Rifle Scopes Which Crossover Scope would you choose?

Glassaholic · Feb 17, 2025

Wy Devil pup said:
@Glassaholic and @C_Does, First, thank you for what you both do. I've spent hours reading your reviews and watching your videos, you are invaluable assets. I've finally quite lurking, and made an account so I can get your opinions.

Welcome lurker

, I did the same many years ago as well as many guys here, you're in good company.

Wy Devil pup said:
The TLDR is what you each think of the IQ and eye box of the T6Xi 3-18 vs LHT 4.5-22.

Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56 has a great eyebox, very forgiving to about 16x then gets a bit finicky. The LHT is about average, not the best but not the worse either.

Wy Devil pup said:
The long of it is this. I have a 20 inch 5.56 gas gun that was my go to rifle for a decade. My truck gun, training rifle, 3 gun rifle, 800 yards on steel, coyote rifle, spotlighting gun and prairie dog gun. Up until I got out of the military, back in Wyoming, and got a can. Now its too long so its getting reworked to become a 16 inch dissipator with an OCM5. The rifle has had a PST-2.5-10x32 on in for most of its life, but I'm done dealing with the non locking turrets

Why do you say you are "done with non-locking turrets?" I assume you've had issues with the use for this rifle and the turrets not staying at zero? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with locking turrets, but I would posit that the PST 2.5-10 may not have the best turrets in the industry so you may fair better with a better scope even without locking turrets... maybe.

Wy Devil pup said:
, find myself wanting a more complex reticle, better IQ, and wouldn't mind a bit more magnification, particularly for spotting impacts and killing prairie dogs.

Fair enough

Wy Devil pup said:
In seeking an optic I considered everything on the spread sheet and a few optics that aren't, ranging from the Burris XTR3 3-18 to the TT315.
I initially focused on S&B (I run a 5-25 PMII Tremor 3 on my PRS gun) but found that cost/weight/reticle selection just didn't make it worth it to me.

The 3-20x50 ultra short was supposed to come with TR2ID reticle but I don't see any at EO... I assume it was the reticle that was the issue as it is only 2oz heavier than the ATACR 4-16?

Wy Devil pup said:
I ruled out March for glass quality/eye box/cost.

Depends on the March, the 4.5-28x52 has excellent glass, decent eyebox and costs less than the Schmidt... This scope is essentially the same size as the ATACR 4-16x42 with regard to length and weight and FOV is greater at 4.5x than ATACR at 4x. For those who love the ATACR but feel they want a little more magnification I highly recommend it.

Wy Devil pup said:
Ruled out the MK5 for the hit and miss reviews, especially compared to 4-16 ATACR, and the cost of a ilm tremor3, even with a Mil discount. (yall are right, they needa do a PR2 with illumination

Right there with you...

Wy Devil pup said:
The TT and ZCO I decided to wait on till I get a 6 ARC built.

Wy Devil pup said:
Current front runner is the 4-16 ATACR (waiting on NF to get back to me with Mil pricing and lead times) even though the rotating ocular drives me nuts as I really like my dope in my scope cap.

Can't go wrong with the ATACR unless you need something more at the bottom or top of the mag range. I would not worry about waiting for mil discount from NF, talk to CS Tactical and other Hide vendors who sell NF and I bet they can match the NF mil discount...

Wy Devil pup said:
Along with the T6Xi 3-18 and the Razor LHT 4.5-20. The draw of the LHT is the weight, and a more usable low mag reticle, especially compared to the rather portly Steiner and the SCR2 limited usability. The Steiner's superior turrets seem nice and I would expect a better image, more forgiving eye box and, I also like the larger FOV.

Steiner QC is somewhat hit and miss, but I do like the 3-18x56 but agree with you it is a bit chonky for a gas gun, but with that comes a very forgiving design. You might actually like the SCR2 reticle, even at low mag with illumination.

Wy Devil pup said:
It should be stated I almost never dial on this rifle and almost never turned the PST down from 10x, I run a piggyback T2 and am extremely comfortable with it, even without a Christmas tree I've probably only touched the turrets on the PST three or four times, which is good because I doubt the track very well. Aside from setting them back to zero every other day... which is the main reason I'm upgrading.

Hence your desire for locking turrets...

Wy Devil pup said:
I think you would both say the ATACR is the obvious choice for me, and my decision may be easy once I hear from nightforce on pricing/lead time.

One of my favorites for a gas gun and even as a crossover for a hunting/LR rig. But as I mentioned before, don't wait for mil, call Richard at CS Tactical and Doug at Cameralandny (both are Hide vendors, both sell NF and both do not charge ST if you're outside their state... and both give great deals over the phone)

Wy Devil pup said:
That said, between the light weight of the Razor, vs the better turrets, better illumination controls, better(?) eye box, and better FOV, better zero stop, and better low light performance on the Steiner which optic would you each recommend?

Did you read my review where I compare the Steiner to the ATACR, that has some good information there. Both have some pros and cons.

Wy Devil pup said:
The Burris XTR isn't out though I see it as a lower quality Steiner and wouldnt expect the IQ to stack up with either the Razor or Steiner.

Burris does not have locking turrets unless they changed something recently???

Wy Devil pup said:
It may be worth waiting for the new S&B 3-18 or the Primary arms PLx 2.5-20.

Yes, the new Schmidt 3-18x42 is likely worth waiting for, the question is how long? Schmidt says summer, but Schmidt also has a sketchy track record of delivering product on time, especially to the US market. I do expect the new Meta 3-18 to be an excellent option, but at over twice the price of the ATACR (MSRP is at $4990 right now) you would have to REALLY want 3x on bottom and 18x on top to make it worth the price of two ATACR's. I expect after a few months of lackluster sales in the US we'll see Schmidt drop the MAP price of the FFP Meta similar to what they did with the 6-36x56 after it released.

Wy Devil pup said:
Thank you in advance gentlemen or any of you other optics wizs on here.

Happy to help when I can...

WyoChance · Mar 3, 2025

carbonbased said:
While you wait for those two dudes to chime in, here is my 2¢.

Sounds like you want locking turrets, or locking elevation/capped windage. I’m right there with you.

And the gun is for pdog shooting. You don’t dial much, and are always at 10x (the max of your current scope).

But you don’t want a “typical” pdog mag range of 5-25? Dang.

Its not so much that I dont want that mag range, but I dont want the weight that comes with most of those designs.

carbonbased said:
Ok. Not sure why but I’ll roll with it. I’m a pdog shootin’ fool.

I own three Razor 4.5-22 scopes (two are mounted, one still in the box), so I’ll comment on that. It has only a few faults and is nice.

Faults for me:

FOV is a bit constricted

Image is smallish (separate from FOV & eyebox)

Old-style locking diopter is slow to focus

Zoom & focus knobs can be very stiff, in cooler weather, esp.

The FOV isn’t a huge deal, I just zoom out more. Price I’ll pay for lightness. I’d prefer it be wider, though.

The image presents kinda small. This seems different than FOV and eyebox, but it may not be. Like, the eyepiece doesn't “blow up” the image, so it feels a little more “looking through a straw”. Conversely, the Razor G2 4.5-27 has a “HD TV sitting right in front of you” feel to it.

