Why do people still mount scopes the way they do?

[StLPro2A]

As it would pertain to 1pc mounts specifically.



Just mounting it in the ring setup, off of the gun, then put the entire assembly on the pic rail?

Seems like you're fighting 2 battles trying to level the gun and the scope.

Why isn't it common practice to put the ring/mount setup on a known, flat surface then just install and level the scope in the mount/ring setup? Short of some major mfg defects, the pic rail on the gun will be absurdly flat.

Badger Ordnance sells a Dead Level device for mounting scopes in rings off the rifle. I use all the time with great success.

DEAD LEVEL​

200-50

The Dead Level levels your reticle in relation to the Earth taking out any margin of error of the reticle not being perfectly level with the scope body. Simply attach your scope to the Dead Level, level the device with the precision thumbscrews to center up the bulls-eye level, then just level the reticle with a predetermined level line or plumb bob. Aluminum Mil. Spec. Anodized Hard Coat Type III, crimson and black. Instructions included.

FOR USE WITH MIL STD 1913 COMPLIANT RINGS AND MOUNTS

 

[tag2601]

If you already have picatiny rails.

View attachment 7669597

Optic Leveler Combo

The Optic Leveler is an inexpensive, easy-to-use tool for leveling scopes mounted in rings or one-piece mounts.

arisakadefense.com

looks like an awesome product. once in awhile you see a firearms product that cuts to the chase. no BS

 

[Farsight]

Why not start with a nice flat surface?

 

[beetroot]

looks like an awesome product. once in awhile you see a firearms product that cuts to the chase. no BS

And only $165, bloody bargain when you consider how difficult every other scope levelling method is.

 

[308pirate]

I wonder why we Americans don’t use the Zeiss rail mount? https://optics-info.com/zeiss-zm-vm-rifle-scope-mounting-rail/

Maybe there’s some disadvantages. I know nothing about them.

Maybe Frank needs to promote them just to stop the scope leveling threads lololol

NIH

 

[lash]

Well gorsh, let’s see now. Earlier in the week I took my NIB LRHS2 down to the range where a couple good friends shoot, so they and I could compare it with the LRHSi that was already mounted on my heavy Valkyrie AR.

When it was time to swap optics, I placed the rifle on a bench, held up by a bag and bipod. Removed the scope ring caps, took out the old scope, put the new scope in, replaced the ring caps and got prone to adjust eye position and reticle level according to being behind the rifle. With all of that highly technical stuff out of the way, I tightened the ring screws and proceeded to set zero.

I’m pretty sure I could have done it correctly if I had watched half a dozen YouTube how to videos and bought some high end fixtures, but I’m just funny like that.

 

[Schütze]

You must not have read this thread very well then

 

[EternalNoob]

delete

 

[EternalNoob]

“Level the rifle”....how many times do we hear that, when it has no bearing whatsoever. The reticle when firing is the only thing that needs to be level/plumb.

I'm confused (not surprising ) If you don't level the rifle, how do you know when the bore and the vertical crosshair are in the same vertical plane?

 

[EternalNoob]

Yes of course, a string and a weight. Should be available in every household.

In my limited experience, using a string doesn't work with high magnification scopes up in small rooms?

 

[smoothy8500]

how do you know when the bore and the vertical crosshair are in the same vertical plane?

They don't need to be in a vertical plane. Time and time again it's been proven to have a negligible effect even at distances such as 1K.

 

[carbonbased]

In my limited experience, using a string doesn't work with high magnification scopes up in small rooms?

I’ve done mine in a 25ft space with 5-25x zooms. Have to use min mag or so and a bright yellow string, which may be a bit out of focus. I started not to care as much and now use the hopefully plumbish edge of my neighbors house lol.

About the vertical plane thing: you could use the EXD tool from Brownells. See it below. I have one, it works, but the assumption one makes is the bore is concentric with the outer surface of the barrel, which I hear is not a sure thing. Plus it probably doesn’t matter, results-wise for most of us.

After reading about this mind-numbing topic a bit and taking in some of Frank’s online training, I finally stopped worrying much and just slap the scope on my gun, slap the gun on my tripod, get the gun eyeball leveled, then level the reticle with said neighbor’s garage corner and call it good. Lots of slapping.

I’m way happier as a result, and it hasn’t seemed to change my results. I’m not a PRS shooter, though.

 

[Precision Underground]

Everyone’s out there laser leveling their rifle and scope in a lab while I’m cranking mine down with the rifle canted 4 deg left and using a house in the distance to level the reticle

 

[carbonbased]

Everyone’s out there laser leveling their rifle and scope in a lab while I’m cranking mine down with the rifle canted 4 deg left and using a house in the distance to level the reticle

Brother-in-arms! I luv u man

 

[JakeM]

I'm confused (not surprising ) If you don't level the rifle, how do you know when the bore and the vertical crosshair are in the same vertical plane?

