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So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
Though nowhere near as big or “organized” as PRS in general, matches like Mammoth and Legion Sniper for teams (bolt and carbine) and smaller run and guns like Waco, Legion/Tenet and the Gun Runs have popped up IMO to fill some of what you’re referring to, Frank. (Run and gun being 90+% individual, 10% team and largely semi-auto). Not so much in the pipeline aspect that you’ve just touched on, but to address some of the ridiculousness in the equipment, as well as having blind stages helps keep some semblance of normalcy to the kit.
Once you have to carry the shit you’re going to use for the day, it self selected what is not really needed. Not necessarily the friendliest for sponsors though, as the focus is on physical ability and marksmanship under mental and physical stress.
That’s said, these types of matches are tough on people physically so having a “2 Gun” approach to some long range matches (My impression of PRS) allows some who may not be physically able to do a movement with their gear the ability to come out and compete. I think there is a place for that.
So what is the “fix”? Blind stages? Weight and bag limitations? A classification system like NRA uses?
As to stage setup, there is only so much you can do within a range fan and firing point. Shoot one location long enough and it’s going to get repetitive. You can easily add stress, but the stage design is going to be somewhat limited I would think. I’m not sure this is fixable on an established range.
Once you have to carry the shit you’re going to use for the day, it self selected what is not really needed. Not necessarily the friendliest for sponsors though, as the focus is on physical ability and marksmanship under mental and physical stress.
That’s said, these types of matches are tough on people physically so having a “2 Gun” approach to some long range matches (My impression of PRS) allows some who may not be physically able to do a movement with their gear the ability to come out and compete. I think there is a place for that.
So what is the “fix”? Blind stages? Weight and bag limitations? A classification system like NRA uses?
As to stage setup, there is only so much you can do within a range fan and firing point. Shoot one location long enough and it’s going to get repetitive. You can easily add stress, but the stage design is going to be somewhat limited I would think. I’m not sure this is fixable on an established range.
I saw the same thing in Sporting Clays. I traveled the SE competing. Shooting partner shot his best score with Remington 1100 - he HAD to have a Kreighoff. He CHOSE to spend all that money on $$ over/under. Saw the same thing in USPSA - buddy wanted to compete and Production was available - I begged him to run a Glock34 for a season - went to first match and saw the Open Race Guns - he HAD to have one. His choice.
PRS is same way - there are only a handful of competitors who choose 308, Gas Gun, etc. No one makes them - it is a fact that competitors want the cool toys.
People on Snipers Hide can wax poetic about the good old days of 308 and the match formats they prefer - but the competitors seem to have spoken.
I live in MPA 6mm country here in GA and I run a Foundation in 25x47.
IMO, the real barrier for this type of sport is the lack of spectators. That's what drives($$$) most sports. And I honesty don't see a road to making it spectator friendly entertainment unless you look at the competitive bass fishing model. The only spectators at a match are the other participants and occasionally a couple of onlookers who are generally just observing with intent to participate at some point. But unlike bass fishing/fishing in general, it's extremely difficult for your average Joe to go out and shoot any distance beyond 200 yards and why the .22 model may be the only way to make this work.
Sure there are more than 300 total, but most of those numbers are 1 or two matches only never really Ranking
Keith Baker shot 35 matches, he is sponsored, but also, you are competing against him 1-1, 10+ match people a year... are competiing again 1 or 2 match a year people
Please stop with the stage design limitations... that is weak, lacking of imagination
You can combine stages, use two slots for one, you can still move them forward more than 3 steps, you can still create lists and challenges, use the Rifles Only KD (square range) area the same as the open spaces and honestly if you range can't meet the requirements why have it run a centerfire match ? Do we need 38 places do the exact same thing ?
I could fix a square range in a minute, regardless of the hate and the shoot the messenger BS the SHC still ranks as some of the best matches. SHC was going from 2002 to 2021, we never had the complaints like this
It's funny, people like doing boring shit every week cause it gets them out, but once you say it could be done better, the excuses start to flow
I'm not making a new league, but it doesn't require one, it only requires one MD to think outside the box.
Keith Baker shot 35 matches, he is sponsored, but also, you are competing against him 1-1, 10+ match people a year... are competiing again 1 or 2 match a year people
Please stop with the stage design limitations... that is weak, lacking of imagination
You can combine stages, use two slots for one, you can still move them forward more than 3 steps, you can still create lists and challenges, use the Rifles Only KD (square range) area the same as the open spaces and honestly if you range can't meet the requirements why have it run a centerfire match ? Do we need 38 places do the exact same thing ?
I could fix a square range in a minute, regardless of the hate and the shoot the messenger BS the SHC still ranks as some of the best matches. SHC was going from 2002 to 2021, we never had the complaints like this
It's funny, people like doing boring shit every week cause it gets them out, but once you say it could be done better, the excuses start to flow
I'm not making a new league, but it doesn't require one, it only requires one MD to think outside the box.
