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Back in the day for 6 plus years there was no other caliber but 308 used, I can tell you the first person to show up with a 65, the first guy to try a 6mm (he used a 243)
We did all this with a 308 for years
I saw the same thing in Sporting Clays. I traveled the SE competing. Shooting partner shot his best score with Remington 1100 - he HAD to have a Kreighoff. He CHOSE to spend all that money on $$ over/under. Saw the same thing in USPSA - buddy wanted to compete and Production was available - I begged him to run a Glock34 for a season - went to first match and saw the Open Race Guns - he HAD to have one. His choice.Because they are told they are stupid or wasting their time using a 308, the culture of the PRS aint anything but an MPA in 6mm, if the entire field is telling that won't work, you'll never have participation
This is a dumb argument, they do everything to prevent you from participating with off the shelf stuff, and then use the lack of support as evidence it doesn't work, but when someone tries it, they are pushed off to the side.
When a 308 guy shows up and the Open guy shooting the 308 has a 26LBS gun with a 28"+ barrel are you coming back ? What are the rules that balance the field ?
I like that combination, you should teach people about it,I am going to load some gamer 25x47 for my PRS match I look forward to attending this weekend.
Due to the lethalness of bullets and the risk of any type of negligent/accidental discharge makes this extremely difficult to bring in spectators, hence my bass fishing model. The vast majority of of spectators are watching it on a screen. Your air rifle reference makes sense as it can be done indoors at short distance. And would probably easier to monetize vs. PRS/long distance rim fire. 22 may be doable but there's still the risk of injury or death for onsite spectators. I like the golf analogy because it's actually quite similar to long range PRS type shooting but the lack of access to shooting long distance vs. golf is a huge barrier to get spectator excited about watching and then getting involved. i.e. buying sponsor's products. You may be able to approach it much like the outdoor hunting shows which has proven to be lucrative for sponsors/manufactures.Lack of Spectators,
I was at the IPRF, the only media was Shooter Mindset... there are no choices for media
The Owners of the PRS have new houses that are bigger than yours, new $100k+ Cars for everyone, Huge Boats and Fancy Hunts and Vacations, sorry the money is tight
You usually have to start off paying for media to prove it's worth, after that it pays you... none of that happned
Air Rifle is on TV, I saw one from Utah Air doing a mini competition in a warehouse, even NBC sports shows air rifle, but you have to pitch them, they don't show up with money at your door
Due to the lethalness of bullets and the risk of any type of negligent/accidental discharge makes this extremely difficult to bring in spectators, hence my bass fishing model. The vast majority of of spectators are watching it on a screen. Your air rifle reference makes sense as it can be done indoors at short distance. And would probably easier to monetize vs. PRS/long distance rim fire. 22 may be doable but there's still the risk of injury or death for onsite spectators. I like the golf analogy because it's actually quite similar to long range PRS type shooting but the lack of access to shooting long distance vs. golf is a huge barrier to get spectator excited about watching and then getting involved. i.e. buying sponsor's products. You may be able to approach it much like the outdoor hunting shows which has proven to be lucrative for sponsors/manufactures.
Frank,Sure there are more than 300 total, but most of those numbers are 1 or two matches only never really Ranking
Keith Baker shot 35 matches, he is sponsored, but also, you are competing against him 1-1, 10+ match people a year... are competiing again 1 or 2 match a year people
Please stop with the stage design limitations... that is weak, lacking of imagination
You can combine stages, use two slots for one, you can still move them forward more than 3 steps, you can still create lists and challenges, use the Rifles Only KD (square range) area the same as the open spaces and honestly if you range can't meet the requirements why have it run a centerfire match ? Do we need 38 places do the exact same thing ?
