Oh I remember now, was not a podcast. It was Jacob's at rifles only online training. That had the loophole class
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Saw a lot of you guys out at the Avenal PRS Regional Series Qualifier this weekend and had a great time shooting with some of you!
The Hide:
This stage spoiler is a hair out of sequence; I should have posted the "reticle ranging pitfalls" tips segment first as they both use the same base math. This stage also relies on some of the skill sets discussed in "Dave's devious dope stage," If you haven't seen that post, I recommend you go back and review it quickly.
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This stage simulates setting up deep inside of a homemade hunting blind or other hides where the shooter is set back from a small opening in foliage or other obstructions. The stage will have a boundary area between point-blank and 5 or 6 yards (see the orange flag tape), with a makeshift wall with two small ports that the shooters must shoot through to hit targets between 900yards and 700yards. This is a true team stage, if the shooters operate independently, they'll probably time out.
What it looks like - This 6-second clip shows Jon on the left and me on the right, proofing the stage. We are shooting a 900yard target through a 1-1/2" loophole. For the record, staying on glass is not helpful because you can NOT see your partner's target from the loop your shooting, that why I just came off the glass, I have a better chance of helping with my naked eyes, even better with Binos looking over the top.
The stage setup and scoring:
The guns may be staged with the mag out and bolt back inside the makeshift room marked by the boundaries of the flag tape. Tripods and mags in hand, time starts. One shooter will shoot out of the upper loop, and the other shooter will choose the lower loop, shooters will engage two targets each at one of two specified distances and communicate to the RO their loop and target choice. The shooters may NOT use the same loop height as their teammate, and each shooter must shoot a different distance. There will be a small and large target at each of the two ranges.Shooter one will let the RO know what loop and target distance they choose, then engaged the small target first, worth 4pts for a first-round hit, 3pts for a second and third-round impact. Then the large target with the points value being 3pts for a first-round hit, 2pts for a second and 1pt for a third-round impact. Shooter two will follow confirming they are shooting out of the alternate loop and alternate distance using the same points schedule. This is a high-value stage, so that time management will play a key role. We will have a tape measure on site.What's the catch? Well, if there is any contact with the loop board or the tape surrounding the loophole that shooter will score a 0 for their stage, the other teammate's score will count as long as they shot cleanly without damaging a tape or loop board. The RO will inspect the tape and board once the team finishes their time. New tape will be installed after the teams examine and score their stage.Above is what it looks like when you miss the loop window. If you look closely at the upper loop on the left side, you can see three bullets that clipped the loophole. The target might still have an impact, but this shooter zeroed his attempts.How does a loop Look through my scope? Below is a bit of over dramatic representation, but I think it helps illustrate a major issue.Parallax can be a huge issue and does not allow the shooter to see the boundaries of the loophole's actual location when you're not centered in the scope. An old school trick used to ensure your scope is parallax free is scope shadowing. It is super fast and simple, move your head back slightly until you see even shadowing all around the ocular. It can be useful in several real word situations even today. Be it a stage with poor body position containing both near and far targets without the time to adjust it to a long-range target where mirage makes it very difficult to ensure the parallax is correct. What's happening is the even shadow around the ocular is indicating that your optical path through the scope is lined up and centered, or make a pinhole in your cap. See more here: https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...allenge-match-11-22-2020.6980614/post-8556127It would be best if you lined up correctly, and that parallax doesn't make you think the loop window is clear. The other issue you'll encounter is that you can not accurately scale the opening. In this case, We'll give you the opening size so you'll be able to work out the math if you want to understand what's happening.First, think of the loophole as a near range target with a secondary target at the end. So, let's use the very same base number for reticle ranging. 27.78 is the number used to mil range targets in the distance using inches of target height - (Target size in inches x 27.78) / Mils = yardage
