1/2 MOA at 100 yards, all day, every day!

[jgraves]

Now that I have your attention, how? What does it take to produce 1/2 MOA(ish) groups on demand? Is it even possible with 22LR and if so, with what caveats?

There are enough 6x5 averages posted in the 1/2 MOA range that it can't be a statistical anomaly. There are some extremely skilled shooters on this forum with the best available equipment. Personally, I consider myself a mechanically good shooter with good equipment. I would guess I'm capable of holding sub 1/8" MOA from a bench or prone with a bipod and squishing rear bag. I shoot a V-22 with 18" Bartlein MTU barrel. During ammo testing I averaged 0.905 MOA at 104 yards over 10x 10 shot groups with the best lot of Lapua X-Act. I had a calibrated wind flag at 50 yards and tried to fire all shots with less than 2.5 - 3 mph crosswind. I'm admittedly a novice with reading wind. I made no effort to compensate for wind during these groups.

For those that have posted averages in the 1/2 MOA range, could you do so on any day, or were those days "special"? Could you do so throughout the day, on any "average" day, or were those groups shot on the one day every 3 years where there is no wind between 6:45 and 7am? Are you shooting indoors? Are you talanted enough to shoot 1/2 MOA in variable winds without flags? I would like to believe it's possible but rare.

My perception is it takes a lot of ammo well matched to the gun, with either an exceptionally good shooter compensating for wind, or exceptionally good conditions. If I were to offer a $100k bet for you could show up at my range tomorrow, regardless of conditions, and produce 10x 10 shoot groups with a sub-1/2 MOA average, would anyone be interested and how would they approach it? What does it take to go from 1 MOA to 1/2 MOA groups (consistantly)?

For anyone curious, here are my results from X-Act testing along with my best target.

Series	Ammo	Lot	Brake	Shots:	Space	Group ES	Group SD	Group Mean	Target	Space2	Min	Max	Avg	S-D	ES
5	X-Act	26557/709904	Yes	10		1.393	0.187	0.739	X-Act 04 A		1068	1080	1075	3.967	12
6	X-Act	30555/706293	Yes	10		1.422	0.241	0.718	X-Act 93 A		1082	1111	1092	8.985	29
7	X-Act	27557/700011	Yes	10		0.848	0.165	0.454	X-Act 11 A		1076	1095	1088	7.152	19
8	X-Act	26557/709904	Yes	10		0.779	0.14	0.405	X-Act 04 B		1071	1088	1080	5.735	17
9	X-Act	30555/706293	Yes	10		1.023	0.189	0.539	X-Act 93 B		1074	1102	1091	8.548	28
10	X-Act	27557/700011	Yes	10		0.892	0.126	0.475	X-Act 11 B		1082	1100	1089	5.355	18
11	X-Act	26557/709904	Yes	10		1.465	0.244	0.778	X-Act 04 C		1075	1092	1083	5.187	17
12	X-Act	30555/706293	Yes	10		1.181	0.202	0.655	X-Act 93 C		1094	1102	1097	2.807	8
13	X-Act	27557/700011	Yes	10		0.85	0.131	0.474	X-Act 11 C		1081	1099	1092	5.681	18
14	X-Act	26557/709904	Yes	10		1.052	0.172	0.597	X-Act 04 D		1072	1094	1081	7.972	22
15	X-Act	30555/706293	Yes	10		1.356	0.235	0.725	X-Act 93 D		1089	1107	1099	5.519	18
16	X-Act	27557/700011	Yes	10		0.824	0.157	0.434	X-Act 11 D		1084	1104	1093	6.367	20
17	X-Act	26557/709904	Yes	10		1.718	0.383	0.865	X-Act 04 E		1072	1103	1086	8.638	31
18	X-Act	30555/706293	Yes	10		1.041	0.156	0.589	X-Act 93 E		1076	1103	1092	7.226	27
19	X-Act	27557/700011	Yes	10		1.09	0.217	0.616	X-Act 11 E		1080	1105	1096	7.763	25
20	X-Act	26557/709904	No	9		1.228	0.169	0.654	X-Act 04 G		1076	1091	1083	4.676	15
21	X-Act	30555/706293	No	10		1.108	0.158	0.608	X-Act 93 G		1091	1105	1098	4.552	14
22	X-Act	27557/700011	No	10		0.966	0.155	0.514	X-Act 11 G		1091	1111	1101	6.996	20
23	X-Act	26557/709904	No	10		1.824	0.299	0.945	X-Act 04 H		1065	1103	1081	11.06	38
24	X-Act	30555/706293	No	10		0.973	0.183	0.513	X-Act 93 H		1089	1109	1098	6.59	20
25	X-Act	27557/700011	No	10		0.847	0.161	0.487	X-Act 11 H		1082	1109	1099	8.003	27
26	X-Act	26557/709904	No	10		1.444	0.252	0.732	X-Act 04 I		1060	1096	1079	13.5	36
27	X-Act	30555/706293	No	10		1.035	0.231	0.565	X-Act 93 I		1091	1119	1103	8.346	28
28	X-Act	27557/700011	No	10		0.684	0.108	0.374	X-Act 11 I		1088	1106	1096	6.498	18
29	X-Act	26557/709904	No	10		1.412	0.228	0.754	X-Act 04 J		1073	1103	1084	8.68	30
30	X-Act	30555/706293	No	10		1.396	0.241	0.76	X-Act 93 J		1092	1119	1104	8.247	27
31	X-Act	27557/700011	No	10		0.942	0.164	0.54	X-Act 11 J		1094	1113	1102	7.593	19
32	X-Act	26557/709904	No	10		1.325	0.223	0.674	X-Act 04 K		1066	1107	1084	10.54	41
33	X-Act	30555/706293	No	10		1.359	0.237	0.732	X-Act 93 K		1093	1112	1102	6.004	19
34	X-Act	27557/700011	No	10		1.1	0.245	0.584	X-Act 11 K		1083	1110	1100	8.367	27

This is my best group from the session. Excluding the high right shot, it is 0.485 MOA. As a point of reference, a 1mph change in crosswind component accounts for 1/2" deviation in that shot.

Jeff

 

[justin amateur]

Hey Jeff, a couple years ago, I asked what would happen
if you sent the whole box at a single aim point, using rimfire at 100 yards.
Any setup, any caliber, indoors or out, and no one could hold 1/2 inch at 100 yards.
Three shooters were able to hold sub inch, but not by much.

Ammunition quality and conditions are the 2 factors that can't be beat.

 

[jgraves]

Justin, do you have a link to the thread?

 

[justin amateur]

Stand by....found it....

The whole box at 100 yards

Just a thought...what do y'all think would happen, if 5 shot groups went the way of the dodo, and if ya' were going to show off how well ye'r rifle can do at 100 yards, was accomplished by sending all 50 shots at a single aimpoint. I have a feeling it'd pretty much end claims of "sub-moa all day...

www.snipershide.com

 

[0724/1030]

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/the-whole-box-at-100-yards.7033547/

 

[jbell]

Are you asking if anyone can produce 1/2 MOA consistently or on demand at 100 yards, or if there is equipment (rifle and ammo) that is capable?

I believe there probably is equipment that is capable or at least pretty damn close in ideal conditions (controlled environment). However, take that same equipment into an uncontrolled environment (outdoors) I would struggle to believe that it can be done consistently, meaning long strings of fire and day to day.

As everyone knows the ammo is going to be the biggest struggle. Even the best ammo made will have a round or two in every box that isn’t going to preform as well as the majority of the box. How bad those bad rounds will be is a crap shoot and there really isn’t any way of knowing which round it will be or how bad it will deviate. The other big variable is how well the shooter can maintain the best shot sequence (not execute a bad shot). Rimfire is very unforgiving in this sense with the low velocity of the bullet staying in the bore so much longer than centerfire.

