Why do people still mount scopes the way they do?

EotS · Jul 16, 2021

As it would pertain to 1pc mounts specifically.

Just mounting it in the ring setup, off of the gun, then put the entire assembly on the pic rail?

Seems like you're fighting 2 battles trying to level the gun and the scope.

Why isn't it common practice to put the ring/mount setup on a known, flat surface then just install and level the scope in the mount/ring setup? Short of some major mfg defects, the pic rail on the gun will be absurdly flat.

EotS · Jul 16, 2021

Frederick_77 said:
Might be easier to get the proper eye relief. That's the only reason I can think of off the cuff.

Yeah, I assumed eye relief established during a prior loose fitting, then removed for leveling, and securement.

Baron23 · Jul 16, 2021

EotS said:
As opposed to mounting it in the ring setup, off of the gun, then put the entire assembly on the pic rail?

Seems like you're fighting 2 battles trying to level the gun and the scope.

Why isn't it common practice to put the ring/mount setup on a known, flat surface then just install and level the scope in the mount/ring setup? Short of some major mfg defects, the pic rail on the gun will be absurdly flat.

Perhaps because the majority of rifle owners do this task infrequently and therefore doesn’t justify the cost of the kind of fixture needed to do it right.

theLBC · Jul 16, 2021

perhaps putting on the pic rail assures the spacing is correct as well.
i would be pissed if i mounted and leveled a scope and then it would not go on the rail.

EotS · Jul 16, 2021

theLBC said:
perhaps putting on the pic rail assures the spacing is correct. i would be pissed if i mounted a scope and them it would not go on the rail.

Fair point. In my mind I was thinking 1pc mounts. I'll edit.

EotS · Jul 16, 2021

Baron23 said:
Perhaps because the majority of rifle owners do this task infrequently and therefore doesn’t justify the cost of the kind of fixture needed to do it right.

What fixture are you refering to?

lash · Jul 16, 2021

If you don’t do this with the rings properly setup in a picatinny rail. You could get ring movement after the setup due to recoil.

ETA: slow posting.

Baron23 · Jul 16, 2021

EotS said:
What fixture are you refering to?

Couple of examples

Dead Level

P/N 200-50

www.badgerordnance.com

Final Scope Level

NOTE: The Final Scope Level Assembly may have light machining marks from the machining process. There also may be slight imperfections in the hardcoat anodizing. This is normal and does not effect the function of the Final Scope Level.

www.shortactioncustoms.com

Rob01 · Jul 16, 2021

Why would I waste $165-200 when I can mount the scope easy enough in my kitchen with a small level? LOL I already spend enough on a "fixture" I can shoot.

EotS · Jul 16, 2021

Baron23 said:
Couple of examples

Dead Level

P/N 200-50

www.badgerordnance.com

Final Scope Level

NOTE: The Final Scope Level Assembly may have light machining marks from the machining process. There also may be slight imperfections in the hardcoat anodizing. This is normal and does not effect the function of the Final Scope Level.

www.shortactioncustoms.com

What would the real world advantage of that be over a smooth, known flat surface?
Assuming your mount has a flat bottom.

Downtown · Jul 16, 2021

You would know the ring spacing is correct for a standard rail. Though that's not relevant for a one piece mount.

tadawson · Jul 16, 2021

Hmmm . . . seems like a gun vice (or other good rest) with the gun in it and a level on the pic rail gets you to exactly the same place as the first overpriced device, and you will know it fits correctly as well . . . . You can then level to a plumb nob (or whatever) or use something like a Wheeler scope level to true it to the rail.

???

beetroot · Jul 16, 2021

Bigger question is why do people make scope mounting so difficult.

-Hang a plumb bob
-Get behind the rifle into your natural position and align the scope/reticle with the plumb bob
- Reset your position behind the rifle and make sure your natural position and cross hair still aligns with plumb bob
-Done

Should take no more that 2 minutes and a piece of string with a weight on one end.

You should be spending more time getting the forward/aft position correct so you maintain your sight picture in different shooting positions.

Ravenworks · Jul 16, 2021

If you already have picatiny rails.

