MPVO for Tactical Games Thoughts/Recommendations

#51
Glassaholic said:
Man I hope so, but I'm nervous about whether or not any of them can get the reticle "right", it has to be usable at the bottom mag and that's something the industry by and large has not seem to have understood as many manufacturers just put out a 2-10/2-12 with the same reticle they use in their 3-18's and 6-36's 🤷‍♂️ The new ZCO 2-10x30 HTR reticle looks very promising, but one of the reasons I mention the Athlon above is because the AHMR2 FFP IR MIL reticle has been the best design I've seen to date in the MPVO form factor. If Nightforce threw the FC-DMx reticle into the NX8 2.5-20 it might really shake things up, or better yet come out with an NX8 1.5-12x42 or ATACR 2-12x42 with some kind of FC-DMx/Mil-XT blend...
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This is ultimately why I ended up selling my Steiner t6xi 3-18. Scr2 was practically useless less than 12-14x to my eyes.
 
#52
bobke said:
Glass
As you mentioned the reticles for new PLX 2.5-20, what is with the boxing around tree in Neptune reticle, and is the Athena G2 supposed to mimic the Griffin in a way? Cannot see if the center is dot or chevron. Sure would like to see a through the scope view, as I really do the the PLXC concept carried to higher mag range, but these reticles have me holding for more visual info before committing funds.
View attachment 8593152
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Those reticles look way too small and way too busy.
 
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#53
Man, I've never played in the tactical games and I'm too old to start; but, I do what I can to stay proficient. Just based on what I've done, I've made a few observations. Now, don't get me wrong, I love LPVOs. I think they are the best compromise out there for a general use rifle.

Still, you do give up a good bit to have that 1x and compact (sometimes, not so compact) form factor. Fact is that a good, sub $1000 MPVO will will usually out perform a $2000+ LPVO at everything but having a 1x, size and weight.

For an inexperienced guy, an MPVO is going to be just plain easier due to eye box and light gathering. I'd try the 2-12 Athlon. It's a pretty nice scope.

No sense in making things harder on yourself than they need to be. My 800 yard rig has a Leupold 2.5-10 Mk4 on it. It's almost too easy.
 
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#54
PappyM3 said:
If NF put the FC-DMx in the 2.5-20 or in a new 1.5-12 I would buy it immediately.

Also, yeah the AHMR2 FFP MIL is a fantastic reticle for the scope’s role.
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A NF FC-DMx in a 1.5-12 I feel would be perfect for the tactical games. I’d sell my NX8 1-8 for that.

I’m still relatively new to all this but it seems like there aren’t a lot of good 1.5-12 or 2-12/16 out there with usable reticles for close in “and” out to 600-700. Aren’t they mostly hunting-type reticles? Seems like the Athlon 2-12 is closest thing to that? Or am I missing some that would suffice? Steiner? But someone said they ultimately got rid of theirs.
 
#55
TonyAngel said:
Man, I've never played in the tactical games and I'm too old to start; but, I do what I can to stay proficient. Just based on what I've done, I've made a few observations. Now, don't get me wrong, I love LPVOs. I think they are the best compromise out there for a general use rifle.

Still, you do give up a good bit to have that 1x and compact (sometimes, not so compact) form factor. Fact is that a good, sub $1000 MPVO will will usually out perform a $2000+ LPVO at everything but having a 1x, size and weight.

For an inexperienced guy, an MPVO is going to be just plain easier due to eye box and light gathering. I'd try the 2-12 Athlon. It's a pretty nice scope.

No sense in making things harder on yourself than they need to be. My 800 yard rig has a Leupold 2.5-10 Mk4 on it. It's almost too easy.
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Haha, I saw your reply regarding the Athlon after I’d already replied. I’ve looked at that scope and for the money it seems like a great bang for the buck and has a good reticle for what I’m trying to accomplish.

However, I saw on the rokslide forum someone did a review on it and it would not hold zero after some somewhat easy drop tests and a couple rides in the back of a pickup. They had to send it back like three times. I’d be worried that scope would not survive the tactical games.
 
#56
couch000 said:
Florida
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I didn't think Element training complex had any comps like this??? Very frustrated with them right now because the times I've been able to step away their 600 and 1000 ranges have been rented out to some private party. I might need to check this out, is there a website for this tactical tough guy competition?
 
#57
couch000 said:
A NF FC-DMx in a 1.5-12 I feel would be perfect for the tactical games. I’d sell my NX8 1-8 for that.
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Been asking for the NX8 1.5-12 for a bit now, doubtful NF will bite. I'm not a huge fan of 8x erector scopes unless done right, usually they are more finicky than I prefer. Still would like to see NX6 or new ATACR 6x erector 2-12 with DMx type reticle, but doubtful that will transpire anytime soon.
 