IMO I expect an accurate rifle and good ammo to easily shoot MOA at 100 yards for the most part. In my experience those same rifles will produce sub 1/2 MOA 5 round group @ 100 yards occasionally. I have had multiple 1/4-ish MOA groups in an outing and other days with the same rifle and ammo where I struggle to hold MOA. There are just so many variables with rimfire, which is what makes it so fun!

 

[jgraves]

I’m hoping to start a discussion about all aspects of shooting small groups with 22lr, gun, ammo, rest/position, shooter skill, technique, etc. Generally what does it take to generate the group sizes we all aspire to, but with statistically significant sample sizes? I want to improve my own shooting and confidence in my equipment, as well as expose the amount of effort the best shooters put into producing these results.

Your 6x5 thread was an excellent step in this direction. Although I’ve personally focused on multiple 10 shot groups and plan to try aggregate 50 shot groups with MR and SD in the future, 6x5 is many times more representative of capability than a single 3 or 5 shot group, as clearly shown by the difference between average and best groups in that thread.

I believe there exists rifle/ammo/shooter combinations that can produce large sample groups around (and perhaps under) 1/2 MOA, on demand, any day of the week. What I’m hoping to get out of this discussion is some insight as to what if takes to get there.

I’ll claim to have a sub MOA rifle/ammo based on the data in the first post, 0.905 MOA average and only 2 of 10 groups over 1 MOA by a small margin (Lot 700011). This is a premium rifle with lot tested premium ammo, but only 9 lots tested (3 of X-Act), it’s still factory produced rifle and less than ideal conditions.

Would the rifle shoot better if it was selected as the best grouping rifle ever to leave the Vudoo factory? What if I tested 50 lots of X-Act to select from? What if I tested in a tunnel vs outdoors, maybe in the fixtue at the Lapua test center, rather than bag and bipod? Would a more skilled shooter compensate for changing wind conditions during the group, while I tried to time my shots between gusts? What are the shooters doing to post average groups around 1/2 MOA?

 

[obx22]

There are so very many unknowns to a question like this.
Will a barreled action shoot differently from a non-recoiling fixture vs a return to battery rail gun carriage?
I would think the more accurate of the two (if there is one) would be the starting point towards such a test.

 

[bulletbluesky]

Actually "hole-in-hole" shooting is physically impossible. Even with perfect shooter, perfect ammo, constant muzzle velocity in no wind condition. Do you know why?

 

[jbell]

I’m hoping to start a discussion about all aspects of shooting small groups with 22lr, gun, ammo, rest/position, shooter skill, technique, etc. Generally what does it take to generate the group sizes will all aspire to but with statistically significant sample sizes? I want to improve my own shooting and confidence is my equipment, as well as expose the amount of effort the best shooters put into producing these results.

Your 6x5 thread was an excellent step in this direction. Although I’ve personally focused on multiple 10 shot groups and plan to try aggregate 50 shot groups with MR and SD in the future, 6x5 is many times more representative of capability than a single 3 or 5 shot group, as clearly shown by the difference between average and best groups in that thread.

I believe there exists rifle/ammo/shooter combinations that can produce large sample groups around and perhaps under 1/2 MOA, on demand, any day of the week. What I’m hoping to get out of this discussion is some insight as to what if takes to get there.

I’ll claim to have a sub MOA rifle/ammo based on the data in the first post, 0.905 MOA average and only 2 of 10 groups over 1 MOA by a small margin (Lot 700011). This is a premium rifle with lot tested premium ammo, but only 9 lots tested (3 of X-Act), it’s still factory produced rifle and less than ideal conditions.

Would the rifle shoot better if it was selected as the best grouping rifle ever to leave the Vudoo factory? What if I tested 50 lots of x-Act to select from? What if I tested in a tunnel vs outdoors, maybe in the fixtue at the Lapua test center, rather than bag and bipod? Would a more skilled shooter compensate for changing wind conditions during the group, while I tried to time my shots between gusts? What are the shooters doing to post average groups around 1/2 MOA?

I am by no means an expert, but I have shot quite a bit and have been able to hold my own in competition. With that said I enjoy discussions like this, they are similar to what I am thinking most about while I’m not shooting.

Testing ammo is very important to get the most out of a rifle. As you know generally a rifle will favor a particular ammo (brand & model), and particular lot numbers within that particular brand and model. So yes, ammo testing is very important! Environmental conditions have a massive impact on rimfire, not just the wind but also the ambient temp, ammo temp, and even bore temp. So controlling or eliminating those can be very helpful. But be aware that not all indoor ranges are ideal for maximum accuracy. I have seen some that have wind conditions caused by ventilation systems coming on and off and even thermal winds caused by heating and cooling systems. These ranges can be VERY difficult to shoot well in especially if they have quiet systems in them where you don’t know when they turn on or off.

There are so very many unknowns to a question like this.
Will a barreled action shoot differently from a non-recoiling fixture vs a return to battery rail gun carriage?
I would think the more accurate of the two (if there is one) would be the starting point towards such a test.

This is a good question. I have found that precision rimfire rifles show inconsistency in the position more so than centerfire rifles. A variation in pressure on the rifle (shoulder, cheek, grip, etc.) in a lot of times show accuracy change (gain or loss depending on your point of reference).

 

[obx22]

Actually "hole-in-hole" shooting is physically impossible. Even with perfect shooter, perfect ammo, constant muzzle velocity in no wind condition. Do you know why?

No, but I could give you a page full of variables we will likely never be able to overcome. Since accuracy comes from consistency, the cards are stacked against us from the get-go.
1. Ammo, The brass would have to have both the exact same wall thickness cartridge to cartridge, as well as the same deformation characteristics in the rim for identical crush beneath the firing pin. The brass’s tension and release of the slug must be identical for each shot. The dimensions of these cases must be in every way identical, length, diameter, rim thickness around the entire diameter, and the crimp must release the slug at the identical moment in the pressure curve.
The primer must have the same consistency and amounts in the rim, across the base, and up the sidewalls of the case, the blend must react identically with the same flame propagation shot to shot. The powder granules must be of identical size, shape, weight and volume, ignition temperatures, and corresponding gas output as their brethren, along with an identical charge and uniform powder column shot to shot. The slug must be of identical uniform weight, shape, size, alloy mixture, deformation characteristics, roundness, and wear an identical amount and thickness of lubricant.
During the pin strike, prior to ignition, the powder must agitate in the same pattern to catch and propagate the flame front in an identical manner. This requires identical humidity levels and relative “stickiness” of the powder granules.
There must be an identical amount of carbon buildup at the chamber lead for the same amount of resistance to the slug’s initial movement during case release. This carbon must be uniform to aid in not deforming the slug and dragging jagged trailing “fins” where the slugs rearmost driving band ends and the skirt begins.
Shot to shot, identical amounts of the ash/particulates and bullet lube from the fired rounds must be in the bore, distributed in the same locations. Said particulates when pushed by each succeeding round, must leave the slugs nose at precisely the same distance from the crown and in the exact same pattern shot to shot.

How do we hit anything with these amounts of variables?

 

[jbell]

I’m hoping to start a discussion about all aspects of shooting small groups with 22lr, gun, ammo, rest/position, shooter skill, technique, etc. Generally what does it take to generate the group sizes will all aspire to but with statistically significant sample sizes? I want to improve my own shooting and confidence is my equipment, as well as expose the amount of effort the best shooters put into producing these results.

Your 6x5 thread was an excellent step in this direction. Although I’ve personally focused on multiple 10 shot groups and plan to try aggregate 50 shot groups with MR and SD in the future, 6x5 is many times more representative of capability than a single 3 or 5 shot group, as clearly shown by the difference between average and best groups in that thread.

I believe there exists rifle/ammo/shooter combinations that can produce large sample groups around and perhaps under 1/2 MOA, on demand, any day of the week. What I’m hoping to get out of this discussion is some insight as to what if takes to get there.

I’ll claim to have a sub MOA rifle/ammo based on the data in the first post, 0.905 MOA average and only 2 of 10 groups over 1 MOA by a small margin (Lot 700011). This is a premium rifle with lot tested premium ammo, but only 9 lots tested (3 of X-Act), it’s still factory produced rifle and less than ideal conditions.