Optic Leveler Combo

The Optic Leveler is an inexpensive, easy-to-use tool for leveling scopes mounted in rings or one-piece mounts.

arisakadefense.com

308pirate · Jul 16, 2021

Rob01 said:
Why would I waste $165-200 when I can mount the scope easy enough in my kitchen with a small level? LOL I already spend enough on a "fixture" I can shoot.

Set eye relief in position first, mark the position of both rings on the rifle and of the scope in the rings. Loosely clamp rifle in vise and level, then tighten. Bolt on rings and scope. Done.

Rob01 · Jul 16, 2021

308pirate said:
Set eye relief in position first, mark the position of both rings on the rifle and of the scope in the rings. Loosely clamp rifle in vise and level, then tighten. Bolt on rings and scope. Done.

You don’t got to tell me. I know how to mount a scope without the BS.

308pirate · Jul 16, 2021

Rob01 said:
You don’t got to tell me. I know how to mount a scope without the BS.

Just agreeing with you man

I'm amazed at all the fuckery I read about

Baron23 · Jul 16, 2021

EotS said:
What would the real world advantage of that be over a smooth, known flat surface?
Assuming your mount has a flat bottom.

So, exactly what flat, smooth, completely level surface that can secure a scope and rings sufficient to hold it steady while you level and tighten the rings are you envisioning.

AHorn · Jul 16, 2021

90% of the world doesn't care about everything being perfect. They are shooting animals at 100yds or less. I would think all of the people like some here that want precision know how, have there own methods to mount/level a scope. I have killed a metric fuck ton of things with a 4x bushnell that was mounted on a Winchester 30-30 that my dad mounted while probably holding the whole mess in his lap, I was too young to remember just speculating how he did it. You get the point.

sam4886 · Jul 17, 2021

Are you saying I should put my 1 piece mount on a flat table and tighten down the ring caps making sure the reticle stays level? Talk about a wobbly fuckin mess.

Its a hell of a lot easier to do that when the mount is already torqued down on the rail on my rifle.

My rifles are always held in a vise when I'm fucking with them though.

EotS · Jul 17, 2021

Baron23 said:
So, exactly what flat, smooth, completely level surface that can secure a scope and rings sufficient to hold it steady while you level and tighten the rings are you envisioning.

Why would you need to secure it to the surface?

Bottom of 1pc mount is flat, set it on said surface. Install and level scope in the mount. Tighten ring screws. Done.

Baron23 · Jul 17, 2021

EotS said:
Why would you need to secure it to the surface?

Bottom of 1pc mount is flat, set it on said surface. Install and level scope in the mount. Tighten ring screws. Done.

knock yourself out....you got it.

EotS · Jul 17, 2021

sam4886 said:
Are you saying I should put my 1 piece mount on a flat table and tighten down the ring caps making sure the reticle stays level? Talk about a wobbly fuckin mess.

Its a hell of a lot easier to do that when the mount is already torqued down on the rail on my rifle.

My rifles are always held in a vise when I'm fucking with them though.

Why would it wobble?

spife7980 · Jul 17, 2021

EotS said:
Why would you need to secure it to the surface?

Bottom of 1pc mount is flat,

Not always brother. Lots of times the fastener side hangs down further than the other.

EotS · Jul 17, 2021

spife7980 said:
Not always brother. Lots of times the fastener side hangs down further than the other.

Well, obviously we're working under the assumption that it will be.

theLBC · Jul 17, 2021

bottom line is, it isn't that hard to keep the rifle level while mounting, and as noted, some shooters don't even hold the rifle perfectly level.

smoothy8500 · Jul 17, 2021

“Level the rifle”....how many times do we hear that, when it has no bearing whatsoever. The reticle when firing is the only thing that needs to be level/plumb.

308pirate · Jul 17, 2021

EotS said:
As it would pertain to 1pc mounts specifically.

Just mounting it in the ring setup, off of the gun, then put the entire assembly on the pic rail?

Seems like you're fighting 2 battles trying to level the gun and the scope.

Why isn't it common practice to put the ring/mount setup on a known, flat surface then just install and level the scope in the mount/ring setup? Short of some major mfg defects, the pic rail on the gun will be absurdly flat.

