You're worrying too much about powder charge. I load on a chargemaster where my throws are measured to the nearest tenth.
6.5 Creedmoor
- Thread starter Sportin Wood
- Start date
Yup 
my Hornady auto charge pro best $300 ever spent, single digit sd everytime measured to the nearest tenth as well.
my Hornady auto charge pro best $300 ever spent, single digit sd everytime measured to the nearest tenth as well.
+-.02 grains basically represents, essentially, about +- 2 fps. I doubt that is your problem. We all want +-.001 but few of us would want to spend the money to get there. .001 grams is .015 grains.
With Varget 2 grains almost equals 100 fps. So .02 works out to almost 2 fps, which is negligible.
I will try to verify the numbers above, as that is just me doing a SWAG thing.
Verified the Varget swag.
For H4350 .1 grains works out to 7 fps. (GRT)
Although looking at hornady that suggests 50 fps for 1 grain or 5 fps for .1 grain.
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Do some online research... It seems a lot of people are getting their best groups in the 6.5CM with 140's in the +/- 44.0 grain range...This transferred to my own experiences. So, I'm really not that THAT overpressure based on general consensus. Primers are a little flat, but other than that, no issues at 45.0 in my particular rifles (which both have VERY concentric chambers to each other). One thing that might be helping me is that I'm seating the bullets 0.010" off the lands, so the base of the BT sits right about where the wall/shoulder junction is. So, I have minimal bearing surface in the neck, and minimal BT protruding into the case. And when I seat the bullets, they are not compressed loads. The groups speak for themselves, too. Also, if I was wildly overpressure, I doubt my ES and SD's would be consistent. My 22" barrel that load is producing an average of 4-5 SD, and 10 (or less) ES. I haven't shot the spiral-fluted barrel enough to get a consistent ES/SD number yet, but it was speeding up about 15-20 FPS towards the end of the first 25 rounds in that session, so it threw my ES/SD numbers off somewhat for the full 25 round shot string.Could you imagine how beyond max one would have to be to get 2,834 out of a 22” barrel with 140sunless Ive always missed something which is surely possible
And I saw on the Ultimate Reloader website that Gavin said 43.6gr shot best in his .25CM with 131 ACE's, and my rifle shoots best at 43.5gr with a 133 Elite. So, that data is tracking there, as well...
Seating longer reduces the pressure, all else being equal, for 2 reasons. One is more volume in the container, resulting in reduced powder/volume. Second could be, as you mentioned, less contact area in the neck resulting in less initial friction. Just have to make sure there is no jam going on which could result in higher pressures.
With hBn it mainly affects the neck friction and the friction through the barrel.
Physics being what it is, more powder results in higher pressure, all else being equal. No voodoo, no magic pixie dust. No “velocity nodes”, none of that.
There's 7,000 grains in a lb, so +- 0.02 grains is 1/140,000th of a lb.
From a significant figures point of view, it's well past nothing.
From a significant figures point of view, it's well past nothing.
Running Hornady match 140's out of 22.5" Research barrel using N540 averaging 2612 Fps. . With N560 hovering around 2700 Fps. give or take 3-4 Fps. Using StaBall 6.5 and Hornady 140 match runs them between 2735-2770 Fps. Accuracy using StaBall 6.5 is Best for Me staying under 2750 , however MY most accurate load comes from N560 and it's NO barn burner but accuracy is second to none .
Speed isn't everything ,yet velocity coupled with accuracy IS .
Speed isn't everything ,yet velocity coupled with accuracy IS .
I have never been able to get the Berger VLD bullet to shoot very good off the lands. (I use the VLD 140's in my CM and the VLD 105's in my BR).
I would circle back and seat the VLD bullet up to or into the lands with H4350. It will group. I'd try touching, +.03, +.06 and +.09. Shoot 3 at each depth. You will be able to see what looks like it will work.
I drop powder with the V4 as well. The +/- .02 variance in the powder drops is not going to matter. Let the V4 do its thing and chronograph your shots. You will see that the +/-.02 will not make any difference in the ES/SD of the shot string.
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When I load right off the lands, at 1.988 base to ogive, they dont feed in the mag 
But they sure shoot great though!
But they sure shoot great though!Ok, shot those two experiments when I varied from my standard load of 140s to mag length over varget, and they shot like at 1" groups lol. Not sure why this rifle doesn't like anything else but 140 bergers over varget.
Normally, and every rule has its exceptions, the Bergers and ELD’s like a pretty good jump. Jamming into the lands used to be pretty standard for precision shooting, but it is seen less these days. It’s worth a try, but if one does so, watch pressure.
