6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
If I am wet tumbling, because of extremely dirty brass, I de-prime first. That tends to allow the cleaner to circulate through the cartridge and, potentially, clean the inside better.
If dry tumbling, I leave them in and de-prime later.
That's just how I do it.
Everyone has their own process that they like.
If dry tumbling, I leave them in and de-prime later.
That's just how I do it.
Everyone has their own process that they like.
Yes. StaBall 6.5. When I shot the 144's the load was wrong. It ran 2755. In between my windows of 2660 and 2780. It shot an ES of 30 over a 10 shot string but still put 5" groups on steel at 1,000yds. I just tested 153's with 4350, H100V and StaBall and they shot like shit. Gonna go backwards toward the 144's again and maybe 135's. I know StaBall is good in my rifle with the 144's if I can get the damn load right but I bet 135's will do good with either 4350 or H100V. I'll try to report back. As far as the 153's go, if I was going to pursue them any farther I would try 4831 but its expensive and hard to find. I'll find bullets that work with the powders I have and powders I know are commonly on the shelf. I also tested 230 A-tips in my 300PRC with StaBallHD and Grand and they shot like shit too. I'll be looking at 215/220 hybrids for that one.
I would assume
My best accuracy comes from using 540 & 560 but don't do 153 gr. loads period .
555 not being listed means ( slower velocity and higher pressure ) that's why using VV 560 or 565 is listed . One thing I've learned over 6 decades of shooting ; IF a powder ( any manufacturer 's ) will work at reasonably high velocities and stay within pressure limits ; They will LIST that powder ,as the more universal the powder the higher volumes of sales .
My best accuracy comes from using 540 & 560 but don't do 153 gr. loads period .
I Have to respectfully disagree .
IF for no other reason de capping spent primers removes another source of carbon and even glass particles in some instances . Yet mainly to keep MY cleaning solution and method from unnecessary contamination and ease in the re-seating of New primers . Easy enough to use a universal de-capping die and therefore NOT use a sizing die .
I use a 3 transducer commercial variable frequency ultrasonic cleaner and Nothing I've found cleans better or quicker , From funky UGLY to Super clean inside and out in 3.5 minutes or less for Normal cases
Old days : mercury fulminate, lead azide, the lead salts of picric acid, a number of perchlorates, tetracene, mixtures of potassium chlorate with red phosphorus, the tartarates and oxalates of mercury and silver, and various other substances were used .
Now days not so much as lead free " Green Primers " are now common place but some do attract WATER !. They contain diazodinitrophenol or DDNP and barium nitrate for the O2 or oxidizer .
Other Primer compositions are comprising of diazodinitrophenol or potassium dinitrobenzofuroxane, tetracene, nitrate ester fuel and strontium nitrate.
Those mixtures are prepared by hydrating anhydrous strontium nitrate by dissolving in warm water and thereafter cooling solution to obtain crystals of the tetrahydrate. These crystals are mixed with other components to form the primer composition.
Bosnian ( Ginex ) primers may still be made with lead styphnate in their primers ?. They say not but then this is what they list ??
We produce various types of initiating explosives and chemicals:
- lead azide
- lead styphnate
- lead cresylate
- lead dinitroreosorcinate
- diazodinitrophenol
- tetrazene
- mercury fulminate
- lead peroxide
- lead nitrate
- lead acetate
- trinitroresorcine
- sodium azide
- barium chromate
- barium nitrate
- barium oxide
Original once fired 1942 LC & SL M2 cases ,which set outside for 63 years or more, before I acquired them and cleaned them . Reloaded and fired #50 times ,partial annealed every 4 Th. firing and haven't lost any other than the one's I cut to get an accurate wall thickness measure on . Not a single torn or chipped rim from the extractors ,which speaks Volumes for case composition and work hardening of the body and base
ALL were loaded within 1.0 Gr. of maximum listed IMR 4064 loads for M1 Garands . And had I realized at the time the damn trunion was stripped on MY Beater ,I could have had a NICE looking paper plate with a 150 Yd. great grouping ,as all 8 are there just low .
Attachments
This is why I decap all shot cases after I get back from the range, even if I put them right back in the box, because I'm not going to be cleaning them right away, or for a while, because I clean in batches to keep brass lots together for specific rifles. I have found that removing spent primers from fired cases removes the chance of contamination corrosion for the other loaded ammo in the box.I Have to respectfully disagree .