1. Let's rearrange that formula slightly to get the mil size of a target. In this case, we'll use a 2" target (or opening) and known yardage.1mil = 3.6” @ 100y100mil = 3.6” @ 1y or 3’3.6” is 0.2778 of 1”100mil x 0.2778 = 27.7827.78 mil per 1” opening @ 3’At 12’ (3’x4) it is : 27.78 / 4 = 6.945mil per “ of opening2” opening at 12’ measures 13.89milsThe formula shows us our operational window, even if it is too close to the reticle measure clearly via our scopes.2. Using your solver, set the target distance to the distance of the obstruction. We need to find out what problems the distance creates for or SOB and the bullet arc at the distance to the loop wall. This will show you just how low the center of your projectile will be below your POA.Here I set my target distance to 12' or 4 yards so that I can see how many mils below my crosshairs the center of the bullet is.So I have 15mils let say 17mils for safety under my unaltered crosshairs to clear the lower part of the loop.3. Subtract your come-ups from your intended target from the bullet path.Target @ 900Y = U6mils17-6mils = 11milsAs long as I can see 11 mills under my targe I should be GTG - (remember the loop is 13.9 mils from that distance)But wait, some cases are not that simple, if the distance creates come-up that is larger than the bullet path is creating then you have to also be concerned about the top of the loop. Let's say I am back further and the target is further. Let’s use 10y; at 10y, I only need U5.2, let's say U7 for safety. With a target at 1400 yards, I’d need U13. Now your safety is also above the crosshairs with maybe 10mils (8mils + 2mils for safety), as well as below.4. Or you can use a program like FFS and all the math is done for you. But really the thread is about understanding a bit more and if nothing else, just to get you to think how all these parts work together.5. The entire key is in the tripod height setup.If you set the target up like most people would, your sure to impact the loop's boundary.If we remember from the above sample we needed about 11mils of clearance below our POA in order not to clip the bottom of the loophole. The way to accomplish this is to set your tripod height high enough so the target is very close to the top of the loophole, not centered.Depending on distance to the loop and target distance, the image below is how the sight picture might look.
The truth be told, for the set up we're presenting, if you do this and set up towards the rear of the hide, you'll do just fine without any math— just don't tell anyone you know the code.
6. The Key is teamworkThe Key to this stage is how your team helps each other fine-tune their tripod heights to set up the sight picture like above and to fight the clock. When we used adjustable center columns, this was much easier to do by yourself. But they tripods were so wobbly the target needed to be substantial. It might be a good idea to go back to the tripod tips segment and see why I suggested always error on setting up too high. It is just way easier and faster to micro-adjust your height using gravity, don't try to fight it. Consent communication is going to play a role in your team's organization on every stage, but this one will take more than most. If you are moving the rifle in this stage OR making a tripod adjustment, the gun must be safe, unloaded, bolt back, and mag removed.My approach would be (not the only way):1. Both teammates use their binos and line up their loop with their selected target choice. Ensure that the target appears near the top of the loop but in the center of the Binos. Each shooter should make a mental note of exactly how heigh their Binos need to be to look at the target correctly.2. Each teammate should reference the bino height of the other as well, so that when tripods are set you’ll have a second set of memories and communicate if you see your partner is setting up at the wrong height. These levels will be just about the same for your scopes. Again, if you are going to error, and you will, error on the slightly higher side.3. Both shooters start setting up their tripods at the rough height with the rifles still staged on the dirt, bolts back mags out.4. The shooter in the higher loop would get the most attention first; as soon as he thinks he's close to having the height, he should mount his rifle, noting the above safety rule (his teammate can help). On glass, the shooter, should be communicating to his teammate if he needs the tripod to go up or down. I would have my teammate helping make these adjustments. Once shooter one is ready, he should confirm with the RO he is making ready, firing through the appropriate loop and confirm the target.5. Shooter two should be on his tripod with his gun mounted (bolts back mags out) and adjusting solo while shooter one is shooting. When ready, he can tell the RO he is making ready. Shooter two should be on his target and ready, if not, shooter one will need to finish his COF and make safe before they can help shooter two.As I said, you should always be talking, shooter one should be giving wind to shooter two because shooter two can not see shooter one’s targets through their loop and probably will be setting up.