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#58
couch000 said:
I’m still relatively new to all this but it seems like there aren’t a lot of good 1.5-12 or 2-12/16 out there with usable reticles for close in “and” out to 600-700….
Am I missing some that would suffice? Steiner? But someone said they ultimately got rid of theirs.
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OP, I haven’t competed (yet) but this year I plan to do NRL hunter and likely a tactical games or run n gun if I can find a good one near Boise.

I have tried a good amount of medium powered scopes for dynamic training from 0 to 600-800 for 556. (Leupold Patrol 3-9x40, SwampFox Warhawk 2-10x44, Viper PST II 2-10x32).

I finally received my Steiner H6xi 2-12x42 (STR-MIL) which I’ve waited on for several months and you brought up earlier. Today I spent the day out in the desert gathering dope and waterlining every 100 meters out to 800. Across the entire spectrum I never struggled to make first or second round impacts with in the 6x10” range.

The reticle is quite fine/precise. I think at 2-3x it’s very easy to bracket anything under 50M using the t-posts as a duplex. The reticle really comes into its own from 8-12x. Realistically it’s weaknesses seem to be 5-7x where you’re really not going to be able to use your mil-tree as it’s very fine and easy to get lost in a complex sight picture. But the crosshairs are still very usable in that range (5-12x).

A lot of people buy 18-20x scopes and only run them from 10-15x because they find the max magnification is softer and less clear. I don’t think this scope suffers optically anywhere in the mag range. (Similar to the ATACR 4-16x)

Ultimately I think the ATACR 1-8x is probably a better option for you in a general purpose sense. I’m shifting towards training using this SPR exclusively, and would have a lot of fun with the H6Xi in any match, but it’ll likely be a better fit at NRL hunter.
 
#60
white_rushin said:
OP, I haven’t competed (yet) but this year I plan to do NRL hunter and likely a tactical games or run n gun if I can find a good one near Boise.

I have tried a good amount of medium powered scopes for dynamic training from 0 to 600-800 for 556. (Leupold Patrol 3-9x40, SwampFox Warhawk 2-10x44, Viper PST II 2-10x32).

I finally received my Steiner H6xi 2-12x42 (STR-MIL) which I’ve waited on for several months and you brought up earlier. Today I spent the day out in the desert gathering dope and waterlining every 100 meters out to 800. Across the entire spectrum I never struggled to make first or second round impacts with in the 6x10” range.

The reticle is quite fine/precise. I think at 2-3x it’s very easy to bracket anything under 50M using the t-posts as a duplex. The reticle really comes into its own from 8-12x. Realistically it’s weaknesses seem to be 5-7x where you’re really not going to be able to use your mil-tree as it’s very fine and easy to get lost in a complex sight picture. But the crosshairs are still very usable in that range (5-12x).

A lot of people buy 18-20x scopes and only run them from 10-15x because they find the max magnification is softer and less clear. I don’t think this scope suffers optically anywhere in the mag range. (Similar to the ATACR 4-16x)

Ultimately I think the ATACR 1-8x is probably a better option for you in a general purpose sense. I’m shifting towards training using this SPR exclusively, and would have a lot of fun with the H6Xi in any match, but it’ll likely be a better fit at NRL hunter.
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Yeah, I know the ATACR is really good for the type of shooting and most of the stages we do. It would just be nice to have some additional magnification (kinda what you're saying I think) on those longer range stages. But again, we only have 1-2 of those stages over a two day weekend so it's always a balance thing. I haven't seen a lot regarding new scopes at SHOT but hopefully some new stuff that would suit the tactical games gets released. If not, I'll be totally fine with my ATACR.
 
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#61
couch000 said:
Yeah, I know the ATACR is really good for the type of shooting and most of the stages we do. It would just be nice to have some additional magnification (kinda what you're saying I think) on those longer range stages. But again, we only have 1-2 of those stages over a two day weekend so it's always a balance thing. I haven't seen a lot regarding new scopes at SHOT but hopefully some new stuff that would suit the tactical games gets released. If not, I'll be totally fine with my ATACR.
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Don’t get me wrong, I love my H6xi and for a true scoped carbine role I prefer it over pretty much all options. I would love to perform with it in a TTG or Biathlon style comp. The only models I’d consider changing for if a genie gave me the ability to swap for free would be the 4-16 ATACR Mil-XT or possibly that new Mark 5HD 2-10 with the CMR Mil Tree that was released at shot today. (And half of that is because it comes in FDE lol)

I prefer having 12 / 14 / 16x on the top end for an MPVO since it doesn’t seem like the jump is worth it going from a GOAT optic like your 1-8x just to gain 2x more power.
 