I can imagine a wide FOV but on a tiny TV, however, so I don’t know how else to describe what I see.

These above two issues are the biggest negs to me.

I don’t mess with the diopter much so it hasn’t created problems for me.

I have added throw levers to the zoom rings of my two mounted samples, as they are stiff even in warm weather. Their parallax knob seems to loosen up in warm weather…but it gets stiff in winter. I wish the knob had more diameter to it for leverage.

I bet if I send them back to Vortex for the stiffness issues that they could adjust that. But I don’t want to remount/rezero the scopes lol.

Other faults for some (but not me).

Turrets are mushy (but I don’t care as I don’t dial either)

Illumination control is subpar. I don’t use it anyway.

Pros:

Super light!

Reticle is ideal for pdog shooting IMHO

Neutral

Eyebox is fine. Not bad, not great.

Image is fine

The more Ive read the more I think the LHT is not for me. The FOV is much smaller then I think Id like, the illumination would drive me nuts, the 6 mil turrets might be more of an issue then I thought because, duh, as I go up in magnification I have less tree to work with... and above all, I doubt Ill be happy with the glass quality. But dang it is light and cheap!

carbonbased said:
FOV & eyebox compared to some scopes I own:

PST II 5-25 has more FOV & better eyebox.

PST 3-15 has WAY more FOV (same FOV as the TT 3-15!) & better eyebox. A true sleeper; wish turrets were locking.

Razor G2 4.5-27 has a huge image, more FOV and a much better eyebox but is made of lead (which is great for my application)

NF NX8 4-32 has more FOV but eyebox I can’t remember (but is heavier and elevation turret is non-locking)

All four of the above also have “bigger TV” images when compared to the Razor 4.5-22.

An ATACR 4-20 would seem to fit the bill but (as you undoubtedly know) it has a non-locking elevation turret. So that leaves me suggesting the ZCO 4-20, which IIRC @koshkin says might be the best of their lineup. But…just noticed you’re waiting on a 6arc for one of those.

Yeah, all of those optics have some dealbreaker for me, Id like to not spend 4k on this when the 4-16 locking turret ATACR exists, just wish it had a larger FOV.

carbonbased said:
Note that I haven’t used either of these two above scopes.

Btw everything I’ve read about March suggests they have great glass, so not sure where you have heard that they don’t? Eyebox issues I have only read about on their 3-24x model…not sure if it was the 42mm or 52mm or both.

The more extreme Marchs, 1-10, 1.5-15, 2.5-25 seem to suffer from eye box and image quality issues, though I truthfully havent looked at everything they offer and theres not a ton of reviews out there. Typically though, if I see an 8x erector, Im not interested, the only one that I'm actually interested in is the S&B 1-8 Dual CC... but not at 5500...

Thank you for your input sir!

WyoChance · Mar 3, 2025

Glassaholic said:
Welcome lurker , I did the same many years ago as well as many guys here, you're in good company.

Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56 has a great eyebox, very forgiving to about 16x then gets a bit finicky. The LHT is about average, not the best but not the worse either.

What I was really hoping for was a directing comment on resolution of the LHT vs the T6Xi, your individual reviews. You list the LHT at 18x having 38-44 lp/mm while the Stiener is 33-34 lp/mm and the S&B at 34-35 lp/mm. I have a hard time believing that the LHT is out doing the S&B so Im wondering whats actually going on there, be it different test days, eyes feeling different, or a different test method? It might be a mute point as the more I have looked the more I suspect the LHT is not for me between FOV, Turrets, ilm controls. Of course, if it will help me spot 5.56 impacts at 800, cut through glare, let me see low contrast targets at long range, then I might get over all that.

Glassaholic said:
Why do you say you are "done with non-locking turrets?" I assume you've had issues with the use for this rifle and the turrets not staying at zero? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with locking turrets, but I would posit that the PST 2.5-10 may not have the best turrets in the industry so you may fair better with a better scope even without locking turrets... maybe.

Might be an overstatement, Im sure Id have no issues with TT turrets, but generally speaking, due to where my rifle rides, locking is pretty important to me. Though it hasnt caused me to write off the 4-20 ATACR yet.

Glassaholic said:
Fair enough

The 3-20x50 ultra short was supposed to come with TR2ID reticle but I don't see any at EO... I assume it was the reticle that was the issue as it is only 2oz heavier than the ATACR 4-16?

Reticle/Cost on both the 5-20 and 3-20 is what ruled it out, I doubt Id like the GR2ID and compared to the March and ATACR glass is close but both are cheaper/lighter/equally ergonomic.

Glassaholic said:
Depends on the March, the 4.5-28x52 has excellent glass, decent eyebox and costs less than the Schmidt... This scope is essentially the same size as the ATACR 4-16x42 with regard to length and weight and FOV is greater at 4.5x than ATACR at 4x. For those who love the ATACR but feel they want a little more magnification I highly recommend it.

I think I was focusing on the 8x and 10x erector Marchs and Ive put the march back on the list

Glassaholic said:
Right there with you...

Can't go wrong with the ATACR unless you need something more at the bottom or top of the mag range. I would not worry about waiting for mil discount from NF, talk to CS Tactical and other Hide vendors who sell NF and I bet they can match the NF mil discount...

I actually called CS before I posted this base off another on of your posts, they told me just go through NF, mil discount is lower then retail cost.

Glassaholic said:
Steiner QC is somewhat hit and miss, but I do like the 3-18x56 but agree with you it is a bit chonky for a gas gun, but with that comes a very forgiving design. You might actually like the SCR2 reticle, even at low mag with illumination.

Hence your desire for locking turrets...

One of my favorites for a gas gun and even as a crossover for a hunting/LR rig. But as I mentioned before, don't wait for mil, call Richard at CS Tactical and Doug at Cameralandny (both are Hide vendors, both sell NF and both do not charge ST if you're outside their state... and both give great deals over the phone)

Did you read my review where I compare the Steiner to the ATACR, that has some good information there. Both have some pros and cons.

Burris does not have locking turrets unless they changed something recently???

I did not realize that on the burris, off the list.

Glassaholic said:
Yes, the new Schmidt 3-18x42 is likely worth waiting for, the question is how long? Schmidt says summer, but Schmidt also has a sketchy track record of delivering product on time, especially to the US market. I do expect the new Meta 3-18 to be an excellent option, but at over twice the price of the ATACR (MSRP is at $4990 right now) you would have to REALLY want 3x on bottom and 18x on top to make it worth the price of two ATACR's. I expect after a few months of lackluster sales in the US we'll see Schmidt drop the MAP price of the FFP Meta similar to what they did with the 6-36x56 after it released.

Happy to help when I can...

Your the best man, you ask the right question and make the right observations forcing a guy to think. It is certainly time for an upgrade. I was shooting this weekend and my first shot was a foot over the target, I had zeroed the PST turrets but they had spun nearly a full revolution riding around in the truck over the week. Then at 400 yards at a 5"x7" white and gray target at a high angle in a shadow in the snow and sagebrush, with sun hitting my lens in a bad way... it was all I could do to find it and Im the one who put it there. No issue hitting hit once found but my gosh that was a perfect storm where Im sure better glass wouldve made all the difference.