With my .224 Valkyrie it loved the Bergers with a jump of .040 or .045 as I recall. Berger is a quality bullet and, if easily accessed, is an excellent choice, typically. I have had trouble finding them lately at my favorite mom n pop store.
I’m jumping 140 hybrids .120 and there happy little fu**ers!
When I load right off the lands, at 1.988 base to ogive, they dont feed in the mag
If you can't get the VLD bullet up tight or into the lands, I'd change the bullet. You have a bunch of free bore in the barrel. Try a 140 ELDM with H4350 at .020 to .030 off the lands. The ELDM bullet ogive is closer to the bullet tip and has a longer bearing surface. You should be able to run them at .020 to .030 off and still magazine feed them.
I know this isn't a 6.5mm, but it fits into the "Bergers and how much jump" convo. My Christensen Arms 7mm-08 likes the Berger 175 Elite Hunters seated WAY off the lands @ 0.135" off, which is necessary to fit and feed in the standard 700-style short-action (the feed ramp is very long on a 700). I hate that the jump is that far, but it is what it is, and the rifle seems to like them way, and is consistent in these groups. So some of the newer Bergers (the hybrid models like the Elite Hunters) are ok with some jump. They don't have to be jammed into the lands like the old VLD's need to be. The VLD's tend to prefer as minimal jump, as possible to be ultra consistent, from my experiences.
Yeah, I just haven’t gotten around to it. I will one day. Probably after deer season.
Excuse me for budding in but it is deer season. I’ve never had any issues with the 143 ELDX out of my Creedmoors. With that said, there are a lot of mixed reviews of the performance of the 143 ELDX on deer. Granted there are a lot of hunters in the woods best they can do is a 5” group at 100 yards.
What’s everyone that deer hunts thoughts on the 143 ELDX?
What’s everyone that deer hunts thoughts on the 143 ELDX?
I know this will be unpopular, but that’s me.
I like fragmentation. I use the ELDM for deer. Very effective.
I like a bullet that holds together better. Federal fusion is good for this. The ELD-X has been rather explosive and fragments in the very limited experience I have.
Many will prefer this. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much. If you can use whatever bullet to poke a hole through heart/lungs, the deer will die.
The 143eldx has been an absolute hammer on deer for me since they came out. Just don’t use a Berger for hunting and you’ll be fine. Use them for target shooting though.
Scirocco 130 Gr. is a Swift Sledge Hammer . For Elk or Huge Mule deer ,I'd use Berger 156 Gr. ELO and I've also used Nosler 150 Gr. Accubond with great success . Fyi : Not once has a Nosler or Sierra Game King let ME down . In MY humble opinion the most accurate bullet one can shoot should be what one uses . Given bullet weight per species being within reasonable norms .IF ,I've got open terrain and longer shots in excess of 350-400 yd. , I prefer 7mm Rem Mag and 168 Gr. ,as we're OLD Friends
It's the opposite for me.
Last year or the year before I bought 3 jugs of H4350 on the same day with the same lot number.
I've been consistently getting around 2758fps using 139gr Lapua Scenars and 140gr Hornady ELD-M with 41.2gr in Lapua brass with BR-4's
On Sunday I cracked opn the new jug and loaded 20 rounds and brought them to the range.
My average velocity was 2796fps. This is in 45F weather.
I thought that I may have accidentally loaded 42.1gr instead of 41.2gr so I kept 1 bullet and took it apart when I came home.
It was exactly 41.2gr
Nosler used to be my hunting go to. The red tipped ones that first came out in the 90’s? Those suckers would shut down a deer on the spot. Friend of mine was complaining about having to chase deer through Mississippi hardwood thickets. I gave him a dozen rounds of the Nosler tipped I had made up. He was freakin out the next Monday at work. Dropped his deer on the spot. Didn’t even take a step. lol was talking about the exit wound…
Scirocco 130 Gr. is a Swift Sledge Hammer . For Elk or Huge Mule deer ,I'd use Berger 156 Gr. ELO and I've also used Nosler 150 Gr. Accubond with great success . Fyi : Not once has a Nosler or Sierra Game King let ME down . In MY humble opinion the most accurate bullet one can shoot should be what one uses . Given bullet weight per species being within reasonable norms .
IF ,I've got open terrain and longer shots in excess of 350-400 yd. , I prefer 7mm Rem Mag and 168 Gr. ,as we're OLD Friends
I like fragmentation. For several reasons.
CCI BR2 or Federal GMM 210M (Gold Medal Match 210M). Personally, I prefer SRP brass, for that added strength, so I run regular old CCI 400's with excellent luck.
I have a lot of CCI 400's and I'm at less than 2K in BR-4's right now.
