So over the Contrived and Repetitive Nature of Stages today

hlee · Oct 9, 2024

Lowlight said:
I don’t recall any games mentioned in the Constitution ? But guns are …

10th amendment…

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

Sporting clays, skeet, trap, 5 stand, and even FITASC are all horrible surrogates for actual wing shooting. They are games played with guns. USPSA? Shit’ll get you killed in the street. 3-gun? Ha. They are games played with guns. Some skills will transfer over. Others are game specific.

You can play rec league softball because it’s fun, or because you want to get better at hitting home invaders with a bat. Or, better at throwing beer cans at bad comedians.

And, here’s a hot take. What would make NASCAR better? Oh, right turns, stop lights, pedestrians, and a bike lane.

But, as I said in another post in this thread; PRS could be a lot more. It’s not. It’s a game. Just like sporting clays.

Lowlight · Oct 10, 2024

They may have turned it into a game with less value today than before but it was designed to operate alongside practical shooting

The stages we designed initially came from combat. We translated the actions of the men we were teaching to apply they skills they used to succeed.

The fact they turned it to barricade bench rest doesn’t take away our original intent. You were fighting with a bolt gun

Look at the stages as they were meant to be run, look at the end of the video Burkett is outta breathe.

People removing the training value from matches is part of the complaint.

I can’t tell you how many pipe hitters used to participate in order to speed them up and gain accuracy

That is another benefit- speed and accuracy

kthomas · Oct 10, 2024

Lowlight said:
They may have turned it into a game with less value today than before but it was designed to operate alongside practical shooting

The stages we designed initially came from combat. We translated the actions of the men we were teaching to apply they skills they used to succeed.

The fact they turned it to barricade bench rest doesn’t take away our original intent. You were fighting with a bolt gun

Look at the stages as they were meant to be run, look at the end of the video Burkett is outta breathe.

People removing the training value from matches is part of the complaint.

I can’t tell you how many pipe hitters used to participate in order to speed them up and gain accuracy

That is another benefit- speed and accuracy

I've noticed that there are essentially 2 camps to this conversation and others like it:

1. Those that entered the sport in the days like above, when the competitions had more practical benefit and simulated skillsets from the real world outside of competitions. Members of this camp typically miss some of the more practical applications that were provided from the earlier days of the sport. Back when it was more of a "train as you fight, fight as you train" sort of mentality.

2. Those that entered the sport after it transitioned into solely being a game of barricade benchrest. This camp enjoys the game for what it is, and doesn't seem to really understand camp 1. For this camp, PRS and the like are solely just games to be played on the weekend, one in which you compete against others and try to get the highest score.

Lowlight · Oct 10, 2024

Ya I realize they just want the repetition and nothing else. Spend the money buy the toys, wash rinse repeat

Whenever you give them a suggestion they revolt, zero interest in improving the experience which is why shooting sports like palma begin to die. Only the hardcore guys who refuse to grow. Or in this case are happy to devolve to less.

I knew it was a waste of breathe for 99% of the participants out there, they are indoctrinated to protect themselves from criticism. It’s always the same excuses. Its bad bowling, having a group of people who don’t mind it being unorganized as long as it exists each month to get out of the house.

Sad it could be better for everyone

Tx_Aggie · Oct 10, 2024

kthomas said:
I've noticed that there are essentially 2 camps to this conversation and others like it:

1. Those that entered the sport in the days like above, when the competitions had more practical benefit and simulated skillsets from the real world outside of competitions. Members of this camp typically miss some of the more practical applications that were provided from the earlier days of the sport. Back when it was more of a "train as you fight, fight as you train" sort of mentality.

2. Those that entered the sport after it transitioned into solely being a game of barricade benchrest. This camp enjoys the game for what it is, and doesn't seem to really understand camp 1. For this camp, PRS and the like are solely just games to be played on the weekend, one in which you compete against others and try to get the highest score.

I'll add that there are still matches/events that fit what your camp #1 claims to want. And while they're somewhat spread around the country, a guy could shoot a match or more per month for most of the year and never attend a single PRS sanctioned event.