Lack of Spectators,
I was at the IPRF, the only media was Shooter Mindset... there are no choices for media
The Owners of the PRS have new houses that are bigger than yours, new $100k+ Cars for everyone, Huge Boats and Fancy Hunts and Vacations, sorry the money is tight
You usually have to start off paying for media to prove it's worth, after that it pays you... none of that happned
Air Rifle is on TV, I saw one from Utah Air doing a mini competition in a warehouse, even NBC sports shows air rifle, but you have to pitch them, they don't show up with money at your door
I was at the IPRF, the only media was Shooter Mindset... there are no choices for media
The Owners of the PRS have new houses that are bigger than yours, new $100k+ Cars for everyone, Huge Boats and Fancy Hunts and Vacations, sorry the money is tight
You usually have to start off paying for media to prove it's worth, after that it pays you... none of that happned
Air Rifle is on TV, I saw one from Utah Air doing a mini competition in a warehouse, even NBC sports shows air rifle, but you have to pitch them, they don't show up with money at your door
I like that combination, you should teach people about it,
Last week the IPRF guys at my range training were hunting dasher brass every few second, bet you barely sweat losing a piece of x47 brass
I shoot in some form every 3 days usally I enjoy it, I teach weekly too, enjoy that... i do a lot to support people and the sport
I drove 4 hours to the IPRF just to say hi and visit, where a bunch of them don't like me... so I was still there...
I even gave an impromptu wind class and spent 45 minutes showing a group of people the Kraft Quick Wind stuff... I put a case of books on the prize table and 5 packages of stickers, just to leave when it got started
I find it odd the push back to do things a bit better, vs being contrived day in and out, truly mediocre is being promoted sad
I drove 4 hours to the IPRF just to say hi and visit, where a bunch of them don't like me... so I was still there...
I even gave an impromptu wind class and spent 45 minutes showing a group of people the Kraft Quick Wind stuff... I put a case of books on the prize table and 5 packages of stickers, just to leave when it got started
I find it odd the push back to do things a bit better, vs being contrived day in and out, truly mediocre is being promoted sad
Speaking as a complete novice PRS type shooter who has never and never will be on a podium, I do enjoy PRS matches a couple times per year. The constant turn offs are the ego driven jackasses arguing over every point (not that it helps their placement) and also the repetitive nature of the stages. I’ve also experienced stages that were too difficult and just flat out ruined the fun or learning opportunity that could be had. The difficult stages are usually very small targets on unstable barricades and the reasoning is that the top 3 guys need it to make it a challenge. Fair enough but those of us that are simply enthusiasts don’t enjoy the contrived, repetitive nature that comes with the so called challenging stages.
I do constantly hear other shooters who are interested in some sort of challenge and they mostly want to try the NRL Hunter type matches. Certainly the NRL Hunter matches appear to be more accessible to the recreational competitor who wants it to correlate to a real life situation they would experience.
The field style matches do seem very interesting and in my experience are more enjoyable with a better sense of accomplishment to the average non professional shooter.
I do constantly hear other shooters who are interested in some sort of challenge and they mostly want to try the NRL Hunter type matches. Certainly the NRL Hunter matches appear to be more accessible to the recreational competitor who wants it to correlate to a real life situation they would experience.
The field style matches do seem very interesting and in my experience are more enjoyable with a better sense of accomplishment to the average non professional shooter.
Due to the lethalness of bullets and the risk of any type of negligent/accidental discharge makes this extremely difficult to bring in spectators, hence my bass fishing model. The vast majority of of spectators are watching it on a screen. Your air rifle reference makes sense as it can be done indoors at short distance. And would probably easier to monetize vs. PRS/long distance rim fire. 22 may be doable but there's still the risk of injury or death for onsite spectators. I like the golf analogy because it's actually quite similar to long range PRS type shooting but the lack of access to shooting long distance vs. golf is a huge barrier to get spectator excited about watching and then getting involved. i.e. buying sponsor's products. You may be able to approach it much like the outdoor hunting shows which has proven to be lucrative for sponsors/manufactures.
Field Matches out west here are SO MUCH better...
Find it, range it, engage it... with real rules and gear limitations.
Guys often fail just finding the targets, real-world stuff right there.
Even if NRL Hunter seems equally repetitive, the field nature of it changes the look; it's not the same.
Back to spectating, you can make it safe, lots of sports have limited safety, ever seen a rally car screw up into people sitting a foot of the course ?
again, imagniation is the answer, we have SO many tools for media today, you have unlimited opportunities, they just won't try beause they don't know anyone to lean on... they go to what they know vs taking a risk to try something new
Find it, range it, engage it... with real rules and gear limitations.
Guys often fail just finding the targets, real-world stuff right there.
Even if NRL Hunter seems equally repetitive, the field nature of it changes the look; it's not the same.
Back to spectating, you can make it safe, lots of sports have limited safety, ever seen a rally car screw up into people sitting a foot of the course ?
again, imagniation is the answer, we have SO many tools for media today, you have unlimited opportunities, they just won't try beause they don't know anyone to lean on... they go to what they know vs taking a risk to try something new
Golf is probably the closest parallel that could sort of be modeled
Day 1 - Qualifying for non pro's
Day 2 - Pro Practice - replace this with a 1-day regional match
Day 3 - Pro/Am - Allow sponsors to shoot with the "Pro's" and get 1-1 advice
Day 4 - Qualifier
Day 5 - Finals
to me, the only way it works, is if 50%+ of your spectators are there to shoot in some capacity
It's actually down to data,
Knowing the numbers and then mining those numbers to promote the parts that are not working
They ignore the reality for the ease of doing business, it's really about logistics and moving people around properly.