#62
white_rushin said:
Don’t get me wrong, I love my H6xi and for a true scoped carbine role I prefer it over pretty much all options. I would love to perform with it in a TTG or Biathlon style comp. The only models I’d consider changing for if a genie gave me the ability to swap for free would be the 4-16 ATACR Mil-XT or possibly that new Mark 5HD 2-10 with the CMR Mil Tree that was released at shot today. (And half of that is because it comes in FDE lol)

I prefer having 12 / 14 / 16x on the top end for an MPVO since it doesn’t seem like the jump is worth it going from a GOAT optic like your 1-8x just to gain 2x more power.
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Haha, all my scopes are fde. At least the ones that can come in fde- ATACR, NX8, Razor 1-6. I don't have anything over 8x except for an old $300 PA 4-14 that's been sitting in the box for a few years. I actually just mounted it up just to see what that extra magnification is like on my ARs.

I was always just a red dot on my AR type of guy until I started tactical games. Started with the Razor 1-6, bought a Razor 1-10 and liked it but didn't like the thick translucent center dot so I sold it to my buddy and got an NX8. On paper the NX8 was lightweight and 1-8 so it made a lot of sense for tactical games. It was a little hard to get behind so I said "F" it and got the ATACR. Now curiosity is getting the best of me with a higher powered scope.
 
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#64
couch000 said:
Haha, I saw your reply regarding the Athlon after I’d already replied. I’ve looked at that scope and for the money it seems like a great bang for the buck and has a good reticle for what I’m trying to accomplish.

However, I saw on the rokslide forum someone did a review on it and it would not hold zero after some somewhat easy drop tests and a couple rides in the back of a pickup. They had to send it back like three times. I’d be worried that scope would not survive the tactical games.
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A long time ago a link to that article was posted here once on SH so I went and read it. Personally I have a hard time believing it to be true because I've had two of these with no problems, as well people around here would be constantly complaining if they were having problems. It's no super nice scope because how could it be for what these cost, but it's actually really good considering.....

The hope is that the more money you spend on a scope it'll hold up better, however that's not always the case, so worth mentioning that there are plenty of us here on SH that have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on expensive scopes and still had various problems resulting in the returning for repair.

Having owned a dozen or so different Athlon scopes over the years I only had to send one scope back which was a LPVO Helos 1-10 which my old eyes wouldn't abide with which I blame on the 10x mag ratio and lacking a side focus so above 5x I didn't like what I saw. That was when I decided to get a March shorty 1-10 DFP with side focus which is about as good as such a scope is going to work for my eyes. It has pretty good IQ but not great. It might actually be something that would work for you though.

Truthfully I like using the Helos G2 2-12 more for my all around scope because I prefer 12x and the IQ doesn't seem compromised like is known to be common on some compact high mag ratio scopes. To me 12x is a good magnification to use for long range, 10x not near as much, and I never did like 8x for smaller steel farther out when I had a 1-8 on my AR. That's me but YMMV.

Just commenting.
Not that I'm even a mid level 3 gunner, but years ago I shot a local 3 gun match with 30-ish other shooters when using a Burris 1-8 XTR2 on my AR, and it wasn't until the end of the match that I realized I wasn't all the way down to 1x, IIRC almost 1.5x, that was a revelation to me because I felt I wasn't hindered at all. The farthest our steel was was 170Y, then scattered coming in to 75Y, but lots of close and mid cardboard targets out to 50Y. There were no A level shooters in my club and I ended up with the W. So I don't feel the same about 1x than I used to feel beforehand.
 
#66
steve123 said:
A long time ago a link to that article was posted here once on SH so I went and read it. Personally I have a hard time believing it to be true because I've had two of these with no problems, as well people around here would be constantly complaining if they were having problems. It's no super nice scope because how could it be for what these cost, but it's actually really good considering.....

The hope is that the more money you spend on a scope it'll hold up better, however that's not always the case, so worth mentioning that there are plenty of us here on SH that have spent 10's of thousands of dollars on expensive scopes and still had various problems resulting in the returning for repair.

Having owned a dozen or so different Athlon scopes over the years I only had to send one scope back which was a LPVO Helos 1-10 which my old eyes wouldn't abide with which I blame on the 10x mag ratio and lacking a side focus so above 5x I didn't like what I saw. That was when I decided to get a March shorty 1-10 DFP with side focus which is about as good as such a scope is going to work for my eyes. It has pretty good IQ but not great. It might actually be something that would work for you though.

Truthfully I like using the Helos G2 2-12 more for my all around scope because I prefer 12x and the IQ doesn't seem compromised like is known to be common on some compact high mag ratio scopes. To me 12x is a good magnification to use for long range, 10x not near as much, and I never did like 8x for smaller steel farther out when I had a 1-8 on my AR. That's me but YMMV.

