So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today
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I really enjoy football. But, I’m too old for college and the pros. It’s really unfair that they don’t have a division for older and slower guys like me. Ima write Roger right now.
Yes, the "competitors have spoken". The point is there aren't that many, and no real growth. Its a niche hobby (notice I didn't say sport) and always will be.
In some ways I disagree. Shooting solid pieces of guilding metal covered lead, is shooting solid pieces of guilding metal covered lead.
Trigger control, getting on target, being steady and being under control of yourself under pressure, are all the hallmark of all shooting sports, including hunting! Getting back on target quickly is important in PRS. It is also an important skill in Hunting, though one would hope that it is not necessary.
And, most sports are technically a game. So, I also ask, what is wrong with that? Afterall, we use specially carved pieces of a special wood to hit a ball, and not some stick that fell off of a tree. And its a sport but its called a “game.”
Trigger control, getting on target, being steady and being under control of yourself under pressure, are all the hallmark of all shooting sports, including hunting! Getting back on target quickly is important in PRS. It is also an important skill in Hunting, though one would hope that it is not necessary.
And, most sports are technically a game. So, I also ask, what is wrong with that? Afterall, we use specially carved pieces of a special wood to hit a ball, and not some stick that fell off of a tree. And its a sport but its called a “game.”
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His point was that it is a sport as far as the term sport is used in regular context. Try to keep up, will ya?
Forgive me if I fail to see the the significance of a somewhat obvious statement.His point was that it is a sport as far as the term sport is used in regular context. Try to keep up, will ya?
I understood this thread to be centered around the justification of changes which could enhance participation numbers while simultaneously reducing stagnation & declining participation.
You Yanks are way too political about stuff.His point was that it is a sport as far as the term sport is used in regular context. Try to keep up, will ya?
When I read a lot of the comments, I'm reminded of some of the back chatter at AGM's & monthly committee meetings.
All kinds of theories why certain things happen or don't happen. Conspiracies about committee member motivations & all manner of wild accusations, under the table plans & etc. Then, when an idea is finally brought to the meeting, it's usually agreed that we can simply try it out & see how it goes. No muss, no fuss.
Most of the time it really is that simple.
I know there have been some light discussion about this but how does everyone feel about having standardized targets for a certain yardge.
Example: targets must be approximately these sizes for this yardage range.
400-6"-10"
550-700-8"-12"
800-1000-12"-18"
Example: targets must be approximately these sizes for this yardage range.
400-6"-10"
550-700-8"-12"
800-1000-12"-18"
Nope. More interesting with different sizes depending on stage.
I get what your saying. I just threw out some random numbers. But you could give min/max size to use that way you have a range of sizes if you want to do like a TYL rack.
If you look at the sports we are talking about dying they all have standardized target sizes. Learn from that. Keep it interesting and different.
Your not wrong. I just see it from the perspective of you have one group who gets pissy when they see a meatball match and they didn't shoot that match. Then another group who gets pissy when the match was too difficult due to smaller targets. In my eyes it equals the playing field across the nation and at that point the main denominator are weather and shooter skill. But I also realize same could be said for put out whatever targets you want.
And catering to either of those groups is the wrong answer as both are part of the problem. To the first if it’s such a meatball match then go clean it and win and if you didn’t then it wasn’t so easy was it? And the second if you are afraid of a challenge then why are you shooting? Go out and challenge yourself and use it to learn what you need to work on as you will never know if you don’t try.
NO
NO
NO!
One of the neat things about Precision Rifle Shooting is the differences in the targets, target sizes and shapes. Nailing Match directors to one size means, it may be great for the top shooters and shitty for the lower ranks or great for the lower ranks and not worth the effort for the better shooters.
To be clear I did not say limit it to one size. I said a range of size. A min/max for a said yardage. That way you have options in size to use.
It would seem like that but, we don't tend to make life so difficult when it comes time to try something different & see what happens.So your club is full of Yanks too?
You can do all kinds of shit at normal club shoots. Most guys don't give a rats ass & just treat it as a fun change.
