Reviewed this thread week before last, a couple days before shooting a Team UKD .22 match. There is gold in here.
Advanced Marksmanship Tips & Tricks, from Tripods to Stage Examples for - UKD Team Field Match or Hunting
- Thread starter Diver160651
- Start date
by far my favorite thread in snipers hide, needs to be condensed into a book.
the issue is the timing for this match is smacked up against my Elk hunting season.The over all idea was for the stages to be challenging from a team approach, to navigate the time as effectively as possible, and make choices as to what team member shoots what, what targets to SKIP, to stay focused and not get frustrated, to get the best score from the stage; not to clean the stage. It takes a ton of prep to pull it off or it becomes less field like with less transferable stage themes to possible field or hunting uses.
The comprises would be to make it more PRS-ish, but there is already a full schedule of sanctioned PRS events at the club.
It’s super cool that so many people engaged and continue to read the thread.. maybe if another time slot in the year opens and interest remains high, we’ll do another.
Thanks to all the readers, commenters and shooters!
I considered making a new post for this, and perhaps I will if @Diver160651 doesn’t chime in. Haven’t seen him around for quite some time 
To me, this here thread is the best tripod shooting technique instruction on this site. All thanks to Diver.
But I just ran across this vid of someone who appears to know what he’s talking about doing things that I think aren’t that great. But I could be wrong. Thoughts?
To me, this here thread is the best tripod shooting technique instruction on this site. All thanks to Diver.
But I just ran across this vid of someone who appears to know what he’s talking about doing things that I think aren’t that great. But I could be wrong. Thoughts?
I considered making a new post for this, and perhaps I will if @Diver160651 doesn’t chime in. Haven’t seen him around for quite some time
To me, this here thread is the best tripod shooting technique instruction on this site. All thanks to Diver.
But I just ran across this vid of someone who appears to know what he’s talking about doing things that I think aren’t that great. But I could be wrong. Thoughts?
Thats @CaylenW of modern day rifleman, and he is really good.
Yeah, he seems like he isn’t some dweeb like the @Overton Windex “Red Bull at 2403yds” fag.
2403-yard shot on a can of red bull, sounds like a load of bull.
I've watched a couple of his videos, something just seems off about this guy. Waaaay too defensive and lacking any modesty of the great shooters I know.
www.snipershide.com
So his credentials piqued my interest. I know that there are many ways to the same spot, but his way seems best for just a few shots before you’d get tired out. When I’m on the gun shooting pdogs (standing up), I’m on it for an extended period of time. I never fully lock the head as the targets move a lot more than steel or an elk.
And there is a LOT of panning.
Not to mention there’s a lot of getting off the gun and glassing for targets. You’d constantly need to crank the crap out of the head to stop the whole rig from falling over, especially in the rather extreme (typical) wind conditions.
My 18 lbs 204 might fall over in that wind if left just attached by the very front.
I use a RRS TVC-33 with the leveling head and a sturdy panning head attached on top. I find that colony varmint shooting is easier when you have separate tension settings for panning and tilting. More tension on tilt vs pan. See here for a little more detail.
Almost all tripod instruction has a one-shot or two-shot scenario built around it (perhaps up to 12 shots), with comparatively little panning and for very, very little time (sub five minutes; prob more like sub 2 minutes for most).
Anyway, this isn’t an attack, but a chance to discuss. Like I mentioned, many ways to the same spot, and I’ll add horses for courses etc.
Last edited:
It sounds like you just have a very specific use case, that leads to different priorities. And that's fine.Yeah, he seems like he isn’t some dweeb like the @Overton Windex “Red Bull at 2403yds” fag.
2403-yard shot on a can of red bull, sounds like a load of bull.
I've watched a couple of his videos, something just seems off about this guy. Waaaay too defensive and lacking any modesty of the great shooters I know.
So his credentials piqued my interest. I know that there are many ways to the same spot, but his way seems best for just a few shots before you’d get tired out. When I’m on the gun shooting pdogs (standing up), I’m on it for an extended period of time. I never fully lock the head as the targets move a lot more than steel or an elk.
