Sub-2500$ USED USED USED

Jadejade13 · Aug 26, 2024

What’s the general opinion on the best optic you can “typically find” for under 2500$. We are NOT talking MSRP. Not from a dealer. But if you hop in a buy/sell/trade page, or a classified section: a scope you can usually see for under 2500$ pretty regularly.

Kahles 525i
NF ATACR
MK5
Gen 3 razor
XTR pro
XTR3
NX8
???Others????

Not interested in the “save a little more money” and get a way over 2500$ scopes. Cause yes, I’d get a S&B, tangent theta, or a zero comp. That’s not what I’m looking for.

Under 2500$, typically found in a used market. What’s the best.

Considering price, quality, warranty transfer, warranty in general (vortex the best?) Mount options, Etc. Let’s see your opinions. Feel ALOT of people wanna see this thread.

BuildingConceptsllc · Aug 26, 2024

You can get a Kahles DLR for that at times and it's easily the best for that money.

oldrifleman · Aug 26, 2024

ATCAR, gen 3 in that order

Covertnoob5 · Aug 26, 2024

R3……DLR/ATACR. The 525 ATACR is mid at best. The 735 normally won’t go for $2500 unless it’s a less desirable reticle. The DLR once in awhile will get that low. R3 pretty common under $2500.
Regardless of anything it’s in that order.

FuhQ · Aug 27, 2024

Kahles K525i

DarinC · Aug 27, 2024

Zeiss s3.

Jadejade13 · Aug 27, 2024

BuildingConceptsllc said:
You can get a Kahles DLR for that at times and it's easily the best for that money.

Defiantly interested in the DLR

diggler1833 · Aug 27, 2024

What is the intended purpose of the optic?

I own a 7-35 ATACR, G3 Razor, XTR Pro, 5.5-30 XTR III, and have 4 months behind a 5-25 S&B PMII as well as have a loaner LRP S3 4-25 in hand.

If you can find a used 5-25 PMII, 525i, ATACR, or G3 Razor for under $2,500, I'd go that route. My ATACR and G3 are pretty close in everything that I've put them up against each other so far. I once considered the G3 Razor a best buy at $2,500, but the prices have now gone up to where they are trying to enter another tier. Unfortunately, I have the least experience at this point with my ATACR. I can't say that I would pay full retail for one (I didn't for mine).

The LRP S3 is less than that new, and if you wanted a new scope for $1,900 - 2,300 (depending on discounts etc...) I'd say that the LRP S3 is going to offer you more than the Burris or Leupold options for your budget range. It is not equal to the G3 or ATACR in the ever-subjective "glass" category, but it is close. My biggest bitch about the S3 is the LotuTech or T-Star (whichever is reddish) coating during that first/last hour of hunting light. Unless you are in a covered area where the sun can't come up behind you, you will end up with a red glow all around the outside of your image. I so desperately wanted to get the 4-25 that I'm looking at right now, but for the intended purpose I need that scope for (animal control), I can't use it. During normal daylight this is a non-issue and the glass is fantastic.

IMO the XTR Pro is a hell of a scope for $1,500, and there were several sales that brought the price down to that range. I do not think that it is a $2K+ scope though... it can compete with $2K scopes in resolution, but the contrast not so much and definitely not in mechanical performance (turret/magnification/parallax feel). I paid $1,400 for mine, and don't feel bad at all for what I got. Likewise, I paid $1,100 for my non-illuminated XTR III when the Pro was announced and I feel like I got a lot for my money's worth on that. Full disclosure though, my Pro had to go back to Greeley once when the elevation mechanism crapped out on me. My CS experience was good however.

No real experience with the Mk5 or NX8 other than a few minutes looking trough them.

Just my feelings, and the next guy will probably feel different.

NHPiper · Aug 27, 2024

Lots of S&B PMII 5-25 for the $2000-2400 range with an H59, T3, or similar reticle. There are newer scopes out there but the glass is good. If you snag the right deal you can snag one with rings or a mount for $2200 or $2300.