I could fix a square range in a minute, regardless of the hate and the shoot the messenger BS the SHC still ranks as some of the best matches. SHC was going from 2002 to 2021, we never had the complaints like this
It's funny, people like doing boring shit every week cause it gets them out, but once you say it could be done better, the excuses start to flow
I'm not making a new league, but it doesn't require one, it only requires one MD to think outside the box.
actually talked to a few people/MD's at length about this over drinks and dinner this past year
here are the numbers for PRS pro series, open division
- people that
1. are a member
2. shot a pro series match
3. have at least 1 point
2024 - 979
2023 - 953
2022 - 878
what's driving the PRS growth is mainly the rimfire side, not centerfire
PRS is an incredibly expensive sport, numbers will go down as the economy goes down, the decline is actually a lot smaller than i would expect in an economic downturn.
I used to consider local PRS matches low hanging fruit. I no longer consider them that, nor attend.
If the match doesn't have the following, or a combination of the following, it is not worth my thoughts, time, commitment, nor money.
1.) UKD - Find, Range, Engage
2.) Blind stages
3.) Pistol
4.) Some stressor / KIMs game / physical exertion
5.) Time plus scoring system
6.) Team Match - Primary / Secondary Shooter
7.) Gas Gun - SPR / DMR type matches
John at Steel City, Adam and Matt with Chaos Concepts, and Dan at Colemans Creek have done a great job setting up these type formats. Ben Franklin Range, Dark Corner Concepts (Real World Sniper), and others have similar matches, but I have not had the opportunity to attend.
Guardian used to have several Team Matches, but they have dropped the pistol & find/range/engage and gone back to their more traditional Guardian format with individual on Saturday and fold the field for a team match on Sunday. I have stopped shooting these matches, even though they are still for a great cause.
NRL Hunter is my low hanging fruit now. With NRL Hunter though, I don't like the target indicators, left to right, and near to far. I think that severely limits the training capability of that format, but there is weight limits, and find/range/engage.
Tell me you don't understand the difference between open and production without telling me you don't understand the difference between open and productionUSPSA - Production started with limitations - think stock Glock - but now is "Open lite" - example of how not to run "Production" or "Limited".
This. Traveling for matches generally the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.Which is probably why we are seeing rimfire matches booming.
Ammo cost, travel cost (smaller ranges closer to municipalities), less time commitment, etc.
This. Traveling for matches generally the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
Absolutely. A 2 day plus 2 days of travel and hopefully 1 more day beforehand to transition from weeks of work means 5 days away from life and $1500 minimum investment, not including days off work. Once a guy proves to himself that with a bit more time for practice he belongs in the top 5, there is no longer much net positive to look for.It gets incredibly expensive.
Gas (or airfare), food, 3+ days lodging, etc. It adds up quick, and the return you get from those expenses diminishes pretty quickly.
The economy is pretty iffy right now, a lot of people are feeling it, and those that currently aren't will soon. I think we are about to enter a period of stagflation, and its going to get harder and harder to justify the expenses involved in a 2-day PRS match.
I think the matches that will thrive in the future are ones that require less commitment from a time and money standpoint, OR, they somehow offer a larger return for that investment, at least larger than what a current 2 day PRS match looks like.
Absolutely. A 2 day plus 2 days of travel and hopefully 1 more day beforehand to transition from weeks of work means 5 days away from life and $1500 minimum investment, not including days off work. Once a guy proves to himself that with a bit more time for practice he belongs in the top 5, there is no longer much net positive to look for.
Both. You can't be a a high level competitor without a good grasp and consistent application of fundamentals. I would argue shooting and getting better at prs translates into a ton of other shooting skills. Rounds down range build skills.Is it driving people to be better marksmen?
Or is it driving innovation that mitigates input from the shooter?
The production gun debacle and the lawn mower leaning on his gun aka safety 3rd wasn’t a good look for them eitherAgree 100%. The PRS organization seems pretty disorganized considering how long they've had to mature.