And there is a LOT of panning.
Not to mention there’s a lot of getting off the gun and glassing for targets. You’d constantly need to crank the crap out of the head to stop the whole rig from falling over, especially in the rather extreme (typical) wind conditions.
My 18 lbs 204 might fall over in that wind if left just attached by the very front.
I use a RRS TVC-33 with the leveling head and a sturdy panning head attached on top. I find that colony varmint shooting is easier when you have separate tension settings for panning and tilting. More tension on tilt vs pan. See here for a little more detail.
Almost all tripod instruction has a one-shot or two-shot scenario built around it (perhaps up to 12 shots), with comparatively little panning and for very, very little time (sub five minutes; prob more like sub 2 minutes for most).
Anyway, this isn’t an attack, but a chance to discuss. Like I mentioned, many ways to the same spot, and I’ll add horses for courses etc.
Some thoughts:
1) The video is seeking expressly to correct three common issues in tripod use: adjusting yourself to the tripod rather than the other way around, proper body position (fundamentals), and connection point of the rifle to tripod. Sounds like you take issue with the third of these (and only the third, I gather), although if you were using a bag rather than clipped in, it sounds to me like you would agree with his recommendation (balance point on the tripod).
2) He is correct that clipping in further on the forend will reduce POA deflections from small movements at the buttstock; he also gains more recoil management by being able to lock out his support elbow and brace against the whole system moving backwards while still keeping control of the ballhead. This method is well-suited to the situations you describe: shorter strings of fire under tighter time constraints, typically engaged after targets have been acquired.
3) Your preferred shooting situation (effectively target practice from a static, unthreatened position on a "flat" range with no time or accuracy constraint) means you can afford to prioritize certain things such as ease-of-use, long-term comfort, and max stability at the cost of portability and adjustability.
4) It sounds to me like you're using two different platforms for glassing versus shooting; Caylen isn't practicing/teaching a gear load-out like that, and neither is his target audience (Mil/LE, backcountry hunters, and new shooters, with some minor consideration for PRS-style competitors). If he needed to glass, he'd be using the same tripod, so the rifle would come off and get grounded on the bipod you see attached on his spigot. In high winds that threatened to knock over the system, he would either unclip and ground the rifle or widen the tripod base.
5) The Anvil-30 head he's using is very easy to adjust quickly. When properly adjusted, there's very little travel on the lever required to go from loose to fully locked out, with a fairly small "sweet spot" where you can adjust POA with slight pressure but have the gun stay in place when you release it. So, the fine adjustments you're having to make on your leveling and panning heads (or fully locking it in place) all happen in less than a second with the Anvil-30, at the cost of reduced ease of panning. Your setup is really well-suited to your shooting situation, but would be a detriment in a situation that required a lot of elevation adjustment, or just rapid adjustment in two dimensions (such as mountain or urban engagements); Caylen's setup prioritizes function in the latter situation.
So, it sounds to me like you've already largely identified the reasons he's recommending the things he is, and that those reasons don't apply to your style of tripod shooting. Would you say that's fair?
Thanks for your pleasant reply! That sometimes can be a rarity around here.
Rather, I was coming at it from the below post’s angle. Which is on this very thread that we’re on.
www.snipershide.com
I do realize Diver’s advice is not absolute; he says as much: I quote, “Your final body position is going to be unique to you.” He categorizes his advice as tips. But those tips seem to be often at odds with some of @CaylenW ‘s advice in his video.
But sorry if I’ve perhaps muddied the waters with my “how I do it” exposé…I probably was just showing people that there is a different way to shoot off a tripod, as most here are comp focused.
So, let’s just ignore my personal technique (including binos) for now and instead focus on Diver’s above linked post. Also ignore the use of a bag on top of the tripod.
I guess the two biggest differences I see between Diver’s general advice and Caylen’s are the bending at the waist thing on flat ground and the rifle’s clipping in point.