Just commenting.
Not that I'm even a mid level 3 gunner, but years ago I shot a local 3 gun match with 30-ish other shooters when using a Burris 1-8 XTR2 on my AR, and it wasn't until the end of the match that I realized I wasn't all the way down to 1x, IIRC almost 1.5x, that was a revelation to me because I felt I wasn't hindered at all. The farthest our steel was was 170Y, then scattered coming in to 75Y, but lots of close and mid cardboard targets out to 50Y. There were no A level shooters in my club and I ended up with the W. So I don't feel the same about 1x than I used to feel beforehand.
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Honestly that write up kind of surprised me because it's probably the only negative thing I've read about the Athlon 2-12. And like you said, if people were having problems it would be posted on here. The only negatives on here seem to be about the reticle. I'm no expert but I feel those people want the scope and reticle to be something it's not. It's a really interesting scope for sure. Especially for the tactical games and the distances and stages we shoot. It's cheap enough too that it might just be worth picking up and trying out.
 
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#68
white_rushin said:
That Athlon seems like it would work well for you. So cheap you could buy it and train with it w/o giving up the ATACR. Plus nothing good was released this year
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That's kind of what I'm thinking. I haven't seen anything that really peaks my interest or fits the application I'm looking at except for the Athlon or spending Nightforce money on a 3-18 "experiment" scope and having a learning curve with the off set red dot. I think at this point I'd rather take my chances on the Athlon.
 
#69
As Top O Texas said, depends on how precise your needing be.
I have a TS12 on my 18” AR 308. I can hit the 2” “vitals” on a metal beaver so the hit light comes on in heavy wind at 600yrds with relative ease.

If your trying be surgical, 25x or more.
 
#70
Well, I just bought the Athlon 2-12 from EuroOptic so should have it in a few days. Also got a Reptilia 1.54 mount for it. I think at the end of the day this thing could be perfect for what I'm wanting it to do. I'm somewhat surprised there aren't more options in the 2-12 range that have a reticle similar to the Athlon. Looks very similar to the NF FC-DMX reticle where it will hopefully be useable at close ranges (25 yards and in) and not so precise that it gets lost in the intermediate distances we shoot (200-600).

I won't be able to get out for another couple weekends but will try to give a follow-up after I get it mounted and get some time behind it. Thanks to everyone who responded!
 
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#71
Seems like it’ll be a good fit for you. The only other optic I am just now thinking of that is going to be released soon is the Vector Continental 2-12x FFP. Similar to the Athlon but with more of a FC-DMx clone reticule. It’s heavier at 27 Oz and a little more pricey but looks pretty nice

global.vector2007.com

Continental x6 2-12x44 CTR Rifle Scope

Feature · 34mm Tube, 55 MIL Extra Large Elevation Travel for Precise Mid-Long Range Target Shooting or Hunting. · First Focal Plane VET-CTR Etched Glass MIL Reticle for Accurate Holdovers at Any Magnification. · Turret Lock Function Prevents Unintentional Adjustments, Keeping Your Settings...
global.vector2007.com global.vector2007.com

Code C_DOES gets 10% off
 
#72
Anyone know if these guys were at Shot, or seen/handled this one in the wild? Until C_Does mentioned this on his channel, had never even heard of Vector optics. Any real US presence? Do like the possibilities of the reticle, however.
 
#73
white_rushin said:
Seems like it’ll be a good fit for you. The only other optic I am just now thinking of that is going to be released soon is the Vector Continental 2-12x FFP. Similar to the Athlon but with more of a FC-DMx clone reticule. It’s heavier at 27 Oz and a little more pricey but looks pretty nice

global.vector2007.com

Continental x6 2-12x44 CTR Rifle Scope

Feature · 34mm Tube, 55 MIL Extra Large Elevation Travel for Precise Mid-Long Range Target Shooting or Hunting. · First Focal Plane VET-CTR Etched Glass MIL Reticle for Accurate Holdovers at Any Magnification. · Turret Lock Function Prevents Unintentional Adjustments, Keeping Your Settings...
global.vector2007.com global.vector2007.com

Code C_DOES gets 10% off
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I think I saw a similar Vector review in a C_DOES video but it maybe had a different reticle? It looked like a good scope and I think he liked it but maybe not the reticle. I'd have to go back and find the video. It may have been in one of his long comparison videos.

But yeah, this looks like a really good option as well with the FC-DMX type reticle. Looks like the center dot is a little more precise on the Vector, which is a good thing in my view.

I'll have to do some more research on this scope. The price isn't bad either. Just a little bit more than the Athlon and a little bit heavier but that's ok.

I have such brand bias when it comes to these types of scopes though. I always feel like they're inferior to the Nightforces of the world on the durability side of things. Someone please convince me that these Athlon and Vector type scopes are ok. 😂 Maybe not Nightforce durable but durable enough. I mean, it's only the tactical games. 😂

Thanks!
 
