I know there are a lot of influencing factors, shooter skills, barrel quality, ammo quality, etc....but, if one were to build a very high quality AR, maybe 6.5CM or .308 as example, and using high quality ammo, what is a realistic expectation for accuracy. Is sub MOA possible or difficult to achieve? I only shoot custom built rifles that shoot little tiny holes, so the idea of building a “long range, or medium range” AR is not really of interest if I cant expect good accuracy. Let’s say 0.5 to under 1.0MOA.....
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“Precision” AR accuracy expectations?
- Thread starter mfloski
- Start date
When I received my Stag Model 6 Super Varminter nearly two decades ago, the company offered a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee using commercial Match ammo. I tested and achieved that standard with it, off bags, using PPU 75gr 223 Match ammo a number of times. The experience literally blew my mind about both Stag and PPU. It was just that hard to believe, yet it did it repeatedly for me. I now have an identical pair of the rifles, which has since been superseded by the Stag 15 Varminter, IMHO an improved version the original Model 6.
You hear the occasional badmouth comment about Stag, for reasons only the commenter can understand, IMHO. What many don't understand is that Stag has been one of the original forerunners in the AR industry, starting out as a producer of AR components for a great many of the high quality AR's we've all been lauding over of decades, some of which are already long gone.
Then Stag looked at that market, noted that nobody was making L/H AR's and took up that challenge, as their first complete AR Rifle offering. The rest is, as they say, history. When I began my efforts at building an AR for myself, I did it as an experiment, buying and assembling the absolutely cheapest parts I could find on Amazon, with one exception, the barrel. The barrel was a Stag 3G barrel, my one concession to higher price components. It looks a little weird, being a first effort; but it still shoots better than I can.
Greg
You hear the occasional badmouth comment about Stag, for reasons only the commenter can understand, IMHO. What many don't understand is that Stag has been one of the original forerunners in the AR industry, starting out as a producer of AR components for a great many of the high quality AR's we've all been lauding over of decades, some of which are already long gone.
Then Stag looked at that market, noted that nobody was making L/H AR's and took up that challenge, as their first complete AR Rifle offering. The rest is, as they say, history. When I began my efforts at building an AR for myself, I did it as an experiment, buying and assembling the absolutely cheapest parts I could find on Amazon, with one exception, the barrel. The barrel was a Stag 3G barrel, my one concession to higher price components. It looks a little weird, being a first effort; but it still shoots better than I can.
Greg
@mfloski -- very hard question to anwer. We work with some very high precision brands, and in the 7.72mm NATO and 6.5mm CM, the best of the best rifles are going to give you around 0.75 MOA at 300 yards, and 1.0 to 1.4 MOA at 800 yards. 6.5 CM does a little better, generally as you punch further than 800 yards, over 7.62mm, but any gas gun is not going to give you the accuracy of a bolt gun, all other factors considered.
Keep in mind that the AR type platform was orginially designed for 2-3 MOA shooting by soldiers in the field, and that is good enough to hit a body at 400 yards or even further. With AR10/SR25/.308AR platforms, some manufacturers have build and sold sniper rifles to the military, like LMT and Knights Armament, and others have worked hard to build a precision rifle like JP and LWRC and others.
Like any gun, the accuracy starts with the barrel, and then moves to the opic, and then to the frame and bolt, so you will find quite a variety of quality in all areas. And then, you get to dimishing returns and spending a lot of money.
But, you know this...
Keep in mind that the AR type platform was orginially designed for 2-3 MOA shooting by soldiers in the field, and that is good enough to hit a body at 400 yards or even further. With AR10/SR25/.308AR platforms, some manufacturers have build and sold sniper rifles to the military, like LMT and Knights Armament, and others have worked hard to build a precision rifle like JP and LWRC and others.
Like any gun, the accuracy starts with the barrel, and then moves to the opic, and then to the frame and bolt, so you will find quite a variety of quality in all areas. And then, you get to dimishing returns and spending a lot of money.
But, you know this...
If I can't drive a Gasser to 1/2 MOA or better with Factory... I move on.
But I know I can drive one better than most, the driver is 3x more important in AR accuracy than a bolt action rifle
Today's semi's should easily be 5/8s or under with factory ammo, that should be the standard for a precision AR.
But I know I can drive one better than most, the driver is 3x more important in AR accuracy than a bolt action rifle
Today's semi's should easily be 5/8s or under with factory ammo, that should be the standard for a precision AR.