Problem is, who or what sets the range. Then again, it can go either way. I can see your point, but I’ve shot matches with standard targets forever, and the really good shots walked away because it was too easy for them and the newer shooters gave up because it was too hard.
But even a range is wrong. 12-18” at 1000? What about all those guys bragging on their sub half moa all day rifles? Lol seriously though going below 12” at 1000 should be done. I have shot matches with 5” targets and bowling pins at that range. It’s a challenge.
Better question is why would you be? It’s a target. Shoot it.
I spat out random numbers as an example not exacts. Idc what the target size range is in size. Just throwing out an idea and an example. I apologize I don't translate examples very clear.
Not mad or wanting to slam you but just explaining why it wouldn’t really work well or should happen. It limits and there shouldn’t be limits when trying to challenge yourself.
Again because it limits you and the MD and will get old quick. Again look at the dying sports that use standardized targets. There is no need. Just adding another level in the already too thick book of rules.
So enlighten me since I'm probably alot younger than most of you and didn't get the experience of the OG days and the OG matches. What was the average target size back then? Say from 2007 to 2015? Another question I have is what percant did the winner typically shoot back then.
This justification for stifling change is also stifling growth. What does "matches are still selling out" mean? It gives the impression that "who cares?" as long as the same 200 shooters continue spending there money. Maybe it's purely a regional problem, but IMO there is a lack of matches and an even larger lack of quality matches.
You sir, have nailed it on the head.
So that we will have a reasonable expectation of what we are discussing
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Sports are athletic activities that involve some degree of competition. We can formally define sports as “usually competitive physical activity which, through casual or organized participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing entertainment to participants, and in some cases, spectators.” Generally, sports have a set of rules, which ensures fair competition. In addition, sports are usually outdoor activities. Cricket, soccer, baseball, running, cycling, rock climbing, swimming, field hockey, race car driving, kayaking, and weightlifting are some examples of sports. As you can see from these examples, sports can include teams as well as individual competitors.
Sports make you fit and keep them healthy. It also teaches you teamwork and how to accept defeat. Therefore, it provides all-around development, physically, mentally and emotionally. This is why children are usually encouraged to engage in sports from a young age.
Hobbies are activities done regularly in one’s leisure time for pleasure. In other words, hobbies are something you do for fun, when you have free time or when you are bored. We usually engage in a hobby as a way to relax. Hobbies are completely different from your profession and occupation.
Hobbies generally include collecting items and objects, playing sports, engaging in creative and artistic pursuits, etc. Collecting seashells, reading, writing poems, fishing, gardening, embroidery, car restoration, dancing, singing, hiking, water sports, bird watching, and cooking are some examples of hobbies. Moreover, a hobby involves an active pursuit of an interest. In other words, a hobby always involves action.
You can gain a wealth of knowledge and skills by engaging in a hobby for a long period of time. With the development of technology, some hobbies like collecting stamps have grown less popular, while some new hobbies like playing video games and internet surfing have been created.
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So, while playing sports is included in hobbies, the key word is relax. Nothing about Precision Rifle or any Shooting Sport can be described as relaxing.
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Sports are athletic activities that involve some degree of competition. We can formally define sports as “usually competitive physical activity which, through casual or organized participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing entertainment to participants, and in some cases, spectators.” Generally, sports have a set of rules, which ensures fair competition. In addition, sports are usually outdoor activities. Cricket, soccer, baseball, running, cycling, rock climbing, swimming, field hockey, race car driving, kayaking, and weightlifting are some examples of sports. As you can see from these examples, sports can include teams as well as individual competitors.
Sports make you fit and keep them healthy. It also teaches you teamwork and how to accept defeat. Therefore, it provides all-around development, physically, mentally and emotionally. This is why children are usually encouraged to engage in sports from a young age.
Hobbies are activities done regularly in one’s leisure time for pleasure. In other words, hobbies are something you do for fun, when you have free time or when you are bored. We usually engage in a hobby as a way to relax. Hobbies are completely different from your profession and occupation.
Hobbies generally include collecting items and objects, playing sports, engaging in creative and artistic pursuits, etc. Collecting seashells, reading, writing poems, fishing, gardening, embroidery, car restoration, dancing, singing, hiking, water sports, bird watching, and cooking are some examples of hobbies. Moreover, a hobby involves an active pursuit of an interest. In other words, a hobby always involves action.