Please take a look at Diver’s post. He’s got quite a few pics. Heck, you’ve no doubt already see them.
I’m not picking sides. I think it could be fruitful to discuss.
I did not mean to come across as advocating my little tweaks to @Diver160651 ‘s tripod shooting general advice. I do realize I have rather specific needs.
Rather, I was coming at it from the below post’s angle. Which is on this very thread that we’re on.
Advanced Marksmanship - Tips & Tricks, from Tripods to Stage Examples for - UKD Team Field Match or Hunting
looking forward to the tripod class also, you are putting out so much info, i really appreciate the time your putting into this.
www.snipershide.com
I do realize Diver’s advice is not absolute; he says as much: I quote, “Your final body position is going to be unique to you.” He categorizes his advice as tips. But those tips seem to be often at odds with some of @CaylenW ‘s advice in his video.
But sorry if I’ve perhaps muddied the waters with my “how I do it” exposé…I probably was just showing people that there is a different way to shoot off a tripod, as most here are comp focused.
So, let’s just ignore my personal technique (including binos) for now and instead focus on Diver’s above linked post. Also ignore the use of a bag on top of the tripod.
I guess the two biggest differences I see between Diver’s general advice and Caylen’s are the bending at the waist thing on flat ground and the rifle’s clipping in point.
Please take a look at Diver’s post. He’s got quite a few pics. Heck, you’ve no doubt already see them.
I’m not picking sides. I think it could be fruitful to discuss.
Thanks for your pleasant reply! That sometimes can be a rarity around here.
I did not mean to come across as advocating my little tweaks to @Diver160651 ‘s tripod shooting general advice. I do realize I have rather specific needs.
Rather, I was coming at it from the below post’s angle. Which is on this very thread that we’re on.
Advanced Marksmanship - Tips & Tricks, from Tripods to Stage Examples for - UKD Team Field Match or Hunting
looking forward to the tripod class also, you are putting out so much info, i really appreciate the time your putting into this.
I do realize Diver’s advice is not absolute; he says as much: I quote, “Your final body position is going to be unique to you.” He categorizes his advice as tips. But those tips seem to be often at odds with some of @CaylenW ‘s advice in his video.
But sorry if I’ve perhaps muddied the waters with my “how I do it” exposé…I probably was just showing people that there is a different way to shoot off a tripod, as most here are comp focused.
So, let’s just ignore my personal technique (including binos) for now and instead focus on Diver’s above linked post. Also ignore the use of a bag on top of the tripod.
I guess the two biggest differences I see between Diver’s general advice and Caylen’s are the bending at the waist thing on flat ground and the rifle’s clipping in point.
Please take a look at Diver’s post. He’s got quite a few pics. Heck, you’ve no doubt already see them.
I’m not picking sides. I think it could be fruitful to discuss.
What specifically do you think that Caylen has wrong?
The way Cayley clips in vs Chris way are opposite from the videos I’ve seen. I personally do it Chris’s way (no pun intended). Closer to the balance point near the mag well. Not sure if one is more right tho?
I wouldn’t say “wrong.” It’s just different than @Diver160651 ’s tips, in a general way. This table has the gist of it.
Diver | Caylen | |
| Rifle clip in point | Near balance point (magwell) | Far forward, by bipod mount |
| Stance | Bent at the waist | Standing straight up |
My guess is that both of the men are far better shots than I. I’m just curious what people think. It’s been almost -20°F air temp for a low for the past two or three nights, otherwise I would’ve popped out to try some of @CaylenW ’s tips.
Or that’s what I tell myself…Normally I like getting out there in these temps. I guess I’m feeling lazy.
Heck, I should get out there regardless to chrono some ammo in these conditions.
Caylen does a geat job of explaining the why behind his method in the video you linked. He spends about 4 minutes talking about body position and even mentions the bent at the waist method Diver uses and why he feels it's unnecessary. And spoiler alert: Caylen is right.