So you can add another camp:

3. Those who choose to spend their time and money supporting alternative events that more closely resemble the "early days" by being more practical in nature. And who also understand that the PRS is what it is and are happy that it's seeing some success and maybe bringing more people in to precision rifle shooting as a whole.

hlee · Oct 10, 2024

Yeah the stages in that video are probably a lot of fun. I shot PRS for a couple of years, and the 22lr variant when it was just getting going. But, I prefer Run&Gun comps. For me, PRS is golf with a gun. So is sporting clays. I enjoy golf. I enjoy PRS. I enjoy sporting clays. They are what they are.

From what I’ve seen on YouTube, 2Gun- like the “Brutality series”- looks like a lot of fun too. But, I haven’t seen anything local.

Tx_Aggie · Oct 10, 2024

hlee said:
Yeah the stages in that video are probably a lot of fun. I shot PRS for a couple of years, and the 22lr variant when it was just getting going. But, I prefer Run&Gun comps. For me, PRS is golf with a gun. So is sporting clays. I enjoy golf. I enjoy PRS. I enjoy sporting clays. They are what they are.

From what I’ve seen on YouTube, 2Gun- like the “Brutality series”- looks like a lot of fun too. But, I haven’t seen anything local.

The Old Eighteen Defense events look like a ton of fun.

hlee · Oct 10, 2024

Tx_Aggie said:
The Old Eighteen Defense events look like a ton of fun.

They are. But, they generally sell out FAST. I was going to shoot the team event this weekend with my son, but life made alternative plans.

FatBoy · Oct 10, 2024

hlee said:
Yeah the stages in that video are probably a lot of fun. I shot PRS for a couple of years, and the 22lr variant when it was just getting going. But, I prefer Run&Gun comps. For me, PRS is golf with a gun. So is sporting clays. I enjoy golf. I enjoy PRS. I enjoy sporting clays. They are what they are.

From what I’ve seen on YouTube, 2Gun- like the “Brutality series”- looks like a lot of fun too. But, I haven’t seen anything local.

Where are you? If you don’t want to post it up PM me

hlee · Oct 10, 2024

@FatBoy
Houston area

kthomas · Oct 10, 2024

Tx_Aggie said:
I'll add that there are still matches/events that fit what your camp #1 claims to want. And while they're somewhat spread around the country, a guy could shoot a match or more per month for most of the year and never attend a single PRS sanctioned event.

So you can add another camp:

3. Those who choose to spend their time and money supporting alternative events that more closely resemble the "early days" by being more practical in nature. And who also understand that the PRS is what it is and are happy that it's seeing some success and maybe bringing more people in to precision rifle shooting as a whole.

There are.

From what I can tell, it seems like Competition Dynamics is one of the bigger ones. There are also outlaw matches that probably are more aligned with camp #1 as well.

I think the big gripe with camp #1 is that since PRS moved away from the practical elements, there's no real national level organization that meets their needs. You have to seek out those other matches, which is harder to do given that there's no national level organization.

But you're right, PRS has evolved into what it is. To expect it to go back to its earlier days is foolish. Could they still do a better job incorporating more "practical" elements back to the competition, and mix things up a bit more than the current recipe of contrived benchrest barricade stages? Absolutely. That doesn't require a complete overhaul. But if there is a completely apathy to that because what they are doing now "works" and they are happy with where they are at, then its a lost cause. As an organization, the PRS certainly doesn't seem interested in growing the sport.

But at the end of the day, typing out my thoughts on this matter is more or less a waste of time. I may as well be kicking water uphill.

EbTac · Oct 10, 2024

Is this a good/bad way to score a precision rifle match?

Lowlight · Oct 10, 2024

When all this was starting out we designed a model / method to handicap ranges, distances and scores

It was detailed but we quickly realized it was unnecessary and more work than needed.

But at one time we had a formula to handicap it where technically you could shoot a 600 yards range, 800, even 1200 and the numbers worked. But it was a lot math than necessary

brianf · Oct 10, 2024

I’ve been to a few but havnt shot.

I’m by no means the voice of the shooting community but the biggest reason it’s not growing ..like all longer range comps.

Is they are on average very far from population centers.

How many 1200 yard ranges are there around manhatten, LA, Chicago.

On the same plot of land the town can build a par 3 golf course or Top Golf franchise and make exponentially more in revenue and taxes.

I was amazed when I found out ringneck ranch had PRs going on. I hunted there for 10-12 years.

All joking aside there is no one for a hours in any direction. You can have the entire population of Tipton show and you’ll have empty spots.

