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75 Degree Bolts are landing
- Thread starter Lowlight
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Regarding IonBond, we are learning more and working to make it a standard option. Just takes a bit of time to verify results and put the path for customers in place.
Ian already knows how I feel about this next bit but for the sake of others, Kelbly Actions is among the best in the business. I've used them exclusively and successfully for my BR guns. Since Defiance doesn't make an NBRSA legal BR action, I'd use my Kelbly's today if I was actively shooting BR.
Ian is also right about how nitride effects tool marks. However, it also changes how things look in different light and at a distance. When you get up close, all finish imperfections are easy to spot (especially if you know what to look for). But from a slight distance, nitride acts like a concealer just like makeup over a facial blemish. You can still see the facial blemish, but it is lessened by the coverup.
Also, not all action brands who nitride everything have tool mark issues. I mention it only because Defiance gets asked why we don't offer nitride for free (as a standard option). We don't offer it for free because it isn't required for our process. It is entirely a customer option.
There is still a cost. Even the brands who say they don't charge, include it in their costing math. The customer still pays for it. You just don't see it like credit card fees. Since for us it is a customer's choice, the cost is also, optional.
Ian already knows how I feel about this next bit but for the sake of others, Kelbly Actions is among the best in the business. I've used them exclusively and successfully for my BR guns. Since Defiance doesn't make an NBRSA legal BR action, I'd use my Kelbly's today if I was actively shooting BR.
Ian is also right about how nitride effects tool marks. However, it also changes how things look in different light and at a distance. When you get up close, all finish imperfections are easy to spot (especially if you know what to look for). But from a slight distance, nitride acts like a concealer just like makeup over a facial blemish. You can still see the facial blemish, but it is lessened by the coverup.
Also, not all action brands who nitride everything have tool mark issues. I mention it only because Defiance gets asked why we don't offer nitride for free (as a standard option). We don't offer it for free because it isn't required for our process. It is entirely a customer option.
There is still a cost. Even the brands who say they don't charge, include it in their costing math. The customer still pays for it. You just don't see it like credit card fees. Since for us it is a customer's choice, the cost is also, optional.
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We are working on a modified CRF. It will be able to run on any model, but we are doing the development work on a Deviant. We are in the final stages of testing but for this one the testing is extensive. I don't expect this to see the light of day until 2025.
We've added a 3-position safety option to the Rebel (available now). I expect that in time, the CRF will be available on the Rebel but at first it will come out on the Deviant.
-Eric
Keep your eyes open for announcements after the first of the year. Conceptually, this version is doable in the other models. We will take it one at a time. When we can prove it also in the other models you will see it become an option.
The AnTi was discontinued. Their "sales pitch" for that comparision/pricepoint is probably the Classic, it's 22.4 oz and has an MSRP of $990. But, you can get it cheaper if you shop around.
It hasn't. The the bolt handle location is changed. Rather than having full lug contact as in a 90 it'll have part of the lugs not in contact so as to achieve the 75 degree throw.
If you have a serious pressure issue and the lugs get set back you'll have part of the lugs set rather than all, if that makes sense.
If you have a serious pressure issue and the lugs get set back you'll have part of the lugs set rather than all, if that makes sense.
Huh. Seems a bit half-assed.
I just figured there was some voodoo happening that was way above my pay grade in order to get full lug contact.
I guess it doesn’t really matter, safety-wise?
To clear up the anTi vs. anTi-X, discontinued or not confusion, the anTi (no X) model was discontinued because the new Renegade action is the same receiver with a Legacy (curved handle) bolt. We also have the Classic which is a round bodied pinned lug action similar to the anTi. The addition of the Renegade and the Classic made the anTi demand drop off to nearly zero. Since the anTi-X (X difference is an integral scope rail) is our most popular steel hunting action, it was kept while we discontinued the anTi (no X).
Regarding the sales pitch, the greatest challenge Defiance faces is that the value of our actions is felt and experienced. In some ways you can see it (finish quality and complex shapes). However, we do things that few others (not no others but few others) do in making our actions.
When Defiance was created, at its core it was based on making actions capable of winning benchrest competitions. Benchrest, as you know, has the tightest precision requirement out of all shooting disciplines (1/4 MOA or less to win). To achieve the tightest possible groups, things are done that many who seek 1/2 MOA (or more as a baseline) don't regard as important. The foundation of Defiance was built on tightest precision being ultimately important (which is still true today). The result is performance that is much easier to experience than see.