After reading your high mag alpha glass review today Im half tempted to buy a G3 Razor for my PRS gun and put my 5-25 PMII on my gas gun. Of course now I have a 3LB optic stack once I add a mount and T2... which again is so close to the stiener it turns me off to that deal too.

But is the ATACR worth 700-1k more to save 5oz?

Is the March 1.5-15 dfp shuriken worth another 1k to save another 5 oz and deal with the poor eye box and less then alpha glass for 3k? I dont think so. Then is the 4.5-28 worth close to double the cost over the ATACR at the same weight? Probs not for me as I dont need the upper mag range and 16x on an ATACR would be good enough.

Glassaholic · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
What I was really hoping for was a directing comment on resolution of the LHT vs the T6Xi, your individual reviews. You list the LHT at 18x having 38-44 lp/mm while the Stiener is 33-34 lp/mm and the S&B at 34-35 lp/mm. I have a hard time believing that the LHT is out doing the S&B so Im wondering whats actually going on there, be it different test days, eyes feeling different, or a different test method?

On newer reviews I have a disclaimer to not compare resolution tests from different days, absolutely a different day and different time of day can have an effect on the number of lines I can see, I have seen variation of up to 10lpi with the same scope at same distance just on different days. I never had the LHT 4.5-22 side by side with the US 3-20 so difficult to say what they would do.

WyoChance said:
It might be a mute point as the more I have looked the more I suspect the LHT is not for me between FOV, Turrets, ilm controls. Of course, if it will help me spot 5.56 impacts at 800, cut through glare, let me see low contrast targets at long range, then I might get over all that.

Sounds like you've made a good decision based on your needs, the LHT was designed to be light - first and foremost, but it also means it has some compromises, some are willing to accept those compromises to get the weight reduction while others are not, there is no right or wrong answer here.

WyoChance said:
Might be an overstatement, Im sure Id have no issues with TT turrets, but generally speaking, due to where my rifle rides, locking is pretty important to me. Though it hasnt caused me to write off the 4-20 ATACR yet.

ATACR turrets in general are really nice. But is the 20x worth it over the locking turret of the 4-16?

WyoChance said:
Reticle/Cost on both the 5-20 and 3-20 is what ruled it out, I doubt Id like the GR2ID and compared to the March and ATACR glass is close but both are cheaper/lighter/equally ergonomic.

Schmidt's are at stupid prices right now, history has proved they do this for a while and then bring prices back down (I assume once their sales falloff considerably), there is too much competition and good optics to choose from to pay the current Schmidt USA pricing.

WyoChance said:
I think I was focusing on the 8x and 10x erector Marchs and Ive put the march back on the list

The 8x March like the 3-24x52 is an excellent 3-18 scope and a really good 3-20 scope, above 20x and that image starts to really struggle. The 10x March like the 1.5-15x42 is outstanding to 10x, very good to 12x and pretty good to 15x when it comes to IQ, but you get the lighter weight and the extreme mag range along with an excellent DFP reticle, the scope is not for everyone but I think it is one of the best MPVO designs we have right now, especially if you want/need a little greater range than say a 2-10 for example...

WyoChance said:
I actually called CS before I posted this base off another on of your posts, they told me just go through NF, mil discount is lower then retail cost.

Really, I guess NF has hunkered down on dealers giving good deals

WyoChance said:
Your the best man, you ask the right question and make the right observations forcing a guy to think. It is certainly time for an upgrade. I was shooting this weekend and my first shot was a foot over the target, I had zeroed the PST turrets but they had spun nearly a full revolution riding around in the truck over the week. Then at 400 yards at a 5"x7" white and gray target at a high angle in a shadow in the snow and sagebrush, with sun hitting my lens in a bad way... it was all I could do to find it and Im the one who put it there. No issue hitting hit once found but my gosh that was a perfect storm where Im sure better glass wouldve made all the difference.

This is definitely where better glass is going to help.

WyoChance said:
After reading your high mag alpha glass review today Im half tempted to buy a G3 Razor for my PRS gun and put my 5-25 PMII on my gas gun. Of course now I have a 3LB optic stack once I add a mount and T2... which again is so close to the stiener it turns me off to that deal too.

But is the ATACR worth 700-1k more to save 5oz?

I assume that was rhetorical, as only you can really answer that question.

WyoChance said:
Is the March 1.5-15 dfp shuriken worth another 1k to save another 5 oz and deal with the poor eye box and less then alpha glass for 3k? I dont think so. Then is the 4.5-28 worth close to double the cost over the ATACR at the same weight? Probs not for me as I dont need the upper mag range and 16x on an ATACR would be good enough.

Again, only you can answer this, but it is hard to answer without seeing them side by side. Hopefully my review of the March with the ATACR 4-16 helps. For me personally, the benefits of the March mag range and reticle outweighed the better optical performance of the ATACR. I am doing an "Update" review on the March 1.5-15 soon and doing a comparison with the RG3 1-10 to give people another metric to look at...

carbonbased · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
the illumination would drive me nuts, the 6 mil turrets might be more of an issue then I thought because, duh, as I go up in magnification I have less tree to work with... and above all, I doubt Ill be happy with the glass quality.

Obviously one does not use illumination while pdog shooting in typically super-bright clear sky conditions. Otherwise the buggers tend to stay in their holes. I assume you know that and want illum for something else.

The magnification thing…so, I don’t have the scope in front of me, but typically I’ve noticed scopes show ~10mils from center when on 20x. You need more than 10mils for drop? At 500yds, which is past a reliable hit % for me with a 204/223, the 53gr Hornady Superperformance 223 round drops ~2.3mils.

Even if you shoot out to 800yds, that’s only a ~6.7mil drop. With 77gr FGMM, the drop is ~8.4mils.

So if you like to hold for drop and wind, you won’t have to touch the turrets, and certainly not for pdogs.

Glass quality: it is a Razor, so the raw optical performance is pretty good. Roughly as good as the Razor G2 4.5-27, and quite a bit better than the PST II 5-25. I don’t look at test charts, but at little varmints, and I haven’t had any issues.

For me, the knock on the scope is the FOV, but you’re going to have to give up something. Otherwise you’d have already found that ideal scope.

carbonbased · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
Its not so much that I dont want that mag range, but I dont want the weight that comes with most of those designs.

Also, as mentioned about compromises, you’re going to have to give up something here. Absolutely.

See below? I arbitrarily picked some of the things you want (or I want lol). No free lunch, man. Plug in your scope and add whatever attributes you want and do this exercise.

RAZOR LHT 4.5-22
- light weight
~~- good-ish FOV~~
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
~~- dial illumination control~~

NF 4-16 ATACR
- light weight
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

MARCH 4.5-28
~~- light weight~~ (light for class, but 30oz is not light)
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

NF 4-20 ATACR
~~- light weight~~
- good-ish FOV
~~- locking turrets~~
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

S&B 3-20 US
~~- light weight~~
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets (available)
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
~~- sub $2k cost~~
- dial illumination control

Btw, personally I think you’ll want 20x at a minimum for pdogs. It’s not like shooting steel where some are happy at 12-15x. But, perhaps you are an anomaly here and will be content at 15x.