Would the rifle shoot better if it was selected as the best grouping rifle ever to leave the Vudoo factory? What if I tested 50 lots of x-Act to select from? What if I tested in a tunnel vs outdoors, maybe in the fixtue at the Lapua test center, rather than bag and bipod? Would a more skilled shooter compensate for changing wind conditions during the group, while I tried to time my shots between gusts? What are the shooters doing to post average groups around 1/2 MOA?

You may or may not have seen this thread that never really got any traction:

5X10 100 yard challenge

I have been thinking about starting this up for a while, so I decided to give it a go today to see if it draws any interest. If so maybe we can make it a sticky. Not to take the place of the 6X5 thread which I will keep going as long as there are people who want to shoot it, but rather another...

www.snipershide.com

 

[justin amateur]

Yep, every rifle has a cartridge preference.
Finding that brand is a neverending search.
Why? The damn rifle will change it's mind.

Seriously, that's exactly what happens.
I found a brick of SK made Wolf Match Extra.
Sub moa 5 shot groups at 100 yards consistent as heck.
It was glorious. Then the rifle changed it's mind.
The next brick of Wolf ME spit strays and was lucky
to produce 1.5 to 2 moa at 100 yards. WTF?
Same brand, same type of cartridges but bulk results.

So, back to hunting for a new brand the rifle would like.
Found it. RWS R50...3 bricks that made that CZ 455 Lilja happy.
Right up until the rifle changed it's mind again with the next purchase of R50. WTF?

Back to searching. Found some CenterX that was phenomenal.
5 and 10 shot bug holes at 50 yards. Next purchase, rifle said yuck. WTF?

This kept happening.
SK Biathlon Sport, Eley Match, Tenex, R100, SK Pistol Match, Midas+,
find a couple bricks the rifle liked, then next brick purchased, the rifle said phooey.

What do you do. Buying by brand didn't work.
Until I had a discussion with a few benchrest shooters.
It wasn't the brand the rifle liked, it was the quality of that batch.
That's what was making the rifle happy, cartridge quality.
Components and assembly done right, tight muzzle velocities are what was wanted.
Find well made cartridges and they produce excellent results in all my rifles.
Poorly made cartridges throw strays from all my rifles.

Brand is no guarantee of results, due to component and assembly variations.
It's those batches that the assembly line lottery spits out,
those rimfire jewels the rifles liked, that we hunt for.

 

[bulletbluesky]

No, but I could give you a page full of variables we will likely never be able to overcome. Since accuracy comes from consistency, the cards are stacked against us from the get-go.

Because of the yaw. Initial angle of bullet yaw after it excits the muzzle is a parameter that deviates from shot to shot (within certian limits). Therefore, small initial differences in yaw affect trajectories, even thou everything else is kept the same. How big can these effect be at 100 meters range? For some low velocity ammo, the 10 shot group is the size of 2 caliber. At least that was the result of simuli for .32 acp . IIRC at 100 m, 10 shot group for such bullet is expected to be about 0.6" dia just because of yawing effects. I don't know about 22 LR

 

[JohnnyJohnsoninWI]

Hmmm, I always thought it was spelled YAW. But I'm no expert.

 

[jgraves]

Thanks for the links to the related threads Justin and JBell. I had forgotten about both of them.

My experience with ammo preferences is similar to Justin's but with minor differences. Short version, lot preferences are gun specific.

My re-introduction to shooting as an adult was bullseye pistol, mostly indoors at 20 yards. Pistol and ammo accuracy really doesn't matter at my skill level, it's much more important that the pistol be easy to shoot and the ammo reliable. Several club members were buying SK (mostly Std+) by the case so I did as well, and soon developed a relationship with Hirsch Precision, which is near my parents (and 1000 miles from me).

After occasionally playing with the Vostok CM-2 I shot as a youth, a co-worker informed me of National Service Conditions Championships (https://www.dcrastatsshack.ca/2019/nscc/2019_nscc_course_of_fire.pdf), held at the military range where he shot. Thinking it would be fun and I could likely do well based on my 3 position and air rifle shooting as a youth, I purchased a Ruger SR-22 to begin training indoors at my pistol club. I soon discovered I could hold (prone with M1907 sling) better than the rifle would shoot, replaced everything but receiver and chassis with KIDD components and began a hunt for ammo.

I would buy a couple boxes to a brick of various "match" or "target" ammo and eventually settled on Center-X for shooting prone or supported at 50+ yards. The next time I visited my parents, I bought a case of Center-X from Hirsch and it was no better than Std+ in the SR-22 (Lot A for future reference). Dissappointed, I was shooting it indoors, unsupport positions and give a brick to my brother. I had long given up on the thought of NSCC but learned of NRL22 at another local range. This soon became ORPS and CRPS (think Canadian NRL22 and NRL22X) and about the same time I became aware of Tesro (local) stocking SK / Lapua ammo by the case. After testing several lots, I purchased their remaining inventory of a lot (~1.5 cases, Lot B). In any reasonable conditions, I could produce sub-1.25 MOA at 100 yards all day long. If I missed a target inside 200 yards, it was me. But I had some experiences where I missed past 200 that I didn't think were me. ES was much worse with the SR-22 vs any bolt gun I compared it to, with any lot of ammo.

So I bought / built the Vudoo and went to the range, thinking I had a good lot of Center-X (Lot B). I also still have a couple bricks of that crappy lot (Lot A), so I'll use it to season the barrel and get the scope close. I wasn't shooting groups with Lot A but it appeared to be doing okay. Lot B is shooting similar to the SR-22, averaging just over MOA. Not terrible but not what I was hoping for. Back to Lot A and the groups are looking better. Not solidly sub-MOA but averaging MOA and a fair portion of groups either in the 0.7 - 0.9 MOA range or clusters of shots + 1 or 2 fliers with exceed MOA. Lot A began my Vudoo match ammo until I ran out last fall.

While visiting family this summer I purchased samples of X-Act, Polar Biathlon and Biathlon Xtreme. The results of X-Act testing are in the first post, the Biathlon Xtreme in another thread (https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...o-sub-sonic-on-the-22lr.7120925/post-11232965), and I've purchased enough to last several years.

I also got the remaining 3.5 boxes of Center-X Lot A from my brother and shot it in the CRPS Eastern Finale where I had my best finish of the season. It may have been the ammo, the confidence the ammo instilled, or several of the top shooters in the region missing the event (IIRC for Worlds), but I like to think it was the ammo

 

[jgraves]

Because of the yaw. Initial angle of bullet yaw after it excits the muzzle is a parameter that deviates from shot to shot (within certian limits). Therefore, small initial differences in yaw affect trajectories, even thou everything else is kept the same. How big can these effect be at 100 meters range? For some low velocity ammo, the 10 shot group is the size of 2 caliber. At least that was the result of simuli for .32 acp . IIRC at 100 m, 10 shot group for such bullet is expected to be about 0.6" dia just because of yawing effects. I don't know about 22 LR

This is a little bit tangential to the direction I wanted the thread to go (what are shooters doing to produce the smallest 22LR groups consistantly), it is still interesting. This sounds like a published study. Do you have a link?

 

[bulletbluesky]

This is a little bit tangential to the direction I wanted the thread to go (what are shooters doing to produce the smallest 22LR groups consistantly), it is still interesting. This sounds like a published study. Do you have a link?