If it’s not “1 hour away” so people don’t have to get a hotel etc then it will never grow as it could.

clefairy · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
There are.

From what I can tell, it seems like Competition Dynamics is one of the bigger ones. There are also outlaw matches that probably are more aligned with camp #1 as well.

I think the big gripe with camp #1 is that since PRS moved away from the practical elements, there's no real national level organization that meets their needs. You have to seek out those other matches, which is harder to do given that there's no national level organization.

But you're right, PRS has evolved into what it is. To expect it to go back to its earlier days is foolish. Could they still do a better job incorporating more "practical" elements back to the competition, and mix things up a bit more than the current recipe of contrived benchrest barricade stages? Absolutely. That doesn't require a complete overhaul. But if there is a completely apathy to that because what they are doing now "works" and they are happy with where they are at, then its a lost cause. As an organization, the PRS certainly doesn't seem interested in growing the sport.

But at the end of the day, typing out my thoughts on this matter is more or less a waste of time. I may as well be kicking water uphill.

The market spoke. People think they want to be hardcore, but instead, they paid with their wallets to prs. Let’s say PRS implemented these changes and lost money, would you pay on the X losses?

Now if everyone is happy just bitching not doing anything about it, I’ll be happy to join as I don’t want to do anything either. Everyone wants to be a boss until it’s time to do boss shit.

stanley_white · Oct 11, 2024

One could always do 90 or 120 seconds of burpees while they are on deck.

-Stan

stevieb92 · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
There's a lot of people who want to shoot PRS but never feel "ready" for it. I remember when this forum was flooded with threads and posts about guys preparing/thinking about shooting PRS, but not until they were "ready". And "ready" never comes.

Trying to overcome that mental hurdle of feeling "ready" for a PRS match is a huge obstacle for some, and nobody is really trying to reduce that obstacle. Which I think goes along with some of the points Frank is trying to make.

Not only is the barrier of entry for PRS expensive, but many people don't ever feel prepared to jump into PRS and shoot a match, and that prevents them from ever taking the leap to shoot that first match.

And I'm curious how many people come back and shoot PRS after inevitably getting their asses kicked on that first match.

I was in this same boat. Never felt "ready" to compete. Did a lot of load development on my 6 cm rifle, but probably burned up a ton of barrel life in the process trying to get the smallest groups. I later realized that's not necessary for PRS. My first match I did get my ass handed to me, but I wasn't dead last so I took that as a "win". I recorded my stages and made a video of it for YT and when I look back now after two years, I can definitely see the improvements. I'm a mid pack shooter now. I don't get to practice as much as most people, but I have fun and it's always a challenge. I'm never going to make it on a podium and don't really have that desire. Earlier this year I was able to clean my first PRS centerfire stage. Started rimfire PRS this year and I was able to clean three stages in one match. So, overall my skills in this game are definitely improving, just not as fast as other people. I'm old, so there's that. lol

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

stevieb92 said:
I was in this same boat. Never felt "ready" to compete. Did a lot of load development on my 6 cm rifle, but probably burned up a ton of barrel life in the process trying to get the smallest groups. I later realized that's not necessary for PRS. My first match I did get my ass handed to me, but I wasn't dead last so I took that as a "win". I recorded my stages and made a video of it for YT and when I look back now after two years, I can definitely see the improvements. I'm a mid pack shooter now. I don't get to practice as much as most people, but I have fun and it's always a challenge. I'm never going to make it on a podium and don't really have that desire. Earlier this year I was able to clean my first PRS centerfire stage. Started rimfire PRS this year and I was able to clean three stages in one match. So, overall my skills in this game are definitely improving, just not as fast as other people. I'm old, so there's that. lol

A lot of people never shoot PRS because they never feel "ready". Those that do it are the ones that jump in and try it. But for many it seems like a daunting task, even though they would likely love it if they just gave it a shot or two.

The next hurdle for those that do decide to shoot it, is the harsh reality of getting your teeth kicked in. It happened to me on my first match too. I wasn't dead last, but I wasn't far from it. Someone has to finish last, but it can be a real dose of reality for the new shooters. Struggling to make impacts while people are cleaning stages all around you is a frustrating situation. I imagine this reality dose prevents many from coming back, and just affirms their pre-held beliefs that they aren't "ready". Probably even more so now with most people cleaning stages. Back when I started, a good stage was 60-70% hits. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

I think as an organization, the PRS could easily do some things to address this hurdle for beginners, if they wanted to. I can think of more than a few things, just off the top of my head. I'm not a PRS member, so what I say or think is meaningless. But I do find it an interesting conversation.