Keep in mind scopes tend to suck more at max mag range. That’s why I think a 25x minimum for the top mag is helpful…it makes 20x nicer to use. (20x is where I tend to be a lot of the time)

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

Glassaholic said:
On newer reviews I have a disclaimer to not compare resolution tests from different days, absolutely a different day and different time of day can have an effect on the number of lines I can see, I have seen variation of up to 10lpi with the same scope at same distance just on different days. I never had the LHT 4.5-22 side by side with the US 3-20 so difficult to say what they would do.

Sounds like you've made a good decision based on your needs, the LHT was designed to be light - first and foremost, but it also means it has some compromises, some are willing to accept those compromises to get the weight reduction while others are not, there is no right or wrong answer here.

ATACR turrets in general are really nice. But is the 20x worth it over the locking turret of the 4-16?

Schmidt's are at stupid prices right now, history has proved they do this for a while and then bring prices back down (I assume once their sales falloff considerably), there is too much competition and good optics to choose from to pay the current Schmidt USA pricing.

The 8x March like the 3-24x52 is an excellent 3-18 scope and a really good 3-20 scope, above 20x and that image starts to really struggle. The 10x March like the 1.5-15x42 is outstanding to 10x, very good to 12x and pretty good to 15x when it comes to IQ, but you get the lighter weight and the extreme mag range along with an excellent DFP reticle, the scope is not for everyone but I think it is one of the best MPVO designs we have right now, especially if you want/need a little greater range than say a 2-10 for example...

Really, I guess NF has hunkered down on dealers giving good deals

This is definitely where better glass is going to help.

I assume that was rhetorical, as only you can really answer that question.

Again, only you can answer this, but it is hard to answer without seeing them side by side. Hopefully my review of the March with the ATACR 4-16 helps. For me personally, the benefits of the March mag range and reticle outweighed the better optical performance of the ATACR. I am doing an "Update" review on the March 1.5-15 soon and doing a comparison with the RG3 1-10 to give people another metric to look at...

Gun to my head, I'm leaning toward the T6Xi over the ATACR. Im currently taking a hard look at the weight of my rifle and seeing if I can knock 6-10 oz off it to make up for the weight of the Steiner. I realized there is nothing about the Steiner I don't like aside from the weight. Spending 50% more on the ATACR and having to deal with the tighter FOV and especially the rotating ocular just doesn't sit well with me, the illumination controls don't spark joy either. The ocular being the "feature" I dont want to live with.

Based of your review, Ill enjoy everything about the Steiner aside from the weight, and it will do what I want to do. The glass in low light, and at 200+ yards, is so close to the ATACR and March that I doubt Ill feel its lacking. The forgiving eyebox, wider FOV, usage with a clip on, and low light performance really sell me on it, and reminding myself that I live in Wyoming (windy), and this is going on a 1MOA 5.56 helps me keep in perspective what I need. Most days a coyote at 600, or pdog at 400, is all the further Ill be able to reliably hit and no amount of glass performance will change that. While shooting steel at 800 or maybe 1k Ill rarely if ever notice the lose IQ over the ATACR.

The March 4.5-28 is now, in my mind, a better scope then the ATACR or Steiner, and is going to be a serious contender once Im ready to scope a 6ARC where I can really take advantage of the higher mag/better IQ. Similarly to the Steiner there is nothing on paper I don't like about the March, but for my application I cant personally justify 3 times to cost to save 5ish oz.

I look forward to your review on the 1.5-15 and I may wait to buy until you get it published. I really apricate how you describe the 8x march optics. Though there is the exact Steiner I want on the EE right now...

Fingers crossed March will release more optics with the 6.2 erector. The 10x erector might not be the only thing holding back the optical performance of the 1.5-15, could also be the size/weight. But if I could get 4-16 ATACR glass in 1.5-15 March form factor I would be thrilled. If NF could shave 5 oz off the ATACR and ditch the rotating ocular Id be thrilled. If the Mk5 came with an illuminated PR2 Id be content. I seem to be echoing the sentiment here that manufactures get so close but something is always wrong. Of course if any of those things existed Im sure Id still complain and even in 10 years we've come a long ways it terms of value and performance. As those seeking the pinnacle of performance in every way we are never likely to be content...

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

carbonbased said:
Obviously one does not use illumination while pdog shooting in typically super-bright clear sky conditions. Otherwise the buggers tend to stay in their holes. I assume you know that and want illum for something else.

I should be clear, the rifle is used to shoot pdogs, and needs to be reasonably capable of doing so. It is first and foremost a fighting rifle or defensive tool, then used for training, competition, and killing all sorts of varmints.

carbonbased said:
The magnification thing…so, I don’t have the scope in front of me, but typically I’ve noticed scopes show ~10mils from center when on 20x. You need more than 10mils for drop? At 500yds, which is past a reliable hit % for me with a 204/223, the 53gr Hornady Superperformance 223 round drops ~2.3mils.

Even if you shoot out to 800yds, that’s only a ~6.7mil drop. With 77gr FGMM, the drop is ~8.4mils.

So if you like to hold for drop and wind, you won’t have to touch the turrets, and certainly not for pdogs.

The LHT shows 6 usable mils at 22x which would get me to about 750 with my barrel, elevation, and load. Its probably usable for 90% of what I do but it wouldn't be the same philosophy as my "never touch the turrets" with my 10x pst.

carbonbased said:
Glass quality: it is a Razor, so the raw optical performance is pretty good. Roughly as good as the Razor G2 4.5-27, and quite a bit better than the PST II 5-25. I don’t look at test charts, but at little varmints, and I haven’t had any issues.

For me, the knock on the scope is the FOV, but you’re going to have to give up something. Otherwise you’d have already found that ideal scope.

The FOV, especially at low mag, is not ideal for me, the sub par turrets might not be a problem but it doesn't spark joy, and the ilm controls would be awfully annoying as I do a lot of low light shooting. The nearly 1lb saving over the Steiner though... man its appealing. If I could get eyes behind one and compare it to my S&B it would help but that's unlikely.

carbonbased · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
The LHT shows 6 usable mils at 22x which would get me to about 750 with my barrel, elevation, and load. Its probably usable for 90% of what I do but it wouldn't be the same philosophy as my "never touch the turrets" with my 10x pst.

Not sure where you get 6 mils?

My photos of my LHT 4.5-22, taken right now.

At ~20x. About 9 mils (look on the side), but for drop 8 mils are useful before getting cut off (see below pic for ref, I snapped this quick and didn’t notice I didn’t get the whole ret).

At 22x. About 8 mils, but for drop 7 mils are useful before getting cut off.

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

carbonbased said:
Also, as mentioned about compromises, you’re going to have to give up something here. Absolutely.

See below? I arbitrarily picked some of the things you want (or I want lol). No free lunch, man. Plug in your scope and add whatever attributes you want and do this exercise.