BuildingConceptsllc · Aug 27, 2024

Jadejade13 said:
Defiantly interested in the DLR

I bought one for 2550. It was supposed to be 2500 but dude said "he didn't see my offer was 2500 instead of 2550 like he said, and then said I tried to trick him so I just gave the guy another 50 and paid 2550 for it. It's a really good scope and I'm happy with it. If you can find a DLR for that money I'd jump all over it. Great scope. I love my ZCO's but that DLR is right there and the parallax adjustment ergos is way better.

264win · Aug 27, 2024

My choice would be a toss up between a S&B pm11 and ZEISS s3 6-36.

D_TROS · Aug 27, 2024

MINOX hits pretty hard in that price range. Steiners M7, Kahles and S&B fall into there quite often.

If you want best bang for the buck those are the only ones to consider. Be patient and get the retic you want.

GL
DT

roostercogburn98 · Aug 27, 2024

There is a nice Minox in the px right now for your price range

Detroit_1 · Aug 27, 2024

To me the reticle is a big part of it. Might be a great price on great glass, but if I don't like the reticle I am not interested.

Warranty - (within reason) I think there is a lot of concern about this, and while everything eventually does crap out - I think if a person takes reasonable care of their high quality gear, it tends to work for a very long time. For 20 yrs mine have either been on the floor board, or muzzle down against the center consul and passenger seat while running around in the hills. I have only had to send one back for work. True story, my 5-25 PM2 fell off a table on to concrete. It bent the AL on the objective just enough to prevent using a shade / ARD - but that 10 yrs ago and no other issues. I think in general any high quality optic is fairly sturdy.

Things to consider rolling the dice on - Premier Heritage. The deal with them is you pretty much have to use Badger Rings. You can use their pre-C 1 mounts too. The parallax can bind. (Independently verify) IIRC you can send your PH into TT and they will confirm that the 'fix' for the PH was done - which really means you can use it in Badger rings. I, like my PH more than my TT - FWIW.

S&B (used to / confirm on your own) have a 20 yr warranty on their PM2s. I think the 3-12x50 is just a great all around optic in both form and power and really lends itself well to a wide variety of rifles.

Without a doubt, a 1-4 Short Dot with CQB Ret and locking turrets.

IMHO

Jadejade13 · Aug 27, 2024

awesome write ups guys. Keep them coming. I for sure like the specs and reviews on the DLR. but I see a lot of people say good things about the Zeiss and the steiners.

By the way, intended use is maybe a PRS match here or there. Maybe end up smacking a coyote or hog from time to time at distance. Maybe try to stretch out to a mile at some point just for fun. Just a good all around quality built rifle to do some of everything.

Rifle is a terminus zues quick change, PVA 7.5 twist barrel in 6.5CM, in a MPA matrix pro.

BCP · Aug 27, 2024

Jadejade13 said:
What’s the general opinion on the best optic you can “typically find” for under 2500$. We are NOT talking MSRP. Not from a dealer. But if you hop in a buy/sell/trade page, or a classified section: a scope you can usually see for under 2500$ pretty regularly.

Kahles 525i
NF ATACR
MK5
Gen 3 razor
XTR pro
XTR3
NX8
???Others????

Not interested in the “save a little more money” and get a way over 2500$ scopes. Cause yes, I’d get a S&B, tangent theta, or a zero comp. That’s not what I’m looking for.

Under 2500$, typically found in a used market. What’s the best.

Considering price, quality, warranty transfer, warranty in general (vortex the best?) Mount options, Etc. Let’s see your opinions. Feel ALOT of people wanna see this thread.

They're all good

On an AR I'd go with the leupold for weight savings

Bolt 308 I'd look for a PM2 3-12X I really like those scopes on a 308 rifle

Higher magnification the new zeiss look really nice

You could also get a leupold 4HD and save some money, it gives up very little to the 5HD

Jadejade13 · Aug 28, 2024

BCP said:
They're all good

On an AR I'd go with the leupold for weight savings

Bolt 308 I'd look for a PM2 3-12X I really like those scopes on a 308 rifle

Higher magnification the new zeiss look really nice

You could also get a leupold 4HD and save some money, it gives up very little to the 5HD

By the way, intended use is maybe a PRS match here or there. Maybe end up smacking a coyote or hog from time to time at distance. Maybe try to stretch out to a mile at some point just for fun. Just a good all around quality built rifle to do some of everything.