Good on you for getting out there shooting and keeping up with it! Being a mid-pack shooter is not a bad thing, you've obviously gained and maintained a high level of marksmanship skills that you should be proud of.

stevieb92 · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
A lot of people never shoot PRS because they never feel "ready". Those that do it are the ones that jump in and try it. But for many it seems like a daunting task, even though they would likely love it if they just gave it a shot or two.

The next hurdle for those that do decide to shoot it, is the harsh reality of getting your teeth kicked in. It happened to me on my first match too. I wasn't dead last, but I wasn't far from it. Someone has to finish last, but it can be a real dose of reality for the new shooters. Struggling to make impacts while people are cleaning stages all around you is a frustrating situation. I imagine this reality dose prevents many from coming back, and just affirms their pre-held beliefs that they aren't "ready". Probably even more so now with most people cleaning stages. Back when I started, a good stage was 60-70% hits. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

I think as an organization, the PRS could easily do some things to address this hurdle for beginners, if they wanted to. I can think of more than a few things, just off the top of my head. I'm not a PRS member, so what I say or think is meaningless. But I do find it an interesting conversation.

Good on you for getting out there shooting and keeping up with it! Being a mid-pack shooter is not a bad thing, you've obviously gained and maintained a high level of marksmanship skills that you should be proud of.

It is (was) a daunting task for me to jump in and try it. I tried to keep it in perspective, since many of the other shooters have been in the sport for years and it shows. I am a PRS member and I agree that there should be some kind of change to make it more appealing for new shooters to get into PRS. Not sure what that might be, however. I'll let everyone else argue over that. With the shooters in my region, I'm happy to be mid-pack. Especially considering how little time I have to practice. I joined MKM as a member and can shoot there anytime I like, but find it's about once a month at best. Just too many other things in life to give my time to.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

The only daunting part is all mental. People get it worked into their heads it’s some huge deal. It’s not. It’s a rifle match. Go shoot it.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
The only daunting part is all mental. People get it worked into their heads it’s some huge deal. It’s not. It’s a rifle match. Go shoot it.

While I agree to a degree, that's not a very helpful attitude when it comes to growing the sport.

Ledzep · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
The only daunting part is all mental. People get it worked into their heads it’s some huge deal. It’s not. It’s a rifle match. Go shoot it.

Another day at the range.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
While I agree to a degree, that's not a very helpful attitude when it comes to growing the sport.

Why not? It’s telling people to go out and try it. Not coddling to them like they are children. They have interest so go do it. You will make friends and learn.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
Why not? It’s telling people to go out and try it. Not coddling to them like they are children. They have interest so go do it. You will make friends and learn.

Again, I agree somewhat. I just went out and started shooting them, much like you and others here.

However for every 1 of us, there are 10+ people that never feel ready to shoot a comp, and it feels too daunting. Many of them would love it if they dived in.

It's not treating people like children. It's understanding the barriers of entry to this sport and addressing them.

If you want to grow the sport, you need to address that. There's hundreds of posts on SH alone of people not shooting PRS matches, but want to, they just don't feel "ready". It's a real barrier for many.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
Again, I agree somewhat. I just went out and started shooting them, much like you and others here.

However for every 1 of us, there are 10+ people that never feel ready to shoot a comp, and it feels too daunting. Many of them would love it if they dived in.

It's not treating people like children. It's understanding the barriers of entry to this sport and addressing them.

If you want to grow the sport, you need to address that. There's hundreds of posts on SH alone of people not shooting PRS matches, but want to, they just don't feel "ready". It's a real barrier for many.

The only barrier is their own mind and someone saying just go shoot might push them to do it. If they never feel ready then that’s on them as they actually have no idea what “ready” is as they have never shot the sport! My response to someone like that is go shoot a match. Should be everyone’s response.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
The only barrier is their own mind and someone saying just go shoot might push them to do it. If they never feel ready then that’s on them as they actually have no idea what “ready” is as they have never shot the sport! My response to someone like that is go shoot a match. Should be everyone’s response.

That's what I tell people as well.

There's still plenty that won't however. Many on this forum and elsewhere.

