DTACs were hard to get a hold of same time frame yet DTACs are now available again. DTACs are made by Sierra also.
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Hornady is making knockoff/clone bullets (Aeromatch)
- Thread starter The_Steward
- Start date
And IIRC, Tubb wasn't taking people's money for product that he didn't have.
I'm guessing someone will pop up selling 50ct bags so we can try these without buying 500.
I'm fine with the competition, at least with the bullets they aren't "punching down" like they did with the Henderson.
I'm fine with the competition, at least with the bullets they aren't "punching down" like they did with the Henderson.
I think that Hornady trimmer has a micrometer adjustment for trim length, so in that way it's an improvement over the Henderson.
We'll have to wait until there are some in the wild to see if the overall quality is up to snuff, but wouldn't it be something if Hornady is selling an improved product for less money that doesn't actually violate any patents that Henderson might have?
I'm sure hornadys legal team has patent stuff sorted out. I'd just like to see some effort in not ripping off a little guy. The Henderson is a great design, I can see why they copied it.
Good for them, glad they were doing everything they could to comply with the federal mandates during that troubled time.
Remember where we were during that time period. My employer put out a similar statement as did my wife's. They were doing what they needed too and being a 2nd A company they were likely fearing even more scrutiny from the Feds.
Note there is no condition of continued employment mentioned... unlike many of my healthcare employed friends who lost their positions based on compliance.
I'm not going to throw mud at Hornady for doing what seemed necessary at that time in order to stay open under the ever changing mandates... thankfully they didn't have my Governor Grech and her AG running thier state.
Note there is no condition of continued employment mentioned... unlike many of my healthcare employed friends who lost their positions based on compliance.
I'm not going to throw mud at Hornady for doing what seemed necessary at that time in order to stay open under the ever changing mandates... thankfully they didn't have my Governor Grech and her AG running thier state.
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Meh. Could have just done the American thing and stayed opened without the letter.
This is why Hornady is now the dead last resort for anything shooting related for me. I'll pay twice as much somewhere else if it is available.
Consider this - one of the employees (Logan Schamburg) quit and publicly stated he was never paid by the owners of BlackJack Bullets for the hours of work he did. I'm more inclined to believe that the owner(s) of BlackJack Bullets never paid Sierra or any of their employees and but happily paid themselves a hefty salary.
I recall all of this and have discussed many things blackjack and 257 with Logan at lengths in the past, he's a good dude. You can't just order $300k worth of bullets without putting deposits down. Money was paid to Sierra but likely returned after bullets were not produced. That money sure as hell should been given back to the guys who paid deposits. Miles Johnson is the one who, from the sounds of it, ran this business into the ground with bad financial decisions. Sierra not running their bullets was obviously a major factor. But Sierra doesn't even run many their desired lines, id if they're too busy loading 308 and 300wm for military domestic and abroad or what. They likely make more money with .Gov contracts than they every will selling components to domestic shooters, our need are way on the back burner unfortunately.
The entire point is people can't find them. Perhaps if they spent more timing making bullets and less on instagram their competitors wouldn't have a market selling the same profiles?
Rusted on Berger or Sierra guys shooting F class here have moved to ELDM /ATIPs because they can actually buy them.
Imagine having a captive market and failing to service it.
140s and 105s can easily be found. They’ve been in production constantly for almost a year now. Atleast the I know the 105 and 109s have.
Attachments
End of the day, who really cares? Obviously these bullets are different enough they're not encroaching on patent or design infringement, of they'd be getting sued. More options the better I say. If a guy can get these 105s for under $200/box it's a steal. Currently 105bthp is $149/500ct. If this is the true replacement, hopefully Hornady will stay close in price.
$49/100 at mile high seems way off recent pricing.
Bergers' at LGS are like $65 or 70 per /100.
I don't think that's how patents work. I have my doubts anyone would awarded a patent on a bullet.
Looks like they were awarded one for the hybrid design. But, the nuances and enforceability are probably where the real details lie.
edited - I thought I had that bookmarked but I’m mistaken
edited - I thought I had that bookmarked but I’m mistaken
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That's highlighting a very specific internal cavity in the tail. Who's making them? Where are Berger's patents?
You’re right. I thought I had the Berger one pulled-up. I’ll delete the link to avoid confusion
It's cool. I'd leave it. It's an interesting design. Curious if it works. A patent doesn't need to even work.
Good point. But in the off chance it does, or someone wants to run with an identical / similar creation, I can see the merit.
+1 There's this inane belief that everything 'brand name' comes with a patent.
I'd be curious to see that. The hybrid took two existing design concepts and combined them. That isn't strictly speaking a novel innovation by most legal standards.
Doctrine of inherency - Wikipedia
The VLD and BTHP were both widely sold on the open market prior to the Hybrid.
what did Sierra have to say?
I agree with the sentiment that there's no sense complaining about others ripping off your bullet design when there's a demand you can't keep up with. I'd bet almost everyone who's going to shoot this bullet if they had the option to buy 2k of the Bergers vs Hornady would go for the Yellow box even if the price was a bit higher but if only the Hornady is available it's a pretty easy choice.
It’s Hornady so they’ll be wish.com level quality and consistency and they may or may not turn into grey poofs before making it to the target.