A) Why do you care how anyone does anything on rifles that don't belong to you?

B) Why would anyone NOT put the mounts/rings on the rifle, level it in a vise, then mount and level the scope to it? That way ALL the manufacturing variations in the receiver, base, and rings get nulled out.

C) Why do you think the pic rail on a rifle is absurdly flat? What's absurdly flat? I bet you didn't know that the top of a pic rail (datum C) can deviate from perfect flatness by up to .005" in any direction.

WeiserBucks · Jul 17, 2021

EotS said:
Why would it wobble?

Have you ever actually seen or touched a table?

22lfb · Jul 17, 2021

What's wrong with mounting a scope this way? Put a level on the rail, put a level on the scope or hang a plum bob - job done.

Or buy a Spuhr mount if you don't want to use a level...

Baron23 · Jul 17, 2021

22lfb said:
What's wrong with mounting a scope this way? Put a level on the rail, put a level on the scope or hang a plum bob - job done.

Or buy a Spuhr mount if you don't want to use a level...

Or buy an Ariska leveling tool if you don’t want to pay Spuhr prices. Right?

koshkin · Jul 17, 2021

I usually mount the scope right on the rifle with the said rifle sitting on top of a tripod in a nice steady arca clamp or shooting saddle of some sort. That way, I can easily level everything out, set eyerelief, etc.

ILya

EotS · Jul 17, 2021

308pirate said:
A) Why do you care how anyone does anything on rifles that don't belong to you?

B) Why would anyone NOT put the mounts/rings on the rifle, level it in a vise, then mount and level the scope to it? That way ALL the manufacturing variations in the receiver, base, and rings get nulled out.

C) Why do you think the pic rail on a rifle is absurdly flat? What's absurdly flat? I bet you didn't know that the top of a pic rail (datum C) can deviate from perfect flatness by up to .005" in any direction.

I'd speculate that any deviations in the flatness of a rail, mount or whatever is well under what you could detect with a bubble level.

EotS · Jul 17, 2021

WeiserBucks said:
Have you ever actually seen or touched a table?

Well, let's assume one would use something a tad more solid than a fucking card table.
Cripes.

spife7980 · Jul 17, 2021

Let’s assume you’re competent enough to be able to mount it on the rifle where it belongs?

lash · Jul 17, 2021

Yeah. I never thought that it needed to be very complicated. Though I have been in a LGS when customers have come in to have the Smith mount their optic for them. So I get the trepidation. It’s usually caused by lack of regular experience and understandable.

308pirate · Jul 17, 2021

EotS said:
I'd speculate that any deviations in the flatness of a rail, mount or whatever is well under what you could detect with a bubble level.

Maybe some of us have more sensitive angle instruments than a carpenter's level

I'm still wondering why is this even a question

Skunk · Jul 17, 2021

Why do people mount scopes the way they do? Because if you turn the sumbitch around and mount it the other way your targets look smaller! Everyone knows that....

SmartDonkey · Jul 17, 2021

Some stocks just don't fit like you would like them to- and the gun is not in the best position when perfectly level. So you need to get the gun setup how it is going to be positioned in your shoulder and then level the scope at that point. And if you do this it will probably not be perfectly level in the mount-

beetroot · Jul 18, 2021

EotS said:
Well, let's assume one would use something a tad more solid than a fucking card table.
Cripes.

What if the table isn't perfectly level?

Can we start a new thread on levelling a table?
Do we need to include the use of prussian blue?

BuildingConceptsllc · Jul 18, 2021

koshkin said:
I usually mount the scope right on the rifle with the said rifle sitting on top of a tripod in a nice steady arca clamp or shooting saddle of some sort. That way, I can easily level everything out, set eyerelief, etc.

ILya

Yup, that's how I do it too.