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#74
Sample of one;
I like Vector's reticle in their flagship 5-30 Continental so I bought one 2.5 years ago. It was mounted on my expensive Thomas Field Target pcp air rifle. At some point during the summer season I noticed I would miss a shot, or 2, a match that should have been doable. This put my placing from top score or just out down to from 3rd to 5th place because our club has national and world champions in it. I assumed it was wind or a bad batch of new pellets?? Once in a while I'd get a flyer when sighting in which can be a funky pellet, or I'd screw up a shot, so it was hard to pin down the problem.

The Athlon Ares ETR 15-60 had come out about then so I got it on the same rifle to use for FT. The short of it was my scores went back to what they used to be before.

I sent the Vector back and they sent me a newer gen of the same model which sat in the safe for nearly a year since nobody was interested in buying it. Just last week I finished resealing an older pcp air rifle and put the new Vector 5-30 on it. A few days ago I shot a bunch and there seems to be something wrong with it because it won't focus in distinctly, almost but not quite, so that the IQ is also disappointing. The turrets fall behind my Athlon Helos's too. I have a Helos 2-12, 4-20 and a 6-24, that are to me a better made scope.

Not an attack on Vector but at this point I'm not considering buying anymore because the quality seems to be down.
That's unfortunate their 2-12 is heavy-ish but the new reticle looks pretty good.
 
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#75
couch000 said:
I think I saw a similar Vector review in a C_DOES video but it maybe had a different reticle? It looked like a good scope and I think he liked it but maybe not the reticle. I'd have to go back and find the video. It may have been in one of his long comparison videos.

But yeah, this looks like a really good option as well with the FC-DMX type reticle. Looks like the center dot is a little more precise on the Vector, which is a good thing in my view.

I'll have to do some more research on this scope. The price isn't bad either. Just a little bit more than the Athlon and a little bit heavier but that's ok.

I have such brand bias when it comes to these types of scopes though. I always feel like they're inferior to the Nightforces of the world on the durability side of things. Someone please convince me that these Athlon and Vector type scopes are ok. 😂 Maybe not Nightforce durable but durable enough. I mean, it's only the tactical games. 😂

Thanks!
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Eventually some higher end optics company will "get it" in the MPVO realm and come out with a nice one. But until....
 
#76
steve123 said:
Eventually some higher end optics company will "get it" in the MPVO realm and come out with a nice one. But until....
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Like Steiner and ZCO?

I'm not sure any company really understands what people want/need from an MPVO. We must just be a very vocal minority wanting something not many other people want.
 
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#77
steve123 said:
Eventually some higher end optics company will "get it" in the MPVO realm and come out with a nice one. But until....
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I see some people are starting to ditch the 1-6 type LPVOs in favor of higher magnification and an offset red dot. Seems like a better overall package. I think that's where a well designed 2-12 might have it's place in the market. Seems like most 2-12s are not set up for close up shooting reticle-wise. Or maybe a 1.5-12? Not sure if that's sacrificing too much or not but might be a good option for a close up and intermediate range scope in a smaller package.
 
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#78
beetroot said:
Like Steiner and ZCO?

I'm not sure any company really understands what people want/need from an MPVO. We must just be a very vocal minority wanting something not many other people want.
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Yes ZCO would have that tier #1 quality, when it comes out, unless it already has and I didn't notice, and if the reticle is large enough at 2.5x?? But 35mm tube, might be heavy, plus will it be about $4000.

Yes Steiner should be decent quality, but I'm not sold it on because the reticle is a little thin for me which is what I mean by "get it" in this aspect.

Heavy, thicker tubes, thin-ish reticles, aren't what I'm looking for. I agree it's a tough ask to get all the aspects together some of us are looking for.

No matter what I want to see the reticle plainly on lowest mag if FFP and I wouldn't mind daylight bright illume either.
 
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#79
beetroot said:
Like Steiner and ZCO?

I'm not sure any company really understands what people want/need from an MPVO. We must just be a very vocal minority wanting something not many other people want.
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I agree. I think at this point the clear options exist:

Budget: Helos 2-12x
Mid: Leupold Mark 4HD 2.5-10x
Mid-High: Steiner H6xi 2-12x
High: Mark 5HD 2-10x w/ new reticle
Gucci: ZCO 2-10x

By all accounts, that’s a pretty decent selection to choose from. I think we see all the LPVO options and expect we will have close to or that many choices, but I think we might need to get comfortable with those 5 (among the other older choices)
 
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#80
The Vector, Westhunter, Discover, etc are all probably made by the same company and just spec'ed differently for each brand. Popular with the air rifle crowd as you get a decent scope that doesn't have to take a bunch of recoil or abuse.
 