You can gain a wealth of knowledge and skills by engaging in a hobby for a long period of time. With the development of technology, some hobbies like collecting stamps have grown less popular, while some new hobbies like playing video games and internet surfing have been created.
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So, while playing sports is included in hobbies, the key word is relax. Nothing about Precision Rifle or any Shooting Sport can be described as relaxing.
I think it could be argued that “you’re doing it wrong.”
For me, shooting is about tuning out the rest of the world. No phone. No email. No traffic. No yappy neighbor dog. No Monday morning meeting. Etc.
Just you, the rifle, the “stage,” the wind, and the target.
Hell, the rest of the squad might as well not be there. Yeah, there’s a guy with a timer. But, he really just limits how long you’re in this zen state.
Kinda like Kevin Costner’s character in “For the Love of the Game.”
“Clear the mechanism.”
…
There are skills that are expected in order to compete in PRS. Reading the wind, building a stable position under time, and self spotting are high on that list.
Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single arena for which the competition phase is where competitors expect to learn and practice new skills.
Tiger woods isn’t trying out a new grip at the Masters. The 49ers don’t draw up a new play on the sidelines in a playoff game. A batter doesn’t walk to the plate and say to himself “ima try lefty today.”
No, competition is where you exhibit the skills that you have honed in practice. If you can’t read the wind, expect to get skullfucked. If you can’t call your own impacts, expect to get skullfucked. If it takes you 2 minutes to build a position on a prop, well you’ll save a lot of money in ammo; and get skullfucked. Take your lumps and learn from them. Go practice the skills that are eluding you and come back. Test the effectiveness of your practice in competition.
Clint Smith says something like “Don’t try to learn new shit in a gun fight…”
But, that’s not what this thread is about, or at least that’s not how it started. I looked up the definition of “contrived” and am not sure it is appropriate for the phenomena being described.
1
a: DEVISE, PLAN
contrive ways of handling the situation
The prisoners contrived away to escape.
b: to form or create in an artistic or ingenious manner
contrived households utensils from stone
Native Americans contrived weapons out of stone, wood, and bone.
I think a better description would be “devolved and ossified.” The phenomena being described is a lack of creativity, art, and ingenuity in stage design. Every stage is some form of “drop bag on barricade, drop rifle on bag, support rear with tripod, finger fuck 4 oz trigger…). There are very few skills being tested. The stages are watered down and boring. Yeah, the targets are small and the par times are aggressive. But, that only magnifies the devolved nature of the stages. MDs could hang “meatball” targets but use stage design (as opposed to target size) to increase difficulty. But, [some] shooters would complain that stages were “unfair.” And, it is just easier to hang a smaller target in front of the same tired barricade array.
And, at the end of the day, the customers are the shooters. And, in any market, repeat customers are the “bread and butter.” As it stands now, it appears that the repeat customers want stable props, minimal movement, and a test of individual skill. (I intentionally left “skill” singular.)
When you practice for PRS, you’re practicing for PRS. You’re not practicing for a hunting trip, or a deployment. Maybe some aspects carryover, but PRS competition only tests those skills applicable to PRS competition.
Could it be more? Yeah, it could be a lot more. But it’s not. And, this thread isn’t going to change that.
That's the thing. There were no set sizes to even give an idea. Just targets. Sometimes you shot 5" at 1000 and sometimes a full sized IPSC. Position, speed and wind were the challenging factors. I remember holding 5 mils of wind on a IPSC at 1000 at Rifles Only. A challenging target. Don't get hung up on size.
There were other things also like movement and positional shooting that added to the challenge. It wasn't take bag, place on prop and place rifle on bag. Rifles Only had a full obstacle course you had to go through and take shots on targets at different locations through it. People had fun and no one worried about points. There is a reason a lot of people still like shooting "outlaw" matches.
And fire on paper targets in a line. And pistol stages.
Not saying this is all the best way to do things but it's also fun for shooters to challenge themselves and do it.
