN settings, I would expect that to be a negative. The PAS 29 has first GAIN menu settings to 16 and MAX Gain settings to 64 which gives you an outstanding range of adjustment that will allow you to adjust the device accordingly to pretty much "pop" only on live critters.
Now for me, I only want a COTI device to be a (full time working) early warning system that tells me a live critter is there that I need to invesigate further with NV & IR or much more powerful hand held or weapon mounted thermal. It is only one tool in the tool box and I am not expecting a COTI to give me any great PID especially at distance.
The PAS 29 COTI does what I want and expect it to do, such that I have never had a desire to upgrade to any of these newer iterations as I have not found them (via forums, video's etc) to offer me any significant increase in "real" performance to justify the upgrade.
But all I am wanting is a zero thermal scene in my NV view until the thermal encounters a live critter and when it does I want that shown in only White Outline so I still have a basically unadulterated NV image. Your milage may very.
Yep, that's a solid observation. The E-COTI basically has those parameters: Max Gain, Gain, Offset, along with presets that are just those latter two parameters pre-defined. And yes, the TAD basically removes those and just gives you presets, which kind of makes sense if you're going to be simplifying the E-COTI and reducing the cost by roughly 30%. You can still control brightness, but you don't have the fine tuning of the E-COTI and its predecessor. That being said, I really struggled with the E-COTI to get to where it worked as I had hoped, but it sounds like you cracked the code, so to speak. After reading the above post, it makes a whole hell of a lot of sense that you need to tweak the values over the night as the environment shifts. I have enough of a background in image processing that I just kind of expected an easier to control, more procedural approach to controlling the thermal overlay.
Perhaps in the future we'll see a device that lets you just set a min/max thermal value in either absolute or relative mode. That and given that there are a LOT of different hardware/software based signal denoising systems these days that it wouldn't be that hard to add a Threshold parameter to filter them out.
Perhaps in the future we'll see a device that lets you just set a min/max thermal value in either absolute or relative mode. That and given that there are a LOT of different hardware/software based signal denoising systems these days that it wouldn't be that hard to add a Threshold parameter to filter them out.
So the FAN - CEE Manuals that came with the Pas 29 Coti, did not give you any real pointers on how to correctly set up nor run the unit. You had to figure that out on your own. Thank the Lord above he has given me some ability to have an inquisitive mind that is prone to understanding and figuring out some things. Still aint figured them womens out yet.
I really don't buy into it reduced the cost of the TAD by not including and allowing incremental user GAIN adjustment. That is/was a already pioneered and developed software item that has been understood for around 17 years now in the Optics 1 Safran world.
Methinks that is just some usual "Engineers" gonna change some "shit" up so its a "new product" and we can charge the "shit" out of you for the "new" best latest greatest slice of bread. Meanwhile the "Engineers" hat doesnt understand the real world "usage" hat of the device.
For a $6,500 price tag, I'd be screeming at Optics 1 to rewrite a software update that included incremental user adjustment of the Gain. Should be a hop skip and jump for them.
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Well, TNVC has stated that the motivation for getting Optics 1 to make the TAD was to make a simplified E-COTI without the stuff non-mil users wouldn't be able to use anyway (ex ATAK integration). But from a commercial point of view, and we see this all the time in other industries, it kind of makes sense that the TAD would also have reduced controls. If the TAD only lacked ATAK and data/power port, that would probably eat into E-COTI sales significantly, so they limited the image overlay controls. That makes the E-COTI still worth it to some people vs "why the hell would I want to spend so much more just for a data/power port?" Having used both though, it does feel like they made some slight improvements in the Outline mode function - feels cleaner and faster than the E-COTI.
On the manual, yeah, it's typical mil-style manual with descriptions of what things do, but not much in the way of tutorials or tips/tricks. Just dry, minimalist info.
On the manual, yeah, it's typical mil-style manual with descriptions of what things do, but not much in the way of tutorials or tips/tricks. Just dry, minimalist info.
The sad reality to me is that I would bet a dollar to a donut that the old PAS 29 vs the TAD is likely a more effective tool in the real world situation you would really need it in that it was designed to do. Point being, for me, that COTI better not "pop" in my NV with anything but a live something.
Looking at thermal clutter and false positives all night will get you "Kilt In The Streetz" because you become complacent at looking at all that crap 24/7 in your NV image.
Having thermal clutter and false positives pinging in your NV scene 24/7 is likely what leads to many people getting rid of their COTI.
It never was designed to perform like a handheld thermal and if that is what people are expecting it likely will be a disappoint to the user.
Looking at thermal clutter and false positives all night will get you "Kilt In The Streetz" because you become complacent at looking at all that crap 24/7 in your NV image.
Having thermal clutter and false positives pinging in your NV scene 24/7 is likely what leads to many people getting rid of their COTI.
It never was designed to perform like a handheld thermal and if that is what people are expecting it likely will be a disappoint to the user.
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