However, there are certainly a lot of other ways to introduce people to the sport that could be undertaken by the PRS, that would enable people to get over that mental hurdle.

Just telling people to just "show up" only goes so far.

But if we are content with the level of growth the sport is currently seeing, then I guess just saying "shoot a match" is all we need to do. Fuck the rest of em I guess.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

The whole “grow the sport” has been the PRS rally cry since they started in 2012. The sport has done nothing but grow. Now if it’s starting to get stagnant then maybe they should look at the product and not the way to get people to shoot their present product.

If someone doesn’t want to go shoot a match then they don’t have to. If they want to then they should do it. If they need to be spoon fed an invite then they probably wouldn’t go anyways. There is more than enough videos and info out there about what matches are about so they just need to go shoot a match. Plain and simple.

SD3Gunner · Oct 11, 2024

Lowlight said:
Repetition puts you in a box... yes you can increase your score by doing the same thing over and over through repetition. It's called familiarity. However, if you change things, it requires a new set of repetitions vs simple adaption because you understand the mechanics.

If every stage has the same answer, a bag with a better rifle what are you learning, how to adapt that particular rifle to that bag in that situation. Change the rifle, change the prop, start over is what you are saying that as long as you have time to continue repeating yourself what does it matter ?

Doing it this way highlights the gear over the shooter.

If the goal in any shooting sport is to hit the target effectively, than what would you change about PRS matches? Isn't most of the match who can read wind the best anyway, that's a never ending learning quality right there... Im just curios what you want to change, is it better firing mechanism to the rifles, not able to use x y z, or weight limits on guns, limits on scope power. What are you wanting? If you really want to learn skill, shoot 3 GUN! Im just kind of saying that if we are as humans getting so good on products being produced such as boolit BCs, actions to the .00001 tolerance, glass that can see for miles, ect. the rest seems to be wind reading to me.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
The whole “grow the sport” has been the PRS rally cry since they started in 2012. The sport has done nothing but grow. Now if it’s starting to get stagnant then maybe they should look at the product and not the way to get people to shoot their present product.

If someone doesn’t want to go shoot a match then they don’t have to. If they want to then they should do it. If they need to be spoon fed an invite then they probably wouldn’t go anyways. There is more than enough videos and info out there about what matches are about so they just need to go shoot a match. Plain and simple.

We'll just have to disagree I guess.

I see plenty of people that want to get into PRS but just need some encouragement to get them to take that leap off the edge, more than just a simple "go do it".

I think there are plenty of ways this could be done, it's not rocket science.

But hey, I'm not the PRS. Anyways, I've stated my thoughts, with that I'm out. Going back to the firing line.

SD3Gunner · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
We'll just have to disagree I guess.

I see plenty of people that want to get into PRS but just need some encouragement to get them to take that leap off the edge, more than just a simple "go do it".

I think there are plenty of ways this could be done, it's not rocket science.

But hey, I'm not the PRS. Anyways, I've stated my thoughts, with that I'm out. Going back to the firing line.

I Think the way to get more people into the shooting sports is for these companies producing products to lower the prices to reasonable figures. Its rather discouraging to go to any match and ask people how much they have into their 12 thousand dollar gun and 4 thousand dollar glassing tripod, not to mention ammo components and all the other gadgets and consumables. You watch yt and a "mid range pos scope" these guys refer to costs over 3 grand!!! WTF happened to 800 was damn expensive?! I know its the way of the world but 180 dollar dasher mags?! come back to earth fellas.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

SD3Gunner said:
I Think the way to get more people into the shooting sports is for these companies producing products to lower the prices to reasonable figures. Its rather discouraging to go to any match and ask people how much they have into their 12 thousand dollar gun and 4 thousand dollar glassing tripod, not to mention ammo components and all the other gadgets and consumables. You watch yt and a "mid range pos scope" these guys refer to costs over 3 grand!!! WTF happened to 800 was damn expensive?! I know its the way of the world but 180 dollar dasher mags?! come back to earth fellas.

That has more to do with the level of intelligence of the person looking at getting into the sport as there is no need for any of that to get into the sport. But a basic rifle and scope with factory ammo and a few mags with a free ballistic program on your phone and go shoot. You don’t need all the gadgets or $5000 scopes and $12000 rifles you see on you tube and just starting you can borrow some bags to try at the match. Thinking they need that is their not doing enough research and/or using it for a reason not to go.