See like i said, the pipeline to success, you have to move people from where they are, to where they NEED to go vs want to go in some cases.
Golf is very close because they can handicap a competitor to work alongside a pro without the problems we see. The biggest is disenfranchised shooters, if you go expecting a certain outcome, and when you arrive if none of the exists because you don't know, you'll get a bad taste.
The way things are run is definitely a problem, and those feelings are real, even if they appear weak. You need a model that makes sense and has a proper path to move forward. Those changes should absolutely be minor on the competitor so the people who like it, dont; really see a change beyond a stage design, which can be invisible in a lot of ways, if I said shoot A, B, C, or C, B, A, it's the same but different, if i said, Shoot Target A twice and B Twice with it being 1/2 the size that is an invisible change.
the pipeline matters when you want to grow something, it;s all logistics
Knowing the numbers and then mining those numbers to promote the parts that are not working
They ignore the reality for the ease of doing business, it's really about logistics and moving people around properly.
See like i said, the pipeline to success, you have to move people from where they are, to where they NEED to go vs want to go in some cases.
Golf is very close because they can handicap a competitor to work alongside a pro without the problems we see. The biggest is disenfranchised shooters, if you go expecting a certain outcome, and when you arrive if none of the exists because you don't know, you'll get a bad taste.
The way things are run is definitely a problem, and those feelings are real, even if they appear weak. You need a model that makes sense and has a proper path to move forward. Those changes should absolutely be minor on the competitor so the people who like it, dont; really see a change beyond a stage design, which can be invisible in a lot of ways, if I said shoot A, B, C, or C, B, A, it's the same but different, if i said, Shoot Target A twice and B Twice with it being 1/2 the size that is an invisible change.
the pipeline matters when you want to grow something, it;s all logistics
I get it, most lower level competitors don't give a shit, ignorance is bliss and if you like what you are doing, you'll never see a reason to change.
But in the next 2 weeks, someone will reach out, they always do, i have supported a lot of MDs out there, many never see it as we both know if the Admin of the PRS finds out I am helping they will tax them in a negative way. So I say very little when I help these guys.
I competed a lot until recently, i have a couple of issues that prevent me from doing it to a level that makes me feel comfortable. Nobody will let me, be me, I have to be something else, so when I do compete I use a fake name now. It helps. Just the way the cookie crumbles, but how many of you big time PRS competition guys have had others walk to you at a match and say, Damn I saw you were here and I just wanted to beat you, that is my reality, everything do, good or bad is judged on a scale few could match.
But also Chris competes, a lot, and wins steel a lot, I am on the range with him weekly. We teach together and he mentors a lot of NRL and PRS guys, so I see it all. Trying to flex saying I have a 25x47 is comical, sure seen it, seen 22GT, 22 Creedmoor, too... big deal. I see it all, the 153s going 2575, the fast, the small, the short, I see it all. My 224V load of the 85.5gr going 3025fps is awesome too, 6.8 to 1k, and it's a 7MPH gun in the wind, no recoil and 6k barrel life, but that 25 cal stuff is fun too,
See back in the day, when I promoted these comps and everyone Leaned on SH we talked about everything. Remember the PRS started on Sniper's Hide, it was because of Sniper's Hide and it was flushed out on this site. I didn't like what they were doing, so they ran away to hide from the criticism, but before this, I was the Marketing Arm of this stuff. Make no mistake, none of it survived without Sniper's Hide, I was the mouthpiece promoting this daily
We talked about the new calibers, how to manage it, what to do, when to do it, and how to do it
Know your history...
But in the next 2 weeks, someone will reach out, they always do, i have supported a lot of MDs out there, many never see it as we both know if the Admin of the PRS finds out I am helping they will tax them in a negative way. So I say very little when I help these guys.
I competed a lot until recently, i have a couple of issues that prevent me from doing it to a level that makes me feel comfortable. Nobody will let me, be me, I have to be something else, so when I do compete I use a fake name now. It helps. Just the way the cookie crumbles, but how many of you big time PRS competition guys have had others walk to you at a match and say, Damn I saw you were here and I just wanted to beat you, that is my reality, everything do, good or bad is judged on a scale few could match.
But also Chris competes, a lot, and wins steel a lot, I am on the range with him weekly. We teach together and he mentors a lot of NRL and PRS guys, so I see it all. Trying to flex saying I have a 25x47 is comical, sure seen it, seen 22GT, 22 Creedmoor, too... big deal. I see it all, the 153s going 2575, the fast, the small, the short, I see it all. My 224V load of the 85.5gr going 3025fps is awesome too, 6.8 to 1k, and it's a 7MPH gun in the wind, no recoil and 6k barrel life, but that 25 cal stuff is fun too,
See back in the day, when I promoted these comps and everyone Leaned on SH we talked about everything. Remember the PRS started on Sniper's Hide, it was because of Sniper's Hide and it was flushed out on this site. I didn't like what they were doing, so they ran away to hide from the criticism, but before this, I was the Marketing Arm of this stuff. Make no mistake, none of it survived without Sniper's Hide, I was the mouthpiece promoting this daily
We talked about the new calibers, how to manage it, what to do, when to do it, and how to do it
Know your history...