That was an article published in one of the magazines I used to read ( maybe Advances in Aerodynamics or something like that). I wish I could remember more details. I remember it required a lot of computer power to simulate that. If I manage to dig it out, I'll post the reference

 

[jgraves]

If I look at JBell's threads and use a 0.75MOA average for 10 shots and an approximately equivalent 0.60 MOA for 5 shots as a criteria, I get these results:

5x10 Average:
1: 0.770” / 0.735 MOA (jbell- Anschutz Benchmark 10/29/19)
2: 0.770” / 0.735 MOA (Reubenski- Vudoo V-22 4/30/20)

v1 6x5 Average:
1: 0.347"/0.272 MOA (yoteman Anschutz 64 MPR 8/30/13, post 21: 110 yards)
2: 0.490"/0.468 MOA (Astro 40x/Benchmark, 10/22/13, post 272)
3: 0.493"/0.471 MOA (JG26_Irish Rem 540XR 7/28/14 post 694)
4: 0.617"/0.589 MOA (jbell- Sauer 200TR 9/15/13, post 111)

v3 6x5 Average:
1: 0.492” / 0.470 MOA (RainierRimfire- Vudoo Ridgeback 7/4/19)
2: 0.581 / 0.558 MOA (10ring1- Vudoo V22 9/20/19)
3: 0.601” / 0.574 MOA (jbell- Vudoo V-22 6/16/19)
4: 0.610” / 0.583 MOA (simpletoms- H&R Model 12 Penrod 12/22/19)
5: 0.615" / 0.587 MOA (jbell- Anschutz 1827B / Benchmark barrel 9/28/18)

v4 6x5 Average:
1: 0.466” / 0.445 MOA (Rimfireshooter99- Stiller 2500X Killough Build 12/29/20)
2: 0.527” / 0.503 MOA (Padom- Zermatt RimX Krieger 6/12/20)
3: 0.542” / 0.518 MOA (Steelhead- Vudoo V-22 4/26/20)
4: 0.554” / 0.529 MOA (learjet- Vudoo V-22 5/26/20)
5: 0.559” / 0.524 MOA (Kevin1- Vudoo V-22 12/5/20)
6: 0.570” / 0.544 MOA (Cuzz- Vudoo V-22 6/1/20)
7: 0.571” / 0.545 MOA (simpletoms- H&R model 12 Penrod build 4/19/20)
8: 0.583“ / 0.557 MOA (reubenski- Zermatt RimX Shilen 6/1/20)
9: 0.583” / 0.557 MOA (Rimfireshooter99- Anschutz 1903 SBR 8/28/20)
10: 0.586“ / 0.560 MOA (RainerRimfire- Vudoo V-22 5/17/20)
11: 0.592” / 0.565 MOA (padom- Zermatt Rim X Keystone Green Mountain 5/13/20)
12: 0.646” / 0.576 MOA (barronian-Sauer 200 TR 3/30/20) *100 meters

2021 6x5 Average:
1: 0.447” / 0.427 MOA (Rimfireshooter99- KSS 2500X 10/8/21)
2: 0.520” / 0.497 MOA (simpletoms- Penrod H&R Model 12 1/2/21)
3: 0.529” / 0.505 MOA (learjet- Vudoo V-22 11/18/21)
4: 0.558” / 0.533 MOA (10ring1- Vudoo V-22S Shilen 12/17/21)
5: 0.564“ / 0.539 MOA (drglock- Zermatt RimX Green Mountain 7/9/21)
6: 0.592” / 0.541 MOA (Barronian- Sauer 200TR 11/27/21) *100 meters
7: 0.587” / 0.561 MOA (Krob95- Vudoo V-22 2/4/21)
8: 0.588” / 0.562 MOA (jbell- Vudoo V-22 22” 8/9/21)
9: 0.601“ / 0.574 MOA (357Max- Bergara B14R 6/13/21)

2022 6x5 Average:
1: 0.527” / 0.503 MOA (BisSilent- Rim X Lothar Walther 9/8/22)
2: 0.561” / 0.536 MOA (Dr. Glock- RimX Green Mountain 5/10/22) *indoors*

I've posted a couple entries over the years and none of mine are in this group of exceptional performances.

My general approach to entries or shooting groups is as follows.
- have a lot of quality ammo which is know to shoot reasonably well in that rifle. I don't do any inspection or sorting of ammo within that lot. I will usually exclude a round if I drop it on the bench or have a feeding issue.
- install either my 10-50 Sightron or 7-35 Nightforce on the rifle and use full magnification. I'm not sure it helps with group size compared to 24x but it gives confidence and I can generally see all impacts, even on black backgrounds with the target shaded.
- shoot from a field style bipod and rear bag.
- shoot from the mag if applicable. I may load only enough for 1 group or shoot multiple groups from a full loaded mag. I won't intentionally introduce a mag change within a group unless I have a feeding issue. All rounds are fired on target. I don't load 6 and dump the first round in the dirt or anything similar.
- I have only attempted to use wind flags during this summer's ammo test. My 100 yard range has a covered firing line, berms on both sides, 3 or 4 lanes (guessing ~40' wide) and mowed grass. There are bushes and tall grass on the berms and treetops visible past the berms. My experience with flags was showed the wind at the firing line, mid-range and at the target was frequently different.
- I do not attempt to compensate for wind but will not shoot during gusts (that I am aware of).
- I ensure the barrel is seasoned with the same (or similar) ammo I'm about to shoot and generally will warm up off target. For instance, I started my X-Act testing with a clean barrel, shot a half box of SK Std+ (same lube) at clay fragments on the berm before shooting X-Act for record. I also shot a half box of Polar Biathlon (old lot) before shooting the new lots for record. I didn't have any old Biathlon Xtreme but started with a clean barrel and recorded the order of groups so I could exclude any seasoning effects.
- in the case of my 6x5 entries, I've usually been at the range for some other reason, and make one attempt at the target, per rifle, per distance. I may have attempted and not posted a poor target, or shot more than one target per rifle, but I haven't shot this challange many times. I view it as a performance benchmark, rather than a competition.
- I've replaced the factory SR-22 barrel with a KIDD, but all my other rifles are as initially built. I think I've selected quality but I have not tested multiple identical (or even similar) rifles or components to find that magic one the gods of production tolerances smiled upon.

I see potential to improve in almost every point I just made.

Where are you approaching things differently and what are you achieving for results? I'm interested to hear from those at the pointy end of the feild, but also those that have been trying to improve their groups but just don't know how.

 

[obx22]

That was an article published in one of the magazines I used to read ( maybe Advances in Aerodynamics or something like that). I wish I could remember more details. I remember it required a lot of computer power to simulate that. If I manage to dig it out, I'll post the reference

Sounds similar to

How do bullets fly?

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Sounds similar to

How do bullets fly?

Thanks for that Link Obx, I enjoyed reading that. Another good one that will interest the OP is http://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

To the OP, I was able to get some consistent .1 and .0 groups at 50 yards, indoors, shot off a rtb one piece rest with a good lot of center-x during tuner testing. This is about as close as you can come to eliminating the shooter as the only thing I touched was the trigger blade with consistent rearward pulls without side loading. That experience is documented in one of the 6x5 version threads of jbell. The couple of times I tuned it for different lots took about 3 hours and about 350-400 rounds each time as I did not use either the hopewell or purdy methods and just started shooting 5 round groups and changing tuner settings between groups.

It was interesting during testing to watch the groups move around the POA and shrink or enlarge in size.

different lots of center x required different tune settings. This set up was used for outdoor ARA rimfire benchrest competition. I was never able to really get anywhere near the tuner session accuracy during outdoor matches as colorado wind is gusting and never ending. I did win a overall state championship one year, but only because of persistence as I attended every match and aggregate score accumulated won the points race for the state. Individual match wins were rare, but did get a couple here and there. Once ARA created the factory stock class and based it on the stupidest parameter ever, MSRP , I gave up on that organization and got out of benchrest all together.

My findings on tuner use were that it could take up/eliminate some fps differences within a narrow speed band. So with good ammo with an extreme spread of 30 to maybe 40 fps on the high end and std dev of up to 10-15 the tuner worked decently as long as outside temps were within 10-15 degrees of testing temp. ( you are not going to make crappy ammo any better with a tuner. I tried, crappy ammo still sucked). Colder temps in the morning caused fliers and needed the tuner to move .015-.035“ to get group sizes back to normal. This was way to much to keep track of as temps changed during the day and fighting changing wind conditions, another reason I got out of the discipline. Another problem with tuning is it is good for one set distance, vary that and your tune goes out the window. I kind of envision a huge sine wave running down the range with the tuned nodes at the zero points and increased error everywhere else on the wave.