Berger 26414: 6.5mm 140gr Hybrid Target, 100/Box
26414: 6.5mm Berger 140 Hybrid bullets - Made with J4 Precision Jackets, the Hybrids have exacting tolerance and near-perfect construction.
www.milehighshooting.com
49.99
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All’s I can add to this discusses is this
In the olden days (of 2021-2022) when I was shooting 6.5 Creedmoor for real, I was using 130 Berger VLD’s and 130. Sierra CT’s. Though the powder charge was a half grain difference between the bullets, they both shot to same point of aim at whatever distance I could point my MPA production rifle at. And, between the two, for what paper groups I shot, did not matter, they shot the tightest groups I ever recorded. Again didn’t matter which. The the supply of Sierra’s dried up so I shot shot Bergers till they dried up and shot a few others, till the Bergers again became available. By then the barrel had 2800 rounds through it, so I rebarreled it to 6GT to match my other rifle and now only my wife shoots Creedmoor and not that many.
So, if these Hornady’s will shoot same point of aim as the Berger 105 Hybrids and are reasonably cost effective, I may give them a try, especially for practice loads.
Been shooting Sierra’s all my life (made my 76th trip around the sun yesterday. ) despite the lack of love here, I have no reason to stop. However, been shooting Bergers for a couple decades now and they seem to do what I want them to do, so, that’s that.
In the olden days (of 2021-2022) when I was shooting 6.5 Creedmoor for real, I was using 130 Berger VLD’s and 130. Sierra CT’s. Though the powder charge was a half grain difference between the bullets, they both shot to same point of aim at whatever distance I could point my MPA production rifle at. And, between the two, for what paper groups I shot, did not matter, they shot the tightest groups I ever recorded. Again didn’t matter which. The the supply of Sierra’s dried up so I shot shot Bergers till they dried up and shot a few others, till the Bergers again became available. By then the barrel had 2800 rounds through it, so I rebarreled it to 6GT to match my other rifle and now only my wife shoots Creedmoor and not that many.
So, if these Hornady’s will shoot same point of aim as the Berger 105 Hybrids and are reasonably cost effective, I may give them a try, especially for practice loads.
Been shooting Sierra’s all my life (made my 76th trip around the sun yesterday.
) despite the lack of love here, I have no reason to stop. However, been shooting Bergers for a couple decades now and they seem to do what I want them to do, so, that’s that.
ELD-M’s are not consistent (personal experience), and AMax’s were a failure…Which became the basis for the ELD series. A-Tips are expensive as fuck, And nobody in their right mind that shoots any sort of volume should be paying $1 per projo. I think Bergers over $0.50 is stupid, same for any bullet.
Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits.
The verdict is still out on this, we shall see. I personally would like to see the bullets I use available and not so expensive I'm telling my kids no more club soccer! .
Seriously, with this economy and all the BS, I shoot way less because I don't have all the disposable income anymore and Berger prices are higher.
If these offer a slight chance to lower prices and are available, maybe I can shoot more! I've stopped shooting some calibers because bullets were so hard to find, not to include the powder availability issues
.Seriously, with this economy and all the BS, I shoot way less because I don't have all the disposable income anymore and Berger prices are higher.
If these offer a slight chance to lower prices and are available, maybe I can shoot more! I've stopped shooting some calibers because bullets were so hard to find, not to include the powder availability issues
I'm Shooting 250gr A-tips because 245 Bergers were unobtanium. I since found some 245's but I have a stock pile of A-tips also.ELD-M’s are not consistent (personal experience), and AMax’s were a failure…Which became the basis for the ELD series. A-Tips are expensive as fuck, And nobody in their right mind that shoots any sort of volume should be paying $1 per projo. I think Bergers over $0.50 is stupid, same for any bullet.
Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits.
I don't really care I'll buy what is available. It's for sure helping the consumer, and might force prices to rectify which depending on what side you're on is "helping the market"
Not all that easy for everyone.... around here they started sending out local police to make sure businesses where closed and if you were not... they closed you down.
I got a letter from the U.S. Army telling anyone and everyone nobody could shut us down including local LE. Tracy ran that letter over to the PD right away... and the guy at the desk said, Kinda figured something like that was coming.
Feel bad for the places around the country that wasn't given a choice or got fined etc... for not shutting down. Made a lot of places go out of business.
One of my nieces is a nurse. She refused to get the jab... Then the hospital put out a memo to all... take the jab or get fired. So she took it. She carries all the healthcare insurance and benefits etc... for her family. She felt stuck and didn't have a choice at that point in time.
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Bending the knee is the most un American thing I think I’ve ever read.
I didn’t even put a diaper on my face. Never lost my job. No sob story. It’s amazing how people back the fuck off of you when you actually stand up for yourself.
I told my boss if the company mandated the vax or wearing masks, he better start interviewing new candidates for my job right now, and get ahead of the game. Needless to say, things turned out just fine.
ELD-M’s are not consistent (personal experience), and AMax’s were a failure…Which became the basis for the ELD series. A-Tips are expensive as fuck, And nobody in their right mind that shoots any sort of volume should be paying $1 per projo. I think Bergers over $0.50 is stupid, same for any bullet.
Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits.
And yet many of us haven't had any failures. I've even killed elk with 147 eld-m.
When I can buy them for half the price of bergers and they tune easier, it's hard to say no.
I haven't had any blow up in the 134 257 flavor either, and I'm pushing them to 3000fps in a 1:7 twist.
Pretty much exactly what I thought. A lot of us had it pretty good. Tell the fed to screw off, don't do some of the things we'd like to...
I know a lot of people that lost their jobs though. I'm glad they stuck to their guns.
My point is that you're expecting a CEO of a multimillion dollar company to act according to your ideals, all the while the most your ideals were tested was being asked to mask up.
I don't like what hornady did either. But they aren't some kind of satan worshipers that need be be burned at the stake.
At least, that's my opinion. Think what ever you want.
Four of us watched over and over as some 6.5 Eldms blew up on a hot day. In many of the cases we saw, they just shed their jackets and the core made it to targets.
Just because it’s not ever happened to you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