@Lowlight if you don't like how prs is now your really gona hate it in 10 years, probably like 5 years. There's gona be scopes that do automatic drop compensation and probably wind as well. Automatic triggers might be a thing to meaning when you get on target the gun will fire. This will always be a money spending game.
Nah,
You completely miss the point, I am not anti-technology, not by any means, you're completely lost,
I am talking about everything else,
PS, I already have an MD asking for help, so apparently you genius "competitors" have no clue, big difference between showing up to match and shooting it vs actually understanding how to create a system that works...
You completely miss the point, I am not anti-technology, not by any means, you're completely lost,
I am talking about everything else,
PS, I already have an MD asking for help, so apparently you genius "competitors" have no clue, big difference between showing up to match and shooting it vs actually understanding how to create a system that works...
My experience isn’t at a pro level but I can attest to some of the comments made. I’m new to long range shooting, but not shooting by any means. I build my rifle 2 years ago. It wasn’t cheap, but it’s cheap compared to the jersey boys at a PRS match’s rigs. My gun is probably 10 lbs lighter, and in a McMillan stock. I shot my first match last year and I remember walking away having fun but thinking, this is awful gamey. Then I took a class last fall and had a blast. Shot some local f class matches, had a lot of fun but I don’t really want to build an f class rifle. Then recently I shot another PRS match. Not so much fun. The entire hillside was littered with targets, it was incredibly hard for me to even find the target I was supposed to be shooting at because there was so many. Everyone else had 26lb weighted chassis guns that didn’t move a hair under recoil and I’m sure were regulars so they blew through everything and found the targets right away. I left again thinking this is super gamey and just not for me I guess. I have the desire to shoot long range and learn, I don’t want to build some heavy gamer gun that’s 10-15k. I’ll probably go back to f class stuff even though on paper I should like PRS more. I think id love the steel safari type stuff but I can’t find stuff like that on the east coast.
If matches are local, it’s fun for the mid pack and up shooter. For those who have to travel at least a day, 2 years in and it’s no fun to invest that much to be savaged by small targets and COFs that are necessary to challenge the top 5 shooters. The newbie gets fucking destroyed by that same COF. Everyone seems to say gear doesn’t matter, but the top 5 shooters don’t demonstrate that very often. Locally to me, FFP optics are as crazy an idea as unreached Amazonian tribes watching a jet fly overhead. Fix it? Just like the national government, the majority have to be willing to invest in change before anything will be different.
Frank,
Here's an idea, a handicapping system for shooters. I believe it can be done but might take some time to implement.
I've been a horse guy my entire life, rodeo some, and farrier for 40 years. I've got a parallel to try to explain what I'm saying.
Over 30 years ago the United States Team Roping Association came along and devised a handicap system for ropers based on their skill level.
Back when I was doing a lot of roping headers were ranked from 1-7 and heelers were 1-9. 1's being true beginners and the 7 and 9's being the true professional ropers.The USTRC ropings and a lot of local ropings would use same system.. Go to a roping and there would be different numbered classes/divisions.
Say there was a #7 class, your number and your partners number added had to be 7 or less. This created sort of a level playing field . This helped the sport to really grow. I believe PRS could do the same thing, except instead of tactical or gas gun have a different level for shooters based on their skill set.
You mention Keith Baker, I've known Keith since he first started doing PRS about the same time I started going to a few. At that time we were on about the same level. However , Keith really got into it and started doing what it took to get to where he is today. He put in lots of practice, rounds down range, and going to lots of matches gaining experience and knowledge to build a high level skill set. Most guys, myself included, don't have the time or ability to devote to get to his level. I still do a couple PRS matches a year if they're somewhat close as I enjoy shooting.
Just an FYI to the MD's who may be reading this.
I hosted a team run and gun 3 weeks ago. We had 9 stages spread out over a 2 mile trek.
Stage 1 was "Rattle Battle". Team had to begin the stage just as they were when they walked up. Team rushed from the start line to the engagement tiles, assumes any position, (a low hill blocked prone) and engaged 3 targets (a 12", 10", and 8" gong). 30 hits stops time. Best time wins.
Stage 2 "Door buster". Team breaches a door and clears 2 rooms, proceeds to engage the back yard, transitions to pistol and finishes on a dueling tree. Shortest time wins.
Stage 3 was "Advance" Each shooter had to hit a 300yd target ( kneeling or prone, you couldn't see it prone but you could still hit it) 5 times run 50 yds and hit it again 5 times and run 50yd forward again and hit it 5 more.
Stage 4 was retreat. One team member engaged 200yds target 10 times while team mates 2 and 3 ran back to 250 and 300yds. As team mate 1 finished and ran back and was clear #2 began to engage 10 times and so forth.