Standing straight up is more stable and easier to maintain because it uses less muscular tension. And it is more conducive to establishing a solid NPA than standing bent at the waist and using muscle tension to support the weight of your torso. Standing upright looking straight through the scope also makes it easier to manage your sight picture. Caylen also specifically says that these tips are for a situations when you're free from height restrictions like loop holes or other obstructions.
Basic physics also pretty clearly shows that moving the fulcrum further from the butt of the rifle will minimize the effect that small shooter inputs have on POA. And Diver's main reasoning for clipping in near the magazine is that it allows him to make large adjustments in POA with less input from the butt of the rifle, so the two aren't really contradicting each other here, so much as prioritizing differently.
Diver's focus seems to be maximizing the range of motion available from a single tripod setting, without much concern for how that impacts body position or application of the fundamentals. Which is fine within the context of what he's trying to show - rapid employment of the tripod when shooting field matches, especially if you have to set up the tripod before you're aware of the exact location of the target.
Modern Day Sniper has an entire tripod masterclass available online. That video from Caylen is good stuff, but it's only the tip of the iceberg of what he has to teach about tripod shooting.
Last edited:
I’m getting a vibe from some in the crowd that I’m just not listening closely enough to Caylen’s instruction.
However, rationale and actual experience doing the thing are different…I could give you the most carefully reasoned-sounding argument that turns out, in practice, to be faulty.
Most point here was to generate a nice back-and-forth discussion from other people that have actually tried both ways of tripod shooting, hopefully for an extended period of time.
Of course, Caylen has said he used to shoot using technique similar to Diver’s; this we know but he is but one person, the person espousing the new-ish technique.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but my hope was not to have Caylen’s (or Diver’s) ideas explained back to me? As Caylen (and Diver) have already done a good job of explaining their respective techniques.
I’m definitely going to have a go at trying Caylen’s ideas.
What were your experiences using the “Diver” vs the “Caylen” styles?
I’d love to also hear from the man himself, @Diver160651. My tagging him has had no effect; maybe someone else (someone more impt? lol) could tag him?
Or, if you know him better than I, perhaps you could personally alert him to this recent wrinkle in his very own (and influential) thread.
Or, if you know him better than I, perhaps you could personally alert him to this recent wrinkle in his very own (and influential) thread.
An incorrect assumption as well.
I’ve said:
Diver could be wrong in some ways, or entirely, or Caylen could, or whatever. Just looking for hands-on experiences from those that have used both techniques.
Not sure how much more I need to say to make clear my intentions.
This dismissive tone of your reply got under my skin a bit. Mostly because it made the assumption that the replies you've gotten are from people who haven't bothered to try (or have little experience with) the things they're talking about.
Last edited:
Any position where my body joints are not stacked vertically is less stable for me, excepting a free recoil situation that is generally unsound for our purposes. If my forend support is far forward, and my body vertical, the effect is almost the same as rear tripod support. To pan I move my feet ie. rear support. Caylen has shown me a way to improve my results I think.
???
I’m doing no such thing. I am merely asking about first-person experiences, not logical arguments.
Like, “I used Diver’s bent-over technique for years and clipped in near the magwell. After a while I felt XYZ could be improved and searched for an improved technique. Using Caylen’s ideas my groups/hits at 500yds/etc improved by X and it felt better in these ways ABC. The reticle moved less and blah blah blah.”
Saying something like, “well of course Caylen is right. Fulcum physics etc etc” is interesting but less than helpful.
Exhibit A on how logical-sounding rhetoric can steer a person “wrong”. In this case, for humor.
The above is all I am after.
Last edited:
I believe that I'm one of the least experienced shooters here. Thats my mindset anyways. So feel free to disagree with me.
I tried bent over, sort of like Diver’s technique. It seemed to provide more recoil control, yet a little more wobble, probably due to muscle support.
When i tried caylen’s technique there was more stability when clipped in close, but then when i clip out at the end i seemed to wobble more.
now i stand more upright, use a tac table and small bag, and rest the rifle just in front of the magwell. This seems to provide me the most consistency, and least wobble if i get my body in a stable position.
For me currently:
seated > standing > high kneeling.