Because it doesn’t have much of an effect if the rifle is slightly canted. In order for the rifle to fit your shoulder it might need to be canted a bit. Now, when we say rifle, we mean rifle. We adjust the rifle to fit the shooter, then level the scope to the shooters position, not the rifle. As long as you are shooting with the scope level you will be just fine. As seen in this demonstration

 

[Rob01]

Everyone’s out there laser leveling their rifle and scope in a lab while I’m cranking mine down with the rifle canted 4 deg left and using a house in the distance to level the reticle

Just use my super precise leveling device from the first page.

 

[Baron23]

I'm confused (not surprising ) If you don't level the rifle, how do you know when the bore and the vertical crosshair are in the same vertical plane?

I level the vertical axis of the rifle...that is, level the rifle to gravity....and then level reticle to gravity which will align the two.

But there seems to be a valid school of thought that this is wasted energy, that for many shooters the gun is NOT level to gravity when mounted and in position, and therefore all you need to do is ensure that the reticle is level and over the center of bore....and I assume that this works only with fairly small angular differences between reticle and vertical axis of the rifle (which will also the vertical axis of the erector and if the angular difference is very much you will shoot low and to one side or the other, right?).

I do it my way as an indulgence of my OCD tendencies! haha

 

[Baron23]

hopefully plumbish edge of my neighbors house lol.

hahaha...went to a friend's house who is a builder with a new gun to show it to him and a few other friends. He exclaimed "your scope isn't level"

I asked how he could tell and he said he lined it up and compared it to the vertical corner line of the house across the street...that he built.

The rest of us looked at each other and said "nah, its fine" LOL

 

[Charger442]

Everyone’s out there laser leveling their rifle and scope in a lab while I’m cranking mine down with the rifle canted 4 deg left and using a house in the distance to level the reticle

That's precision above-ground!

 

[Precision Underground]

That's precision above-ground!

The precision happens when you level the reticle before you fire the rifle. Where it is when you lock it down is irrelevant. Set your rifle up to you and level the reticle to the earth. Then make sure it’s level when you engage a target and you’re fine.

 

[buggz]

Just an unnecessary super OCD thought, all the latest cameras I have purchased have electronic pitch and yaw indicators.
Phones and iPad have these as well as accelerometers.
Shrug, just put them into scopes, walla, super sensitive over the top expensive unnecessary diagnostics that measures your breathing??

 

[iShoot17]

Use the rifle it is going on. If several I'm assuming that you ordered or adjusted your rifles to have the same LOP. I shoot the same actions across the board so that variable is removed. You don't even need a level if your are using a quality action or base and a quality mount. Feeler gauges are your friend. Use the gauges to true the bottom of the turret housing to the rail or mount. Doesn't get much easier.

All the higher end scope manufacturers true the reticle off of the bottom of the housing.

View attachment 7671575

Just set up another scope today using feeler gauges. A very quick and easy process!

 

[Schütze]

Just set up another scope today using feeler gauges. A very quick and easy process!

You still don't get it. The rifle needs to fit the shooter, this could induce a slight cant. Then you adjust the reticle to be level.
Feeler gauges just get you the scope body parallel aligned to the scope rail.

 

[beetroot]

You still don't get it. The rifle needs to fit the shooter, this could induce a slight cant. Then you adjust the reticle to be level.
Feeler gauges just get you the scope body parallel aligned to the scope rail.

No you don't get it, level is life.

 

[Charger442]

So adjust cant of reticle to compensate for poor mechanics with your natural POA? Ok will do

 

[Schütze]

No you don't get it, level is life.

Read post #14 again, think it's yours's

I'm stating the same thing in different words...

 

[Precision Underground]

So adjust cant of reticle to compensate for poor mechanics with your natural POA? Ok will do

What are poor mechanics of natural poa?

 

[Charger442]

What are poor mechanics of natural poa?

In the prone setting, how's your positioning? Are you directly behind the gun? Before laying down, on your knees, are your shoulders and chest parallel to the target?

Obviously out of position shooting this all is moot

 

[Charger442]

What are poor mechanics of natural poa?

Natural POA was the wrong choice of words. I meant positioning and setup.

 

[JakeM]

Lol, I think you have it all backwards.

 

[Precision Underground]

In the prone setting, how's your positioning? Are you directly behind the gun? Before laying down, on your knees, are your shoulders and chest parallel to the target?

Obviously out of position shooting this all is moot

The rifle doesn’t have to be level for good fundamentals. I’d say the rifle probably needs to NOT be level for perfect fundamentals unless you have a perfectly vertical shoulder pocket. I’ve never measured exactly how much but all of my rifles are canted toward my head a pretty good bit. Try it and if you do everything else right you’ll find it’s much more natural. Not only does it fit the shoulder pocket better but it also moves the scope toward your face which means less head tilt is needed. This is a classic misconception that gets hashed out 3 times a month on here because it seems like the rifle would need to be level. It doesn’t need to be level. As long as the reticle is level(plumb is a better description) you’ll be dialing straight up when you add elevation. That’s the part that matters.