#81
white_rushin said:
I agree. I think at this point the clear options exist:

Budget: Helos 2-12x
Mid: Leupold Mark 4HD 2.5-10x
Mid-High: Steiner H6xi 2-12x
High: Mark 5HD 2-10x w/ new reticle
Gucci: ZCO 2-10x

By all accounts, that’s a pretty decent selection to choose from. I think we see all the LPVO options and expect we will have close to or that many choices, but I think we might need to get comfortable with those 5 (among the other older choices)
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I have the Steiner H6xi 2-12 and have previously owned a Leupold Mk5HD 3.5-18. There was no real difference in quality to say Leupold is high vs a mid-high Steiner. Only reason that Leupold could be put in a higher bucket is because they charge more. The new illuminated 2-10 is not a $2700 optic. It should have a $2k MSRP. Leupold is smoking crack
 
#82
PappyM3 said:
I have the Steiner H6xi 2-12 and have previously owned a Leupold Mk5HD 3.5-18. There was no real difference in quality to say Leupold is high vs a mid-high Steiner. Only reason that Leupold could be put in a higher bucket is because they charge more. The new illuminated 2-10 is not a $2700 optic. It should have a $2k MSRP. Leupold is smoking crack
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I agree, I just meant in terms of cost, not necessarily quality. I also have the Steiner 2-12x and it’s magnificent optically as well as fit/finish.
 
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#83
steve123 said:
Yes ZCO would have that tier #1 quality, when it comes out, unless it already has and I didn't notice, and if the reticle is large enough at 2.5x?? But 35mm tube, might be heavy, plus will it be about $4000.

Yes Steiner should be decent quality, but I'm not sold it on because the reticle is a little thin for me which is what I mean by "get it" in this aspect.

Heavy, thicker tubes, thin-ish reticles, aren't what I'm looking for. I agree it's a tough ask to get all the aspects together some of us are looking for.

No matter what I want to see the reticle plainly on lowest mag if FFP and I wouldn't mind daylight bright illume either.
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I was trying to imply that even high end companies don't seem to understand what us MVPOs are wanting. I don't know why as it's really not that complicated.

As you said if the reticle isn't clearly, easily visible on the lowest magnification it's a non starter, and if it weighs as much as a 3-15 scope then you may as well get one of those.
 
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#84
couch000 said:
I do Tactical Games competitions and the furthest we've shot out to is about 600 yards. A lot of guys are starting to go with a 3-18 type scope (something like Mk 5 HD) and offset red dot. We will typically have one to two stages where we shoot out to distance 200 - 600. Most distances on other stages are from 50-100 yards for rifle. Precision is paramount in these comps. Every miss is a 10 sec penalty in the workouts/stages.

I typically use a Nightforce ATACR 1-8 and it's a great scope (obviously) and has serviced me well but I don't know too much about the MPVO options out there. Since we are shooting 600 yards would a simple reticle be better (non-Christmas tree type)? Illuminated? 2-12 or 3-18? What's lowest magnification range on both ends you guys would look at? I don't want to get anything that has too much magnification. I would also be using an offset red dot for closer range targets.

I've heard general rule these days is 2x for every 100 yards so a 2-12 might be good but is that going to be much better than my ATACR 1-8? Would I still need an offset red dot for a 2-12 (never looked through one before). I figure a 3-15/18 type scope with offset red dot would probably be best option if I decide to go this route to take advantage of the MPVO type platform.

Any good suggestions and/or thoughts? I've looked at NXS, Vortex, Steiner, Leuopold, etc. I don't want to break the bank but maybe $1000-$1500 range. If I can sell my NX8 maybe higher.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I have done one tactical games but also some similar events that focus more on shooting and less on throwing a 50lbs bag of sand over a wall a couple of times before you shoot.

To answer your question, I have shot several quantified performance matches in the lowest or most basic category and was using a 16" rifle with a 1-8 ATACR like you. I always mount my red dot at 12 for a bunch of reasons but mostly for consistency. In the tactical games I shot, the winner was actually a guy that works for Trex and he was using a NF 2-20. Of the top five finishers, all of them were using 15 power or greater magnification on the top end. At the top end of the leader board, I did not see people that were dialing anything. It was all holds with some kind of tree reticle.

For me, the longer the course of fire the more the scope makes a difference and the quantified performance matches have more targets at ranges beyond 300 yards than the tactical game matches.

If you don't want to break the bank, this scope looks promising for the money.

Vector Continental 2-12
 
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#86
ut755ln said:
I have done one tactical games but also some similar events that focus more on shooting and less on throwing a 50lbs bag of sand over a wall a couple of times before you shoot.

To answer your question, I have shot several quantified performance matches in the lowest or most basic category and was using a 16" rifle with a 1-8 ATACR like you. I always mount my red dot at 12 for a bunch of reasons but mostly for consistency. In the tactical games I shot, the winner was actually a guy that works for Trex and he was using a NF 2-20. Of the top five finishers, all of them were using 15 power or greater magnification on the top end. At the top end of the leader board, I did not see people that were dialing anything. It was all holds with some kind of tree reticle.