Stage 5 was "Fight your way back to your rifle" Start with pistol in strong hand and weight in off had. Hit steel target and throw weight. Run to weight and pick it up and hit steel again. Repeat until weight is in designated white tile on ground. Table pistol and grab tabled rifle and run T-rex scrambler drill (shoot until you hit, no HF)
Stage 6 "Know your limit" targets at 300, 400, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700, 750. Assume prone position and choose your limit target. Engage it first and each target closer with 1 shot. Now assume barricade position and repeat. Each hit is worth 1 point, each miss is -2.
Stage 7 "Outreach Program" Team engages targets from 300 to 600 yds in a volley. Hit = 1 pt
Stage 8 "Hits Count" 20" squares at 100, 200, 300, 400, and 8" square at 250. Each shooter get 13rds and 60 sec. Most points wins. (Ties are possible)
Stage 9 "Highland games" Shooter 1 engages target with 4 shots, drops the mag, engages with last shot, tables rifle and lays down and yell "I'm hit". teammate #2 drags #1 out of the way and #3 finishes stage. Hits win.
Some operating principles.
The closer the target the bigger I made them to statistically center the shooters scores (so the lower shooters don't look so off)
On team stages, shooters allowed 1 retry. On individual stages the best 2 teammate's score was the teams score.
A gear bonus was used to reward the non-quantifiable (ie. plates in the carriers)
The teams had a focus, CQB or DMR. CQB competed in Stages 2 and 5 and skipped 6 and seven. DMR was reverse.
Shooting was 65% of score, running was 35%.
JoeZ
I hosted a team run and gun 3 weeks ago. We had 9 stages spread out over a 2 mile trek.
Stage 1 was "Rattle Battle". Team had to begin the stage just as they were when they walked up. Team rushed from the start line to the engagement tiles, assumes any position, (a low hill blocked prone) and engaged 3 targets (a 12", 10", and 8" gong). 30 hits stops time. Best time wins.
Stage 2 "Door buster". Team breaches a door and clears 2 rooms, proceeds to engage the back yard, transitions to pistol and finishes on a dueling tree. Shortest time wins.
Stage 3 was "Advance" Each shooter had to hit a 300yd target ( kneeling or prone, you couldn't see it prone but you could still hit it) 5 times run 50 yds and hit it again 5 times and run 50yd forward again and hit it 5 more.
Stage 4 was retreat. One team member engaged 200yds target 10 times while team mates 2 and 3 ran back to 250 and 300yds. As team mate 1 finished and ran back and was clear #2 began to engage 10 times and so forth.
Stage 5 was "Fight your way back to your rifle" Start with pistol in strong hand and weight in off had. Hit steel target and throw weight. Run to weight and pick it up and hit steel again. Repeat until weight is in designated white tile on ground. Table pistol and grab tabled rifle and run T-rex scrambler drill (shoot until you hit, no HF)
Stage 6 "Know your limit" targets at 300, 400, 500, 550, 600, 650, 700, 750. Assume prone position and choose your limit target. Engage it first and each target closer with 1 shot. Now assume barricade position and repeat. Each hit is worth 1 point, each miss is -2.
Stage 7 "Outreach Program" Team engages targets from 300 to 600 yds in a volley. Hit = 1 pt
Stage 8 "Hits Count" 20" squares at 100, 200, 300, 400, and 8" square at 250. Each shooter get 13rds and 60 sec. Most points wins. (Ties are possible)
Stage 9 "Highland games" Shooter 1 engages target with 4 shots, drops the mag, engages with last shot, tables rifle and lays down and yell "I'm hit". teammate #2 drags #1 out of the way and #3 finishes stage. Hits win.
Some operating principles.
The closer the target the bigger I made them to statistically center the shooters scores (so the lower shooters don't look so off)
On team stages, shooters allowed 1 retry. On individual stages the best 2 teammate's score was the teams score.
A gear bonus was used to reward the non-quantifiable (ie. plates in the carriers)
The teams had a focus, CQB or DMR. CQB competed in Stages 2 and 5 and skipped 6 and seven. DMR was reverse.
Shooting was 65% of score, running was 35%.
JoeZ
PRS is an incredibly expensive sport, numbers will go down as the economy goes down, the decline is actually a lot smaller than i would expect in an economic downturn.
Which is probably why we are seeing rimfire matches booming.
Ammo cost, travel cost (smaller ranges closer to municipalities), less time commitment, etc.
I used to consider local PRS matches low hanging fruit. I no longer consider them that, nor attend.
If the match doesn't have the following, or a combination of the following, it is not worth my thoughts, time, commitment, nor money.
1.) UKD - Find, Range, Engage
2.) Blind stages
3.) Pistol
4.) Some stressor / KIMs game / physical exertion
5.) Time plus scoring system
6.) Team Match - Primary / Secondary Shooter
7.) Gas Gun - SPR / DMR type matches
John at Steel City, Adam and Matt with Chaos Concepts, and Dan at Colemans Creek have done a great job setting up these type formats. Ben Franklin Range, Dark Corner Concepts (Real World Sniper), and others have similar matches, but I have not had the opportunity to attend.