RAZOR LHT 4.5-22
- light weight
~~- good-ish FOV~~
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
~~- dial illumination control~~

Very similar to the spread sheet I have going. Lots of cons here.

carbonbased said:
NF 4-16 ATACR
- light weight
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

For me the ATACR is in the "more comfortable" price range. (mil discount) but its more about cost comparison then actual price. Don't forget the rotating ocular on the ATACR.

carbonbased said:
MARCH 4.5-28
~~- light weight~~ (light for class, but 30oz is not light)
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

I dont think the illumination on the March would bother me after watching a video.

carbonbased said:
NF 4-20 ATACR
~~- light weight~~
- good-ish FOV
~~- locking turrets~~
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

Just seems like a worse 4-16 from the reviews Ive read.

carbonbased said:
S&B 3-20 US
~~- light weight~~
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets (available)
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
~~- sub $2k cost~~
- dial illumination control

For the S&B its actually reticle options (and the 5k price atm) that kills it for me.

carbonbased said:
Btw, personally I think you’ll want 20x at a minimum for pdogs. It’s not like shooting steel where some are happy at 12-15x. But, perhaps you are an anomaly here and will be content at 15x.

I may be different as I do have 20/10 vision, I can see at 20 feet what someone with 20/20 would see at 10 feet. As my other response mentions, this isnt a dedicated pdog rifle, thats just one of the more challenging things I do with it.

carbonbased said:
Keep in mind scopes tend to suck more at max mag range. That’s why I think a 25x minimum for the top mag is helpful…it makes 20x nicer to use. (20x is where I tend to be a lot of the time)

Suck in what way though? Mirage and eyebox for sure. Brightness, color fidelity and contrast probably. But resolution no. What matters most depends on the day. I was though, initially planning on getting another 2-10, so 18x should feel real nice, would the march be great, yes, and it wont surprise me if I end up with one the more I learn about it, but not for this rifle at 3x the price. The main reason I decided I wanted to move up from a 2-10 was not pdog shooting, but spotting misses on steel. Generally I do fall into the camp of better glass not more magnification. My ACOG 4x is quite consistent at 800 yards and even my ability to spot the impacts, compared against the gen 1 6-24 PST I had Id actually take the ACOG, even at 800. Of course I also like as much mag as I can get, but size/weight/cost are of course factors too. I honestly dont wonder if the ZCO 2-10 would work for me, but thats very much so a wait and see.

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

carbonbased said:
Not sure where you get 6 mils?

My photos of my LHT 4.5-22, taken right now.

View attachment 8632301
At ~20x. About 9 mils (look on the side), but for drop 8 mils are useful before getting cut off (see below pic for ref, I snapped this quick and didn’t notice I didn’t get the whole ret).

View attachment 8632302
At 22x. About 8 mils, but for drop 7 mils are useful before getting cut off.

Looking at photos online, even that 7th mil is pushing it for usability.

carbonbased · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
Suck in what way though? Mirage and eyebox

Eyebox.

A helpful tip for future questions. State all of your scenarios up front. You kinda drip-drip-dripped out more and more needs as the thread went on. now we have potential clip-on use, self-defense is #1, etc.

As a result, people may feel like they’re wasted a bunch of time trying to help a guy whose needs seem to grow ever-larger. I’m not mad, just bummed.

Good luck, man.

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

carbonbased said:
Eyebox.

A helpful tip for future questions. State all of your scenarios up front. You kinda drip-drip-dripped out more and more needs as the thread went on. now we have potential clip-on use, self-defense is #1, etc.

As a result, people may feel like they’re wasted a bunch of time trying to help a guy whose needs seem to grow ever-larger. I’m not mad, just bummed.

Good luck, man.

My apologies, my typing goes far slower then my brain and I easily miss thoughts. Though I thought I captured it when I said "I have a 20 inch 5.56 gas gun that was my go to rifle for a decade. My truck gun, training rifle, 3 gun rifle, 800 yards on steel, coyote rifle, spotlighting gun and prairie dog gun."

carbonbased · Mar 4, 2025

Ok, just noticed something strange.

We have a @Wy Devil pup and a @WyoChance on this page, and they are apparently the same guy.

Wy Devil pup has 1 question in his 14yr history, total, and it’s on this page. After Wy Devil pup asks his q, he then seamlessly switches to Feb 2025 account WyoChance.

Initial Q by @Wy Devil pup:

See, @Wy Devil pup has been a member since 2011, a year longer than @Glassaholic himself!

Follow ups were all by @WyoChance (acct, opened on the same day @Wy Devil pup asked his question). No mention as WTF is going on, why he said he started his account due to @Glassaholic but had an acct since 2011, etc.

Sample followup:

No one notices as both accounts start with “Wy”.

***

Goddamnit I have been suckered into wasting my time with yet another example of what I’ve prev coined as Autistic Forum Behavior, the tenets of which are listed below:

carbonbased said:
The hallmark of what I’m calling autism on this forum has always been a combo of:

OP has what seems to be a straightforward problem

But OP actually has a masked anal question

Markedly and weirdly friendly replies by OP to caustic comments

OP seems to love debate more than actually figuring out solution to his problem (or in discovering if the problem matters IRL)

OP’s intense desire to hear their opinion coming out of someone else’s mouth

More friendly OP replies that disregard other’s evidence or expert’s opinions that contradict OP’s original belief

OP seems to lack a sense of humor, banter, etc. He has a machine-like AI coldness about him.

OP never (really) changes their opinion, or does so only after pages and pages of exhaustive debate

OP often flies off onto tangential discussions (also anal)

OP seems confused by hostility

OP must have last word

#AFBisRealBros

I saved this here HTML page for reference lol jesus fucking christ

Looney bin!

Tagging dudes who witnessed the coining of the term Autistic Forum Behavior:
@LeftyJason @308pirate @oldrifleman
@Makinchips208 @Mike Casselton @ballisticdaddy @Emerson0311 @wpeach1912

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

carbonbased said:
Ok, just noticed something strange.

We have a @Wy Devil pup and a @WyoChance on this page, and they are apparently the same guy.

Wy Devil pup has 1 question in his 14yr history, total, and it’s on this page. After Wy Devil pup asks his q, he then seamlessly switches to Feb 2025 account WyoChance.

Initial Q by @Wy Devil pup:
View attachment 8632530

See, @Wy Devil pup has been a member since 2011, a year longer than @Glassaholic himself!
View attachment 8632535

Follow ups were all by @WyoChance (acct, opened on the same day @Wy Devil pup asked his question). No mention as WTF is going on, why he said he started his account due to @Glassaholic but had an acct since 2011,etc.
View attachment 8632553

Sample followup:
View attachment 8632554
No one notices as both accounts start with “Wy”.

***

Goddamnit I have been suckered into wasting my time with yet another example of what I’ve prev coined as Autistic Forum Behavior, the tenets of which are listed below:

I saved this here HTML page for reference lol jesus fucking christ

View attachment 8632567
Looney bin!

Tagging dudes who witnessed the coining of Autistic Forum Behavior:
@LeftyJason @308pirate @oldrifleman
@Makinchips208 @Mike Casselton @ballisticdaddy @Emerson0311 @wpeach1912

Made an account many many moons ago, forgot it existed, couldn’t get logged in, made new account, then got logged in to the old and ended up posting on the og account which just needs deleted… not sure who’s more autistic though

carbonbased · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
Made an account many many moons ago, forgot it existed, couldn’t get logged in, made new account, then got logged in to the old and ended up posting on the og account which just needs deleted… not sure who’s more autistic though

Sure pal

oldrifleman · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
Made an account many many moons ago, forgot it existed, couldn’t get logged in, made new account, then got logged in to the old and ended up posting on the og account which just needs deleted… not sure who’s more autistic though

Really shouldn’t post selfies on line!