The shooting will be relatively easy, the time management difficult. This is something as a team you can practice; you do not even need to fire a shot, so practicing at home is valuable. Time can slip away, again as a team; you should be watching your timer or watch. Remember, the smaller targets three impacts are worth a high point value; if the first shooter runs over their time, it might make sense to skip the bigger target and let shooter two bank points. That said, if you practice, you will have time.How does this apply in the wild?Of course, if you make a makeshift Hide like above it is easy to see the application. Knowing your limitations and windows will allow you to make a more stealthy natural hide/blind.Shooting over walls, stumps, rocks, etc. that are between you and the animal is a good example of where you need to think about this very process. Hopefully, if nothing else this provides a bit of entertainment or maybe even inspiration to make a natural hide/blind next season.Back to the index of Tips and tricks:Advanced Marksmanship - Tips & Tricks, from Tripods to Stage Examples for - UKD Team Field Match or Hunting
See the 2021 match schedule here: https://www.avenaltactical.com/ including the next UKD Team Match, 2 PRS Pro Bolt series, PRS SW Regional Qualifier, and monthly Hunter and PRS regional series, matches. Because our match was sold out 10 months in advance, we feel we should offer a spin up...www.snipershide.com
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I end up ranging near the end of the scope not really the turret nor the muzzle. My point was, exaggerated a bit because most people will range standing well behind the butt of the rifle were they might stand before they lay down.
The gravity drops are from the muzzle, but the calibration is from the turrets. As long as your in the ballpark, you’ll be fine. it is actually an easy target if you don’t let the pencil get in your head
Dave's Devious Dope Test; ......." if you hit a target other than yours, or shoot too many targets, your Team will get a zero for that target set....."
Target 1: ...."It does not matter who ends up braking both targets, so working as a team is best."
Target 3 - The Team must range the target and are ONLY allowed 2 shots, hit or miss, with hits worth 5 points each.
If you need ACCURATELY to identify a close-range obstruction closer than your scope can resolve, you can pop a hole in your objective scope cap and drastically increase your depth of field. Unfortunately, smaller holes yield more depth of field and depending on the size of your hole; your image brightness will drastically decrease.
This is fun stuff - a couple of questions......
1. You note that it doesn't matter which team member hits a target as long as the targets are hit to advance - but you also note that "if you hit a target other than yours, or too many targets" ?? Just clarifying - there will be other targets that the team could mistakenly hit if they aren't careful to be on the right target - correct?
2. Target 3 - the group on the Ace of Spades - does each team member take 1 shot - or can 1 team member take both shots? I would think 1 shooter has a better chance of placing both shots close from the same rifle/position.
3. I tried the small hole in my lens cap to see if the loop hole edges would be clearer. I put the loop hole at 8 ft (2.6 yds) and there was only very minor improvement - nothing like the clarity of the pencils in the picture. I assume there are limitations - like the object has to be 5+ yds or more or something?
Stay safe.Sorry guys I was planning on posting the next topic this Monday, but we we’re evacuated and I don’t have access to what I need.
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This picture is from my near my back deck. Looks like we’ll be out for up to a couple weeks, assuming more fires don’t start in this next freak lighting event predicted for Sunday through Tuesday.
I’ll get the next topic up one way or the other shortly!
PS. Sorry to my friends and fellow shooters that already lost their homes.
Hope y'all make it out ok.Sorry guys I was planning on posting the next topic this Monday, but we we’re evacuated and I don’t have access to what I need.
View attachment 7405082
This picture is from my near my back deck. Looks like we’ll be out for up to a couple weeks, assuming more fires don’t start in this next freak lighting event predicted for Sunday through Tuesday.
I’ll get the next topic up one way or the other shortly!
PS. Sorry to my friends and fellow shooters that already lost their homes.
Sorry guys I was planning on posting the next topic this Monday, but we we’re evacuated and I don’t have access to what I need.
View attachment 7405082
This picture is from my near my back deck. Looks like we’ll be out for up to a couple weeks, assuming more fires don’t start in this next freak lighting event predicted for Sunday through Tuesday.
I’ll get the next topic up one way or the other shortly!
PS. Sorry to my friends and fellow shooters that already lost their homes.