 

[308pirate]

In the prone setting, how's your positioning? Are you directly behind the gun? Before laying down, on your knees, are your shoulders and chest parallel to the target?

Obviously out of position shooting this all is moot

That's not what is being discussed. The reticle needs to be brought up to the eye. Canting the rifle slight inboard reduces the amount you need to crane your neck towards the rifle and actually makes it easier to get square behind the rifle.

Canting the rifle (and knowing the dope to correct for the cant in the days of iron sights) is something highpower rifle competitors learn how to do early on.

 

[Charger442]

That's not what is being discussed. The reticle needs to be brought up to the eye. Canting the rifle slight inboard reduces the amount you need to crane your neck towards the rifle and actually makes it easier to get square behind the rifle.

Canting the rifle (and knowing the dope to correct for the cant in the days of iron sights) is something highpower rifle competitors learn how to do early on.

View attachment 7673122

id also say that's not what we are talking about either. but i understand where you are coming from.

different strokes for different folks. id wager none of us are going to change what we are doing based on this thread.

 

[Alpine 338]

I live in the mountains, nothing around here is level, so it just doesn't matter.

 

[Tokay444]

You still don't get it. The rifle needs to fit the shooter, this could induce a slight cant. Then you adjust the reticle to be level.
Feeler gauges just get you the scope body parallel aligned to the scope rail.

This would be a non issue it more stock/chassis builders provided adjustable cant butt plates.

 

[spife7980]

Frank did the best write up on this

 

[Alpine 338]

Yeah, but put a 20-moa rail or mount on the rifle, and the above goes out the window.

 

[308pirate]

id also say that's not what we are talking about either. but i understand where you are coming from.

Yes, it most definitely is. The rifle gets canted in prone and sitting as well. You shoot the rifle that way and adjust the sights till impacts are at POA then write that down in the logbook since the sights can't normally be leveled to the horizon like a scope can be.

 

[Schütze]

Yeah, but put a 20-moa rail or mount on the rifle, and the above goes out the window.

Please explain

 

[Rob01]

I take my little orange level and level the rifle, then level the scope as it’s mounted and then level the scope mounted level and then shoot my rifle. Never an issue with cant. I think I have to make it more complicated so it works into this conversation. Lol

 

[Alpine 338]

Please explain

Anytime you add slope to a rail or mount, you no longer have the bore of the rifle, and the scope in parallel. If you induce cant to the equation, then you have the bullets flight path travelling at an angle (azimuth plane) away from your target.

 

[smoothy8500]

Anytime you add slope to a rail or mount......

Still negligible.

 

[Schütze]

I take my little orange level and level the rifle, then level the scope as it’s mounted and then level the scope mounted level and then shoot my rifle. Never an issue with cant. I think I have to make it more complicated so it works into this conversation. Lol

Maybe your little orange level matches you natural poa ? My levels don't, took me quite some time to understand. Now they are all somewhere in a drawer and my shooting improved.

 

[Schütze]

Anytime you add slope to a rail or mount, you no longer have the bore of the rifle, and the scope in parallel. If you induce cant to the equation, then you have the bullets flight path travelling at an angle (azimuth plane) away from your target.

You win Einstein, but I'll still use my string and weight

 

[db2000]

Did you seriously just suggest you had a BUBBLE level accurate enough to detect manufacturing variations in a pic rail?
I'm sorry, but if indeed there were some discrepancies, a bubble level ain't finding them unless the piece in question has been beaten with a sledge hammer.

You have to buy a Send It fancy level with lights and shit.

 

[Rob01]

Maybe your little orange level matches you natural poi ? My levels don't, took me quite some time to understand. Now they are all somewhere in a drawer and my shooting improved.

Lol well I guess my natural poa is level.

 

[Schütze]

Lol well I guess my natural poa is level.

Please get me some of your med's maybe that fixes mine

 

[spife7980]

Still negligible.

Exactly.

 

[Rob01]

Please get me some of your med's maybe that fixes mine

Maybe if you stopped taking meds it might level out. Lol

 

[ken226]

How canted the rifle needs to be to comfortably fit MY "natural point of aim" tends to be a little different in difference circumstances. Prone tends to be a little different than sitting, kneeling, off a tripod or when shooting from sloped ground on a mountainside. I don't have a public range nearby, so do all of my shooting up in the North Cascades.

So, I just split the difference and level the bottom of the scope body to the pic rail. I don't give a shit if it's not perfect. The magnitude of any error due to a fractional degree of cant, is usually alot less than the accuracy of my wind calls and range estimation anyway.

Perhaps some shoot to such a higher level of precision that it needs to be perfect, but to me it's just not a big enough deal to give a shit about.