I tried switching to the 400's in my 6.5 Creedmoor and 6BR and pierced primers in both with loads that I wouldn't consider hot.
I may try starting from scratch with the 400's to see if I have better luck.
Using the same 400's I've never pierced a primer in 5.56 loads.
Might consider looking at getting your firing pin bushed. A sloppy bolt face / firing pin is typically the issue, especially with large firing pin on factory off the shelf rifle. I have seen this with Savage rifles (and like), never a custom action.
Please pardon my ignorance but is your 6.5 Creedmoor in a Bolt gun or an AR. On one hand, i get the impression you are referring a bolt gun but then you reference 556 and that caused the question.
I have two 6.5 Creedmoors, one in an AR platform and one in a bolt gun and use the same primers in both. Early on I experienced a lot of pierced primers in the AR platform. This was in the early days of my reloading for the 6.5 Creedmoor and i did run some hot loads until i learned better but that ended up not being the issue. The bolt was a standard .308 bolt and after some research, i learned that others with a similar platform were experiencing the same issue. The recommendation was to upgrade the bolt to a "High Pressure" bolt from JP that came with a smaller firing pin and smaller primer hole in the bolt to match the firing pin. After installing that new "High Pressure" bolt, i never experienced a pierced primer again, regardless of how hot my load was or type of primer being used.
On my bolt gun, I never experienced a pierced primer regardless of how hot my rounds are or type of primer used.
Ya don't need the expensive bolt in an AR 10, 6.5 CM just get the Toolcraft .062" firing pin dual ejector, "high pressure" bolt, or complete bolt carrier.
High pressure bolt is not gonna handle any more pressure, they are exactly the same as the standard bolt.
With only 2 alloys used, one slightly better than the other, heat treated and inspected, made in a few places with different logos imprinted on them....it's just the smaller firing pin hole, that helps with primer problems.
I run 6.5 CM 150 SMK at 2850 in a 24" AR 10 with no issues. The KAK magnum bolts also handle magnum pressures in the short mag line of magnums, 65,000 psi with no issues in the AR 10.
High pressure bolt is not gonna handle any more pressure, they are exactly the same as the standard bolt.
With only 2 alloys used, one slightly better than the other, heat treated and inspected, made in a few places with different logos imprinted on them....it's just the smaller firing pin hole, that helps with primer problems.
I run 6.5 CM 150 SMK at 2850 in a 24" AR 10 with no issues. The KAK magnum bolts also handle magnum pressures in the short mag line of magnums, 65,000 psi with no issues in the AR 10.
I may send one in to get done over the winter.
Both the 6.5 Creedmoors are bolt guns as is the 6BR.
One is built on an Ultimatum Precision Gen 2 Deadline action and the other is a Savage 12FV.
Both the Ultimatum and the Savage popped primers and the bolt on the Ultimatum has tight clearances.
The load was 41.2gr H4350 under a 139gr Lapua Scenar travelling at 2758 out of a 26" barrel.
I will try my lower node which is 39.4gr of H4350 which is travelling at 2650.
I bought 2 cases of CCI 400's quite a few years ago when I was shooting my AR's quite a bit. I think I paid $28.95/1,000
Since Canada put AR's on the prohibited list those primers are only used for my X95 Tavor, and HK SL8-5 which don't get shot that often.
I have about 4,200 left and I figured I could use them instead of the BR-4s' which are selling locally for $215.00/ 1,000
Getting a bit off the subject but you mean if you have one you can’t have one? As in either had to turn it in or it has become a closet/safe queen
They are all safe queens for now. Trudeau knows his days are numbered so he is trying to accelerate the "Buyback".
They are all registered so they know where they are but I won't give mine up.
Hopefully a conservative government will reverse the legislation.
Even though the AR-15 is prohibited the Tavor TAR-21, X-95, and Tavor 7 are non restricted.
The HK SL8 and G36 are also non restricted.
There are also many rifles that went from Non Restricted (unregistered) directly to prohibited.
One example is the M14 patterened rifles. Those have just vanished.
The M1 Garand on the other hand is non restricted.
AK's have been prohibited since the 1980's but the SKS is non restricted and can be used for hunting.
Anything larger than 375 Cheytac is now prohibited.
Before Trudeau we could own anything even greater than 20mm
I know someone who owns a 20mm Lahti L-39 and a 14.5mm Simonov PTRS-41.
This is the proposed price list.
That's like saying we will give you $1,000 for your car regardless if it's a 1972 Ford Pinto or a 2024 Rolls Royce Phantom
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Spent about 2 years in Montreal. Loved it. Great food and nice people. Stay the course Stay strong.
I am shooting from a factory barreled Sig Cross (18").