SD3Gunner · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
That has more to do with the level of intelligence of the person looking at getting into the sport as there is no need for any of that to get into the sport. But a basic rifle and scope with factory ammo and a few mags with a free ballistic program on your phone and go shoot. You don’t need all the gadgets or $5000 scopes and $12000 rifles you see on you tube and just starting you can borrow some bags to try at the match. Thinking they need that is their not doing enough research and/or using it for a reason not to go.

I agree and thats exactly what I did my first PRS match 4 months ago. But I had alot of people tell me to be competitive I would need xyz and zyx. then I start asking what it all costs and holly chit man it is depressing to feel like you have to pay to play (well). and you metioned borrow a bag, why does a damn canvas bag filled with sand cost 120 fuckin bucks? This is the stupid pricing shit im talking about. Why because they know we will pay. just like going from 23 per pound powder to 60. we will pay.

clefairy · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
We'll just have to disagree I guess.

I see plenty of people that want to get into PRS but just need some encouragement to get them to take that leap off the edge, more than just a simple "go do it".

I think there are plenty of ways this could be done, it's not rocket science.

But hey, I'm not the PRS. Anyways, I've stated my thoughts, with that I'm out. Going back to the firing line.

How many people do you hear say, “I need to eat healthier and exercise.” And the next thing they’re doing is forcing hot Cheetos and coke down their mouths.

People will always say they wanna do something, pay attention to what they actually do. It’s like this thread. Listen to how many complain the fixes vs who actually does the fixing.

EbTac · Oct 11, 2024

SD3Gunner said:
I agree and thats exactly what I did my first PRS match 4 months ago. But I had alot of people tell me to be competitive I would need xyz and zyx. then I start asking what it all costs and holly chit man it is depressing to feel like you have to pay to play (well). and you metioned borrow a bag, why does a damn canvas bag filled with sand cost 120 fuckin bucks? This is the stupid pricing shit im talking about. Why because they know we will pay. just like going from 23 per pound powder to 60. we will pay.

People telling that you "NEED" certain things is extremely dumb. I always tell people buy what you can afford right now and learn the game. When I got into this sport I bought what I could afford/ find at the time, "I'm a lefty" so back in 2019 it was hard to find left hand components. Almost everything I bought was either used or on sale. Only things I bought full price was my barrel and my action. Still to this day I run a $100 aluminum tripod with a $75 leveling head. Bought my shooting bag used, still use it today, I've sewn it a time or 2. It took me over a year to aquire everything the smart and reasonable way. Went to my first match shot 27/80 got my nuts kicked in and I was hooked. I still haven't bought an expensive kestrel I run Geo ballistics and a weatherflow meter and it's never let me down.

Yes definitely listen to experienced shooters on gear recommendations but don't let them tell you what you "need" . It's all trial and error. Find what fits you and your budget and go have fun. I will never judge a person by the gear they run. I've been beat by really expensive gear but also beat beat by inexpensive gear alot too.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

SD3Gunner said:
I Think the way to get more people into the shooting sports is for these companies producing products to lower the prices to reasonable figures. Its rather discouraging to go to any match and ask people how much they have into their 12 thousand dollar gun and 4 thousand dollar glassing tripod, not to mention ammo components and all the other gadgets and consumables. You watch yt and a "mid range pos scope" these guys refer to costs over 3 grand!!! WTF happened to 800 was damn expensive?! I know its the way of the world but 180 dollar dasher mags?! come back to earth fellas.

The sport is incredibly expensive. There's no doubt that that's a barrier to the sport. This is only going to become more of a factor as the economy slows down.

They tried to remedy this with the "factory" division, which IMO is a joke. But some pretty good factory rifles were developed as a result. Also, there's never been a better time than now to put together a high quality rifle for not a whole lot of money. You can get in the game and be competitive with a ~$4k setup today.

PRS rimfire and NRL rimfire are other "cheaper" versions as well. The rifle costs are similar, but at least ammo cost is a fraction of what it costs for PRS. And more match venues closer to urban centers, so potentially less costs in travel, food, lodging, etc. for a lot of people.

I agree that $120 for a bag is pretty extravagant, but you also have to keep in mind that despite what some here say, this hobby is incredibly small in the grand scheme of things. The number of people that shoot PRS is an incredibly small number. There is probably 100x more competitive dungeon and dragon players than there is PRS shooters. These companies have a small pool of people to sell to, so in order to stay profitable they have to charge large margins. It's just the way it is. There's no volume.