There is a type of wooden box in Japan that is made with exquisite detail. They even go so far as to detail finish and paint the inside, right into every corner. Most might think that detail finishing the inside of a wooden box is not necessary. Well, it's not, until it is. Defiance is an action which is made to the same exquisite detail both inside and out. If you have used one and have shot any other action, you already know what I am talking about.
Regarding the voodoo of the 75-degree lug, the lugs have nearly 90% full contact with the flat inside the receiver. The remain portion that is not in contact is still over the ramp leading to the locked position. At no point is the lug positioned over open space (you can see this by looking down the tenon of a closed action with a flashlight). Something else to keep in mind is that we are not the first to the 75-degree party.
I am not referring to recent examples from Impact and Kelbly. I'm talking about other firearms made for decades, like the Husqvarna 1900 Sporter from 1968 which is shown in this thread. The only way any bolt action rifle can run a 70–75-degree bolt is with this approach. It is a long tried and capable way to shorten bolt throw to make space for whatever is in the way. A 90-degree throw requires less force which in some ways makes it "better" (maybe "easier to run" is more appropriate) but to solve the clearance problem, the shorter ramp and repositioned handle solution is the only, tried and true way.
-Eric
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We are definitely doing a deep dive on this subject. We are learning that it can be pricey and take time but from what we are hearing about how well it works, making these a standard option for those who want this level of performance seems a natural fit for Defiance. We just need to make a simple and clear path for our customers before we announce it being available through us.
Thanks for your explanation!
Is that also true for ground-up 60° and 70° actions as well? Thinking specifically of AI, Zeus, and Tikka.
It's not pricey and it's a quick cycle time in my opinion.
Sending unassembled parts to them in batches with clear instructions makes for quick turn around. Build it into your production cycle and it will be fairly seamless.
Agreed. I would assume so.
See, the gun portion of my brain just a mere subassembly of a larger dumbassery apparatus asking questions that I could guess at (poorly). But I’m fairly fearless at looking unknowledgeable.
Still interested though.
I'll do my best to be brief and thorough. 3-lug and 90 degree throw actions are similar in the sense that the same lug to receiver flat proportionality creates 100% contact. What I mean is that in a 3 lug, the lugs sit in the center of the receive flat area since everything is divided by three. You get full contact on all 3 lugs (at least in terms of position). Lapping 3 lugs to get actual full contact and whether that is important is a subject for another, very long thread. I'm sure there are several already started on the subject.
In a 90-degree throw bolt, there is plenty of room for the lugs to sit fully at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock against the receiver flat. There is room to spare on both sides of each lug in the locked position.
When you modify the bolt to run a 75-degree throw, you utilize some of the extra space around a 2-lug, 90-degree configuration to keep the lugs of a 75-degree bolt on the flat of the receiver. This is why the direct surface contact on a 75-degree bolt is still as high as 90%. It uses some of the unused portion of the 90-degree throw. The 10% portion that is not up against the flat sticks out over the ramp. So, your gap is nearly zero to very little before you reach the edge of that lug.
We did not do research on 60-degree and 70-degree bolt throws. I'd like to answer your questions about those other brands, but it will be pure speculation. Logic offers that there is not another way to change bolt throw but, since I didn't look at the approach of other brands, anything I'd say on them is baseless.
On a separate subject to Terry's point, a PM has been sent. You have my attention.
-Eric
In a 90-degree throw bolt, there is plenty of room for the lugs to sit fully at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock against the receiver flat. There is room to spare on both sides of each lug in the locked position.
When you modify the bolt to run a 75-degree throw, you utilize some of the extra space around a 2-lug, 90-degree configuration to keep the lugs of a 75-degree bolt on the flat of the receiver. This is why the direct surface contact on a 75-degree bolt is still as high as 90%. It uses some of the unused portion of the 90-degree throw. The 10% portion that is not up against the flat sticks out over the ramp. So, your gap is nearly zero to very little before you reach the edge of that lug.
We did not do research on 60-degree and 70-degree bolt throws. I'd like to answer your questions about those other brands, but it will be pure speculation. Logic offers that there is not another way to change bolt throw but, since I didn't look at the approach of other brands, anything I'd say on them is baseless.
On a separate subject to Terry's point, a PM has been sent. You have my attention.
-Eric
So here is my big question, in the future will I be able to get one of your ultralight actions with a 75 degree bolt, CRF that takes standard prefits and/or a 3 position safety?
I’m an ARC fan due to the CRF and lack of an extractor cut requirements for prefits but if you can make that happen I would be interested in picking up one for an ultralight rifle build.
I can confirm that a modified CRF will be available that can be run in various models. If by "ultralight" you are talking about the anTi-X model, this is where things get trickly.