My first AR15 was a 5.56 Rock River Arms Predator that shot sub-moa with a bunch of different ammo. My current 6.5CM Aero Precision w/ Criterion barrel is capable sometimes, it's just the idiot reloading ammo and pulling the trigger that's the issue
the right combination of rifle and ammo, .75 moa is doable with a good shooter.
maybe because it was designed specifically to shoot M118LR, the 7.62 version of the Scar 20S seems to shoot factory federal gmm in 175gr under 1 moa for everyone i know that owns one (if you can believe them).
it isn't cheap, but is less than some others that shoot similarly, and at least if is a cl chf barrel, so you can expect decent life from it.
www.snipershide.com
maybe because it was designed specifically to shoot M118LR, the 7.62 version of the Scar 20S seems to shoot factory federal gmm in 175gr under 1 moa for everyone i know that owns one (if you can believe them).
it isn't cheap, but is less than some others that shoot similarly, and at least if is a cl chf barrel, so you can expect decent life from it.
KAC SR25 ECR/M110 or FNH Scar 20s?
Alright guys, Interesting topic (i think). For DMR work (7.62 inside 850M), which of the two is the best? I am considering purchasing one of the two platforms, however am not tied to either brand. The KAC would be around $6000 all kitted out to resemble an M110 while the Scar 20s would be...
www.snipershide.com
My Precision Firearms Grendel 6.5 upper shoots consistently 1/2 MOA or better. Technically it's a Les Baer Custom 264 LBC barrel, but it's easier just to call it a 6.5 Grendel. 
I’ve multiple AR’s that shoot under .75moa when I’m driving them properly. If a gun won’t do that over 4-5 5rd groups consecutively, I’ll sell the barrel.
A lot falls on the shooter. They are not the same as a bolt gun.
A lot falls on the shooter. They are not the same as a bolt gun.
Most the people who I see struggling the most with Semi's are Bolt Guys who like to shoot their bolt guns free recoiling. I never shoot my AR's like a bolt rifles, but I shoot every rifle like I'm shooting a Semi. If you want to be proficient with a Semi auto learn the focus and discipline it takes to shoot a 1/2 MOA 6x5's. I promise those skill will carry over.
I've had one AR-15 that would not shoot, a recent build with a Ballistic Advantage barrel. Thought I'd try a cheep barrel and re-learned a lesson Compass Lake is money in the bank. I have a couple CLE Krieger barrels that will shoot with just about anything.
Compass Lake is money in the bank. I have a couple CLE Krieger barrels that will shoot with just about anything.I just went through all the targets I have photos of for my Seekins SP10M & the best group I shot since March was .51" and the worst was 1.13" because I was being lazy. Those two groups were shot back to back.
They all averaged out to 3/4" with Hornady 168gr TAP. I haven't shot it as much as I'd like, and if I do my job it shoots on par with my issued AI in my hands.
Accuracy is the same with our without a suppressor.
A couple of our new team members with no sniper training shot it as well & I don't remember exactly what their groups were like, but we were all pleased with their performance.
They all averaged out to 3/4" with Hornady 168gr TAP. I haven't shot it as much as I'd like, and if I do my job it shoots on par with my issued AI in my hands.
Accuracy is the same with our without a suppressor.
A couple of our new team members with no sniper training shot it as well & I don't remember exactly what their groups were like, but we were all pleased with their performance.
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My custom Wilson 16" barreled 5.56 AR15 shoots .5-.7" groups depending on the ammo. FGMM 69gr SMK 0.5"and Handloaded 55gr 0.6-0.7" that's with a 6x optic at 100yds from a bench. My brothers custom AR10 in 6.5Cr with a 22" BA barrel and a host of JP goodies shoots 0.3-0.5" group at 100yds from a bench with Hornady 140gr ELDM. His custom Delton with a sporter barrel will shoot under an inch with any decent ammo.
Me personally I won't keep a necked case rifle that won't shoot 1MOA or better at 100yds.
Me personally I won't keep a necked case rifle that won't shoot 1MOA or better at 100yds.
My buddy sent me a pic of hits on 8" steel at 300 yds with his new Compass Lake 16" tactical upper .223, 7.7 twist, that you can easily cover with a silver dollar using Sierra 60 gr varmiters. Somewhat less than 1 moa. I was so impressed I have ordered one too.