No set paper targets. Could be a hostage shot, a bunch of flies, KYL circles or who knows what. You were told you had to shoot this or that and you did it.
Same here. I wish I lived closer to rifles only. I'd love to shoot the brawl match. I don't know if Jacob still implements it but I don't like the rule of mag must be out to move positions. I get the saftey aspect of it but from a practical sense I don't like. But I haven't shot the match so my opinion on it could be totally wrong. I like mag changes but not if I gotta do 5 different positions while dropping my mag.
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Probably regional. Living in Texas, I can shoot a match every weekend. And, if PRS isn’t doing it, there is USPSA, NSCA, 3-gun, IDPA, steel challenge, various outlaw matches, etc.
What does “matches are sod out” mean? It means that shooters are happy with the product being sold. And, the shooters are the customers that matter.
I’ve got a lot of problems with PRS, but I’ve decided to accept it for what it is, in stead of “tilting at windmills” over what it is not.
Honestly, R&G comps are more my speed, but they’re infrequent around here.
This is how we used to do things here in our field matches. The paper targets were the part that put the precision in the match. Competitors spoke with their dollars and out loud and bitched and moaned at the tough paper targets (usually 2-3 of the first stages).
So those went away. Then real KYL and modified KYL stages went away. Then most positional stages went away. And stages that used physical activity to get your heart rate up…
Shootin and playing a game that uses a firearm has training value, hunting, home defense etc
Baseball is game, shooting is not a game, we can create games that use shooting to score but Football is a game, Shooting is an activity, I don’t recall any games mentioned in the Constitution ? But guns are …
Shooting skills are also perishable so practice maintains that skill
There's always a training value, regardless of the type of equipment and rifle. One could say that it's like a toolbox, you look at the task and pick the best possible tool. Of course one may not have the best possible tool at the time but still applies solid fundemental's, knowledge of the tool and skill to accomplish the task.
I recall years ago shooting IPSC at Dam Neck, Myself and some other guys used our 3rd gen SW's out of a level 3 Safariland "Rogers" rig. We shot with folks using all out race guns to carry rigs, a few folks doing well with those rigs with zero desire to use the race gear. One shooter "T.S." a SEAL usually ran a dot/comped race gun and some would say that's how he did so well. He would periodically show up with his issued P226 and a thigh rig and promptly spank everyone, included the race guns. That guy was like the Iceman, never made mistakes. I still have his "paper" as part of the program for Blackwater's initial training program. I stuck with using my duty rig, learned from him, "A.C." and eventually was able to equal his skill.
In regards to IPSC, any reasonably intelligent person understands that there's more of an application of shooting skill, efficiency and stage approach and not any "tactics". Of course there's those who would run through a shoot house with a stage walk through and believe they are a CQB bad ass--
Anyhow, just finished my Elysian Space Dust and the hurricane is getting closer to the coast--I wish I could get my Kestrel to pick the wind up when it's that high
I recall years ago shooting IPSC at Dam Neck, Myself and some other guys used our 3rd gen SW's out of a level 3 Safariland "Rogers" rig. We shot with folks using all out race guns to carry rigs, a few folks doing well with those rigs with zero desire to use the race gear. One shooter "T.S." a SEAL usually ran a dot/comped race gun and some would say that's how he did so well. He would periodically show up with his issued P226 and a thigh rig and promptly spank everyone, included the race guns. That guy was like the Iceman, never made mistakes. I still have his "paper" as part of the program for Blackwater's initial training program. I stuck with using my duty rig, learned from him, "A.C." and eventually was able to equal his skill.
In regards to IPSC, any reasonably intelligent person understands that there's more of an application of shooting skill, efficiency and stage approach and not any "tactics". Of course there's those who would run through a shoot house with a stage walk through and believe they are a CQB bad ass--
Anyhow, just finished my Elysian Space Dust and the hurricane is getting closer to the coast--I wish I could get my Kestrel to pick the wind up when it's that high
10th amendment…
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Sporting clays, skeet, trap, 5 stand, and even FITASC are all horrible surrogates for actual wing shooting. They are games played with guns. USPSA? Shit’ll get you killed in the street. 3-gun? Ha. They are games played with guns. Some skills will transfer over. Others are game specific.