After benchrest I moved on to steel prs/ nrl style matches and put more effort into standing offhand silhouette matches that I had been dabbling in for a few years. I also run a monthly 22 steel prairie dog match with ranges from 35-200 yards.

I got tired of reading how awesome every keyboard commando could do “half MOA all day long, as long as I do my part” and built a target to test that.

MOA challenge target is a 12x14” steel plate with a 1” hole in the center. Behind the hole is a paddle sw that activates a 5 second flashing LED on top, basically an electromechanical version of magnetospeed‘s electronic target hit indicator.
I will set up an after match side challenge using this target and a 2”-1/4” KYL. Usually have the KYL somewhere between 65-90 yards and the 1” challenge target between 100-200 yards. Competitors get ten rounds and must clear the first 4-8 gongs of the KYL (depends how gusty the wind is) and remaining rounds get to shoot at the 1” challenge target. My goal is to have the KYL knock out about half the competitors and the 1” be a hard, but doable target for the remainder.

Having the 1” challenge target at 200 yards has only resulted in 3 hits in 3 years. Experience has taught me that having the 1” target between 100-120 yards is the sweet spot for the 1-4 shots the KYL clearers have remaining. 1” target has a 15-30% success rate at these yardages. Last months COF was clear first 7 of KYL at 90 yards, 1” at 100. Two competitors cleared the challenge.

Too be fair, I did have one competitor @jefe’sdope clear an older challenge where I suspended a 1” diameter at 200 yards. He center punched a 1” target at 200 with his first shot, blasting it through the backing into the berm somewhere, we looked for 20 minutes and couldn’t find it, that would have been an awesome trophy!


Point is that rimfire ammo is so inconsistent from round to round in FPS that even the high end ammo isn’t going to produce the small groups you want at long range. Ever since a rimfire priming plant blew up a number of years ago, manufacturers changed their priming systems for safety and consistency suffered because of that

 

[ToddM]

The other thing is many of the precision 22 crowd is used to shooting centerfire rifles outdoors, getting super small groups even with light winds.

With a standard velocity 22 LR round, 10 mph of wind is ~4.5" of drift.

That means even 2 mph is ~0.5" drift. So if you have a +/- 2mph wind, and you're not accounting for it, even if your rifle/ammo setup is capable of 0.5" groups at 100 yards, the wind can open those groups up to 1.5" and that's just a +/- 2mph wind something most of us would never even bother to try and adjust/time.

That same +/- 2mph wind on a 6.5 cm is only pushing it 0.12". (~0.6" per 10mph wind at 100).

 

[BowChamp]

Here are my results shooting the JBell 6x5 100yds.....it was actually shot at 102yds.

100 Yards - Group Ave.
1) 0.614 - Bowchamp - Vudoo V22S/SK Semi-Auto/Lapua Long Range on 10/13/23
100 Yards - Best Group
1) 0.396 - Bowchamp - Vudoo V22S/SK Lapua Long Range on 10/13/23

100 Yards - Group Ave.
1) 0.675 - Bowchamp - Vudoo V22s/Eley SABP on 9/2/23
100 Yards - Best Group
1) 0.455 - Bowchamp - Vudoo V22s/Eley SABP on 9/2/23


What is the number one thing I couldn't do without.....winds flags...........shooting the condition make all the difference for me. Shooting randomly into the wind gets me nowhere. My equipment works very good for me and I can really see the wind effects on my shots. My point of aim changed a lot while shooting each group. Mostly my wild fliers are missed calls on the conditions.

 

[jgraves]

I'll have to review the links some other time, I can't afford to get sucked down the rabbit hole this late when I have to be at the office tomorrow morning.

ToddM, BowChamp, wind is certainly one of my weaknesses. Running a flag (surveyors tape hanging from my CF tripod at mid-range) was certainly an eye opening experience. I'm planning a (couple) range days with flags next spring to focus on predicting impacts due to wind (or adjusting POI to compensate for wind).

BowChamp, nice shooting. Can you go into any more detail on how you use wind flags? How many do you set out? How to you weight their relative importance? Do you try to shoot one condition for the entire group or vary your POI for each shot in response to conditions? Do you think you are getting the best results you're able too, or are compromising your group size for some other factor (time, ease of setup, etc)? Also, your username sounds like it could belong to someone I know / occasionally shoot with.

Tiger_Shilone, tuners are something I've never tried, but have been curious about on occasion. I've heard a wide range of opinions from shooters who have tried or use them, with your experience being somewhere in the middle. Personally I'm skeptical about achieving a real benefit for field shooting and afraid of the cost/effort to prove you've made an improvement, even in a BR setting. In my X-Act testing, my 5x10 average with and without a fairly heavy muzzle brake was 0.901 vs 0.908 MOA.

The challenge target is also interesting. I'm confident I could get a couple hits at 100 but also that I could burn a brick trying to get 10 in a row with any wind variability.

 

[jbell]

I think the majority of us are all saying the same thing, ammo and wind are the limiting factor in rimfire, big shocker I know. But that pretty much sums it up. I do feel that rimfire is more difficult to shoot well than a centerfire from a shooters perspective, similar to how a gas gun requires better fundamentals than a bolt gun.

 

[bulletbluesky]

Sounds similar to

How do bullets fly?

That's a good intro read for anyone starting to study physics of projectile's flight.
More about that you can find in "Modern Exterior Ballistics" by Robert McCoy.
However, I don't see anything there related to non-linear aerodynamics simuls

 

[bulletbluesky]

To the OP, I was able to get some consistent .1 and .0 groups at 50 yards, indoors, shot off a rtb one piece rest with a good lot of center-x during tuner testing. This is about as close as you can come to eliminating the shooter as the only thing I touched was the trigger blade with consistent rearward pulls without side loading. That experience is documented in one of the 6x5 version threads of jbell. The couple of times I tuned it for different lots took about 3 hours and about 350-400 rounds each time as I did not use either the hopewell or purdy methods and just started shooting 5 round groups and changing tuner settings between groups.

It was interesting during testing to watch the groups move around the POA and shrink or enlarge in size.

View attachment 8276249

These are relevant and very valuable tests. Nice gear!
Consistent 50 yards groups of 0.1 size show how good 22LR can be!
Have you tried the same setup at 100 (104) yards?

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Have you tried the same setup at 100 (104) yards?

I have not as the local 100 yd indoor ranges are all member only and a good distance to drive. Not going to drop $$ on a membership I won’t use. I also got out of benchrest and silo shooting does not require extreme accuracy.

A few years ago I did shoot a few 100 yard targets after an outside ARA match and recall that I wasn’t impressed enough to continue further, but the environmental factors are no where near as calm as a controlled environment indoors.

As I stated earlier a tuner tunes to one node at a fixed distance, using positive positive compensation. I would be curious to stretch out range and see where the next node appears yardage wise. Barrel harmonics is an interesting but deep rabbit hole out of my comfortable area of comprehension

 

[BowChamp]

ToddM, BowChamp, wind is certainly one of my weaknesses. Running a flag (surveyors tape hanging from my CF tripod at mid-range) was certainly an eye opening experience. I'm planning a (couple) range days with flags next spring to focus on predicting impacts due to wind (or adjusting POI to compensate for wind).

BowChamp, nice shooting. Can you go into any more detail on how you use wind flags? How many do you set out? How to you weight their relative importance? Do you try to shoot one condition for the entire group or vary your POI for each shot in response to conditions? Do you think you are getting the best results you're able too, or are compromising your group size for some other factor (time, ease of setup, etc)? Also, your username sounds like it could belong to someone I know / occasionally shoot with.

Thank you Sir, I'd be glad to share details with you. Seeing thing helps me sometimes so I'll start with a picture of my setup....rifle and flags.