How many rounds?
I hate to wear out this soap box but 5, and even 10 shot groups are subject to more white noise than most people realize.
It also matters the standard that people are looking for. I may be alone in this but I'd rather know that EVERY round out of a string of 200 (a PRS match) is going into a 1.1 MOA cone than to say that the rifle is often capable of 5/8 or 1/2 MOA groups. Both statements describe the same rifle. One is useful for evaluating hit probability, one sounds good on the internet.
Semi autos and bolt guns go together like working off hooks and bucket trucks. If you can do the first well, you can do the second well. Just because you can do the second well, doesn't mean you can do the first one well.
A lot of good and true comments ITT. My .308 does about .75 MOA at 200 and 300 yrds very consistently, but as has been pointed out here, it depends on how many rounds you are talking about it a group. I do 7 shot groups with my AR's to formulate a "group size" . I call my AR guns "600 yd guns" . Get out past that, and you need to be on a bolt. I have no interest in trying to go beyond 600yds with an AR anyway, nor is there anywhere to shoot around here to get a shot past that so....
Good comment. I feel like I'm one of those guys. I have several bolt guns, all of which I can shoot sub MOA all day. Depending on the gun I probably average between .4 and .8 five shot groups at 100 yards. Never been able to transfer this to AR15's/10's. I do get 1 MOA groups from time to time, probably average around 1.3-1.5 and can frequently get sub MOA 4 shot groups ... and then the inevitable flyer. I am certain it's not any kind of flinch or jerking the trigger since I'm pretty good at calling my shots and I am very consistent on a bolt gun. Instead, I think it happens on recoil. I'm not in the exact same position behind the rifle each time. Or the gun in not resting on the rear bag the same way shot to shot.
Recently, I've started experimenting with shooting the semi's differently than I shoot the bolt action rifles. So bolt action I load the bipod into my shoulder but don't really pull back on the gun with my firing hand. With semi's have started trying to pull the butt of the rifle into my shoulder with firing hand and also paying attention to the recoil of the gun. Have noticed that when the gun recoils the same way (generally slightly up and straight back) bullets seem to impact in same place. When gun recoils inconsistently (a little to the left or right) is when groups open up or I get a flyer.
Does this make sense?
Not everyone needs to shoot 10 rounds every time to know where they stand with a rifle
I know how to shoot a Precision AR, if you are not as sure, practice more, I do.
I can tell how well a rifle will work for me pretty quickly, it’s called experience
so frank posted a link to a level (of all things) the other day and that led me down a rabbit hole somehow ending up at the FN Expert training system. this device uses some kind of laser system (not visible) to track the motion of the gun prior to, during and after the trigger pull, either dry fire or live fire. then shows you a track of your poa the entire time, and the difference between poa when you start the trigger pull, and poi (if any).
i don't seem to have any particular glaring difficulties, but it would be interesting to try this out.
i don't seem to have any particular glaring difficulties, but it would be interesting to try this out.
My 2 cents, the ar is an unforgiving platform when shooting at distances. The parts do okay a role but it focuses a lot on the shooter and discipline. You’re fighting more forces than you would with a bolt gun do to the recoil of the bolt and all that. It’s definitely doable to shoot single to sub moa groups, I’ve seen it done. Sub moa is damn near impossible for me currently but I’m also not the best shooter around. As stated above to shoot the ar platform well at distance you have to take what you do bolt action wise and throw it out the window because they’re two different disciplines
It really is different. I can't shoot what my gun will do on my AR-308. In a sled, the gun will do .75 and maybe better at 300yds very consistently, but without the sled I can't get under 1moa at 300 or more with any repeatability. Getting the gas tuned well helps a lot on AR guns. Some good advice was given here about "being able to do it with an AR platform, and that translating to a bolt gun very well, but it doesn't quite work the same way from bolt guns to AR. The platform wasn't made for distance shooting, we all just try to push the envelope with everything because it's fun to do.
I'm interested to see how all this works out with a can on my gun. Hopefully, that can will be on my gun sooner rather than later...
I love the, I can’t do it, so they are no good comments
A gas gun today is every bit as accurate as a bolt gun, the difference is the movement in the system. The Driver matters in a bolt gun you can get away with most everything, as people demonstrate everyday.