Guardian used to have several Team Matches, but they have dropped the pistol & find/range/engage and gone back to their more traditional Guardian format with individual on Saturday and fold the field for a team match on Sunday. I have stopped shooting these matches, even though they are still for a great cause.
NRL Hunter is my low hanging fruit now. With NRL Hunter though, I don't like the target indicators, left to right, and near to far. I think that severely limits the training capability of that format, but there is weight limits, and find/range/engage.
If the match doesn't have the following, or a combination of the following, it is not worth my thoughts, time, commitment, nor money.
1.) UKD - Find, Range, Engage
2.) Blind stages
3.) Pistol
4.) Some stressor / KIMs game / physical exertion
5.) Time plus scoring system
6.) Team Match - Primary / Secondary Shooter
7.) Gas Gun - SPR / DMR type matches
John at Steel City, Adam and Matt with Chaos Concepts, and Dan at Colemans Creek have done a great job setting up these type formats. Ben Franklin Range, Dark Corner Concepts (Real World Sniper), and others have similar matches, but I have not had the opportunity to attend.
Guardian used to have several Team Matches, but they have dropped the pistol & find/range/engage and gone back to their more traditional Guardian format with individual on Saturday and fold the field for a team match on Sunday. I have stopped shooting these matches, even though they are still for a great cause.
NRL Hunter is my low hanging fruit now. With NRL Hunter though, I don't like the target indicators, left to right, and near to far. I think that severely limits the training capability of that format, but there is weight limits, and find/range/engage.
You're doing it right. I am jealous of the type of matches you are shooting these days.
Tell me you don't understand the difference between open and production without telling me you don't understand the difference between open and production
This. Traveling for matches generally the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
It gets incredibly expensive.
Gas (or airfare), food, 3+ days lodging, etc. It adds up quick, and the return you get from those expenses diminishes pretty quickly.
The economy is pretty iffy right now, a lot of people are feeling it, and those that currently aren't will soon. I think we are about to enter a period of stagflation, and its going to get harder and harder to justify the expenses involved in a 2-day PRS match.
I think the matches that will thrive in the future are ones that require less commitment from a time and money standpoint, OR, they somehow offer a larger return for that investment, at least larger than what a current 2 day PRS match looks like.
Absolutely. A 2 day plus 2 days of travel and hopefully 1 more day beforehand to transition from weeks of work means 5 days away from life and $1500 minimum investment, not including days off work. Once a guy proves to himself that with a bit more time for practice he belongs in the top 5, there is no longer much net positive to look for.
One of the reasons why I stopped shooting PRS.
Its a big investment in time and money. The return of shooting off of contrived props over 2 days is not worth it to me. Doing the same thing over, and over and over again is boring, and a really limited test of skills.
I initially got into PRS to grow my skillset as a shooter. Now that every stage is an iteration of placing a sand-filled barricade bag on a contrived prop, there's not really much return on that.
@blbennett1288 is doing it right, IMO. Competitions that test a wide range of skill sets. From finding, ranging and engaging targets, to an incorporation of teamwork, and/or different equipment like SPR/DMR type stuff. All of that is intriguing to me. All of that would bring back in a test of a variety of skills, and bringing a return on the investment through knowledge and skill set growth.
The issue is finding a network of those types of matches. They seem to be pretty localized, and you're either in an area that does one or a combination of those types of matches, or you are back to traveling long distances to shoot those matches. And then you are working against limited resources (time, money) again.
I wish there was something that could be done at the one day level for new shooters.
I was the guy showing up and hitting 10 targets with my 16lb rifle. I couldn’t afford an all out setup. I am hard headed enough that I worked through it and figured it out. Now I have more fun and hit a lot more targets.
It was a struggle for quite a while. If you don’t have the money to play the game, it’s honestly almost not worth showing up.
I still see the training aspect of it. I want to shoot more nrl hunter, which is a game too. I still struggle with the urge to stop shooting matches and to just shoot more prairie dogs. Competition adds pressure that can only come from competition or hunting in my experience, for that reason I keep playing the game.
Watching bullets go down range and trying to make first round hits will never get old for me.
I was the guy showing up and hitting 10 targets with my 16lb rifle. I couldn’t afford an all out setup. I am hard headed enough that I worked through it and figured it out. Now I have more fun and hit a lot more targets.
It was a struggle for quite a while. If you don’t have the money to play the game, it’s honestly almost not worth showing up.
I still see the training aspect of it. I want to shoot more nrl hunter, which is a game too. I still struggle with the urge to stop shooting matches and to just shoot more prairie dogs. Competition adds pressure that can only come from competition or hunting in my experience, for that reason I keep playing the game.
Watching bullets go down range and trying to make first round hits will never get old for me.
It’s weird how some will outline their own personal observations and issues over the years while others go right to deflecting
Team sports right, their team can do no wrong
Team sports right, their team can do no wrong
Both. You can't be a a high level competitor without a good grasp and consistent application of fundamentals. I would argue shooting and getting better at prs translates into a ton of other shooting skills. Rounds down range build skills.