For me, the longer the course of fire the more the scope makes a difference and the quantified performance matches have more targets at ranges beyond 300 yards than the tactical game matches.

If you don't want to break the bank, this scope looks promising for the money.

Vector Continental 2-12
Click to expand...
I have looked closely at the Vector but had already purchased the Athlon 2-12. C_Does did a review on the Vector and seemed to really like it. He also compared it against the Athlon, which he likes a lot too. He seems to think the Vector is a little better for precision and the Athlon better for close up engagements. After watching his reviews and looking at the reticles I definitely agree.

I love the larger circle around the center dot of the Athlon. Just wish the center dot was slightly smaller. I wish the Vector had a larger circle around their center dot. I like their center dot size a lot. It's almost like if the two reticles had a baby it would be the perfect reticle (at least for what I want).

I did get the Athlon 2-12 out to zero today at my indoor range and MAN did the 12x make a huge difference- especially with the parallax adjustment. I've only really used LPVOs in the past with no parallax adjustment. It just seemed so easy to get behind compared to my ATACR 1-8. I put the Athlon on my tactical games rifle (that the ATACR was sitting on) and put the ATACR on a virtually identical build (same 14.5 Criterion Core barrel) and zeroed both today at 50 yards.

I think I'm really going to like the Athlon 2-12. It's just enough magnification without going crazy and it has a reticle that works for close distances as well and is not busy. That's one thing I noticed about the ATACR FC-DMX reticle. It has a dot just above the center dot and I find myself accidentally using it as the center dot sometimes. The Athlon just has the center dot inside the circle.

Now it's time to get it outside next weekend and stretch it out some!
 
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#87
couch000 said:
I have looked closely at the Vector but had already purchased the Athlon 2-12. C_Does did a review on the Vector and seemed to really like it. He also compared it against the Athlon, which he likes a lot too. He seems to think the Vector is a little better for precision and the Athlon better for close up engagements. After watching his reviews and looking at the reticles I definitely agree.

I love the larger circle around the center dot of the Athlon. Just wish the center dot was slightly smaller. I wish the Vector had a larger circle around their center dot. I like their center dot size a lot. It's almost like if the two reticles had a baby it would be the perfect reticle (at least for what I want).

I did get the Athlon 2-12 out to zero today at my indoor range and MAN did the 12x make a huge difference- especially with the parallax adjustment. I've only really used LPVOs in the past with no parallax adjustment. It just seemed so easy to get behind compared to my ATACR 1-8. I put the Athlon on my tactical games rifle (that the ATACR was sitting on) and put the ATACR on a virtually identical build (same 14.5 Criterion Core barrel) and zeroed both today at 50 yards.

I think I'm really going to like the Athlon 2-12. It's just enough magnification without going crazy and it has a reticle that works for close distances as well and is not busy. That's one thing I noticed about the ATACR FC-DMX reticle. It has a dot just above the center dot and I find myself accidentally using it as the center dot sometimes. The Athlon just has the center dot inside the circle.

Now it's time to get it outside next weekend and stretch it out some!
Click to expand...
I think what you are experiencing is what many in the LPVO crowd have either discovered or are going through, at least those who wish to engage a little further out.

I really think the ZCO 2-10 will be amazing but a $4k MPVO is out of the conversation for many. The March FFP 1.5-15 is really good and has been the best option but is also on the pricier side. The Leupold 2-10 is really overpriced for what it is, but new CMR mil reticle seems nice, thus leaving a gap for some good $1500-$2k MPVO options, the Steiner H6Xi 2-12 is probably the closest but reticle is not effective enough at lower mags.

Maybe LOW will start OEMing some good MPVO’s and then we’ll see more follow once mfr’s see theres actually a market for this, but the biggest issue is that few understand
 
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#88
bobke said:
Anyone know if these guys were at Shot, or seen/handled this one in the wild? Until C_Does mentioned this on his channel, had never even heard of Vector optics. Any real US presence? Do like the possibilities of the reticle, however.
Click to expand...

Vector Optics has been making (selling?) cheapy chinese airsoft type stuff forever

Chinese OEMs have gotten better the binoculars/spotting scopes are good it's only a matter of time before the scopes are good too, there's a bunch of these newer tactical chinese type scopes popping up under different names