Thus is my 1 cent
Divers busy living his life, leave him alone.
As far as tripod techniques are considered
Not every situation is the same, sometimes on on a down hill or up , sometimes a side hill ,sometimes flat ground. Every situation is going to be different, if you going to be good at shooting off tripods ,you have to practice every situation that can be thrown at you . Clipped in close to mag, at the forend more, shooting off a bag a flat plate,
Even tripod rear and a front support takes practice. So getting all crazy over which is better is pointless , practice it all ,be proficient in all positions and then it doesn't matter what you like or the next guy likes.
You can just out and hit whatever it is your shooting at, targets prairie dogs whatever.
There is your answer .
Your welcome jimmy
Divers busy living his life, leave him alone.
As far as tripod techniques are considered
Not every situation is the same, sometimes on on a down hill or up , sometimes a side hill ,sometimes flat ground. Every situation is going to be different, if you going to be good at shooting off tripods ,you have to practice every situation that can be thrown at you . Clipped in close to mag, at the forend more, shooting off a bag a flat plate,
Even tripod rear and a front support takes practice. So getting all crazy over which is better is pointless , practice it all ,be proficient in all positions and then it doesn't matter what you like or the next guy likes.
You can just out and hit whatever it is your shooting at, targets prairie dogs whatever.
There is your answer .
Your welcome jimmy
So I went out tonight at 6:30pm to the 100yd outdoor range, which has giant floodlights. Pitch black at this time of year. It was -0.5°F when I started, and -3°F when I ended. No wind.
Snow on the ground, about 7” powder on top of a half-foot to a foot of compacted snow.
This was the second very strange winter shoot I’ve had in which there was significant mirage, starting before I even shot a round. The gun had been out in the cold truck for an hour, so that wasn’t it. Even unscrewed the lens hood, as that can trap warm air from a vehicle (strange but true, learned that with photography).
The mirage continued, on and off, until the end at 8pm. The whole time the suppressor was almost cold, and the barrel was cold.
Anyway, the goal was to shoot some “Diver” groups and some “Caylen” groups. Decided to try a light centerfire caliber to start, a 17 Hornet. Figured that largely would eliminate recoil from the equation…I’ll work my way up to a 6br or 308 later.
Eliminating a warmup group and the groups utterly spoiled by extreme mirage, I got four 5 round groups that were shot rather excruciatingly slow. The results are as follows:
*RRS TVC-33 + leveling bowl + panning head
** RRS TFC-34 + Anvil 30
I was impressed by the decreased wobble I noticed with Caylen’s technique. I definitely am going to keep testing and practicing it.
Next time I’ll be using just one ammo type and one tripod setup. I had thought I was going to get more shooting in with more vmax groups as I ran out of the American Eagle while warming up.
Had to use two tripods as I had forgotten I can’t clip in a pic rail to the TVC-33. Ah well.
But that damn mirage kept popping up and greatly slowing me down. A slight breeze would’ve helped. I can’t figure it out…it was overcast…I guess the ground was just a little “warm” (lol at -3°F) compared…to…the air? We’ve had two or three -18 to -20°F nights immediately before tonight, so I don’t know where this mirage is coming from.
I know the ground is warm deep down, but in MN we have about a four foot frost line. That means the ground freezes four feet down. For example, if you build a deck, the support beams need to be driven at least four feet down to avoid frost heaves wrecking your deck.
But maybe the ground is just warm enough that on a windless overcast night there’s enough heat differential to create mirage? At 99 freaking yards? My best guess.
Anyway, I’m a believer in showing the ugly and entire groups/truth. Here you go:
P.S. I was not even shooting inside the unheated (but insulated) three-sided range shack. I was shooting outside, just in front of it, hence the 99 yard range. I did notice the relative humidity jumping around, however (Kestrel). Hmmmmm…
Snow on the ground, about 7” powder on top of a half-foot to a foot of compacted snow.