Vudoo V22S, 26 1/4" Shilen Ratchet Barrel, Harrell's Tuner, Bob's Tube, Bix-n-Andy Competition Trigger @ .3 oz., MDT ACC Premier Chassis, Ergo TDX-0 Tactical Suregrip, Bag Bullet Bagrider, Leupold 40X Competition Scope, Burris XTR Signature Rings, Area 419 Weighted ARCA Rail, Internal and External forearm Weights, 5H Atlas Bipod. Total weight of complete rifle...just over 28lbs.

Graham Rimfire Ball Wind Flags....they come with surveyors tape for tails and I swapped them out for a set of sail tails. I also have a Graham Uppy Downy...It's the third one out. What you see in the picture is a 50 yd set for me and it goes 5yds., 10yds., 17yds., 25yds. and 35 yds.. This gives me a total of 5 flags and I'm going to be adding one more flag to my set.

As far as relative importance.......there are no exacts. The importance changes from day to day and range to range. I find it part of learning to read the conditions present when I'm shooting. Only way to tell for sure is to shoot a couple sighters and get a feel for what is going on. I started shooting over my Graham flags about a year ago and shoot about 1200rds a month. Shooting all kinds of crazy wind while watching my flags is how I learn.

I shoot several conditions while competing and shooting groups. My competitions shooting is timed so I can only wait so long for a shot. My point of aim will change with the conditions if the condition stays long enough.. Sometimes I will get 5 or 6 shots before it changes....sometimes only one.

I will say this about ammo....The fliers I get are mostly me missing a change in the condition and some ammo shoots better in windy conditions. If conditions are calm even my cheaper ammo shoots pretty good at 50 and 100yds..

Is he from the southeast?? I got this name from shooting archery.

Hope all this rambling makes sense. Any more questions, just ask.

Here's a link telling how I got started with my Vudoo V22S.

Vudoo V-22S....Finally got it!!

www.rimfirecentral.com

 

[jgraves]

Is he from the southeast?? I got this name from shooting archery.

No, he's Canadian but competes internationally, primarily in the US. He occasionally shoots rimfire PRS events with us during the off season.

 

[jgraves]

Sounds similar to

How do bullets fly?

I'm working my way through this tonight (and probably for the next couple evenings).

 

[justin amateur]

Sub-moa groups aren't a big deal. I call them random acts of accuracy.
I can produce sub-moa groups, but producing sub-moa groups
that don't wander around relative to point of aim is another thing entirely.

I've had youngsters at the local range show me their results
and claim sub-moa all day long and no problem hitting the center at 100 yards.
Just have to dial those crosshairs to the center of those 5 and 10 shot groups
and then every shot thereafter will hit in the black, no problem at all.

Really? Just dial that crosshair to the center of the last good group and no problem punching center?

Show me.....



Click on the top right corner of the image for the download option.
Print on 8.5x11 paper, full size, 100% then check the left side border.
It should measure 10 inches. Warm up by shooting groups, adjust y'er scope,
then see if'n you can keep the next 25 shots inside the moa circles shown on the target.
There's a 50 yard moa and a 100 yard moa circle for y'er entertainment.

It ain't so easy as you'd think, eh?

 

[nockhunter]

Thanks for that Link Obx, I enjoyed reading that. Another good one that will interest the OP is http://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

To the OP, I was able to get some consistent .1 and .0 groups at 50 yards, indoors, shot off a rtb one piece rest with a good lot of center-x during tuner testing. This is about as close as you can come to eliminating the shooter as the only thing I touched was the trigger blade with consistent rearward pulls without side loading. That experience is documented in one of the 6x5 version threads of jbell. The couple of times I tuned it for different lots took about 3 hours and about 350-400 rounds each time as I did not use either the hopewell or purdy methods and just started shooting 5 round groups and changing tuner settings between groups.

It was interesting during testing to watch the groups move around the POA and shrink or enlarge in size.

View attachment 8276249

different lots of center x required different tune settings. This set up was used for outdoor ARA rimfire benchrest competition. I was never able to really get anywhere near the tuner session accuracy during outdoor matches as colorado wind is gusting and never ending. I did win a overall state championship one year, but only because of persistence as I attended every match and aggregate score accumulated won the points race for the state. Individual match wins were rare, but did get a couple here and there. Once ARA created the factory stock class and based it on the stupidest parameter ever, MSRP , I gave up on that organization and got out of benchrest all together.

My findings on tuner use were that it could take up/eliminate some fps differences within a narrow speed band. So with good ammo with an extreme spread of 30 to maybe 40 fps on the high end and std dev of up to 10-15 the tuner worked decently as long as outside temps were within 10-15 degrees of testing temp. ( you are not going to make crappy ammo any better with a tuner. I tried, crappy ammo still sucked). Colder temps in the morning caused fliers and needed the tuner to move .015-.035“ to get group sizes back to normal. This was way to much to keep track of as temps changed during the day and fighting changing wind conditions, another reason I got out of the discipline. Another problem with tuning is it is good for one set distance, vary that and your tune goes out the window. I kind of envision a huge sine wave running down the range with the tuned nodes at the zero points and increased error everywhere else on the wave.

After benchrest I moved on to steel prs/ nrl style matches and put more effort into standing offhand silhouette matches that I had been dabbling in for a few years. I also run a monthly 22 steel prairie dog match with ranges from 35-200 yards.

I got tired of reading how awesome every keyboard commando could do “half MOA all day long, as long as I do my part” and built a target to test that.

View attachment 8276256

MOA challenge target is a 12x14” steel plate with a 1” hole in the center. Behind the hole is a paddle sw that activates a 5 second flashing LED on top, basically an electromechanical version of magnetospeed‘s electronic target hit indicator.
I will set up an after match side challenge using this target and a 2”-1/4” KYL. Usually have the KYL somewhere between 65-90 yards and the 1” challenge target between 100-200 yards. Competitors get ten rounds and must clear the first 4-8 gongs of the KYL (depends how gusty the wind is) and remaining rounds get to shoot at the 1” challenge target. My goal is to have the KYL knock out about half the competitors and the 1” be a hard, but doable target for the remainder.

Having the 1” challenge target at 200 yards has only resulted in 3 hits in 3 years. Experience has taught me that having the 1” target between 100-120 yards is the sweet spot for the 1-4 shots the KYL clearers have remaining. 1” target has a 15-30% success rate at these yardages. Last months COF was clear first 7 of KYL at 90 yards, 1” at 100. Two competitors cleared the challenge.

Too be fair, I did have one competitor @jefesdope clear an older challenge where I suspended a 1” diameter at 200 yards. He center punched a 1” target at 200 with his first shot, blasting it through the backing into the berm somewhere, we looked for 20 minutes and couldn’t find it, that would have been an awesome trophy!


Point is that rimfire ammo is so inconsistent from round to round in FPS that even the high end ammo isn’t going to produce the small groups you want at long range. Ever since a rimfire priming plant blew up a number of years ago, manufacturers changed their priming systems for safety and consistency suffered because of that

Could you give me some more info on your setup?

Thanks
Mike

 

[jgraves]

I worked my way through the remainder of How do bullets fly? and http://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm, as well as a couple links from those sites. I had read Varmint Al's page years ago. I also found the Hornady Ballistics Playlist quite interesting.

BowChamp, thanks for the photos and explanation. Based on several posts and PM, I really have to invest in a set of wind flags, even if I can only use them for testing and as a training aid.

Justin, I've saved your target and will try it, at least at 50 yards, the next time I'm at my local outdoor club. Can I assume scoring is center of hole on the line (true 1 MOA circles)? If scoring is best edge and I wait 5 months for a nice day, 100 yards might not be too embarrassing.

I have a similar set of targets with 1, 1.5, 2 or 3 MOA colored dots surrounded by a 0.223 diameter hairline, scored worst edge. I use them for positional drills at 20 yards. The aiming point is scaled to represent a target at distance, without the 1 MOA bonus of a 22 bullet diameter at 20 yards if scoring best edge. Even at 20x, the hairline isn't really visible at 20 yards, or at least not enough to be distracting.