Another great post Jim, thoughts on the trade-off of the lock in vs able table approach?under construction:
TIP: What to carry.
Well, the options certainly vary, and much will be a personal choice or basis, depending on the team. One thing is certain, anticipate that both shooters should have the ability to do all tasks simultaneously. While there will not be restrictions on sharing gear, other than repair tools and spare mags, except in some particular and limited cases, sharing gear will come with a huge time penalty. Each should have their rifle support tools, PLRFs, timmers, and arm boards or place to write dope and notes. Most of this part has been covered in previous tips and tricks. If you haven't viewed them, I'd suggest you go back to the main index and read through them if you have questions on these items. Here
Range finding, Target ID, and spotting: 1 eachBefore we start, I wanna make sure that I get all of my biases and preferences laid out on the table. I believe that it's essential to be transparent in what works for me and why I do what I do versus what will work best for you.I have dedicated optics for bow hunting, long-range hunting, spotting, and match shooting, and I have not found one optic that does everything entirely well. I've also found that most optics with integrated rangefinding tend to be of lesser optical quality than high-end alpha glass. There are very few optics with stellar glass and integrated range finders; those that are optical equals tend to have ranging capabilities that are lower than available in dedicated PLRFs. Because for every continuous minute, I use a rangefinder, I spend many hours looking through the optic; I'm just not willing to give up comfort or optical quality for integration.The best option might be your integrated Binos, especially those that spitting out our dope. That said, something like the 7x Liecia PLRF has an apparent FOV of 6.6°, so other than magnification and optical quality, you're going to do just fine if that is all you have. As an example, I think @hic28 has won a UKD match recently doing primarily just that.Ideally, though, I use a chest rig by KUIU, with the binos and PLRF tethered, so I can drop and go if need be. It provides fast access, and I would say that while I have binos in the pack, 90-95% of the time, all I am pulling out is my PLRF. I generally eyeball the area during the brief, walk up to the FFP, still eyeballing targets, and it is always enough to know if standing is the only option; If I get really stuck, I'll pull out the binos. I set up the tripod and generally defaulting to the highest position, often just attaching the rifle and use the top of my scope as a support base for my PLRF.Here are my recommendations for ranging:
- Make sure both partners have a good range finder.
- If you don't have great binos or a PLRF. by all means, consider an integrated set of Binos
- If you use binos bring a chest rig
- Don't go out and replace our PLRF with range-finding binos if you have an excellent PLRF already- unless you're made of $$.
- Do NOT bring a dedicated spotter. In most cases, if there is an opportunity to spot, you'll be using your rifle scope.
- Review "Knowing your PLRF thread. Tips: PLRF beam verification techniques post #123
Images of chest rig - coming soonTripod: 1 eachDecide on whether or not you'll be using the faster Able Table and heavy bags like a heavy Pint GC or Schedium; or you're going to lock into a head like the Anvil 30. Please do not skimp on the tripod; you can shoot from it on every station, and both shooters need one. I put a couple of quick links below.
check back -close of business 9*17 for images and finished post
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Diver I see in the pic of your tripod it looks like you have a combination of metal feet and rubber ones. Am I seeing that correct? Can you school me on this?
Thanks, never thought of that.It serves no functional purpose day to day, on concrete, it is a feature that takes away from the performance. But, this is for one hunt a year during late rifle. If I am lucky enough to be able to add weight from the mountain and carry a heavy load and on steep hills without my poles, I'll extend that one leg and use it like a really stable hiking pole. It has saved my ass side-hilling and on the descent.
I usually carry a set of 10oz Carbon Z-poles, but it is often faster just to use the tripod
Was there any more word on any range practice days? I haven't received any emails since June. Just making sure we're not missing anything.
Will there be any more Tips and Tricks posts? We are closing in fast on this match!!
I believe there is a minimum of 74 for each shooter, but there are a couple of unlimited targets that @Diver160651 mentioned in the hints.What’s the round count for the match?
Will be allowed to use a calculator when doing the reticle ranging calculation??The problems with Reticle Ranging for Precision Rifle:
If I ask you why you use an FFP (first focal plane) scope for precision rifle shooting, what would your answer be? I'd like you to pause and answer it out loud.