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

carbonbased said:
Sure pal

sorry for wasting your time. Though I’ll say your post regarding the LHT was helpful. I am certainly hyper-fixated on this topic, and have been chasing my tail. I’ve gone from LHT vs Steiner to Steiner vs ATACR to ATACR vs March and around and around it goes. I’ll say I’ve certainly changed my mind and opinions as well as my considerations.

I never even thought about FOV until reading through the MPVO thread and realized how I inherently gravitate optics with good FOV and have sold ones in that past that don’t do so hot.

The high mag Alpah review got me consider all sorts of other options.

Maybe the LHT is the best choice for me
Maybe I can shave unnecessary weight off the rifle and 6-12oz doesn’t matter much.
Maybe I needa get over the rotating ocular on the NF
I’ve also reevaluated not dialing in my head. That started because I had both higher mag gen 1 and 2 PST and didn’t track, so I just didn’t dial them.
Little concerned about the LHT being similar.

OP has what seems to be a straightforward problem, the scope I want doesn’t exist (maybe)
But OPs question was obviously anal
Markedly and weirdly friendly replies by OP to caustic comments
OP’s intense desire to hear the opinions of way smarter and more experienced people. Just tell me what to buy.
OP replies that wonder why everyone thinks this is mainly a prairie dog gun.
OP seems to a lack of humor, banter, etc. He has a machine-like AI coldness about him.
OP can’t seem to develop a stable opinion, more information brings more internal debate.
OP often flies off onto tangential discussions (also anal) (what’s the lightest 1.3” 34mm mount?)
OP is confused by the hostility
OP will keep the conversation going

Wanna sell the still in box LHT? Then I’ll buy @The Knuckle ’s Steiner, be unhappy with both and trade them for an ATACR only to get annoyed with the rotating ocular and go with @Glassaholic ’s tentative recommendation of the March?

WyoChance · Mar 4, 2025

oldrifleman said:
Really shouldn’t post selfies on line!

Then how will I win the thermal?

carbonbased · Mar 4, 2025

WyoChance said:
sorry for wasting your time. Though I’ll say your post regarding the LHT was helpful. I am certainly hyper-fixated on this topic, and have been chasing my tail. I’ve gone from LHT vs Steiner to Steiner vs ATACR to ATACR vs March and around and around it goes. I’ll say I’ve certainly changed my mind and opinions as well as my considerations.

I never even thought about FOV until reading through the MPVO thread and realized how I inherently gravitate optics with good FOV and have sold ones in that past that don’t do so hot.

The high mag Alpah review got me consider all sorts of other options.

Maybe the LHT is the best choice for me
Maybe I can shave unnecessary weight off the rifle and 6-12oz doesn’t matter much.
Maybe I needa get over the rotating ocular on the NF
I’ve also reevaluated not dialing in my head. That started because I had both higher mag gen 1 and 2 PST and didn’t track, so I just didn’t dial them.
Little concerned about the LHT being similar.

OP has what seems to be a straightforward problem, the scope I want doesn’t exist (maybe)

But OPs question was obviously anal

Markedly and weirdly friendly replies by OP to caustic comments

OP’s intense desire to hear the opinions of way smarter and more experienced people. Just tell me what to buy.

OP replies that wonder why everyone thinks this is mainly a prairie dog gun.

OP seems to a lack of humor, banter, etc. He has a machine-like AI coldness about him.

OP can’t seem to develop a stable opinion, more information brings more internal debate.

OP often flies off onto tangential discussions (also anal) (what’s the lightest 1.3” 34mm mount?)

OP is confused by the hostility

OP will keep the conversation going

Wanna sell the still in box LHT? Then I’ll buy @The Knuckle ’s Steiner, be unhappy with both and trade them for an ATACR only to get annoyed with the rotating ocular and go with @Glassaholic ’s tentative recommendation of the March?

Dude, another marker of a massively autistic discussion that I get caught up in is the exhaustion I feel after a bit. Like, heavy lids bro.

Btw autism, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. I’m not mocking you personally, but making fun of your behavior. Nobody chooses to be autistic.

I need…a…a…

edit: maybe posting dumb memes will wake me up!

terva · Mar 16, 2025

koshkin said:
Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44 has not been here very long, so we'll see. I like the configuration and it is going onto a pronghorn hunt with me shortly, so we'll see how it does. It might be staying too.

ILya

I have a Meopta R2 1.7-10x42 at the moment per your recommendation but I'm looking to switch to something with little more magnification. I like the R2 very much and my main concern with scopes like Delta 3.5-21 and Tract 2.5-15 is that I would be going down in overall quality just to get more magnification.
@koshkin should I just keep the R2 and save until I get something guaranteed to be better like the TT 3-15 or S&B Meta? Thanks.

koshkin · Mar 17, 2025

terva said:
I have a Meopta R2 1.7-10x42 at the moment per your recommendation but I'm looking to switch to something with little more magnification. I like the R2 very much and my main concern with scopes like Delta 3.5-21 and Tract 2.5-15 is that I would be going down in overall quality just to get more magnification.
@koshkin should I just keep the R2 and save until I get something guaranteed to be better like the TT 3-15 or S&B Meta? Thanks.

That's a pretty personal question. If the idea is to give yourself the means to extend the range, than any decent FFP scope will do that even if it is not as good optically as the Meopta R2 (Stryker is fairly close, with Tract being slightly behind).

If you are just looking to have a little more magnification, SFP Meta with covered turrets can be had right now for about $2k.

ILya

dgheriani · Mar 19, 2025

Hey OP, I've been going through a very similar decision-making process to yours. Also have a 20" .223 gasser that is my go to for everything (no cans here). Offset Acro takes care of close range and night. It currently has a PST G2 2-10 on it as I try and figure out what it will finally get. Was deciding between 3 scopes I had on hand, those being the Razor G3 1-10, PST G2 2-10 and Razor LHT 4.5-22. I've always thought of the 1-10 as pretty much the best optic for a GP rifle but being that I really don't need the 1x mag, the eye box at 10x isn't ideal, nor is the smallish FOV. I do really like the reticle and the light weight though. The PST G2 2-10 is better at 10x, not really in glass quality but the eye box is way more forgiving, the FOV is significantly larger and the larger objective seems to make things a bit brighter in bad light. I'm not a fan of the reticle although it is usable and I wish it were lighter (it's 26oz to the 1-10's 22oz) but the real killer is the non-locking turrets. I've had the windage spin (luckily only a few tenths) when pulling it outta the case it lives in in my truck. For some reason I struggled with the idea of using the 4.5-22 on a gas gun, it just seemed, I dunno, like overkill? I've used it extensively for hunting and NRL Hunter and general field shooting and quite like the scope, minus the well-known caveats (mushy turrets and push-button illum). I've slowly been coming around to putting it on this rifle though. I was out comparing the 2-10 to the 1-10 tonight (both on gas guns) shooting out to 625 with some targets that are quite shaded or partially obscured (and I dragged it out into fading light) and really came to the conclusion that although I can make either of the 10x scopes work, I really want more mag to help spot splash on less than ideal backstops. I'm going to pull the 1-10 and drop the 4.5-22 on that rifle so I can directly compare but I'm pretty confident that more mag is the answer and the LHT gets me that with good glass, great reticle and illum as well as the ability to dial, light weight (same as the 1-10) and at only 3/4" longer than the 2-10, still plenty of place for a thermal clip-on.