 

[jgraves]

These are shot off a 6' stepladder, mostly 2 shot per rung and arrow indicates if I was going up or down the ladder. Top of the 1.5 MOA target was starting 1 yard behind ladder, get into position and fire 1 shot within a 10 or 15s par time. Support side means entirely left handed. This really highlighted a weakness in my position on the 2nd rung, kneeing introduced too much vertical wobble so I was better off to take an extra couple seconds and build a seated position.

 

[justin amateur]

Center of hole on the moa circle is acceptable JG.

I have yet to produce a 25 shot target at 100 yards,
with any caliber rimfire cartridge, that keeps all the shots in the scoring zone.
Wind judgement and ammo quality kick my butt.
Doesn't stop me from trying.

 

[bulletbluesky]

I'm working my way through this tonight (and probably for the next couple evenings).

I've just noticed there are examples of graphs on this site relating actual measured yawing motion of some bullets.

.38 wadcutter:
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig26.htm
9 mm FMJ Parabellum:
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig23.htm

These are closely related to swerving motion of the bullets (motion of the bullets center of mass perpendicular to the point mass trajectory). I guess 22 LR is more similar to 9 mm.

Typical high velocity rifle bullet:
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig18.htm

 

[JG26_Irish]

Look at the 10sh 100m groups when you go to the Lapua test center. Most are in the 25mm range and 14-11mm at 50m. I can hit a 1/2” dumdum sucker at 100y consistently but never 100% with that ammo and rifle combo. But, to do so only requires about 1 moa accuracy. I had one set of sub 1/2 moa groups at 100y in v1 of the 6x5 but it was with a rifle and ammo combo that was superb. It won the inaugural ARA factory championship. But buying the same brand of ammo s not enough. Today, I have 10+ lots of Lapua laying around. One shoots good in one rifle and another shoots good in a different rifle and if the temp and humidity change they might not shoot at all. I believe I can shoot 1/2 moa sometimes but not all day every day. Outdoor variables are a challenge.

Example: I shot a long range KYL match a few months ago. The longest plate rack was at 250y. There was a 5” square practice plate that I was checking my dope on. I placed 5 aimed shots on that plate that could be covered by a 50 cent piece, but the group was in the lower left corner. If I had tried this on the 1 moa plate, most of them would have missed without adjusting my poa. The precision was there but the accuracy was lacking. Two hrs later when the temps dropped, the dope changes. Betteradjust or you will still miss the mark. Off and on, I can hit the plates, lol

 

[jgraves]

From this latest exploration of 22lr accuracy, my conclusion is the exceptional rifles with the best matched lots of top quality ammo are consistently around 1/2 MOA at 100 yards for 10 shots in ideal conditions. Even within very high quality rifles and ammo, in fixtures and tunnels, these are not common.

How does this apply to my shooting, which is mostly PRS style events at the moment?

This thread, and many hours of other reading and videos, have reinforced that I have no clue about shooting in the wind. I identified this as a weakness after shooting a couple NRL22 (or similar events). I have never paid much attention to competitive bench rest shooting. I will be spending a few range sessions next summer with wind flags, shooting paper for score, as a focused wind training. Possibly even with my PCP in the back yard.

As a side effect, I'm at least going to explore different ways to measure my results during practice and accuracy testing. I'm not certain exactly what I'll settle on, but I'm fairly certain it will include centroid to aim point, mean radius and typically more than 10 shots in a (composite) group. I've downloaded a demo of OnTarget TDS and am planning a trip to the indoor range later this week to collect a sample data set.

 

[Daniel G. Banting]

This has been one of the most enlightening and informative threads I have read in a very long time. Reality is often too rare a commodity. Thanks to the OP and all participants.

 

[Seymour Fish]

I have not as the local 100 yd indoor ranges are all member only and a good distance to drive. Not going to drop $$ on a membership I won’t use. I also got out of benchrest and silo shooting does not require extreme accuracy.

A few years ago I did shoot a few 100 yard targets after an outside ARA match and recall that I wasn’t impressed enough to continue further, but the environmental factors are no where near as calm as a controlled environment indoors. My limited experience, moving from 50 to 100 requires 2 clicks on a Harrell; Suhl original factory bbl. 100 setting seems to hold up at 200. And a Beggs Wind Probe is of benefit.

As I stated earlier a tuner tunes to one node at a fixed distance, using positive positive compensation. I would be curious to stretch out range and see where the next node appears yardage wise. Barrel harmonics is an interesting but deep rabbit hole out of my comfortable area of comprehension

 

[Williwaw]

As a side effect, I'm at least going to explore different ways to measure my results during practice and accuracy testing. I'm not certain exactly what I'll settle on, but I'm fairly certain it will include centroid to aim point, mean radius and typically more than 10 shots in a (composite) group. I've downloaded a demo of OnTarget TDS and am planning a trip to the indoor range later this week to collect a sample data set.

I bet you like OnTarget. Like most I started out shooting groups as a means to compare my results and measure my progress. Eventually I paid heed to the shoot for score/hit what yer aiming at crowd and started shooting F Class. The eight bulls with five shots each analyzed in OnTarget yields eight groups, score and a 40 shot composite.

 

[jgraves]

I bet you like OnTarget. ...

The concept has huge potential, particularly the automatic detection of shot location relative to aim point with the predefined targets. I'm hopeful the auto shot detection works well.

I've played with a target image from my lot testing with manually identified shot locations and exporting to csv/excel for further analysis. There's many ways to slice the data once you have coordinates for each shot and ignore extreme spread of a 3, 5 or 10 shot group.

 

[Tiger_Shilone]

Wind keeps being brought up and I was assuming everybody knows how crosswinds affect bullet trajectories. That assumption is probably erroneous. Crosswinds have both a horizontal and vertical effect on the bullet path. There are several ballistic wind charts out there, some with conflicting information. I like to use this one by Landy, who is a well known rimfire benchrest shooter. This chart tracks pretty close with what I have experienced when I shot rimfire benchrest and the slanted line is easily to visualize in memory when you don’t have a paper copy in front of you.

 

[jbell]

Wind keeps being brought up and I was assuming everybody knows how crosswinds affect bullet trajectories. That assumption is probably erroneous. Crosswinds have both a horizontal and vertical effect on the bullet path. There are several ballistic wind charts out there, some with conflicting information. I like to use this one by Landy, who is a well known rimfire benchrest shooter. This chart tracks pretty close with what I have experienced when I shot rimfire benchrest and the slanted line is easily to visualize in memory when you don’t have a paper copy in front of you.

View attachment 8283577

Agreed, that is a good chart.

 

[jgraves]

Although certainly tangential to the original post, I've been exploring OnTarget TDS and statistics beyond group size based on maximum center to center measurements. I'm not sure what I've learn applicable to comparing my groups to others on-line and I'm not sure what I'll settle on as performance metrics, but I am unlikely to use max CTC as a primary metric for ammo selection in the future.

I shot several of the OnTarget pdf's (printed on 67 lb paper) last weekend to try the auto shot detection, which I feel is the primary advantage of TDS verses GRT that I used earlier. I was initially disappointed in the auto shot detection of TDS but after several attempts, I found backing the target with brightly colored paper, scanning at 600dpi and adjusting the brightness generated acceptable results. I'd be happy to hear other tips and best practices for using this feature.

This was the only target which detected most shots without a backer, and really illustrates the power of composite groups. For reference the target was shot at ~19.1 yards, from 4 positions on a tank trap with an OG gamechanger, changing position each shot. 25 shots were support side as I was getting bored after dumping several mags at it.

There appears to be a lot to learn from both a system precision and shooter training perspective just from the presented calculated stats, with more to be gained from further analysis in Excel and combining with chrono data.