The logistics with plate sizes and different targets is prohibitive for the ranges not to mention makes it hard to RO. The easy solution is time.How about a handicap, you can do that with Gun Numbers
The better the gun number the smaller the plate, you can reduce a plate and gun to MPH of wind...
6mm shoot a .4 plate, 308s shoot a .8 plate, based on the wind drift, you can absolutely handicap it like golf if you want too
The guy who just won the world championship in limited (308) is a 6mm shooter with no mil or le background. And the guys he beat are some of the best 308 shooters in the world and have been for many years.Because they are told they are stupid or wasting their time using a 308, the culture of the PRS aint anything but an MPA in 6mm, if the entire field is telling that won't work, you'll never have participation
This is a dumb argument, they do everything to prevent you from participating with off the shelf stuff, and then use the lack of support as evidence it doesn't work, but when someone tries it, they are pushed off to the side.
When a 308 guy shows up and the Open guy shooting the 308 has a 26LBS gun with a 28"+ barrel are you coming back ? What are the rules that balance the field ?
You can't really fault it-- it's inside the rules and it drives up hit probability so people are going to make 30lb 6mm rigs.
Perhaps there's a gear limitation and/or stage design arrangement that can bring in some of the marksmanship skillset from other disciplines and keep the target size such that it's a matter of skill, not random chance whether you hit or not.
Meh i shot Peterson a while back and really really enjoyed it. Some matches are put together well and have a lot of good stages / things to shoot off ofIts a big investment in time and money. The return of shooting off of contrived props over 2 days is not worth it to me. Doing the same thing over, and over and over again is boring, and a really limited test of skills.
Skills yes dollars no comparative to other sportshigh barrier to entry
I agree with this sentiment, but I would also go further and say that people need to be honest with themselves about what exactly a "realistic situation" that you should target your training towards might look like for themselves and/or the average person.To answer your question with maybe an unpopular question, why does it need to have training value? In my opinion, not everything needs to be focused on "training". At the end of the day it's a game played with rifles. Learn how to play the game and play it well. Some skills acquired in the game may cross over to other applications but not all will.
The “barriers to entry” and “unrealistic gear/stages” are related but separate discussions. Props that are not super solid, rifle weight limits, and some gear use restrictions would largely solve the latter. The same shooters would probably win, but results would depend on the shooter a bit more than the gear. The cost is always a thing though.The logistics with plate sizes and different targets is prohibitive for the ranges not to mention makes it hard to RO. The easy solution is time.
AG cup/PRO 90 seconds
Semi Pro. 100 Seconds
Marksman. 110
Amateur and everyone else 120.
Or some variation/scale like that.
Shooters today have are just better. They shoot more train more and have access to better tools and resources.
PRS has plenty of areas of improvement but alot of your gripes are not really relevant or things most competitors care about. PRS is not military or LEO training. I would argue it will improve the shooter as a marksman in alot of areas but there is specific training and competitions if that is what they are after.
Meh. Like firearm ownership , ability helps keep some things at bayneed for that type of training are only a rounding error away from 0
Great list, you forgot chili cook off thoughIf the match doesn't have the following, or a combination of the following, it is not worth my thoughts, time, commitment, nor money.
1.) UKD - Find, Range, Engage
2.) Blind stages
3.) Pistol
4.) Some stressor / KIMs game / physical exertion
5.) Time plus scoring system
6.) Team Match - Primary / Secondary Shooter
7.) Gas Gun - SPR / DMR type matches
This is what I’ve been thinking lately. I’m thinking maybe of doing something like we used to do. A $50 practice session, focused on skills and practicing with your rifle. I’m no instructor, but I’ve a bit of experience that can be transferred. We also have some solid competitive shooters that I’ll have to try and entice attendance and assist.but, there are no good avenues for these 25-60 people to get exposed to what PRS competitors actually do on match weekends
This attitude is amply displayed by many PRS shooters. I’ve slowly phased it out despite disagreeing with the sentiment. Sadly.5. Off hand/unsupported shooting - just no