This was the second very strange winter shoot I’ve had in which there was significant mirage, starting before I even shot a round. The gun had been out in the cold truck for an hour, so that wasn’t it. Even unscrewed the lens hood, as that can trap warm air from a vehicle (strange but true, learned that with photography).
The mirage continued, on and off, until the end at 8pm. The whole time the suppressor was almost cold, and the barrel was cold.
Anyway, the goal was to shoot some “Diver” groups and some “Caylen” groups. Decided to try a light centerfire caliber to start, a 17 Hornet. Figured that largely would eliminate recoil from the equation…I’ll work my way up to a 6br or 308 later.
Eliminating a warmup group and the groups utterly spoiled by extreme mirage, I got four 5 round groups that were shot rather excruciatingly slow. The results are as follows:
| American Eagle | American Eagle | Hornady Vmax | Avg MOA | |
| Diver* | 0.87 | 0.66 | 1.07 | 0.87 |
| Caylen** | 0.71 | 0.71 |
*RRS TVC-33 + leveling bowl + panning head
** RRS TFC-34 + Anvil 30
I was impressed by the decreased wobble I noticed with Caylen’s technique. I definitely am going to keep testing and practicing it.
Next time I’ll be using just one ammo type and one tripod setup. I had thought I was going to get more shooting in with more vmax groups as I ran out of the American Eagle while warming up.
Had to use two tripods as I had forgotten I can’t clip in a pic rail to the TVC-33. Ah well.
But that damn mirage kept popping up and greatly slowing me down. A slight breeze would’ve helped. I can’t figure it out…it was overcast…I guess the ground was just a little “warm” (lol at -3°F) compared…to…the air? We’ve had two or three -18 to -20°F nights immediately before tonight, so I don’t know where this mirage is coming from.
I know the ground is warm deep down, but in MN we have about a four foot frost line. That means the ground freezes four feet down. For example, if you build a deck, the support beams need to be driven at least four feet down to avoid frost heaves wrecking your deck.
But maybe the ground is just warm enough that on a windless overcast night there’s enough heat differential to create mirage? At 99 freaking yards? My best guess.
Anyway, I’m a believer in showing the ugly and entire groups/truth. Here you go:
P.S. I was not even shooting inside the unheated (but insulated) three-sided range shack. I was shooting outside, just in front of it, hence the 99 yard range. I did notice the relative humidity jumping around, however (Kestrel). Hmmmmm…
Last edited:
I should also note that I was shooting with a huge thick parka on, two hats on, with two hoods up over my head, and gloves on with hand warmers jammed into the palms.
If you’ve never shot in the cold, it’s a bit of a challenge as it’s that much harder to get the buttstock pulled through the parka/fleece/flannel shirt padding and anchored onto your shoulder pocket (actually collar bone…hate that shoulder pocket term) without throwing off your “wobble-equilibrium.”
Anyway, if you feel like it, post your results if you are curious in comparing the two techniques.
If you’ve never shot in the cold, it’s a bit of a challenge as it’s that much harder to get the buttstock pulled through the parka/fleece/flannel shirt padding and anchored onto your shoulder pocket (actually collar bone…hate that shoulder pocket term) without throwing off your “wobble-equilibrium.”
Anyway, if you feel like it, post your results if you are curious in comparing the two techniques.
Last edited:
Next time you get to the range, on your high kneeling position try getting your belly button more forward. I find that shifting my belly/hips forward, I get noticeably less wobble
Interesting. I never shoot in that position, but I could see that happening as I get into coyote hunting. I’m basically sitting on a rotating pdog bench, standing w/tripod, or sitting with tripod.
Any tips on sitting? Especially about half-way up this sort of thing.
Last edited:
Some folks like anchoring their shooting elbow on their knee (which is pointed upwards), I haven’t had a lot of success with that personally. I do get a lot of stability sitting cross-legged, then placing my shooting elbow on my knee (which is pointed out to the right and resting on my left foot), but seated is weaker for me these days. I expect I need to play with it and figure out what my issue is, it’s likely a shooting height that’s too low, requiring my lower back muscles to engage and causing wobble.