Rifle is a terminus zues quick change, PVA 7.5 twist barrel in 6.5CM, in a MPA matrix pro.

Rob01 · Aug 28, 2024

Get a Zeiss S3 for new for less than your $2500 limit and spend the rest on ammo. Either the 4-25 or 6-36 should work for your use.

3rdfocal · Aug 28, 2024

Razor.

R_A_W · Aug 28, 2024

For PRS, you’re most likely to get the best deal on an either the G3R or LRP S3. They’re both great, I’d just pick whichever reticle you like more. EBR-7D is one of my favorite trees, so I’m running that

I have a 735 ATACR, but haven’t put it back on my PRS gun for 2 main reasons. 1) NF zero clutch thing (call me lazy) and 2) although the 735 ATACR glass is better, it has a noticeably shorter DOF that will more than cancel out the marginally better image quality if you’re shooting a stage w/ 300 then 900 yd targets & don’t dial out parallax/refocus. G3R is pretty much dial to 450-500 & forget it for the day.

To muddy the waters, for a dedicated 1 mile gun or hunting rifle, I probably would take the 735 ATACR…

Rob01 · Aug 28, 2024

The 4-25 S3 has 46.5 mils of elevation so a mile would be easily dialed and 25x is more than enough for a mile. The reticle is also great for matches and the illumination is bright for hunting.

R_A_W · Aug 28, 2024

ATACR outperforms in heavy mirage & poor lighting conditions though, enough to make me select it for those 2 specific use cases

diggler1833 · Aug 28, 2024

I liked the 4-25 S3 I was testing out so much, I made an offer on it and am in the process of sending the extremely nice gentleman payment instead of his scope back.

Have had it next to my 7-35 ATACR and G3 Razor, I don't think that they are so close that you wouldn't notice the difference if jumping from one to the other. Functionally, I think that the S3 is going to make a lot of dudes happy for what it costs though. The contrast that I see in mine is better than the other scopes Ive looked through in the ~$2K price range.

However, every time the sun is at my back (and front to a lesser extent), the last 60 minutes of daylight I see this below (not my photo... obviously it happens to more guys than just me).

^^That reflection of the LotuTech or T-Star coating gives off a pretty serious reddish tint, and really detracts from the experience that you get otherwise during broad daylight or better angles. You can reduce or eliminate it by shooting from a covered position...but it is a point that dudes who hunt out in the open need to be aware of. I wouldn't consider this an issue for daylight PRS guys though.

If I could have a new S3, or for just a couple hundred more a LNIB G3R, I'd take the G3R. If you can score a pristine ATACR, PMII, or perhaps K525i (I have zero experience with that one) for $2,500...then that is the route I'd recommend more than the G3R.

BCP · Aug 28, 2024

Jadejade13 said:
By the way, intended use is maybe a PRS match here or there. Maybe end up smacking a coyote or hog from time to time at distance. Maybe try to stretch out to a mile at some point just for fun. Just a good all around quality built rifle to do some of everything.

Rifle is a terminus zues quick change, PVA 7.5 twist barrel in 6.5CM, in a MPA matrix pro.

Like New Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x56mm .1 MRAD FFP ZF-MRi #16 Riflescope 522695-9916-090

FREE SHIPPING on Like New Zeiss LRP S3 6-36x56mm .1 MRAD FFP ZF-MRi #16 Riflescope 522695-9916-090

www.eurooptic.com

Maybe this?

BCP · Aug 28, 2024

diggler1833 said:
^^That reflection of the LotuTech or T-Star coating gives off a pretty serious reddish tint, and really detracts from the experience that you get otherwise during broad daylight or better angles.