As far as contrived stages, ect...it's a sport. You have range/prop limitations as well as the desire for consistency. There is a ton of latitude within the rules for a MD to make a match a real mother fucker if they want. But shooter wants is what matters and if you want to go play tactical Timmy sniper on the weekends...there are plenty of other match formats for that. Talking down on prs for giving the majority of shooters what they want is silly IMO.
@kthomas @Emerson0311
One way we have gone to offsetting the cost of competitions is through the camping out and team matches. We do not fly and we do not stay in hotels. We take a single vehicle, split gas, split groceries, and camp & cook out.
Colemans Creek is 8hrs for us and this year we will do a single one-day team match, and a single two-day team match there.
Major Land Sniper Cup is 9.5 - 10 hrs and we will be going there next month.
It's doable, just got to budget for it and have the right camping equipment.
One way we have gone to offsetting the cost of competitions is through the camping out and team matches. We do not fly and we do not stay in hotels. We take a single vehicle, split gas, split groceries, and camp & cook out.
Colemans Creek is 8hrs for us and this year we will do a single one-day team match, and a single two-day team match there.
Major Land Sniper Cup is 9.5 - 10 hrs and we will be going there next month.
It's doable, just got to budget for it and have the right camping equipment.
The logistics with plate sizes and different targets is prohibitive for the ranges not to mention makes it hard to RO. The easy solution is time.
AG cup/PRO 90 seconds
Semi Pro. 100 Seconds
Marksman. 110
Amateur and everyone else 120.
Or some variation/scale like that.
Shooters today have are just better. They shoot more train more and have access to better tools and resources.
PRS has plenty of areas of improvement but alot of your gripes are not really relevant or things most competitors care about. PRS is not military or LEO training. I would argue it will improve the shooter as a marksman in alot of areas but there is specific training and competitions if that is what they are after.
The guy who just won the world championship in limited (308) is a 6mm shooter with no mil or le background. And the guys he beat are some of the best 308 shooters in the world and have been for many years.
We get it there is a high barrier to entry. Oh well so is offshore fishing or drag racing or any other similar niche sports/hobbies that require expensive equipment to compete.
Repetitive, yes. I don't think that's the problem though. Golf is repetitive, NRA High power is repetitive, 3-gun is repetitive, etc. I agree solid points on open division being the queen of the party. PRS, as it is, is hard to suggest to shoot gas gun for sure. There's a little more following in TAC and production but they're side shows. The other divisions are nice to have somewhere to go when you get burned out with open. I wish they were more populated because gas gun last year felt like participation trophies (1-3 people show up in the division out of 80-120 shooters) until the finale, which was fun because there was a squad of gassers.
However, I do have some concern in the way technology/gear is pushing things. Solvers have improved to the point that elevation and (to a lesser extent) wind is nowhere near the obstacle that they were 10 years ago. Elevation is pretty spot on at this point if your system is consistent and you set it up correctly. What I'm seeing happen is bullets, rifles, optics, and solvers are getting to the point that if you make the rifle heavy enough, put it on a sand bag, have good range and environmental data, it's pretty much point and shoot. Once you figure out how to use a bag positionally there really isn't much possible error to it. Okay so what? Well people start cleaning matches with 1-1.5 MOA plates. You can't really fault it-- it's inside the rules and it drives up hit probability so people are going to make 30lb 6mm rigs.
What I do not want to see happen is for plate sizes to ever get below 1 MOA to differentiate scores. At that point it's getting into the realm of a game of roulette as to who hits more and I don't care to participate in that sort of an event. I've tested enough platforms at this point that I have a pretty good feel on what these rifles are capable of reliably and for a hit/miss target IMHO the target size should exceed the capability, then stage design and equipment make it a matter of skill to drive hits or misses.
On the opposite end of things you have something like USMC Table 1. The target size is somewhat larger than the raw system capability (M16 or M4 + M855) and it is entirely up to the unsupported shooter to land them in the black. This is to judge the marksmanship skill level of the shooter.
Perhaps there's a gear limitation and/or stage design arrangement that can bring in some of the marksmanship skillset from other disciplines and keep the target size such that it's a matter of skill, not random chance whether you hit or not.
However, I do have some concern in the way technology/gear is pushing things. Solvers have improved to the point that elevation and (to a lesser extent) wind is nowhere near the obstacle that they were 10 years ago. Elevation is pretty spot on at this point if your system is consistent and you set it up correctly. What I'm seeing happen is bullets, rifles, optics, and solvers are getting to the point that if you make the rifle heavy enough, put it on a sand bag, have good range and environmental data, it's pretty much point and shoot. Once you figure out how to use a bag positionally there really isn't much possible error to it. Okay so what? Well people start cleaning matches with 1-1.5 MOA plates. You can't really fault it-- it's inside the rules and it drives up hit probability so people are going to make 30lb 6mm rigs.
What I do not want to see happen is for plate sizes to ever get below 1 MOA to differentiate scores. At that point it's getting into the realm of a game of roulette as to who hits more and I don't care to participate in that sort of an event. I've tested enough platforms at this point that I have a pretty good feel on what these rifles are capable of reliably and for a hit/miss target IMHO the target size should exceed the capability, then stage design and equipment make it a matter of skill to drive hits or misses.