EotS · Jul 18, 2021

308pirate said:
Maybe some of us have more sensitive angle instruments than a carpenter's level

I'm still wondering why is this even a question

Did you seriously just suggest you had a BUBBLE level accurate enough to detect manufacturing variations in a pic rail?
I'm sorry, but if indeed there were some discrepancies, a bubble level ain't finding them unless the piece in question has been beaten with a sledge hammer.

ken226 · Jul 18, 2021

I have a couple of these:

58-803-8 SPI Master Precision Level: 10" - Call 800-469-0132 or Buy Online

Buy the SPI 10" Master Precision Level # 58-803-8 Online. Fast Nationwide Shipping or Call 800-469-0132. We Carry A Large Variety Including SPI Levels.

www.higherprecision.com

Each graduation of the bubble scale indicates .0005" per 10", or 10 arc seconds. About .003°.
On a 6" long pic rail each graduation would indicate a change of .0003".

But, I don't think I could balance it on a pic rail.

So yea, levels that accurate certainly exist. The glass spirit vial contains a very low viscosity fluid, and is curved like an inverted rainbow, to get such a high level of sensitivity. But they aren't practical$$ for levelling a scope. Hell, levelling a lathe with one is pretty tough.

For scopes, I just stack business cards between the scope and base. It gets the scope plenty level enough. Snug up the rings, pull out a card, snug a little more, then pull out the cards and torque the screws.

Rob01 · Jul 18, 2021

EotS said:
Did you seriously just suggest you had a BUBBLE level accurate enough to detect manufacturing variations in a pic rail?
I'm sorry, but if indeed there were some discrepancies, a bubble level ain't finding them unless the piece in question has been beaten with a sledge hammer.

Actually he said some have more accurate instruments than a bubble level meaning something other than a bubble level.

That said any of those super small differences won’t mean anything. Level the rifle rail, mount scope level to it and you are fine. Here is my super calibrated leveling device I have used for years to mount many scopes on many rifles.

powdahound76 · Jul 18, 2021

Rob01 said:
Actually he said some have more accurate instruments than a bubble level meaning something other than a bubble level.

That said any of those super small differences won’t mean anything. Level the rifle rail, mount scope level to it and you are fine. Here is my super calibrated leveling device I have used for years to mount many scopes on many rifles.

View attachment 7670205

yeah, but do you really even shoot bro???

I will say, that the OP probably needs to buy one of the SPUHR mounts in the fundraiser FS ad, they have a do-dad for leveling.
And a level built into the mount!!!

powdahound76 · Jul 18, 2021

@EotS

Scroll down a bit. We have mounts in 30, 34, and 36 mm for any Pic rail. ALso specialty mounts in the original post.
Leveling is a brain dead activity with these!

Accessories - Bo Galloway Fundraiser (SPUHR Rem 700 LA pic rail, AI Mounts, GDI Precision Mounts)

Hi All!!! First off, again please only items posted by me in this thread. Please use the other main fundraiser thread in the PX for anything else. A HUGE thank you to Randy and Diann Pennington, owners of Mile High Shooting for their amazing and kind donation of so much amazing gear. Sit down...

www.snipershide.com

Schütze · Jul 18, 2021

308pirate said:
Maybe some of us have more sensitive angle instruments than a carpenter's level

I'm still wondering why is this even a question

Yes of course, a string and a weight. Should be available in every household.

carbonbased · Jul 20, 2021

I wonder why we Americans don’t use the Zeiss rail mount? https://optics-info.com/zeiss-zm-vm-rifle-scope-mounting-rail/

Maybe there’s some disadvantages. I know nothing about them.

Maybe Frank needs to promote them just to stop the scope leveling threads lololol

Tokay444 · Jul 20, 2021

EotS said:
Did you seriously just suggest you had a BUBBLE level accurate enough to detect manufacturing variations in a pic rail?
I'm sorry, but if indeed there were some discrepancies, a bubble level ain't finding them unless the piece in question has been beaten with a sledge hammer.

I’m afraid the more you speak, the less you know.

Sprayed99 · Jul 20, 2021

Use the rifle it is going on. If several I'm assuming that you ordered or adjusted your rifles to have the same LOP. I shoot the same actions across the board so that variable is removed. You don't even need a level if your are using a quality action or base and a quality mount. Feeler gauges are your friend. Use the gauges to true the bottom of the turret housing to the rail or mount. Doesn't get much easier.

All the higher end scope manufacturers true the reticle off of the bottom of the housing.

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