I also collected 2x 35 shot targets with muzzle and ~18.2 yard velocity but only compiled the raw data into an excel sheet so far. I don't expect to learn much about system precision from these targets (random lot of SK Std+ shot standing from tripod) but it's a data set to explore and think about what parameters can be extracted (BC variation, POI vs muzzle and downrange velocity, etc)

Jeff

 

[jbell]

Although certainly tangential to the original post, I've been exploring OnTarget TDS and statistics beyond group size based on maximum center to center measurements. I'm not sure what I've learn applicable to comparing my groups to others on-line and I'm not sure what I'll settle on as performance metrics, but I am unlikely to use max CTC as a primary metric for ammo selection in the future.

I shot several of the OnTarget pdf's (printed on 67 lb paper) last weekend to try the auto shot detection, which I feel is the primary advantage of TDS verses GRT that I used earlier. I was initially disappointed in the auto shot detection of TDS but after several attempts, I found backing the target with brightly colored paper, scanning at 600dpi and adjusting the brightness generated acceptable results. I'd be happy to hear other tips and best practices for using this feature.

This was the only target which detected most shots without a backer, and really illustrates the power of composite groups. For reference the target was shot at ~19.1 yards, from 4 positions on a tank trap with an OG gamechanger, changing position each shot. 25 shots were support side as I was getting bored after dumping several mags at it.

View attachment 8288834

View attachment 8288841

There appears to be a lot to learn from both a system precision and shooter training perspective just from the presented calculated stats, with more to be gained from further analysis in Excel and combining with chrono data.

I also collected 2x 35 shot targets with muzzle and ~18.2 yard velocity but only compiled the raw data into an excel sheet so far. I don't expect to learn much about system precision from these targets (random lot of SK Std+ shot standing from tripod) but it's a data set to explore and think about what parameters can be extracted (BC variation, POI vs muzzle and downrange velocity, etc)

Jeff

Very cool, this is really interesting. I never played around with software like this before but I may now…

 

[bulletbluesky]

Beside muzzle velocity, it would be useful to measure constancy of the exterior ballistics.
You can do that with 2 chronos. One set at say 5 yards, another set at 49 yards, in front of 50 yard target.
Test various ammo brands, and various lots

 

[jgraves]

Data from targets 1 and 2, including chrono at muzzle (chassis mounted Magnetospeed) and ~18.2 yards (CED M2).

Shot	Distance	Center X	Center Y	Point X	Point Y	Muzzle Velocity	DownRange Velocity	Difference
1​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.005​	-0.098​	1033​	1013​	20​
2​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.027​	-0.093​	1017​	992.5​	24.5​
3​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.045​	0.043​	1015​	994.4​	20.6​
4​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.055​	-0.035​	1025​	1002​	23​
5​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.065​	-0.032​	1023​	998.6​	24.4​
6​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.008​	0.02​	1018​	989.7​	28.3​
7​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.028​	0.022​	1036​	1004​	32​
8​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.027​	0.012​	1049​	1022​	27​
9​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.06​	-0.032​	1018​	989.4​	28.6​
10​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.067​	-0.035​	1026​	996.6​	29.4​
11​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.05​	-0.055​	1026​	1000​	26​
12​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.048​	0.017​	1015​	987.6​	27.4​
13​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.023​	-0.015​	1040​	1016​	24​
14​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.093​	-0.148​	1004​	979.9​	24.1​
15​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.072​	0.008​	1027​	1002​	25​
16​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.025​	0.03​	1022​	1000​	22​
17​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.015​	0.032​	1040​	No Data	#VALUE!​
18​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.052​	-0.005​	1063​	1035​	28​
19​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.02​	-0.045​	1038​	1011​	27​
20​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.088​	-0.038​	1037​	1009​	28​
21​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.057​	-0.123​	1018​	991.2​	26.8​
22​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.132​	-0.053​	1018​	988.4​	29.6​
23​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.028​	-0.18​	1001​	968.1​	32.9​
24​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.112​	-0.073​	1044​	1016​	28​
25​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.01​	-0.028​	1045​	1007​	38​
26​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.074​	-0.046​	1045​	1015​	30​
27​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.055​	0.019​	1019​	989.7​	29.3​
28​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.065​	-0.014​	1028​	1001​	27​
29​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.055​	-0.047​	1038​	1011​	27​
30​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.107​	-0.056​	1041​	1012​	29​
31​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0​	-0.005​	986​	965.7​	20.3​
32​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.028​	-0.056​	1011​	984.9​	26.1​
33​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.005​	0.028​	1024​	1001​	23​
34​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	0.097​	-0.037​	1009​	980.6​	28.4​
35​	19.1​	0.001​	-0.032​	-0.01​	0.009​	1041​	1018​	23​

Shot	Distance	Center Y	Point X	Point Y	Muzzle Velocity	Downrange Velocity	Difference
1​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.057​	0​	1047​	1015​	32​
2​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.01​	-0.085​	1022​	982​	40​
3​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.053​	0.008​	1055​	1031​	24​
4​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.052​	-0.008​	1037​	1006​	31​
5​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.125​	0.03​	1048​	1018​	30​
6​	19.1​	-0.012​	0​	0.107​	1040​	1013​	27​
7​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.027​	0.002​	1005​	984.5​	20.5​
8​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.162​	-0.037​	1041​	1011​	30​
9​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.055​	0.053​	1034​	1008​	26​
10​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.007​	-0.11​	1062​	1037​	25​
11​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.065​	-0.057​	1042​	1014​	28​
12​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.057​	-0.035​	1037​	No Data	#VALUE!​
13​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.035​	-0.056​	1065​	1039​	26​
14​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.002​	0.033​	1047​	1029​	18​
15​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.068​	0.05​	1022​	1007​	15​
16​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.03​	-0.018​	1044​	1013​	31​
17​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.052​	-0.013​	1062​	1027​	35​
18​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.085​	-0.092​	1018​	989.1​	28.9​
19​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.025​	0.023​	1046​	1018​	28​
20​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.075​	0.057​	1047​	1014​	33​
21​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.092​	-0.043​	1053​	No Data	#VALUE!​
22​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.008​	-0.028​	1057​	1030​	27​
23​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.09​	-0.002​	1040​	1011​	29​
24​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.098​	-0.018​	1076​	1046​	30​
25​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.098​	-0.093​	1031​	1002​	29​
26​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.064​	-0.042​	1028​	995.9​	32.1​
27​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.101​	0.11​	1041​	1013​	28​
28​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.05​	-0.11​	1004​	974.4​	29.6​
29​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.146​	-0.046​	1018​	989.5​	28.5​
30​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.128​	-0.082​	1068​	1039​	29​
31​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.12​	-0.059​	1057​	1028​	29​
32​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.078​	0.059​	1028​	998.5​	29.5​
33​	19.1​	-0.012​	0.028​	0.041​	1038​	1009​	29​
34​	19.1​	-0.012​	0​	0.041​	1041​	1012​	29​
35​	19.1​	-0.012​	-0.068​	0​	998​	969.3​	28.7​

I shot 25 through the M2 at the muzzle followed by 25 at 100 yards to get an average BC and both Magnetospeed and M2 at the muzzle to get a correlation (several fps slower as the M2 is not truly at the muzzle and a maximum a couple fps random noise). At 18 yards measurement error is significant (and possibly magnified by trying to minimize moving the M2, "No Data" were errors from shooting close to the skyscreen supports), but at 100 yards it will be much less.

Jeff

 

[bulletbluesky]

			​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
	​	​	​
​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​

I shot 25 through the M2 at the muzzle followed by 25 at 100 yards to get an average BC and both Magnetospeed and M2 at the muzzle to get a correlation (several fps slower as the M2 is not truly at the muzzle and a maximum a couple fps random noise). At 18 yards measurement error is significant (and possibly magnified by trying to minimize moving the M2, "No Data" were errors from shooting close to the skyscreen supports), but at 100 yards it will be much less.

Jeff

​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​

​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​		​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​

Some differences are dramatic to put it mildly. Measurement errors are there for sure. LabRadar would be of big help to rectify that. But it's some start anyway