On the opposite end of things you have something like USMC Table 1. The target size is somewhat larger than the raw system capability (M16 or M4 + M855) and it is entirely up to the unsupported shooter to land them in the black. This is to judge the marksmanship skill level of the shooter.
Perhaps there's a gear limitation and/or stage design arrangement that can bring in some of the marksmanship skillset from other disciplines and keep the target size such that it's a matter of skill, not random chance whether you hit or not.
this is exactly the reason offhand shooting and some wobbly props, kind of helps
- it keeps the balance between a super heavy gun, and fundamentals
- you can still shoot a heavy gun off both, its just harder
offhand shooting and wobbly props test 3 things, regardless of rifle weight
1. NPA
2. trigger press
3. recoil management
with a heavy gun and a super stable prop,
you have a much larger margin of error when you get sloppy
When you have a high barrier to entry you have a better solidified pipeline for competition
It's only the Millionaires who jump into something and not follow a logical progression. Money means you can skip a step, how his this not well known
Why those series and leagues have a better feeder system
It's only the Millionaires who jump into something and not follow a logical progression. Money means you can skip a step, how his this not well known
Why those series and leagues have a better feeder system
Austin Buschman is the only person I know who has cleaned a 2 day. Others have cleaned a day of a 2 day match. However I hardly find the very top people cleaning a day of a match a justifiable reason to overhaul the PRS. That would be like changing the rules or Service Rifle because someone like Brandon Green, Ben Cleland and so on set another record and cleaned a whole 800 Agg, P100, and the list goes on.
I agree with this sentiment, but I would also go further and say that people need to be honest with themselves about what exactly a "realistic situation" that you should target your training towards might look like for themselves and/or the average person.
The primary "real world" use for most people's shooting skills by far, outside of recreation and competition, is to use them for hunting. Research has consistently shown that 80-85% of firearm hunters and 90-95% of archery hunters use an elevated stand of some kind, making stand hunting BY FAR the most popular method, with spot/stalk and other hunting techniques that require lots of movement making up a small minority of hunts.
When hunting from a stand all you need to do is to carry your equipment to the stand, sit quietly observing for what you're trying to hunt, and then execute a well-placed shot on your target after it has been spotted. The only time your heartrate goes up is during the walks to/from the stand and when you see that big buck finally making an appearance. Having a heavy rifle and heavy shooting bag is just fine for this scenario as long as you're able to carry the rifle to/from the stand.
In fact it works great, my PRS rifle is the best one I own in terms of pure suitability for sitting in a stand and using it to hunt deer. It will put the bullet right where the scope is aimed even if my recoil control is less than perfect or I'm free recoiling it due to an awkward angle or tight quarters, if I set it on a bag on the rail it's not going to get knocked off by a gust of wind or me accidentally bumping it due to the weight, and a 105gr bullet traveling 2800-3200fps is a near-ideal load for whitetail. Since I shoot PRS with a suppressor it's even much healthier for me to use while hunting than the average deer rifle with a bare muzzle that poses substantially more risk to your hearing.
The mundane reality is that for 80-85% of firearms hunters a heavy gun from a bag laid over a man-made rail is quite possibly the closest correlation out there between any shooting competition (rifle, shotgun, or pistol) and expected "real-world" uses of a gun. It's not exciting to watch and it's not going to specifically prepare you for active combat or the end of society as we know it today, but reality is often disappointing like that. Another honest truth is that almost every shooting sport sucks to watch, they're almost all objectively terrible spectator sports. The ones that are more exciting to watch than paint drying (shotgun sports mostly) are that way only because the targets were designed to make hit/miss obvious from a distance with the naked eye, not anything to do with their course of fire specifically.
It's never a bad idea to train and make yourself ready for the worst possible scenarios, but the honest truth is that the odds you will ever encounter a real need for that type of training are only a rounding error away from 0. Spot/stalk style hunting is pretty well represented by NRL Hunter style matches where you carry everything and spot targets/deploy gear using natural terrain while on the clock, but the only things missing from PRS to perfectly replicate hunting out of a stand is a comfy chair and the disappointment of going home empty handed should you miss (many matches already give you similar hours of waiting around to shoot when compared to hunting).
The “barriers to entry” and “unrealistic gear/stages” are related but separate discussions. Props that are not super solid, rifle weight limits, and some gear use restrictions would largely solve the latter. The same shooters would probably win, but results would depend on the shooter a bit more than the gear. The cost is always a thing though.
Edit: Ledzep and a couple others covered my thoughts well when I was posting.
This is what I’ve been thinking lately. I’m thinking maybe of doing something like we used to do. A $50 practice session, focused on skills and practicing with your rifle. I’m no instructor, but I’ve a bit of experience that can be transferred. We also have some solid competitive shooters that I’ll have to try and entice attendance and assist.
This attitude is amply displayed by many PRS shooters. I’ve slowly phased it out despite disagreeing with the sentiment. Sadly.