If one of the top 3 reasons is reticle ranging, I hope to change your mind. If we could agree on an FFP scope's true value, I think you will appreciate why we are doing what we are on the reticle ranging stage of the UKD Team match. I also hope it will become easier to see the broader applications and real value, such as hunting at longer ranges.
Again, being honest with ourselves, unless we had a mentor, our first purchase of a modern subtensioned scope probably resulted in you trying to figure out whether a MIL-based or MOA-based scope would be best. In large part, most likely based on what you thought would be the easiest to use with a ranging formula. There is nothing increasingly wrong with that idea, just that it illustrates placing purchasing priorities in the wrong place based on poor information out of the gate.
I will come right out and say it; reticle ranging small targets at long ranges just does not work well. As we go on, I'm going to cite examples that defeat these scopes' ability to range with acceptable accuracy for our shots, especially considering the proliferation of cheap, accurate PLRFs. But first, let's take a step back and create some contextual guardrails. Without them, my examples and our tips on what to look out for on this stage and the targets we use will seem to make less sense.
Let's generalize and create three primary user groups for FFP scopes, medium-range Military use, hunting medium to long-range, and Precision Rifle (PRS/NRL Feild type long-range matches).
Hunting medium to long-range use:Hunting is unique in that an "ethical" vital zone shot is relatively small compared to Military sized targets and does NOT scale larger as range increases. A classic 8" Pie plate sounds huge at <200 yards, but that same pie plate is .95MOA by 800 yards, PR targets tend to get larger with increased range as they try to stay true to an angular theme. Knowing the exact range is critical for long-range shots on animals and accounting for wind far more essential than most hunters realize. The animal size is unknown with certainty, and the angle to the shooter is an estimation. Having scaled wind holds is, in my opinion, a necessity for long-range hunting. An accurate wind scale at any magnification is were an FFP scope shines.Precision Rifle use:Targets tend to be 2MOA and scale with distance. The range is almost always provided unless you are purposefully seeking matches like the TEAM UKD, Safari Steel Challange, SH Cup, and RTC. PR, (PRS/NRL type) is often more about building a stable position under time pressure. Like hunting, the primary use is accurate wind holds, followed by evaluation holds and communication at any magnification.Military use: I will reverse my rhetoric and say reticle ranging for quick snapshots IS the principal use, and "range estimation" IS a primary feature. So wait, what is it? You can't have it both ways ou say, I agree. It is not the same; a human or more politically correct, NATO E-type Silhouette Targe is a giant-sized target compared to or PRS 2MOA targets or vitals on an animal. A NATO E-type Silhouette Target if you don't know is about 40"x19.5" or at 500 yards, roughly 7.65 MOA/2.22 Mils vertically. Let's compare the standard PRS target at about 10" and 8" vitals on an animal that is now only 1.5MOA, and it is easy to imagine the animal will have the least room for ranging error with the Nato E more than generous. It is also worth noting that a bit of optical disturbance or LOS angle plays a much smaller part at medium ranges on giant targets.
Apply an example using a PR cartridge, as it will be the most range insensitive, in other words working against my point. I'll use a 115gr going 3,000fps at the 500y E target needing 2.3mils for a centered impact. This gives me 1.1mils both below and above for poor range estimation. In other words, from 335yards to 635yards, the plate will ring. In contrast to the PRS sized target, where I only have .28mils of tolerance above and below or were a read of 540yards would result in a clean miss, worse yet, with the smaller size of an animal's vitals.The above comparison is unrealistic because it assumes one was able to range the targets with absolute certainty. Let apply a few very real but underrealized modifiers to our reticle-ranging scenario. Optical disturbances, be it a mirage (heat shimmer), sun flair, moister, dirt, or even color, will make targets harder to resolve and appear bigger, while the target angle will reduce the perceived target size. Small targets are more range sensitive, as illustrated above but also MUCH harder to scale correctly.