You can play rec league softball because it’s fun, or because you want to get better at hitting home invaders with a bat. Or, better at throwing beer cans at bad comedians.
And, here’s a hot take. What would make NASCAR better? Oh, right turns, stop lights, pedestrians, and a bike lane.
But, as I said in another post in this thread; PRS could be a lot more. It’s not. It’s a game. Just like sporting clays.
They may have turned it into a game with less value today than before but it was designed to operate alongside practical shooting
The stages we designed initially came from combat. We translated the actions of the men we were teaching to apply they skills they used to succeed.
The fact they turned it to barricade bench rest doesn’t take away our original intent. You were fighting with a bolt gun
Look at the stages as they were meant to be run, look at the end of the video Burkett is outta breathe.
People removing the training value from matches is part of the complaint.
I can’t tell you how many pipe hitters used to participate in order to speed them up and gain accuracy
That is another benefit- speed and accuracy
The stages we designed initially came from combat. We translated the actions of the men we were teaching to apply they skills they used to succeed.
The fact they turned it to barricade bench rest doesn’t take away our original intent. You were fighting with a bolt gun
Look at the stages as they were meant to be run, look at the end of the video Burkett is outta breathe.
People removing the training value from matches is part of the complaint.
I can’t tell you how many pipe hitters used to participate in order to speed them up and gain accuracy
That is another benefit- speed and accuracy
I've noticed that there are essentially 2 camps to this conversation and others like it:
1. Those that entered the sport in the days like above, when the competitions had more practical benefit and simulated skillsets from the real world outside of competitions. Members of this camp typically miss some of the more practical applications that were provided from the earlier days of the sport. Back when it was more of a "train as you fight, fight as you train" sort of mentality.
2. Those that entered the sport after it transitioned into solely being a game of barricade benchrest. This camp enjoys the game for what it is, and doesn't seem to really understand camp 1. For this camp, PRS and the like are solely just games to be played on the weekend, one in which you compete against others and try to get the highest score.
Ya I realize they just want the repetition and nothing else. Spend the money buy the toys, wash rinse repeat
Whenever you give them a suggestion they revolt, zero interest in improving the experience which is why shooting sports like palma begin to die. Only the hardcore guys who refuse to grow. Or in this case are happy to devolve to less.
I knew it was a waste of breathe for 99% of the participants out there, they are indoctrinated to protect themselves from criticism. It’s always the same excuses. Its bad bowling, having a group of people who don’t mind it being unorganized as long as it exists each month to get out of the house.
Sad it could be better for everyone
Whenever you give them a suggestion they revolt, zero interest in improving the experience which is why shooting sports like palma begin to die. Only the hardcore guys who refuse to grow. Or in this case are happy to devolve to less.
I knew it was a waste of breathe for 99% of the participants out there, they are indoctrinated to protect themselves from criticism. It’s always the same excuses. Its bad bowling, having a group of people who don’t mind it being unorganized as long as it exists each month to get out of the house.
Sad it could be better for everyone
I'll add that there are still matches/events that fit what your camp #1 claims to want. And while they're somewhat spread around the country, a guy could shoot a match or more per month for most of the year and never attend a single PRS sanctioned event.
So you can add another camp:
3. Those who choose to spend their time and money supporting alternative events that more closely resemble the "early days" by being more practical in nature. And who also understand that the PRS is what it is and are happy that it's seeing some success and maybe bringing more people in to precision rifle shooting as a whole.
Yeah the stages in that video are probably a lot of fun. I shot PRS for a couple of years, and the 22lr variant when it was just getting going. But, I prefer Run&Gun comps. For me, PRS is golf with a gun. So is sporting clays. I enjoy golf. I enjoy PRS. I enjoy sporting clays. They are what they are.
From what I’ve seen on YouTube, 2Gun- like the “Brutality series”- looks like a lot of fun too. But, I haven’t seen anything local.
From what I’ve seen on YouTube, 2Gun- like the “Brutality series”- looks like a lot of fun too. But, I haven’t seen anything local.