I'm pretty sure that red tint is to increase contrast

Lots of euro scopes seem to do this, or they used to, I think my meopta has a red bias whereas my leupold has a green bias

Jadejade13 · Aug 28, 2024

You guys are making a very solid case for the s3. Not sure the reddish coating/reflection would really bother me all that much. And its price point is VERY attractive for the amount of scope you’re getting. Appreciate all the input guys! Keep it coming. Any others to look at?

diggler1833 · Aug 28, 2024

BCP said:
I'm pretty sure that red tint is to increase contrast

Lots of euro scopes seem to do this, or they used to, I think my meopta has a red bias whereas my leupold has a green bias

You very well may be right. It just "blooms" like crazy with the sun behind you. I'm sure that I'm missing the correct terminology. Either way, it wasn't enough to keep me from wanting the scope to put on my bolt gun that I use most often for killing stuff. Fortunately the reticle is dark and thick...so it just blows right through it.

Charger442 · Aug 28, 2024

5-25 pmII is hard to beat in the $2300-2400 range used

Jadejade13 · Aug 28, 2024

I’m very supprised I’m not seeing more guys saying to grab a MK5. Any input on that? Just simply that there is better out there for the money?

R_A_W · Aug 28, 2024

@ full retail, yes there are better scopes, but Mk5s are still pretty good IMO. You also see surprisingly few sold through the PX, given their ubiquity

I'm not a huge fan of the PR2 & I'd never pay anywhere near retail

usafa77 · Aug 28, 2024

Got an LRp S3. 4-25 up in the px. Great scope . The only reason im selling it is the magnification turns the opposite direction of my ZCO’s and it’s driving me batty! I know first world problems here on the hide.

diggler1833 · Aug 28, 2024

Jadejade13 said:
I’m very supprised I’m not seeing more guys saying to grab a MK5. Any input on that? Just simply that there is better out there for the money?

For $2,500 yes.

If you qualify for their VIP program, you can get a lot for the money. Great news though, when I looked online yesterday at Mk5s they were all out of stock (still) for every model. I've only seen two available in the past month.

*edited to add that I was looking at Leupold's site...plenty available through various online retailers.

FuhQ · Aug 28, 2024

Jadejade13 said:
I’m very supprised I’m not seeing more guys saying to grab a MK5. Any input on that? Just simply that there is better out there for the money?

Leupold are fudd scopes. WAY better out there for the money.

R_A_W · Aug 28, 2024

usafa77 said:
The only reason im selling it is the magnification turns the opposite direction of my ZCO’s and it’s driving me batty! I know first world problems here on the hide.

XTR3s are backwards too, used to drive me mad

carbonbased · Aug 28, 2024

usafa77 said:
The only reason im selling it is the magnification turns the opposite direction of my ZCO’s and it’s driving me batty! I know first world problems here on the hide.

I am not too bothered by opposite mag ring rotation (PM II vs Vortex/NF), but the parallax focus knob…I dunno. Haven’t faced that but I suspect THAT would constantly piss me off.

FuhQ · Aug 29, 2024

carbonbased said:
I am not too bothered by opposite mag ring rotation (PM II vs Vortex/NF), but the parallax focus knob…I dunno. Haven’t faced that but I suspect THAT would constantly piss me off.

Once you start using the parallax on a Kahles, you really won’t want to go back to a side knob… Trust me, I was skeptical at first, but once you realize that parallax and dialing are synonymous, you only have to make the 1 arm movement up top to adjust both the parallax and then dial your elevation at the same time. It’s stupid fast and precise. Their parallax adjustments are nearly dead-on, too.

rothgyr · Aug 29, 2024

I'll add US Optics Foundation JVCR to the list. Street price is under $2k. Don't get any of their trash reticles though. Someone was smoking some poor quality weed with lead dust mixed in when the designed the MPR and MGR. Ordering with one of those is like buying a Raptor, but asking for the dealership to install a lawn mower engine in it before selling it to you.

