• Frank's Lesson's Contest

    We want to see your skills! Post a video between now and November 1st showing what you've learned from Frank's lessons and 3 people will be selected to win a free shirt. Good luck everyone!

    Create a channel Learn more
  • Having trouble using the site?

    Contact support

Hornady is making knockoff/clone bullets (Aeromatch)

Sierra did indeed make the bullet, but it was Blackjacks design. I shot several thousand of them. Sierra never filled contract orders for 2+ years and blackjack had to fold up. Low and behold sierra comes out with the exact same bullet in their own boxes. It's fd up. Very low dirty move.
DTACs were hard to get a hold of same time frame yet DTACs are now available again. DTACs are made by Sierra also.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taylorbok
🤣😂🤣

IMG_3298.jpeg
 
I'm guessing someone will pop up selling 50ct bags so we can try these without buying 500.

I'm fine with the competition, at least with the bullets they aren't "punching down" like they did with the Henderson.

I think that Hornady trimmer has a micrometer adjustment for trim length, so in that way it's an improvement over the Henderson.

We'll have to wait until there are some in the wild to see if the overall quality is up to snuff, but wouldn't it be something if Hornady is selling an improved product for less money that doesn't actually violate any patents that Henderson might have?
 
Remember where we were during that time period. My employer put out a similar statement as did my wife's. They were doing what they needed too and being a 2nd A company they were likely fearing even more scrutiny from the Feds.

Note there is no condition of continued employment mentioned... unlike many of my healthcare employed friends who lost their positions based on compliance.

I'm not going to throw mud at Hornady for doing what seemed necessary at that time in order to stay open under the ever changing mandates... thankfully they didn't have my Governor Grech and her AG running thier state.
 
Last edited:
Remember where we were during that time period. My employer put out a similar statement as did my wife's. They were doing what they needed too and being a 2nd A company they were likely fearing even more scrutiny from the Feds.

Note there is no condition of continued employment mentioned... unlike many of my healthcare employed friends who lost their positions based on compliance.

I'm not going to throw mud at Hornady for doing what seemed necessary at that time in order to stay open under the ever changing mandates... thankfully they didn't have my Governor Grech and her AG running thier state.
Meh. Could have just done the American thing and stayed opened without the letter.
 
Sierra did indeed make the bullet, but it was Blackjacks design. I shot several thousand of them. Sierra never filled contract orders for 2+ years and blackjack had to fold up. Low and behold sierra comes out with the exact same bullet in their own boxes. It's fd up. Very low dirty move.

I dont shoot 25 cal, so have no dog in this fight, but if that is true its honestly messed up.

Consider this - one of the employees (Logan Schamburg) quit and publicly stated he was never paid by the owners of BlackJack Bullets for the hours of work he did. I'm more inclined to believe that the owner(s) of BlackJack Bullets never paid Sierra or any of their employees and but happily paid themselves a hefty salary.

1729657195496.png
 
Consider this - one of the employees (Logan Schamburg) quit and publicly stated he was never paid by the owners of BlackJack Bullets for the hours of work he did. I'm more inclined to believe that the owner(s) of BlackJack Bullets never paid Sierra or any of their employees and but happily paid themselves a hefty salary.

View attachment 8530571
I recall all of this and have discussed many things blackjack and 257 with Logan at lengths in the past, he's a good dude. You can't just order $300k worth of bullets without putting deposits down. Money was paid to Sierra but likely returned after bullets were not produced. That money sure as hell should been given back to the guys who paid deposits. Miles Johnson is the one who, from the sounds of it, ran this business into the ground with bad financial decisions. Sierra not running their bullets was obviously a major factor. But Sierra doesn't even run many their desired lines, id if they're too busy loading 308 and 300wm for military domestic and abroad or what. They likely make more money with .Gov contracts than they every will selling components to domestic shooters, our need are way on the back burner unfortunately.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taylorbok
The entire point is people can't find them. Perhaps if they spent more timing making bullets and less on instagram their competitors wouldn't have a market selling the same profiles?

Rusted on Berger or Sierra guys shooting F class here have moved to ELDM /ATIPs because they can actually buy them.

Imagine having a captive market and failing to service it.
 