koshkin · Mar 19, 2025

dgheriani said:
Hey OP, I've been going through a very similar decision-making process to yours. Also have a 20" .223 gasser that is my go to for everything (no cans here). Offset Acro takes care of close range and night. It currently has a PST G2 2-10 on it as I try and figure out what it will finally get. Was deciding between 3 scopes I had on hand, those being the Razor G3 1-10, PST G2 2-10 and Razor LHT 4.5-22. I've always thought of the 1-10 as pretty much the best optic for a GP rifle but being that I really don't need the 1x mag, the eye box at 10x isn't ideal, nor is the smallish FOV. I do really like the reticle and the light weight though. The PST G2 2-10 is better at 10x, not really in glass quality but the eye box is way more forgiving, the FOV is significantly larger and the larger objective seems to make things a bit brighter in bad light. I'm not a fan of the reticle although it is usable and I wish it were lighter (it's 26oz to the 1-10's 22oz) but the real killer is the non-locking turrets. I've had the windage spin (luckily only a few tenths) when pulling it outta the case it lives in in my truck. For some reason I struggled with the idea of using the 4.5-22 on a gas gun, it just seemed, I dunno, like overkill? I've used it extensively for hunting and NRL Hunter and general field shooting and quite like the scope, minus the well-known caveats (mushy turrets and push-button illum). I've slowly been coming around to putting it on this rifle though. I was out comparing the 2-10 to the 1-10 tonight (both on gas guns) shooting out to 625 with some targets that are quite shaded or partially obscured (and I dragged it out into fading light) and really came to the conclusion that although I can make either of the 10x scopes work, I really want more mag to help spot splash on less than ideal backstops. I'm going to pull the 1-10 and drop the 4.5-22 on that rifle so I can directly compare but I'm pretty confident that more mag is the answer and the LHT gets me that with good glass, great reticle and illum as well as the ability to dial, light weight (same as the 1-10) and at only 3/4" longer than the 2-10, still plenty of place for a thermal clip-on.

Good choice. 4.5-22x50 is an excellent scope for a gas gun. I have to admit I seldom dial beyond 15x and usually shoot on 12x or so, but larger exit pupil makes it notable more comfortable. If you are going to be on high mag a lot, bumping up the objective diameter is often a good idea. Oh, and you should move south of the border and buy a suppressor.

ILya

dgheriani · Mar 19, 2025

koshkin said:
Good choice. 4.5-22x50 is an excellent scope for a gas gun. I have to admit I seldom dial beyond 15x and usually shoot on 12x or so, but larger exit pupil makes it notable more comfortable. If you are going to be on high mag a lot, bumping up the objective diameter is often a good idea. Oh, and you should move south of the border and buy a suppressor.

ILya

I'm of a similar mind, usually run my 4.5-22 between 12 and 15x, 22x only for zeroing. I'm so used to my Gen 3 6-36s (that I run at 15x typically) that the LHT's FOV at 12x feels "normal" to me. I dunno what my hangup about using it on a gas gun was but I got over it, haha.

I've been wanting to (and am still planning to) move south for a while now. Just getting all my ducks in a row. I didn't even realize you were at the Az NRLH until I saw the scores, woulda come and chatted. I was curious how you liked running your Impact 4k for the match. I ran one, strictly as an ancillary/back up figuring it could save me a couple points if I ended up finding a target (that I didn't find on binos) when on the gun and although that scenario didn't occur, it saved me a couple points on my 1st stage where I forgot to write my dope down before getting on the gun, haha.

beetroot · Mar 19, 2025

dgheriani said:
Hey OP, I've been going through a very similar decision-making process to yours. Also have a 20" .223 gasser that is my go to for everything (no cans here). Offset Acro takes care of close range and night. It currently has a PST G2 2-10 on it as I try and figure out what it will finally get. Was deciding between 3 scopes I had on hand, those being the Razor G3 1-10, PST G2 2-10 and Razor LHT 4.5-22. I've always thought of the 1-10 as pretty much the best optic for a GP rifle but being that I really don't need the 1x mag, the eye box at 10x isn't ideal, nor is the smallish FOV. I do really like the reticle and the light weight though. The PST G2 2-10 is better at 10x, not really in glass quality but the eye box is way more forgiving, the FOV is significantly larger and the larger objective seems to make things a bit brighter in bad light. I'm not a fan of the reticle although it is usable and I wish it were lighter (it's 26oz to the 1-10's 22oz) but the real killer is the non-locking turrets. I've had the windage spin (luckily only a few tenths) when pulling it outta the case it lives in in my truck. For some reason I struggled with the idea of using the 4.5-22 on a gas gun, it just seemed, I dunno, like overkill? I've used it extensively for hunting and NRL Hunter and general field shooting and quite like the scope, minus the well-known caveats (mushy turrets and push-button illum). I've slowly been coming around to putting it on this rifle though. I was out comparing the 2-10 to the 1-10 tonight (both on gas guns) shooting out to 625 with some targets that are quite shaded or partially obscured (and I dragged it out into fading light) and really came to the conclusion that although I can make either of the 10x scopes work, I really want more mag to help spot splash on less than ideal backstops. I'm going to pull the 1-10 and drop the 4.5-22 on that rifle so I can directly compare but I'm pretty confident that more mag is the answer and the LHT gets me that with good glass, great reticle and illum as well as the ability to dial, light weight (same as the 1-10) and at only 3/4" longer than the 2-10, still plenty of place for a thermal clip-on.

Mildly off topic but I agree that the exposed windage is the biggest let down of the PST Gen2.

The 2-10 reticle is a bit crap and it's kinds heavy, but the exposed wind is the main reason Ill never get one.
The 3-15 PST Gen2 has been one of my favorite scopes for a long time but having had the windage shift in a few matches has resulted in it sitting on the bench more often than it's on a rifle these days.

I had big hopes for the Viper HD line but the lack of FFP models in the 3-15 and 2-10 was a real let down.
It would've killed to threads with one stone (this one and the MVPO one) unfortunately it wasn't to be.

supercorndogs · Mar 19, 2025

carbonbased said:
Also, as mentioned about compromises, you’re going to have to give up something here. Absolutely.

See below? I arbitrarily picked some of the things you want (or I want lol). No free lunch, man. Plug in your scope and add whatever attributes you want and do this exercise.

RAZOR LHT 4.5-22
- light weight
~~- good-ish FOV~~
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
~~- dial illumination control~~

NF 4-16 ATACR
- light weight
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

MARCH 4.5-28
~~- light weight~~ (light for class, but 30oz is not light)
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

NF 4-20 ATACR
~~- light weight~~
- good-ish FOV
~~- locking turrets~~
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
- sub $2k cost
- dial illumination control

S&B 3-20 US
~~- light weight~~
- good-ish FOV
- locking turrets (available)
- not-mushy turrets
- decent eyebox
- 20x mag
~~- sub $2k cost~~
- dial illumination control

Btw, personally I think you’ll want 20x at a minimum for pdogs. It’s not like shooting steel where some are happy at 12-15x. But, perhaps you are an anomaly here and will be content at 15x.