Once you learn to drive one right you stop lamenting these things
It’s not voodoo it‘s a good barrel on a well built system with a real driver behind the wheel
A gas gun today is every bit as accurate as a bolt gun, the difference is the movement in the system. The Driver matters in a bolt gun you can get away with most everything, as people demonstrate everyday.
Once you learn to drive one right you stop lamenting these things
It’s not voodoo it‘s a good barrel on a well built system with a real driver behind the wheel
LL, is the bipod “backwards” in the video?
Mantis x does pretty much the same and cheeper. No experience with the FN product but the X is pretty good.
have you seen anyone do the JP challenge with a 7.62x51mm?
i noticed how short and light the recoil impulse of that 6.5cm is with that brake, so obviously that is a factor.
the rear recoil impulse of the scar seems shorter/softer compared to an ar-10, i assume because of the short-stroke piston pushing that massive bolt carrier, although you do have that heaver impulse as it goes back into battery.
have you tried one, frank (a scar 20s)? you can definitely shoot mine if you are ever in southern california. (anyone can).
About a minute on target at 600 with a 223 7.5T 20 inch Shilen and March 4.5X scope. Prone with sling. Not mine, but by one of our state team shooters. Target has 1 MOA X ring.
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they are like night and day. But it is true if you can shoot distance well on the ar platform you can do great things with a bolt action. Alas I agree it does not go so well the other way around.
Getting the gas tune does help a lot, it makes the recoil a little less harsh. I have an agb as well as kynshot buffer and tubs spring it they work pretty well together. That and I shoot 6.5cm which helps lessen the recoil without compromising ballistics.
I’m hoping to get half decent with it so whenever I get around to finishing my bolt gun it will be less of a learning curve
In October we did the JP challenge with a student, he did it at 600 with a 308, slower time off flight, the 308s are easier really
he was using an HK if i remember right, he drove it like a raped ape, hung with every bolt gun.
he was using an HK if i remember right, he drove it like a raped ape, hung with every bolt gun.
I have looked at that Kynshot many times but didn't know if it would #1. Cause function issues. #2. Make a real difference. I may get one if it actually helps with recoil. My .308 recoil is fairly significant and I'm sure part of why I have a little more trouble on that one than others. I thought about going with another caliber, but for this particular build, I wanted to stay in the NATO rounds (for other reasons) and .308 is really the only option for distance. Obviously, you can shoot a long damn way with an AR platform but where I live (in AL), it's really hard to find a shot at 600 yds, much less twice that, so I tend to focus on shooting sub-MOA at a shorter distance (600 or less). I just can't seem to shoot as consistently well as I'd like to. By that I mean, one day I am shooting lights out, and the next time I'm just not shooting that well. I should probably study up a bit on my technique, but hopefully this year I can finally buy the land I want and then will have a good place to really set up a place to shoot.
Anything else you have on your AR like the kynshot that I may want to get?
Training?
Sounds like you want it? If you want it get it. But if the gun is built right you don’t need it. If it’s one built right it won’t fix it...I’m not a gunsmith or armorer just my humble opinion. I have shot some of the hydraulic buffers and couldn’t tell a difference, in small frame ARs anyway. A couple of buddies ended up going back to standard buffers.
As far as functioning issues with a kynshot I haven’t had any with my gun yet. I’ve read of people running into some but mine cycles fine. As far as how big of a difference it makes I’m not really sure. The recoil is noticeably less than other ar10’s I’ve shot but I also have a tubbs spring and adjustable gas block tuned down just enough to cycle without issues.
I would highly recommend an adjustable gas block before I recommend anything else though, especially if you want to run suppressed at any point. The gas block imo contributes the most to lessen recoil
The lowly 223 for killing TX size deer inside 200 is not too bad with 77 TMK. And quite effective with MK262s on 2 legged critters from what I hear.
For punching paper at 1000 yards, prone and sling the 223 is a lot of fun on the NRA LR target. Won this wood with a 223 AR against Palma guns and Magnums in 1997. More than 95% of the shots were inside a minute using 80 VLDs at warp speed, new brass were one and done. With irons sights that is about what you could expect from the 223 gas gun.
For punching paper at 1000 yards, prone and sling the 223 is a lot of fun on the NRA LR target. Won this wood with a 223 AR against Palma guns and Magnums in 1997. More than 95% of the shots were inside a minute using 80 VLDs at warp speed, new brass were one and done. With irons sights that is about what you could expect from the 223 gas gun.