Small Targets:
1MOA/.29mils become more sensitive to read errors, just like it is when you zero your scope on paper. Even at 100yards, it can be challenging to see the difference between the finest adjustments, returning to a PRS target sized example, but at 695yards, it makes sense that scaling the target to perfection is just about impossible. See the first image below. Some of the targets is a hair above the cross-hair and a bit below the .5mil Strada line. It appears to be just over .5mils and it's your guess as to the exact read, maybe in perfect air, it would read under .5 mils (it should read .49mils BTW.). So already we might be estimating the range 30-35yards short.View attachment 7436381
Mirage (technically Heat Shimmer) and other optical disturbances:
Optical disturbances can add 20-30% to the perceived size. It is quite common for the mirage to make the target appear much larger as well; let's say it appears to read .65mils, that tiny .15 misread will have you think the range is 100yards short! The projected drop for that actual target is U4mils, but your read is U3, and that's not good in the precision rifleman's world. Below is the same place an hour or so later as the heat shimmer increased; although light, certainly ads about .1-.2mil. Note the images represent very mild heat shimmer.Target Color:
Target color can often cause targets to glow and appear larger, especially bright fluorescent yellows, oranges, and pinks. Depending on the sunlight, these might apear between a .05mil and .1mil larger.
Angles are a reality:
Below are representations of two targets BOTH are at the same distance and BOTH are 14" squares. Can you tell me how that is possible??If the plate on the left is tilted down 45 degrees, and away 45 degrees and far enough away, the plate will appear about half the size. If you do not know the angle and the angle is compound, this of course now makes a know-sized target, unknow and almost useless to reticle range.When you are dealing with small targets, optical disturbances and funky colors all on the same target be aware of the stacking effect you can be dealing with. If you find you're sailing over a target and that target isn't crystal clear assume you've overestimated the target size. Make sure you attend to identify if a target has an angle that might impact our read, a circle should look circular, squares as squares, use other known objects nearby if you can; use the largest item you can. Hint bomb.
Expect to see 3-4 smaller PRS sized targets on the UKD Reticle ranging stage, presenting the challenges above. No, we're not going to set up E- sized targets and yes, you'll miss your range finder. Of course, those that have read this thread may find the clues in the stage brief more helpful than the teams that didn't. Oh, I would write down the size for common-sized items are that you might see on a range, like a 55-gallon barrel container, car tire, a ram from a 500m Silhouette, and a pig from the 300m line and Standard T-post in the ground just past the spade. Hint bomb.
I hope that the next time someone asks you why you use an FFP with a subtensioned reticle, you answer something like this: It provides an accurate wind-hold, and hold-overs at any magnification, corrections are accurate, and helps me communicate quickly and accurately.
Top reasons to purchase an FFP, regardless of magnification levels for the PR shooter:1. Accurate/fast wind holds2. Flash milling wind budgets (targets angular size)3. Accurate//fast holdovers4. Accurate//fast corrections5. Accurate/clear communication
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Of course, if you read hints, use big targets instead of small. The error stacking ends up being smallerWill be allowed to use a calculator when doing the reticle ranging calculation??
Thanks. The Field Tips section mentions a car tire and t-post that are on the range. Since many of us will be arriving at the range the morning of, will there be a chance to see or measure the tire or post before the start? I know there is a wide variance in tire sizes between my little sedan and 4x4 truck.
Points Matrix | |
Total possible Team points | 288 |
Team Rounds (min)* | 134 |
* Stage 5a has two targets that are unlimited shots. A perfect score is only 13 shots, but count on more. |
a debrief woud be great. our greatest loss of time was in acquiring the tgts . did not realize how fast 6 mins flys by, in hind sight i wish, at our level of shooting, that we stopped searching for tgts at maybe 4 mins and just shot what we found. we tried to find all the tgts first. i dont think we were good enough for that.John I wish I would have know it was your Son! Congratulations on jumping into the deep end.
I hope to shoot with you soon! The guys in Nevada have a fun match too.
I might be writing a bit of a debrief if it might be helpful. Remember the hole? “Only room for one rifle at at time” -the solution was to both use the same tripod and rifle.
Jim