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Stop all that prep, oh and seating tests are bullshit, love Hornady
- Thread starter Im2bent
- Start date
As previously reported, I prefer 21 shots, but in 7 three shot groups. We might be talking apples to apples or apples to dried plums, but my thoughts, a pattern can be determined (Pun not intended) and pulled or bad shots excluded. However, if five of the seven groups are not VERY consistent, then one could conclude that the load, rifle combination was not compatible. I look at this as an older shooter, who sure enough, will pull a shot every now and then, but I want to know what my rifle/load is capable of. Seeing a very tight, large group, with one or maybe two or more shots well out of the group, does not tell me if I made a bad shot(s) or if the grouping is not what it should be.
Not that long ago, while testing, I shot the mythical one hole group. (0.13 group size.) However, the group before it was over an inch. Third group was closer to two inches. It happens. Moving up to the next powder charge weight, one group went slightly over an inch, but the two groups before and the three after were well under a half inch and most running in the 0.35 inch range. If that was one large group, I would say the rifle/load was over an inch. However, the grouping tells me, that the rifle/load is quite capable, and that one bad group was an anomaly. Maybe I be wrong, but the loading has been very successful and has shown a very good ES and SD.
Not that long ago, while testing, I shot the mythical one hole group. (0.13 group size.) However, the group before it was over an inch. Third group was closer to two inches. It happens. Moving up to the next powder charge weight, one group went slightly over an inch, but the two groups before and the three after were well under a half inch and most running in the 0.35 inch range. If that was one large group, I would say the rifle/load was over an inch. However, the grouping tells me, that the rifle/load is quite capable, and that one bad group was an anomaly. Maybe I be wrong, but the loading has been very successful and has shown a very good ES and SD.
Seating depth tests worked for me. I was able to reduce my group sizes from 0.75MOA (average with factory ammo's) to under 0.25MOA consistently. The barrel was Bartlein so I guess that helped greatly.
When I bought the rifle, I tried a bunch of different factory Match ammo's. Group sizes varied from 0.45MOA to 1MOA. But the smaller groups are not repeatable.
Then I bought a $600 Lyman reloading kit and this was one of the earliest seating depth tests.
Then I found a few nodes and this was the confirmation test.
In the end, the rifle shot under 0.25MOA consistently for 5-shot groups when the jump was 0.050". These are some of the best groups.
When I bought the rifle, I tried a bunch of different factory Match ammo's. Group sizes varied from 0.45MOA to 1MOA. But the smaller groups are not repeatable.
Then I bought a $600 Lyman reloading kit and this was one of the earliest seating depth tests.
Then I found a few nodes and this was the confirmation test.
In the end, the rifle shot under 0.25MOA consistently for 5-shot groups when the jump was 0.050". These are some of the best groups.
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Interesting discussion. I’m on the fence about factory vs reloads for a PRS/NRL/hunting light 6.5 CM. Components are not wildly cheaper than many factory ammo options. Reloading time and gear to speed it up are not free either.
Shooting 7 x 3 shot groups is far superior to 2 or 3, 3 shot groups & gives far more info for the shooter to see what's going on.
If we refer to Markl323 target pics (nice shooting by the way) we can see that if we look at where the groups are situated with respect to the box intersection lines, we can see the group centers shifting around from group to group when we compare each groups POI center.
This is not a huge deal for the most part & tells the shooter most of what he wants to know but, if you were looking for a very fine measurement, we can see how, many small groups don't account for an overall shot POI shift which tends to artificially shrink the true dispersion if all the groups were counted as one large group.
This why I much prefer 10 shot groups. Ten shot groups are overall easier to work with & they reveal a slightly more honest account of the situation.
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To be sure, when testing, unless things go really awry early on, I make it at least 21 shots, in 3 shot groups. The three, 3 shot groups demonstrated such bad results that I simply felt it was worthless to continue printing good shotgun patterns than obtaining decent data.
Yeah, I reckon most of the time that would be the case but sometimes, it's hard to tell whether or not the rifle just threw the worst 2 or 3 shots in a row or, if it's a trend.
It's a hard call, I know.
I must say though, it's really good to see you guys doing some decent testing. It shows you understand what's going on & that's very satisfying &, your results can be trusted.
I can't speak highly enough of your efforts.
I can't speak highly enough of your efforts.
OK …..
If you compare me to most reloaders especially here , I’m a rough heathen .
I don’t clean my Brass other than a wipe down with brake cleaner on a clean rag , I don’t anneal , I don’t clean primer pockets.
I use Forster full length dies and a Wilson seater die in an arbor press .
I achieve single didgit SD’s in my 6.5 CM and 6x45 .
Recently a friend was hassling me about my process so I offered up a challenge.
He gave me 30 fired cases ( Norma ) from his 6.5 CM , the tub of powder he was using , projectiles , the primers and the load data from his load .
I went home and assembled the 30 rounds my way .
When we test fired my rounds his Rifle actually shot a fraction better ( 6 x 5 shot groups averaged 0.477 , as opposed to his 0.510 )
Now I’m not saying my way is better ( to small of a sample size ) but it certainly isn’t worse.
Then he said …. Yeh but that’s only one firing and as time goes on the cases will get dirtier and then you’ll see a different.
So I said lets do it again for another 3 times .
Result still has me in front by a very slim margin .
He suggested that we keep going for at least another 3 times ……. I suggested he finds someone else to do his reloading for free .
If you compare me to most reloaders especially here , I’m a rough heathen .
I don’t clean my Brass other than a wipe down with brake cleaner on a clean rag , I don’t anneal , I don’t clean primer pockets.
I use Forster full length dies and a Wilson seater die in an arbor press .
I achieve single didgit SD’s in my 6.5 CM and 6x45 .
Recently a friend was hassling me about my process so I offered up a challenge.
He gave me 30 fired cases ( Norma ) from his 6.5 CM , the tub of powder he was using , projectiles , the primers and the load data from his load .
I went home and assembled the 30 rounds my way .
When we test fired my rounds his Rifle actually shot a fraction better ( 6 x 5 shot groups averaged 0.477 , as opposed to his 0.510 )
Now I’m not saying my way is better ( to small of a sample size ) but it certainly isn’t worse.
Then he said …. Yeh but that’s only one firing and as time goes on the cases will get dirtier and then you’ll see a different.
So I said lets do it again for another 3 times .
Result still has me in front by a very slim margin .
He suggested that we keep going for at least another 3 times ……. I suggested he finds someone else to do his reloading for free .
I load in virtually the exact same way with my two 6.5 Creedmoors. Several have said that I should consider inverting steps 1 and 2. Their logic is cleaning after annealing on Amp leaves behind oxidation that needs cleaning before sizing to keep die cleaner. Opinion on that? I clean with rice also.
Any time you anneal, whether it's flame annealing or induction annealing, there's always some abrasive oxidation layer left on the heated surfaces (inside and out); more so with flame annealing. Therefore, it's always a good idea to clean after annealing. So, if you're going to clean before sizing, do your annealing before you're first cleaning, then size and clean again.
He said "there is SORT OF a self correcting THING that happens" LOL!! Man. Is this guy from CA? Is this like leftist reloading religion or something? Hes saying it doesn't matter if your .4 grains off in a load, just toss powder in willy nilly and it self corrects the FPS, so don't worry. Is there a book on this new religion? Is Hornady now a cult? Are they from CA?
I deprime and anneal in any order and then tumble. I finish case prep, charge, seat and never clean again.