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Oh yeah I've got a well built custom gun with a adjustable block. I just haven't ever tried any of the hydraulic type bigger systems so I was referring to stuff like that.
@lowlight what are the keys to effectively consistently running the gasser? Is it mostly tied up in Recoil management? Or is it a lot more complicated than that?
I can get moa w my RRA AR but no better. I struggle to get w my M1A supermatch under 1.5 moa. I think both of these rifles can shoot better if I knew how to run them.
do you also shoot bolt guns and do you shoot it basically the same way?
seems like people are more passive with bolt guns, and natural point of aim...
i might be doing it completely wrong, but i drive the gas gun a bit more, and don't point and shoot it and hope it stays on target.
I shoot bolt guns mostly—-6.5cm and 6cm. I’m hoping to learn specifically what I need to do differently. I’ve been shooting my AR a long time but I’ve never been properly trained on the gas platform.
i'm the last person here to ask, but i have learned to follow through more, which to me means more than just holding my trigger press, but holding my entire firing position through the shot.
my rifle is a scar 20s and because it is on the heavy side, it doesn't just sit in my shoulder pocket unless i have some pressure against the bipod and my bag hand is probably a bit more active in keeping that connection solid,
i think i have an advantage though because even people that don't like scars generally agree that they are easy to shoot well.
IMO it’s less about recoil and more about consistency. A lot of guys aren’t set up on a true NPA and don’t ever make the rifle an extension of themselves. They’re pushing on the bipod and smashing their cheek into the stock trying to find a position and get on target. These varying pressures on the rifle can make the POI change. You can get away with a lot more with a bolt gun. More parts/connections of parts and more moving parts makes consistency in your interaction with the rifle key to getting consistent results in a gas gun. Lock time and recoil do play a role but IMO you don’t shoot a gas gun better because you control recoil better. You shoot a gas gun better because your set up/rifle connection is better and more consistent which automatically leads to better recoil control. So giving the rifle consistent connection to the correct platform(your body’s connection to the ground)makes the bullet go where you want it to more often. If you get that right recoil control is a byproduct.
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this is an example of what i mean, although this is from a tripod (mounted on an anvil-30).
the 5 shots in the middle are shot passive, natural point of aim on the tripod with minimal connection to the rifle. not completely free recoil because i am still behind the rifle. basically letting the rifle do its thing along with the flex in the frame.
above that are 2 groups, 3 and 7 shots, where i am doing what precision underground is telling me not to do. i am not mashing my cheek into the stock, but i am "taking the slack" out between tripod, rifle and scope and driving the gun into the target. those 7 shots took less than 5 seconds.
again, i am not saying that is how you should do it, but it is what is working for me with my setup.
maybe decades of shooting shotguns taught me bad habits that work for me.
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This is my informal observation as well. I would only add that I think that how the rifle is set up also plays some role in the overall accuracy that a shooter is getting. For example, using an LPVO with thicker CQB type recticle in a higher mount designed with a more of a heads up shooting position in mind. Maybe using a carbine type stock vs something that lends its self to more stable/consistent shooting positions.
As lowlight mentioned, the shooter is way more important in getting that last bit of accuracy with large frame gas guns, and if the shooter is constantly messing with a cheek weld or messing around trying to build up a shooting position, its going to show up on target.
When I coach service rifle shooters I find a lot of them steering the rifle with their firing hand. A good check is to slowly release the grip as you watch your sight picture. It should not change. If the sight picture changes, adjust position, the forward elbow, NPA, buttstock placement
Another thing is grip high, and let the trigger finger rest where it wants to be. Forget about trying to shoot with the finger tip pad.
Get behind the gun as much as you could, absorb the recoil as much as straight down the body as you could.
Bang, hold, and reset after recoil keeping an eye on the front post and call your shot. Take note where the rifle settles back. It should be back to your sight picture and just requires slight centering. If the rifle settles back at a different spot after firing, adjust position, buttstock placement, NPA, sling, or forward elbow position.
Another thing is grip high, and let the trigger finger rest where it wants to be. Forget about trying to shoot with the finger tip pad.
Get behind the gun as much as you could, absorb the recoil as much as straight down the body as you could.
Bang, hold, and reset after recoil keeping an eye on the front post and call your shot. Take note where the rifle settles back. It should be back to your sight picture and just requires slight centering. If the rifle settles back at a different spot after firing, adjust position, buttstock placement, NPA, sling, or forward elbow position.
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