Jadejade13 said:
I’m very supprised I’m not seeing more guys saying to grab a MK5. Any input on that? Just simply that there is better out there for the money?

MK5 is a great $1200 scope masquerading as a $2500 optic. FOV is small, doesn't come illuminated unless you tack on $500, etc. Short answer is yes, "There is better out there for the money".

carbonbased · Aug 29, 2024

FuhQ said:
Once you start using the parallax on a Kahles, you really won’t want to go back to a side knob… Trust me, I was skeptical at first, but once you realize that parallax and dialing are synonymous, you only have to make the 1 arm movement up top to adjust both the parallax and then dial your elevation at the same time. It’s stupid fast and precise. Their parallax adjustments are nearly dead-on, too.

Oh yeah, I wasn’t even referring to the Kahles, whoops. Didn’t mean to infer that I was, sorry.

I was talking more about other traditional-layout scopes. Some have focus knobs that go from near-far CW, and some do near-far CCW. I’m used to the latter, and switching to CW with just some scopes would eff me up (I think).

Unless I made a wholesale-all-scopes switch.

If you are a dialer, having just one spot to get all of your adjustments done would be nice. I’m not a dialer.

Also not ready to forgive Swaro/Kahles for #FOVgate.

See following links about #FOVgate
The discovery of the patent issue; read from this point on

Rifle Scopes - New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

wait what? LOL Here’s the write up: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tangent-theta-7-35-x-56-new-hotness-in-hand.7179959/

www.snipershide.com

(TL;DR Swaro is an asshat patent-troll; Swaro also owns Kahles)

@koshkin ’s breakdown of the issue in a video

Rifle Scopes - New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

I’d like to know why a Euro spec 6-36 has 17.74% more FOV than the US spec and then I’d like a 17.74% refund.

www.snipershide.com

Misc background

FOV issues and patents

I realize this has been discussed in some detail but this isn’t necessarily about the absurd, imo, patent by a certain company. This is about other companies adhering to it but not giving a disclaimer to potential buyers. So say I buy a new Schmidt, a zeiss v8, a tt, or some other 3-5k optic...

www.snipershide.com

My joke

Edit: I’d imagine the March 4.5-28, with its massive FOV and who ignored Swaro’s patent, would be a decent replacement scope for those also irritated by Swaro. Not as low of mag, but most here don’t need that. The Asian scope makers have largely ignored the patent.

BCP · Aug 29, 2024

rothgyr said:
I'll add US Optics Foundation JVCR to the list. Street price is under $2k. Don't get any of their trash reticles though. Someone was smoking some poor quality weed with lead dust mixed in when the designed the MPR and MGR. Ordering with one of those is like buying a Raptor, but asking for the dealership to install a lawn mower engine in it before selling it to you.

MK5 is a great $1200 scope masquerading as a $2500 optic. FOV is small, doesn't come illuminated unless you tack on $500, etc. Short answer is yes, "There is better out there for the money".

The short stubby form factor of the 3-18X mk5/6 is great but wouldn't pay more than 12-1500 for a used one. The 4HD are a good value though. The 2.5-10 ones I bought are decent mechanically and optically. My only gripe is that the turrets aren't complely retard proof, it's possible for a low IQ person to accidentally turn them past the locking feature with enough stupid muscle.

FuhQ · Aug 29, 2024

carbonbased said:
Oh yeah, I wasn’t even referring to the Kahles, whoops. Didn’t mean to infer that I was, sorry.

I was talking more about other traditional-layout scopes. Some have focus knobs that go from near-far CW, and some do near-far CCW. I’m used to the latter, and switching to CW with just some scopes would eff me up (I think).

Unless I made a wholesale-all-scopes switch.

If you are a dialer, having just one spot to get all of your adjustments done would be nice. I’m not a dialer.

Also not ready to forgive Swaro/Kahles for #FOVgate.