I bet these are from the same OEM:

www.swampfoxoptics.com

Kentucky Long FFP Precision Rifle Scope | Swampfox Optics

Kentucky Long precision rifle scope boasts excellent edge-to-edge clarity, first focal plane construction, glass-etched illuminated reticles, and a monster 6x zoom ratio. Go Long with the Kentucky Long Rifle Scope.
www.swampfoxoptics.com www.swampfoxoptics.com

ritonoptics.com

5 Primal 2-12×44 IR

RELIABILITY WITHOUT COMPROMISE The 5 Primal 2-12×44 IR, stands as the pinnacle of performance for the hunter who demands reliability without compromise. A wildly adaptable 6X optical system allows for…
ritonoptics.com ritonoptics.com

www.blackhoundoptics.com

Emerge 2-12×44 FFP MIL

The Blackhound Emerge 2-12×44 is built for almost any application. When the need arises for a precision shot from 50 feet to 500 yards this First focal plane optic is built for the job. The Custom…
www.blackhoundoptics.com www.blackhoundoptics.com
 
#89
BCP said:
Vector Optics has been making (selling?) cheapy chinese airsoft type stuff forever

Chinese OEMs have gotten better the binoculars/spotting scopes are good it's only a matter of time before the scopes are good too, there's a bunch of these newer tactical chinese type scopes popping up under different names

I bet these are from the same OEM:

www.swampfoxoptics.com

Kentucky Long FFP Precision Rifle Scope | Swampfox Optics

Kentucky Long precision rifle scope boasts excellent edge-to-edge clarity, first focal plane construction, glass-etched illuminated reticles, and a monster 6x zoom ratio. Go Long with the Kentucky Long Rifle Scope.
www.swampfoxoptics.com www.swampfoxoptics.com

ritonoptics.com

5 Primal 2-12×44 IR

RELIABILITY WITHOUT COMPROMISE The 5 Primal 2-12×44 IR, stands as the pinnacle of performance for the hunter who demands reliability without compromise. A wildly adaptable 6X optical system allows for…
ritonoptics.com ritonoptics.com

www.blackhoundoptics.com

Emerge 2-12×44 FFP MIL

The Blackhound Emerge 2-12×44 is built for almost any application. When the need arises for a precision shot from 50 feet to 500 yards this First focal plane optic is built for the job. The Custom…
www.blackhoundoptics.com www.blackhoundoptics.com
Click to expand...
The Blackhound scope is Japanese made, the Riton likely is too.
 
#91
beetroot said:
The Blackhound scope is Japanese made, the Riton likely is too.
Click to expand...

Those two are chinese the riton x7 lineup is japan.

I'm not saying chinese made is a bad thing all I'm saying is that with their oems getting better and better we're going to see a lot more of them on the market from a lot of different sellers.
 
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#92
Charmingmander said:
I have one of the Athlons.

Haven't used it much but the glass is pretty damn clean for the price point and the tracking and turrets are excellent.
Click to expand...

People forget that a lot of the current "HD" binoculars and spotting scopes are chinese made and the optics are excellent. It's really just a matter of time before their scopes catch up.
 
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#95
Glassaholic said:
Been asking for the NX8 1.5-12 for a bit now, doubtful NF will bite. I'm not a huge fan of 8x erector scopes unless done right, usually they are more finicky than I prefer. Still would like to see NX6 or new ATACR 6x erector 2-12 with DMx type reticle, but doubtful that will transpire anytime soon.
Click to expand...
You'll see something along those lines, but not from Nightforce (or at least I have no insight into Nightforce). I have been doing my level best to convince a couple of companies to bring it to market.
 
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#96
Glassaholic said:
I think what you are experiencing is what many in the LPVO crowd have either discovered or are going through, at least those who wish to engage a little further out.

I really think the ZCO 2-10 will be amazing but a $4k MPVO is out of the conversation for many. The March FFP 1.5-15 is really good and has been the best option but is also on the pricier side. The Leupold 2-10 is really overpriced for what it is, but new CMR mil reticle seems nice, thus leaving a gap for some good $1500-$2k MPVO options, the Steiner H6Xi 2-12 is probably the closest but reticle is not effective enough at lower mags.

Maybe LOW will start OEMing some good MPVO’s and then we’ll see more follow once mfr’s see theres actually a market for this, but the biggest issue is that few understand
Click to expand...
Yeah, it’s like why not just get a higher magnification scope and put an offset red dot on it or get a 2-12 scope with a useable 2x and 12x reticle so you don’t necessarily need an offset red dot. It seems like the Athlon and Vector are the only 12x options that are useable on 2x and 12x.

As I mentioned, I only really have experience with LPVOs (ATACR 1-8 and Razor 1-10) and just now starting to get into higher magnification scopes. Building a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun and researching 5-25 type scopes at this point. Not sure I want to spend NF money this scope because I’m not sure how much I’ll get to shoot it out past 250 yards.

For the bolt gun I’m currently looking at the Razor G2 4.5-27, the Burris XTR Pro 5-30, and an Athlon Cronus. Seems like those are pretty good options at the $2k, $1.5k, and a little over $1k. I’ve also looked at the Bushnell MPED 5-30 as well.

I was going to start another thread on the bolt gun scope because I’m about to go crazy researching all this stuff and why not? 😂
 
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