Max COAL (to the lands) is 2.867 measured 10 times with only 1 variation of 0.002 so I figure i am good.
First 100 rounds were with IMR 4064, Varget, and H4350 shooting 130 ELD-M's. Every load shot MOA or better. No chrono as I just wanted to get something that shot decent first. SD's were all under 20 and ES's were all under 30. Not bad for me.
Shooting 140 ELD-M's today I found that my rifle likes long seated rounds.
Again, max COAL is 2.867
My Magpul and Christensen Mags are maxed at 2.89
I found my most accurate and consistent load to be:
Starline Virgin Brass
CCI LR Primer
140 ELD-M
COAL 2.865
CBTO 2.245
H4350 @ 42.5 g
2674 fps
The first time I went out to try shooting the 140's at closer to SAAMI spec all groups were at 1.5 MOA or greater. I feel like this really long length and higher charge is a bit much but I have no signs (visibly) of pressure, and no hard bolt lift. It is as smooth as it is when empty. I know longer length will aid in reducing pressures but I find it strange to have such a high fps for an 18" barrel.
If someone that knows more than me, so literally most of you, has a suggestion other than keep going with what I'm doing let me know.
Max COAL (to the lands) is 2.867 measured 10 times with only 1 variation of 0.002 so I figure i am good.
First 100 rounds were with IMR 4064, Varget, and H4350 shooting 130 ELD-M's. Every load shot MOA or better. No chrono as I just wanted to get something that shot decent first. SD's were all under 20 and ES's were all under 30. Not bad for me.
Shooting 140 ELD-M's today I found that my rifle likes long seated rounds.
Again, max COAL is 2.867
My Magpul and Christensen Mags are maxed at 2.89
I found my most accurate and consistent load to be:
Starline Virgin Brass
CCI LR Primer
140 ELD-M
COAL 2.865
CBTO 2.245
H4350 @ 42.5 g
2674 fps
The first time I went out to try shooting the 140's at closer to SAAMI spec all groups were at 1.5 MOA or greater. I feel like this really long length and higher charge is a bit much but I have no signs (visibly) of pressure, and no hard bolt lift. It is as smooth as it is when empty. I know longer length will aid in reducing pressures but I find it strange to have such a high fps for an 18" barrel.
If someone that knows more than me, so literally most of you, has a suggestion other than keep going with what I'm doing let me know.
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That does seem kinda a hot load producing above normal velocity. There could be any number of things involved causing that. Like smaller than normal case volume. Do you know what the case volume for your Starline brass (after firing)?
Did you mean H4350 or H4831. Never heard of H4830. I ran 4831sc for a bit and you can run more than 42.5 without issue.
I thought he might have meant H4831 also, but that powder just won't get him to the velocities he's stating. So, I assumed he meant H4350.
Not sure if this is relevant, but shooting 140gr ELD-Ms seated at 2.820 oal out of my 26" Savage I am getting sub moa (.5 to .6) with 42.4 gr of H4350 with an average velocity of 2840fps and an SD of 5.
These numbers are averaged over multiple 5 and 10 shot groups at 100 yds over the last 6 months or so.
Last summer, after getting wind and elevation dialed in, this load was consistently center lining a plate at 1240yds.
These numbers are averaged over multiple 5 and 10 shot groups at 100 yds over the last 6 months or so.
Last summer, after getting wind and elevation dialed in, this load was consistently center lining a plate at 1240yds.
Actually no.
It was originally based off a Savage 110 BA Stealth in 308.
I swapped out to a 6.5 CM Ballistic Advantage 26" heavy profile barrel, an MDT ESS chassis because the Savage/Drake chassis just wasn't stable with the 26" barrel, a Vortex Razor 6-36x56 scope, and an ELF trigger because I hated the Savage Accu-trigger. I also use a Q jumbo shrimp suppressor on it.
I’m looking at getting an expander mandrel. I was looking at Sinclair but they seem to be hard to find right now. Is le Wilson any good
Do you just need a mandrel or do you need the mandrel die and mandrel?
I have moved to the Cortina Precision mandrel die and mandrel. I just like the idea that it centers the case in the die. The others I have used are a loose fit so no case support is provided.
I want to size with a bushing then use the mandrel. If I use Eric’s is it going to mess with my sizing? I thought it tried to size and neck tension at the same time, and that’s what I’m trying to get away from.
It will size the very base of the case about .0005 smaller than a standard die. The mandrel is expanding the inside of the case neck at the same time. It never touches the outside of the neck or the shoulder areas.
I'm using a bushing die to size and the Cortina die to finish size the neck for the desired neck tension. I've see no negative effects of doing it this way with this die.