IF for no other reason de capping spent primers removes another source of carbon and even glass particles in some instances . Yet mainly to keep MY cleaning solution and method from unnecessary contamination and ease in the re-seating of New primers . Easy enough to use a universal de-capping die and therefore NOT use a sizing die .
I use a 3 transducer commercial variable frequency ultrasonic cleaner and Nothing I've found cleans better or quicker , From funky UGLY to Super clean inside and out in 3.5 minutes or less for Normal cases
Old days : mercury fulminate, lead azide, the lead salts of picric acid, a number of perchlorates, tetracene, mixtures of potassium chlorate with red phosphorus, the tartarates and oxalates of mercury and silver, and various other substances were used .
Now days not so much as lead free " Green Primers " are now common place but some do attract WATER !. They contain diazodinitrophenol or DDNP and barium nitrate for the O2 or oxidizer .
Other Primer compositions are comprising of diazodinitrophenol or potassium dinitrobenzofuroxane, tetracene, nitrate ester fuel and strontium nitrate.
Those mixtures are prepared by hydrating anhydrous strontium nitrate by dissolving in warm water and thereafter cooling solution to obtain crystals of the tetrahydrate. These crystals are mixed with other components to form the primer composition.
Bosnian ( Ginex ) primers may still be made with lead styphnate in their primers ?. They say not but then this is what they list ??
We produce various types of initiating explosives and chemicals:
- lead azide
- lead styphnate
- lead cresylate
- lead dinitroreosorcinate
- diazodinitrophenol
- tetrazene
- mercury fulminate
- lead peroxide
- lead nitrate
- lead acetate
- trinitroresorcine
- sodium azide
- barium chromate
- barium nitrate
- barium oxide
Original once fired 1942 LC & SL M2 cases ,which set outside for 63 years or more, before I acquired them and cleaned them . Reloaded and fired #50 times ,partial annealed every 4 Th. firing and haven't lost any other than the one's I cut to get an accurate wall thickness measure on . Not a single torn or chipped rim from the extractors ,which speaks Volumes for case composition and work hardening of the body and base
ALL were loaded within 1.0 Gr. of maximum listed IMR 4064 loads for M1 Garands . And had I realized at the time the damn trunion was stripped on MY Beater ,I could have had a NICE looking paper plate with a 150 Yd. great grouping ,as all 8 are there just low .
I Have to respectfully disagree .
IF for no other reason de capping spent primers removes another source of carbon and even glass particles in some instances . Yet mainly to keep MY cleaning solution and method from unnecessary contamination and ease in the re-seating of New primers . Easy enough to use a universal de-capping die and therefore NOT use a sizing die .
I use a 3 transducer commercial variable frequency ultrasonic cleaner and Nothing I've found cleans better or quicker , From funky UGLY to Super clean inside and out in 3.5 minutes or less for Normal cases
Old days : mercury fulminate, lead azide, the lead salts of picric acid, a number of perchlorates, tetracene, mixtures of potassium chlorate with red phosphorus, the tartarates and oxalates of mercury and silver, and various other substances were used .
Now days not so much as lead free " Green Primers " are now common place but some do attract WATER !. They contain diazodinitrophenol or DDNP and barium nitrate for the O2 or oxidizer .
Other Primer compositions are comprising of diazodinitrophenol or potassium dinitrobenzofuroxane, tetracene, nitrate ester fuel and strontium nitrate.
Those mixtures are prepared by hydrating anhydrous strontium nitrate by dissolving in warm water and thereafter cooling solution to obtain crystals of the tetrahydrate. These crystals are mixed with other components to form the primer composition.
Bosnian ( Ginex ) primers may still be made with lead styphnate in their primers ?. They say not but then this is what they list ??
We produce various types of initiating explosives and chemicals:
- lead azide
- lead styphnate
- lead cresylate
- lead dinitroreosorcinate
- diazodinitrophenol
- tetrazene
- mercury fulminate
- lead peroxide
- lead nitrate
- lead acetate
- trinitroresorcine
- sodium azide
- barium chromate
- barium nitrate
- barium oxide
Original once fired 1942 LC & SL M2 cases ,which set outside for 63 years or more, before I acquired them and cleaned them . Reloaded and fired #50 times ,partial annealed every 4 Th. firing and haven't lost any other than the one's I cut to get an accurate wall thickness measure on . Not a single torn or chipped rim from the extractors ,which speaks Volumes for case composition and work hardening of the body and base
ALL were loaded within 1.0 Gr. of maximum listed IMR 4064 loads for M1 Garands . And had I realized at the time the damn trunion was stripped on MY Beater ,I could have had a NICE looking paper plate with a 150 Yd. great grouping ,as all 8 are there just low .