Keep in mind scopes tend to suck more at max mag range. That’s why I think a 25x minimum for the top mag is helpful…it makes 20x nicer to use. (20x is where I tend to be a lot of the time)

Here a lot ofnthe year the image gets washed out by mirage close to the ground shooting pdogs. I tend to find myself in the 10-15 range a lot and 5-7 range if it's really bad.

Glassaholic · Mar 19, 2025

beetroot said:
It would've killed to threads with one stone (this one and the MVPO one) unfortunately it wasn't to be.

One of the biggest differentiators between an MPVO and a crossover scope is that the MPVO should be (ought to be) a natural progression from the LPVO, meaning it is the next step up from LPVO in magnification, size and weight without being overly so. In other words, an MPVO would be in the 2-10/2-12 or at most 2.5-10 with a 2.5-15 being more of a hybrid MPVO/Crossover (same for NF's 2.5-20). But size and weight play more a criteria for the MPVO which is something few manufacturers have paid much attention to (with Steiner's H6Xi probably coming the closest, but too bad they blew it on the reticle). But most important for the MPVO and the Crossover class scope is getting the reticle right, it absolutely has to be usable at bottom magnification and with most manufacturers just throwing in their LR reticles it just doesn't cut it, even if they are using a bright illumination module (helps but not ideal). I still think the March 1.5-15x42 FFP with DFP reticle is one of the best designs on the market to date, even with its compromises, the new ZCO 2-10x30 with HTR reticle is likely another outstanding option but with a fairly hefty weight penalty, the new Leupold CMR-Mil reticle for their 2-10x30 is close, but as you coined the term Beetroot... they "Leupolded it". Sure would be nice to see a "big" manufacturer take notice of this niche market...

koshkin · Mar 19, 2025

dgheriani said:
I'm of a similar mind, usually run my 4.5-22 between 12 and 15x, 22x only for zeroing. I'm so used to my Gen 3 6-36s (that I run at 15x typically) that the LHT's FOV at 12x feels "normal" to me. I dunno what my hangup about using it on a gas gun was but I got over it, haha.

I've been wanting to (and am still planning to) move south for a while now. Just getting all my ducks in a row. I didn't even realize you were at the Az NRLH until I saw the scores, woulda come and chatted. I was curious how you liked running your Impact 4k for the match. I ran one, strictly as an ancillary/back up figuring it could save me a couple points if I ended up finding a target (that I didn't find on binos) when on the gun and although that scenario didn't occur, it saved me a couple points on my 1st stage where I forgot to write my dope down before getting on the gun, haha.

Maarten told me you were there, but I never ran into you. Unfortunately, I had to run off a bit earlier on Sunday, so I did not stay for the awards. That was my first match and shooting as an amateur, I decided to just do what the pro I was paired with was doing.

I ended up just doing what he was doing, so I did not use the Impact at all. There were a couple of stages where I could have used it, but I completely blanked on that.

I am comfortably making weight with the Impact, so might as well keep it on there.

ILya

dgheriani · Mar 19, 2025

beetroot said:
Mildly off topic but I agree that the exposed windage is the biggest let down of the PST Gen2.

The 2-10 reticle is a bit crap and it's kinds heavy, but the exposed wind is the main reason Ill never get one.
The 3-15 PST Gen2 has been one of my favorite scopes for a long time but having had the windage shift in a few matches has resulted in it sitting on the bench more often than it's on a rifle these days.

I had big hopes for the Viper HD line but the lack of FFP models in the 3-15 and 2-10 was a real let down.
It would've killed to threads with one stone (this one and the MVPO one) unfortunately it wasn't to be.

Totally agree. I can live with the less than ideal reticle and the weight but the exposed windage is a real killer. I've actually been pestering Vortex (up here in Canada) for a couple years to update that scope, even if it's just to go to capped windage (and preferably swap in the reticle from the 3-15). It really strikes me as a scope without a home, I really don't see any use or demand for a "bench/range target" scope (which is the use case I see for an optic with exposed turrets) in 2-10, I don't imagine a heavy-ish ffp 2-10 with exposed turrets would appeal to any hunters and we've been over it's downsides as an MPVO/precision AR optic. I'm really hoping that at some point it gets updated and/or that Vortex plugs the gap in the Razor lineup that exists between the 1-10 and 6-36.

beetroot · Mar 20, 2025

Glassaholic said:
One of the biggest differentiators between an MPVO and a crossover scope is that the MPVO should be (ought to be) a natural progression from the LPVO, meaning it is the next step up from LPVO in magnification, size and weight without being overly so. In other words, an MPVO would be in the 2-10/2-12 or at most 2.5-10 with a 2.5-15 being more of a hybrid MPVO/Crossover (same for NF's 2.5-20). But size and weight play more a criteria for the MPVO which is something few manufacturers have paid much attention to (with Steiner's H6Xi probably coming the closest, but too bad they blew it on the reticle). But most important for the MPVO and the Crossover class scope is getting the reticle right, it absolutely has to be usable at bottom magnification and with most manufacturers just throwing in their LR reticles it just doesn't cut it, even if they are using a bright illumination module (helps but not ideal). I still think the March 1.5-15x42 FFP with DFP reticle is one of the best designs on the market to date, even with its compromises, the new ZCO 2-10x30 with HTR reticle is likely another outstanding option but with a fairly hefty weight penalty, the new Leupold CMR-Mil reticle for their 2-10x30 is close, but as you coined the term Beetroot... they "Leupolded it". Sure would be nice to see a "big" manufacturer take notice of this niche market...

Not sure if I made it clear in my post or not but I was meant to say the Viper HD 3-15x44 would make a great crossover scope and the 2-10x42 an MPVO. Assuming a Mil, FFP version of each it wouldn’t take much to make these some of the better options on the market.

The VMR-4 as is would be good enough in the 3-15x44, .05mil thicker like the EBR-2c/2d would be good though.
The 2-10x42 would be great if it had the EBR-9 but even the EBR-1 from the PST G1 2.5-10x32 would be good enough.
Better reticles for each could easily be designed but Vortex already has ones that would work if they wanted to!

Neither scope would be the best, most perfect crossover or MPVO but they’d be some of the better options on the market.
With capped wind, improved glass and less weight (22.5oz and 20oz respectively) they’d be very good options, especially for the money.

carbonbased · Mar 20, 2025

supercorndogs said:
Here a lot ofnthe year the image gets washed out by mirage close to the ground shooting pdogs. I tend to find myself in the 10-15 range a lot and 5-7 range if it's really bad.

5-7x?

I’m a pdog shooter myself, but I shoot from a rotating bench or a tripod. Are you shooting prone? I shoot out to 500yds max with a 204 mainly.

Anyway, yeah, mirage is a bitch. But I can stay around 18-20x regardless with my Razor 4.5-27 G2. Above that, during bad mirage it’s a problem. I’m shooting in 80-95°F in dry to humid North Dakota conditions.

Rifle Scopes Which Crossover Scope would you choose?

Which crossover scopes would you choose?

3-15x50

3-20x50

4-20x50

4.5-22x50

3-18x56

3.5-18x50

4-16x42/50

2.5-20x50

3-24x52

Other (explain what/why)

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