We can run a CRF on an anTi-X but to do so means we can't go as deep with some of the cuts that make it lighter because of what we have to do to run the CRF. What can be done is a modified ultralight. We are still months away from this being available on the Deviant so time will tell how light we can make an ultralight with a CRF but, we will find out.
Also, unlike ARC, we can't run prefits on our CRF. Some precision barrel work needs to be done to make room for the extractor. The timing on prefits is tight but not tight enough for this type of work.
-Eric
Design an action around 75° lift, don't do it as an afterthought add-on. Why won't bat's new 75° bolts retrofit inside an older 90? Because it was a full re-design, no partial lug engagement. This is poor execution to drive sales, not ingenuity and engineering.
Or, it could be a helpful solution for many shooters who requested this option and appreciate the alternative to a 90-degree. It depends on your perspective and intentions. Our R&D team is working on many things. I don't think we can dismiss their hard work so casually.
Idk what the problem is that's needing a solution. How much time does a 15° change or bolt lift save? Another question, how much extra cocking force is needed to open the shorter throw now that may disturb the rifle, requiring more time to re-align to target? Did you drop FP spring rate to keep lift the same sacrificing ignition force and primer strike consistency? I'm just being devils advocate here. A corner was cut by going to a 75° bolt lift with only 2 lugs that are 180° apart from one another.
I read loud and clear that you aren’t a fan, but everybody is not you. Just because you see no need doesn’t make it so for the rest of the shooting world. Give it a rest already.
I have the 75 on 2 of my 4 impacts. It isn’t for everyone, my son has no use for it, my daughter loves hers. I don’t notice the extra lift weight, I am sure it’s there, but the bolt still runs fine. I have fat hands and like the clearance between the scope and the bolt knob. It is a preference issue, you don’t like it, I like it enough to buy 2 additional bolts. Not at all concerned about the lug contact, basic engineering says you should have at at least a 25% safety margin on your worst case scenario, I typically double that in my day job, but I am not getting anywhere near nominal design parameters, so all is good!
Don’t like them, fine you aren’t forced to get one, but feel free to keep chirping.
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As a multiple Defiance action owner and a multiple startup founder, bravo. Your actions are, by far, my favorites. When the company changed ownership and prices went up, I understood why, but also lamented the higher cost. Now, it looks like you've moved the company into a growth stage where a path to profitability is key - product focus and GTM thesis is critical to that. Bringing prices back down will win you market share.
Good to see all around.
Regarding choices, when I was with Berger, a customer's product options were quickly and easily limited by purpose, cartridge and barrel twist. A few factors narrowed the options to very few and usually one stood out among the few.
What I am learning about being in the stock and action making world is that the options are many and important but for different reasons. When you get a combination of stock and action options that fits like a favorite shirt, the experience and benefit is undeniable. The trick is sorting out which options fit a given customer best.
The most difficult aspect of this fit is how much people vary in terms of size and physical make up. Performance ends up being a function of fit to a physical profile. Without the customer having a chance to try several options, it is very challenging to fit someone with the perfect combo for them. We will soon be announcing a type of solution for this particular challenge. We'll see how it goes.
Rocketmandb, you see the situation very clearly. I did mess up the pricing on takeover and we will feel the lingering effect of this mistake into the future. We have readjusted our pricing structure to correct this over the long term and to win back those who we frustrated.
As you point out, we are primarily focused on what customers want. At its heart (meaning methods, materials and quality focus) Defiance is the same company with the same production staff. We just need to continue to demonstrate that we are also committed to being good listeners at every other level too.
-Eric
What I am learning about being in the stock and action making world is that the options are many and important but for different reasons. When you get a combination of stock and action options that fits like a favorite shirt, the experience and benefit is undeniable. The trick is sorting out which options fit a given customer best.
The most difficult aspect of this fit is how much people vary in terms of size and physical make up. Performance ends up being a function of fit to a physical profile. Without the customer having a chance to try several options, it is very challenging to fit someone with the perfect combo for them. We will soon be announcing a type of solution for this particular challenge. We'll see how it goes.
Rocketmandb, you see the situation very clearly. I did mess up the pricing on takeover and we will feel the lingering effect of this mistake into the future. We have readjusted our pricing structure to correct this over the long term and to win back those who we frustrated.
As you point out, we are primarily focused on what customers want. At its heart (meaning methods, materials and quality focus) Defiance is the same company with the same production staff. We just need to continue to demonstrate that we are also committed to being good listeners at every other level too.
-Eric