A decent rifle ($3-4k), a barricade bag, rear bag, mags and some ammo is really all you need. You don't need a tripod, $3k binos or other items to compete, despite what some say.

But yeah, gotta pay to play in this hobby.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

clefairy said:
How many people do you hear say, “I need to eat healthier and exercise.” And the next thing they’re doing is forcing hot Cheetos and coke down their mouths.

People will always say they wanna do something, pay attention to what they actually do. It’s like this thread. Listen to how many complain the fixes vs who actually does the fixing.

Sure.

But if you want to enable and encourage people to take up a hobby or something else, there are many ways to incentivize it. A lot more can be done than just saying "well go shoot a match" and then throwing your hands up in the air when 1 out of 10 actually do it.

clefairy · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
Sure.

But if you want to enable and encourage people to take up a hobby or something else, there are many ways to incentivize it. A lot more can be done than just saying "well go shoot a match" and then throwing your hands up in the air when 1 out of 10 actually do it.

Ok. I’m a new guy that is iffy about the sport. What do you plan to do to get me out? How do you get the other 9 out of 10?

SD3Gunner · Oct 11, 2024

clefairy said:
Ok. I’m a new guy that is iffy about the sport. What do you plan to do to get me out? How do you get the other 9 out of 10?

I think we need to start with the school system perhaps. Bring back trap and skeet league in public schools and bring in precision rifle to youth in the same way. I know it seems like a stretch today but it was not that long ago it was a thing.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
Sure.

But if you want to enable and encourage people to take up a hobby or something else, there are many ways to incentivize it. A lot more can be done than just saying "well go shoot a match" and then throwing your hands up in the air when 1 out of 10 actually do it.

What exactly?

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

clefairy said:
Ok. I’m a new guy that is iffy about the sport. What do you plan to do to get me out? How do you get the other 9 out of 10?

From an organizational level, the PRS could showcase PRS matches with an "open house" at ranges across the US.

Have 3 stages mocked up, some "house guns" for people to use, and a PRS rep to run people through the stages. Put on a demonstration to show how a PRS "pro" would run these stages, and then let people run through the stages for themselves. You could further incentivize to have people coming out to the ranges for these "open houses" by offering free entry to 1 PRS match to the first 5 people that sign up, or through a lottery system. No pressure, show up and learn what PRS is about. Just get more people exposed to PRS.

There would be logistics to work out, but shouldn't be an issue for an organization like the PRS that has relationships with ranges across the country and PRS "pros". You would have to put some work into advertising as well, to reach people outside the PRS ecosystem. Have a few vendors come out to display gear, raffle some stuff off, have a BBQ, etc. to get people out.

There's probably so many different ways you could do this. It would require a little creativity, but honestly it wouldn't be all that hard to expose people to PRS without them having to jump in the water with the sharks right away.

clefairy · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
From an organizational level, the PRS could showcase PRS matches with an "open house" at ranges across the US.

Have 3 stages mocked up, some "house guns" for people to use, and a PRS rep to run people through the stages. Put on a demonstration to show how a PRS "pro" would run these stages, and then let people run through the stages for themselves. You could further incentivize to have people coming out to the ranges for these "open houses" by offering free entry to 1 PRS match to the first 5 people that sign up, or through a lottery system. No pressure, show up and learn what PRS is about. Just get more people exposed to PRS.

There would be logistics to work out, but shouldn't be an issue for an organization like the PRS that has relationships with ranges across the country and PRS "pros". You would have to put some work into advertising as well, to reach people outside the PRS ecosystem. Have a few vendors come out to display gear, raffle some stuff off, have a BBQ, etc. to get people out.

There's probably so many different ways you could do this. It would require a little creativity, but honestly it wouldn't be all that hard to expose people to PRS without them having to jump in the water with the sharks right away.

Great idea. Now you run this idea. Do it man, small scale and crush it. You got this. You have small logistics to work out and people can borrow your guns and ammo. You can pay for a match or two for them and maybe feed them McDonald’s.

Oh, you can’t?!?!? But you want someone else to do it? That’s called slavery my friend.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

clefairy said:
Great idea. Now you run this idea. Do it man, small scale and crush it. You got this. You have small logistics to work out and people can borrow your guns and ammo. You can pay for a match or two for them and maybe feed them McDonald’s.