Thanks doctor but they are all still coming out.
Just in another step. Seems like you US and wet cleaning guys like to do it and that’s fine but I don’t use those and don’t want to add another step to my process. Primer comes out fine when sizing. No ill effect. And fired cases in a box do not affect the non fired ammo in there. I have had some in there for years and the ammo shot fine and no corrosion. My fired brass comes back and gets tossed in a zip lock until tumbled and is plenty clean when tumbled. But you guys do as you like.
CFEBLK? Isn't that a pretty fast burning powder for 6.5 creed?
Selected from previous testing with Staball 6.5 and Berger 140 hybrids. It was summer in Texas
AIAT
26” bbl
COAL mean 2.825”
CBO mean 2.116”
Remington LRP
43.2gr Staball 6.5
Berger 140 Hybrid
N = 10
Velocity mean = 2790
SD = 9.4 fps
MagnetoSpeed Chrono
If SH reports are accurate at 0.38fps/F° change, then velocity should be ~2763fps at 32°F.
Regression of test data Velocity=88.333xGrains — 1036.3
Shoots well, fairly clean, flows like water in Dillon 550. YMMV. Be safe.
AIAT
26” bbl
COAL mean 2.825”
CBO mean 2.116”
Remington LRP
43.2gr Staball 6.5
Berger 140 Hybrid
N = 10
Velocity mean = 2790
SD = 9.4 fps
| 100°F |
| 26%RH |
| 288ASL |
If SH reports are accurate at 0.38fps/F° change, then velocity should be ~2763fps at 32°F.
Regression of test data Velocity=88.333xGrains — 1036.3
Shoots well, fairly clean, flows like water in Dillon 550. YMMV. Be safe.
What I don't understand is VV lists load data for N555 and Berger 153.5 LRHT's but not 153 Atips? I would think they'd be identical loads.
Try it. If it was me, I'd begin with the starting load for the 153.5 and work up from there. But that's me
NOT all same bullet weights equal a given pressure , as designs vary greatly . Bullet bases , BT, semi or rebated boat tail FB, and in RSA and Europe even hemispherical based bullets . Then we get into bullet geometry itself ,which opens another can of variables .
I've said this for decades ; Manufacturers LOVE repeat customers ,they very much dislike Injured or Deceased customers ( NO value on return ) . So when they omit a bullet type or weight ,it's generally due to excessive pressure coupled with loss of velocity .
Those two factors discourage optimal results and may very well be the reasoning behind NOT publishing a specific load .
One can always " Experiment " CAREFULLY !. IF You feel the need too . However please remember ,IF You do so ,stay 15% under Maximum load data for the nearest equal weight bullet and carefully visually inspect cases for excessive pressure signs ,while moving up the ladder .
While working for Hercules Powder back when dirt was just days old , I remember vividly what a Ballistician along with a calculator once told Me ,while at work .
I have a Test Barrel with pressure sensitive devices ,I also have 43 Years experience and holding up both his hands ,so as to clearly see 8 fingers 2 thumbs . Then showing ME a photo off his desk of a fellow who had lost an arm eye and portion of his skull . NO explanation of that photo .
Doc , He said ; I do this so YOU DON'T have too
Customizing hand loads is pretty much what all of us do . Rifles ,chambers ,barrels vary as does powder from lot to lot . Fudging a few tenths or even a grain isn't going to hurt someone . What it does is put additional stress on YOUR firearm and gets you perhaps 25-40 Fps faster . IS it worth it ?.Not in MY opinion ,as I reload for accuracy and 98.5% of the time ,that is below Max. listed loads .
Consistency is the winner every single time . YOU could always shoot an Email off to VV and ask them specifically and they'd be more than happy to answer .
Thanks doctor but they are all still coming out.
And fired cases in a box do not affect the non fired ammo in there. I have had some in there for years and the ammo shot fine and no corrosion. My fired brass comes back and gets tossed in a zip lock until tumbled and is plenty clean when tumbled. But you guys do as you like.
Yeah ,I kind of figured eventually they'd have to come out ,otherwise not much point in reloading
I don't always wet clean . Most of the time especially pistol cases ,9mm .45 even .44 Mag . I'll just de prime and toss em into the big Dillon vibratory ,with a mixture of walnut shells , plastic triangle , tethedrons with pieces of Polishing Compound .