See following links about #FOVgate
The discovery of the patent issue (TL;DR Swaro is an asshat patent-troll, Swaro also owns Kahles)

Rifle Scopes - New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

wait what? LOL Here’s the write up: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tangent-theta-7-35-x-56-new-hotness-in-hand.7179959/

www.snipershide.com

@koshkin ’s breakdown of the issue in a video

Rifle Scopes - New Schmidt & Bender PM2 6-36x56

I’d like to know why a Euro spec 6-36 has 17.74% more FOV than the US spec and then I’d like a 17.74% refund.

www.snipershide.com

Misc background

FOV issues and patents

I realize this has been discussed in some detail but this isn’t necessarily about the absurd, imo, patent by a certain company. This is about other companies adhering to it but not giving a disclaimer to potential buyers. So say I buy a new Schmidt, a zeiss v8, a tt, or some other 3-5k optic...

www.snipershide.com

My joke
View attachment 8490202

I know all about that, still think it’s overblown and people are just hunting for something to bitch about now that they realize their glass is no longer sub-par, and easily within its price range. I also found it hilarious that the people praising Swaro and damning Kahles had no idea they were both owned by Swaro and the glass is made in the same factory in Austria, on the same tools, using the same materials. Then suddenly it’s, “Buh…Buh…Buh…Muh Swaro is still better…”

YotaEer · Aug 29, 2024

I've had them all and of those choices, I'd take the Gen 3 razor

However, I would add the Element Theos and pick it over the Gen 3 when factoring in all features and weight.
The Theos has been the best scope I have owned so far (I haven't tried a ZCO or TT, yet)

carbonbased · Aug 29, 2024

FuhQ said:
I know all about that, still think it’s overblown and people are just hunting for something to bitch about now that they realize their glass is no longer sub-par, and easily within its price range. I also found it hilarious that the people praising Swaro and damning Kahles had no idea they were both owned by Swaro and the glass is made in the same factory in Austria, on the same tools, using the same materials. Then suddenly it’s, “Buh…Buh…Buh…Muh Swaro is still better…”

Oh yeah, figured you’d know. Just throwing that out there for those who didn’t.

For comparison for those on the fence (not directed at you FuhQ), the March 4.5-28 has:

All locking turrets (translating for those who care) vs. Kahles’ freely rotating dial Twist Guard windage only (non-translating)
at 28x a FOV of 4.67ft @ 100yds (1.56m @ 100m) vs Kahles’ 5.4ft @ 100yds (1.8m @ 100m)
34mm tube vs Kahles’ 36mm
Weight of 29.8oz vs. Kahles’ 36.7oz
10yd min focus vs. Kahles’ 20m/21.9yds
March is a lot shorter 12.5” vs. 14.2” (don’t care)

I don’t like to reward asshat lawfare, and I have other choices.

If I went with the March I have my preferred all-locking turrets, very very close to as wide of FOV from 4.5-28x, get to keep my stock of 34mm mounts, a lighter scope appropriate for a wider range of applications, and a shorter focus distance.

I imagine the Kahles will be better in low light, has a better illumination interface (I’m not a user of illum, really), an interesting parallax method plus options where windage knob is at (rt or left), a fast focus eyepiece (not sure how March works), maybe deeper DOF, and hell, it’s German. That’s always cool.

I’m quite sure I’ve forgotten to include important comparisons between the two scopes and to include other appropriate scopes in the mix. But there you go.

carbonbased · Aug 29, 2024

Oh yeah, how could I forget about reticles?

Greatly prefer the March’s FML-TR1, which uses dots vs. lines in the tree. Very personal pref, of course.

Both scopes are available with 10mil turrets.

Edit: just realized I was posting this in the “Sub-2500$ USED” thread. I’m an idiot! Someone thought this was the Kahles 3.5-28x thread lol. Sigh.

Rob01 · Aug 29, 2024

Another good scope that is not in the $2000+ range but close to it in performance is the Tract Toric ELR 4-25x50. It also has 47 mils of elevation so those mile shots are easy. It also has an excellent reticle for matches. If you are LE/Mil/Vet you can save a good amount too. The list price is $1494. I have one on my 6.5 Creedmoor match rifle and like it. I had the 4.5-30x but like the 4-25x better. Below is what it would look like on a rifle with similar specs to yours.