Oh, you can’t?!?!? But you want someone else to do it? That’s called slavery my friend.

I don't understand the hostility.

I'm not the PRS.

I'm merely pointing out a way that the organization could easily expose their hobby to more people, if they so choose.

clefairy · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
I don't understand the hostility.

I'm not the PRS.

I'm merely pointing out a way that the organization could easily expose their hobby to more people, if they so choose.

There no hostility and if it comes off that way, I apologize. I’m just pointing out that no one here wants to solve the problem by doing.

There are other organizations and or forums that aren’t doing what you’re asking either but they get a free pass.

Everyone wants someone else to solve the problem for them.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

clefairy said:
There no hostility and if it comes off that way, I apologize. I’m just pointing out that no one here wants to solve the problem by doing.

There are other organizations that aren’t doing what you’re asking either but they get a free pass.

Everyone wants someone else to solve the problem for them.

It's funny how any perceived problem with PRS has to be solved and executed by an individual, not the organization.

The PRS is an organization that makes money from members and matches. They have a network of ranges, MDs, "pros" and manufacturers. They have all the resources necessary to accomplish what I lay out, and much more. If they want to grow the sport more, there's plenty of ways to accomplish it, and as an organization the PRS is well positioned to execute them.

If PRS is content with how things are, and wants to remain as an organization that is essentially an over-glorified nationwide scoreboard, that's cool too. Keep on keeping on then.

clefairy · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
It's funny how any perceived problem with PRS has to be solved and executed by an individual, not the organization.

The PRS is an organization that makes money from members and matches. They have a network of ranges, MDs, "pros" and manufacturers. They have all the resources necessary to accomplish what I lay out, and much more. If they want to grow the sport more, there's plenty of ways to accomplish it, and as an organization the PRS is well positioned to execute them.

If PRS is content with how things are, and wants to remain as an organization that is essentially an over-glorified nationwide scoreboard, that's cool too. Keep on keeping on then.

The perceived problem isnt brought up from prs though. Why would they solve a problem they don’t see?

They are content. They want to run things their way and ran an international match. I’m sure that takes tons of work.

If people at snipershide want to grow shooters, do it. I could complain snipershide should run matches and make super cool sniping stages, but it would be the same thing. Trying to make someone else do work that I want to see.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

clefairy said:
The perceived problem isnt brought up from prs though. Why would they solve a problem they don’t see?

They are content. They want to run things their way and ran an international match. I’m sure that takes tons of work.

If people at snipershide want to grow shooters, do it. I could complain snipershide should run matches and make super cool sniping stages, but it would be the same thing. Trying to make someone else do work that I want to see.

That's cool too.

The PRS is obviously going to do what the PRS wants to do. That's fine by me.

We were talking about how to grow the sport, and I just put my 2 cents in. I happen to think there's a lot of opportunity there, and the PRS organization is well positioned to achieve what I lay out. They could certainly grow the sport beyond what it currently is if they so wanted to.

I have no ill-feelings towards PRS. I still occasionally shoot their matches from time to time, though much less frequently than I once did. I personally wouldn't run it the way they do, but that's just me. If things are just fine the way they are, then keep doing the same thing.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

clefairy said:
If people at snipershide want to grow shooters, do it. I could complain snipershide should run matches and make super cool sniping stages, but it would be the same thing. Trying to make someone else do work that I want to see.

Frank did. It's called the Snipers Hide Cup.

kthomas · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
Frank did. It's called the Snipers Hide Cup.

One of my favorite matches. RO'ed one and shot a few of them.

Rob01 · Oct 11, 2024

kthomas said:
One of my favorite matches. RO'ed one and shot a few of them.

Yup shot quite a few and also the Fall Bashes they ran. Those pics I posted were from the Cup in 2008 I think.

I could give a rats ass about the PRS personally as well and even less now after their BS with the Atlantic Coast Rimfire Finale. I don't plan to join again next year but will still shoot matches as that is what I like. I could give a shit about points. IMHO it's the whole points BS that started changing the sport and not for the good.

clefairy · Oct 11, 2024

Rob01 said:
Frank did. It's called the Snipers Hide Cup.

Did. But he knows the hard work it takes to not want to run one now.

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