The entire point is people can't find them. Perhaps if they spent more timing making bullets and less on instagram their competitors wouldn't have a market selling the same profiles?

Rusted on Berger or Sierra guys shooting F class here have moved to ELDM /ATIPs because they can actually buy them.

Imagine having a captive market and failing to service it.
140s and 105s can easily be found. They’ve been in production constantly for almost a year now. Atleast the I know the 105 and 109s have.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_5651.png
    IMG_5651.png
    421.8 KB · Views: 33
  • IMG_5652.png
    IMG_5652.png
    301.8 KB · Views: 34
  • Like
Reactions: FuhQ
End of the day, who really cares? Obviously these bullets are different enough they're not encroaching on patent or design infringement, of they'd be getting sued. More options the better I say. If a guy can get these 105s for under $200/box it's a steal. Currently 105bthp is $149/500ct. If this is the true replacement, hopefully Hornady will stay close in price.
 
End of the day, who really cares? Obviously these bullets are different enough they're not encroaching on patent or design infringement, of they'd be getting sued. More options the better I say. If a guy can get these 105s for under $200/box it's a steal. Currently 105bthp is $149/500ct. If this is the true replacement, hopefully Hornady will stay close in price.
I don't think that's how patents work. I have my doubts anyone would awarded a patent on a bullet.
 
That's highlighting a very specific internal cavity in the tail. Who's making them? Where are Berger's patents?
 
I don't think that's how patents work. I have my doubts anyone would awarded a patent on a bullet.
+1 There's this inane belief that everything 'brand name' comes with a patent.
Looks like they were awarded one for the hybrid design. But, the nuances and enforceability are probably where the real details lie.
I'd be curious to see that. The hybrid took two existing design concepts and combined them. That isn't strictly speaking a novel innovation by most legal standards.


To be novel, an invention must be substantially different from anything else that is public knowledge. Public knowledge includes anything that has been previously patented, anything that has been written about in a publication, or anything that is already being sold in the open market.

The VLD and BTHP were both widely sold on the open market prior to the Hybrid.
 
Sierra also called out Hornady yesterday.
what did Sierra have to say?

I agree with the sentiment that there's no sense complaining about others ripping off your bullet design when there's a demand you can't keep up with. I'd bet almost everyone who's going to shoot this bullet if they had the option to buy 2k of the Bergers vs Hornady would go for the Yellow box even if the price was a bit higher but if only the Hornady is available it's a pretty easy choice.
 
Last edited:
All’s I can add to this discusses is this

In the olden days (of 2021-2022) when I was shooting 6.5 Creedmoor for real, I was using 130 Berger VLD’s and 130. Sierra CT’s. Though the powder charge was a half grain difference between the bullets, they both shot to same point of aim at whatever distance I could point my MPA production rifle at. And, between the two, for what paper groups I shot, did not matter, they shot the tightest groups I ever recorded. Again didn’t matter which. The the supply of Sierra’s dried up so I shot shot Bergers till they dried up and shot a few others, till the Bergers again became available. By then the barrel had 2800 rounds through it, so I rebarreled it to 6GT to match my other rifle and now only my wife shoots Creedmoor and not that many.

So, if these Hornady’s will shoot same point of aim as the Berger 105 Hybrids and are reasonably cost effective, I may give them a try, especially for practice loads.

Been shooting Sierra’s all my life (made my 76th trip around the sun yesterday. :D ) despite the lack of love here, I have no reason to stop. However, been shooting Bergers for a couple decades now and they seem to do what I want them to do, so, that’s that.
 
The entire point is people can't find them. Perhaps if they spent more timing making bullets and less on instagram their competitors wouldn't have a market selling the same profiles?

Rusted on Berger or Sierra guys shooting F class here have moved to ELDM /ATIPs because they can actually buy them.

Imagine having a captive market and failing to service it.
ELD-M’s are not consistent (personal experience), and AMax’s were a failure…Which became the basis for the ELD series. A-Tips are expensive as fuck, And nobody in their right mind that shoots any sort of volume should be paying $1 per projo. I think Bergers over $0.50 is stupid, same for any bullet.

Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits. 🤣😂🤣

IMG_3372.jpeg
 
The verdict is still out on this, we shall see. I personally would like to see the bullets I use available and not so expensive I'm telling my kids no more club soccer! 🤣.
Seriously, with this economy and all the BS, I shoot way less because I don't have all the disposable income anymore and Berger prices are higher.

If these offer a slight chance to lower prices and are available, maybe I can shoot more! I've stopped shooting some calibers because bullets were so hard to find, not to include the powder availability issues
 
ELD-M’s are not consistent (personal experience), and AMax’s were a failure…Which became the basis for the ELD series. A-Tips are expensive as fuck, And nobody in their right mind that shoots any sort of volume should be paying $1 per projo. I think Bergers over $0.50 is stupid, same for any bullet.

Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits. 🤣😂🤣
I'm Shooting 250gr A-tips because 245 Bergers were unobtanium. I since found some 245's but I have a stock pile of A-tips also.
I don't really care I'll buy what is available. It's for sure helping the consumer, and might force prices to rectify which depending on what side you're on is "helping the market"
 
Meh. Could have just done the American thing and stayed opened without the letter.
Not all that easy for everyone.... around here they started sending out local police to make sure businesses where closed and if you were not... they closed you down.

I got a letter from the U.S. Army telling anyone and everyone nobody could shut us down including local LE. Tracy ran that letter over to the PD right away... and the guy at the desk said, Kinda figured something like that was coming.

Feel bad for the places around the country that wasn't given a choice or got fined etc... for not shutting down. Made a lot of places go out of business.

One of my nieces is a nurse. She refused to get the jab... Then the hospital put out a memo to all... take the jab or get fired. So she took it. She carries all the healthcare insurance and benefits etc... for her family. She felt stuck and didn't have a choice at that point in time.
 
Last edited:
I didn’t even put a diaper on my face. Never lost my job. No sob story. It’s amazing how people back the fuck off of you when you actually stand up for yourself.
I told my boss if the company mandated the vax or wearing masks, he better start interviewing new candidates for my job right now, and get ahead of the game. Needless to say, things turned out just fine.
 
ELD-M’s are not consistent (personal experience), and AMax’s were a failure…Which became the basis for the ELD series. A-Tips are expensive as fuck, And nobody in their right mind that shoots any sort of volume should be paying $1 per projo. I think Bergers over $0.50 is stupid, same for any bullet.

Imagine a grown man justifying a company ripping off another, then trying to pretend they’re helping the market, when it’s all about profits. 🤣😂🤣


And yet many of us haven't had any failures. I've even killed elk with 147 eld-m.

When I can buy them for half the price of bergers and they tune easier, it's hard to say no.

I haven't had any blow up in the 134 257 flavor either, and I'm pushing them to 3000fps in a 1:7 twist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DarinC
I didn’t even put a diaper on my face. Never lost my job. No sob story. It’s amazing how people back the fuck off of you when you actually stand up for yourself.
Did that go the way you'd hoped it would?
Pretty much exactly what I thought. A lot of us had it pretty good. Tell the fed to screw off, don't do some of the things we'd like to...

I know a lot of people that lost their jobs though. I'm glad they stuck to their guns.

My point is that you're expecting a CEO of a multimillion dollar company to act according to your ideals, all the while the most your ideals were tested was being asked to mask up.

I don't like what hornady did either. But they aren't some kind of satan worshipers that need be be burned at the stake.

At least, that's my opinion. Think what ever you want.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lash
And yet many of us haven't had any failures. I've even killed elk with 147 eld-m.

When I can buy them for half the price of bergers and they tune easier, it's hard to say no.

I haven't had any blow up in the 134 257 flavor either, and I'm pushing them to 3000fps in a 1:7 twist.
Four of us watched over and over as some 6.5 Eldms blew up on a hot day. In many of the cases we saw, they just shed their jackets and the core made it to targets.

Just because it’s not ever happened to you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
 
And yet many of us haven't had any failures. I've even killed elk with 147 eld-m.

When I can buy them for half the price of bergers and they tune easier, it's hard to say no.

I haven't had any blow up in the 134 257 flavor either, and I'm pushing them to 3000fps in a 1:7 twist.
I've smoked more than a few 250gr A-tips
 
  • Haha
Reactions: lash and FuhQ