TORIC UHD 4-25X50 34mm MRAD ELR FFP Rifle Scope

This long range rifle scope is specifically designed for the shooter looking to maximize the performance of his cartridge.

tractoptics.com

diggler1833 · Aug 29, 2024

Rob01 said:
Another good scope that is not in the $2000+ range but close to it in performance is the Tract Toric ELR 4-25x50. It also has 47 mils of elevation so those mile shots are easy. It also has an excellent reticle for matches. If you are LE/Mil/Vet you can save a good amount too. The list price is $1494. I have one on my 6.5 Creedmoor match rifle and like it. I had the 4.5-30x but like the 4-25x better. Below is what it would look like on a rifle with similar specs to yours.

TORIC UHD 4-25X50 34mm MRAD ELR FFP Rifle Scope

This long range rifle scope is specifically designed for the shooter looking to maximize the performance of his cartridge.

tractoptics.com

View attachment 8490248

How close are you noticing (not glass, but mechanics) the Tract is to the S3? They certainly present similarly on paper.

diggler1833 · Aug 29, 2024

carbonbased said:
Oh yeah, how could I forget about reticles?

Greatly prefer the March’s FML-TR1, which uses dots vs. lines in the tree. Very personal pref, of course.

Both scopes are available with 10mil turrets.

Edit: just realized I was posting this in the “Sub-2500$ USED” thread. I’m an idiot! Someone thought this was the Kahles 3.5-28x thread lol. Sigh.

If you have a 3.5-28 Kahles to sell me for $2,500, I'll take you up on it and then we can include it in the discussion here.

carbonbased · Aug 29, 2024

diggler1833 said:
If you have a 3.5-28 Kahles to sell me for $2,500, I'll take you up on it and then we can include it in the discussion here.

Did you see the last bit of the text you quoted?

R_A_W · Aug 30, 2024

carbonbased said:
Swaro is an asshat patent-troll

Swaro receiving a patent in 2006 for their novel and non-obvious invention and then disallowing competitors the use of their invention doesn't make them a patent troll. Right to exclude is like... the whole point

carbonbased · Aug 30, 2024

R_A_W said:
Swaro receiving a patent in 2006 for their novel and non-obvious invention and then disallowing competitors the use of their invention doesn't make them a patent troll. Right to exclude is like... the whole point

Have a gander at @koshkin ‘s vid that I linked above. He is of the opposite opinion about the validity of that patent.

IIRC he says the patent basically, uh, patents a set of scope specifications. Like, “I hereby patent a riflescope with a zoom ratio >5x and FOV >25.5°” (all made up numbers).

Apparently the patent lacks the all-important “novel and non-obvious invention” bits.

Leica fought the patent and won in Europe, but lost in the UK. No one has challenged it in the US; one hypothesis being that Swaro only cares about EU hunters and competitor German scope makers. Another hypothesis is patent litigation is expensive, risky, and the payoff may be marginal.

Vortex (I believe) and March and maybe other Asian-made scope manufacturers are completely ignoring the patent and are building infringing scopes (pretty sure Razor G3 is one). Is Swaro doing anything about this heinous patent infringement? No.

Why? Either they don’t care about non-German manufacturers as they view them as not in the same market or they know that their patent is very weak. Maybe both.

Now I may be wrong. I’m not a patent lawyer.

I believe in the patent system. Without it we’d have little innovation. I am not that guy who bitches that we can’t have cheap stuff due to some company having a patent. I buy RRS stuff and sometimes yell at others for buying RRS-patent infringing Leofoto/Sunway ballheads etc.

But the patent system can and has been abused in the past.

If @koshkin is correct, it sure seems like that Swaro patent isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. He is irritated enough to refuse to review any Swaro or Kahles product indefinitely.

diggler1833 · Aug 30, 2024

carbonbased said:
Did you see the last bit of the text you quoted?

Yes, that's why I wasn't being serious. Hard to convey humor without using emojis like a 13 year old.

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