Makes pretty sparkling cases . I also have SS pin and tumbler . Yet nothing I've ever come up with cleans more thoroughly inside and out faster or better than that 3 transducer commercial ultrasonic .
So when the gang has been real dirty ,into the ultrasonic ,then the dryer or if necessary partial annealing ) measure and trim ? . Then either Vibratory or Pin tumbler . Depending upon degree of shiny I choose .
I prep Large volumes of cases and often vacuum pack #250 - 500 packs as I do K's . Once or twice a year . Ultrasonic baths are mostly for gas guns as they definitively are dirtier in nature
Update: Amazing results with N555 and 153 ATIPs. I only loaded 15 rounds, Peterson SRP brass, CCI BR4, 41.0 of N555 80 thou of jump. It was running 2625 avg with a 2.2 SD and 6.8 ES. Group was .551 MOA @ 100yds. I'll be loading more of this to verify.
Am curious as to what seating depth you've used as the .080 jump doesn't tell me that since various chambers are different lengths. What was you2r COAL?
Using the SAC comparator my CBTO was 2.080".
I can push the 153's up to about 2700-2720 but start getting over pressure signs. I don't see a good reason to run that hot, dispersion/ES/SD's open up and your throat is getting blasted away.
Thanks . . . but sorry, CBTO doesn't help me have a good idea regarding your seating depth. With your comparator showing 2.080, my comparator may measure your cartridge at 2.050 or 2.110 as there can be big difference in the size of the comparator holes. Like there's .067" difference in a measured CBTO when I compare one of my cartridges with my Hornady comparator to my Sinclair comparator.
That's why I asked about COAL.
Thanks . . . but sorry, CBTO doesn't help me have a good idea regarding your seating depth. With your comparator showing 2.080, my comparator may measure your cartridge at 2.050 or 2.110 as there can be big difference in the size of the comparator holes. Like there's .067" difference in a measured CBTO when I compare one of my cartridges with my Hornady comparator to my Sinclair comparator.
That's why I asked about COAL.
I load the 153 ATip with 40.6grns of H4350 and get 2680fps in my 28” barrel. I have a SAAMI .199 free bore and load them to 2.860” oal which is .050” off lands.
Here's my cartridge with a 153 A-Tip seated to an COAL of 2.8605 where the CBTO measures 2.1850.
What's the measurement for your CBTO?
Using my tool it’s 2.135”. That shows the variances in those tools.
24” Tikka CTR for more velocity or 20” because it’s more compact and stiffer?
I’d run either with a can, so 24+7 is pretty long.
I’d run either with a can, so 24+7 is pretty long.
Only you can answer that. You need more compact? I will be running a 7” can on 28” barrels. Ran a 9” can on a 26” before and was fine.
Thanks . . . but sorry, CBTO doesn't help me have a good idea regarding your seating depth. With your comparator showing 2.080, my comparator may measure your cartridge at 2.050 or 2.110 as there can be big difference in the size of the comparator holes. Like there's .067" difference in a measured CBTO when I compare one of my cartridges with my Hornady comparator to my Sinclair comparator.
That's why I asked about COAL.
Copy that. COAL is 2.861 +/- .001
Never had a short barreled Creedmoor and all have been very accurate so I highly doubt you will get anything better in the accuracy department from a shorter factory rifle barrel. Also those barrels are known to be slow so I would go 24”.
Does anyone think I can safely do 2800s with a 144 in a 24" stick? My previous barrel I would say sure. That thing shot any load pretty good and I even got up to 2950 fps with 130s and never a sign of pressure. That's not to say it wasn't a hot load though.
New barrel started showing pressure with 130s in the very low 2800s and just seems to not want to be pushed. I'll be fine with a slower load if it's consistent and good enough though.
What's the sweet spot you guys are running the 144s at? I'll be using Peterson brass and h4350.
New barrel started showing pressure with 130s in the very low 2800s and just seems to not want to be pushed. I'll be fine with a slower load if it's consistent and good enough though.
What's the sweet spot you guys are running the 144s at? I'll be using Peterson brass and h4350.
This weekend with any luck ,I'll be able to break in MY last Build and sight in the new FFP Vortex . Then begin fine tuning hopefully ,as this AR 10 platform is beautiful and will post after sighting it .
