1 MOA Out of the box

K

kwak

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Dec 13, 2010
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#1
I would be happy to have a 1 MOA at 100yards from a 22 cal rimfire out of the box.

What could I purchase for the least $ to get this MOA?

I have a NF 1x4 that I could throw on it when I use it.
Will that be enough scope?

It has been a while since I have shot any rifles at this distance and I need this to regain my skills.

 
#2
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

With todays technology, most anything made these days will do 1 MOA.

Cheapest caliber would be something in .223. Readily available and reasonably priced.
 
#3
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

.17 HMR
wink.gif
 
#4
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

As you posted in the rimfire forum, I'll assume you are looking to pick up a rimfire. Many 22lr rifles will do 1moa out of the box, you just need to find the right ammo and usually that means some match stuff. That said, it is still far cheaper than going to a centerfire.

Most guys seem to like the Savage or the CZ lines of rimfire.

I have a Savage TR in 22lr that usually shoots less than 1moa with good ammo.
 
#5
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

THe biggest issue with 100yds and 22lr is that the wind plays tricks with it.

When i shoot 22 from the bench, i hope and pray no one on the line so much as farts, because it will throw the group some
 
#7
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

I think it is pretty hit or miss with the affordable rifles. I have had a savage that would sometimes do MOA sometimes not. Also had a Marlin what would and one that wouldn't.

I think to be abolutely positive you need to spend some coin.

However seems like savage out of the box have a good overall rep as well as CZ. But both would be a gamble with better odds.

If it were me and I wanted to it cheap I would do a used Ruger then drop a Kidd barrel on it to be pretty sure of a MOA rifle.

However I did go with a Cooper and it has a accuracy guarantee of 1/4" at 50yds.
 
#8
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Do you want a bolt or a semi? If you want a semi buy a 10/22 and don't look back. There is a ton of aftermarket for them to make one tight.

For a bolt Savage and CZ seem to be the choices, maybe the Ruger 77/22. I bought a CZ 453 Varmint. I spent a little time over in the rimfirecentral.com forum and I found that the one thing most of the CZ guys had in common was that the rifle shoots w/o any real tweaking.
 
#9
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Last summer I built a 10/22 to shoot well at 100yards. the goal was 1 moa on windless days. In order to improve a stock 10/22 the bolt needed work to creat consistent iginition, it needed a match chamber, new barrel and that needed to be recrowned, and lastly a better trigger.
I found that this rifle was not extremely picky and would shoot several types of ammo well. I settled on Wolf match as being the best balance of accuracy vrs cost.

This past fall I wanted to see if I could build a bolt action trainer cheaper than what I spent on my 10/22. The only thing I have changed is bedding the stock and replacing the bottom metal. this was due to the original metal bending and the wood crushing when the take down screws were torqed. Nothing done to trigger, chamber or barrel yet.

Total cost on the Savage TR was $399(on sale at Sportsmans Wharehouse) plus $65 for aluminum pillars, bottom metal and bedding supplies. These costs do not include optics or the time I have invested in the project. This rifle was very picky, after testing 13 types ammo i found one that works, SK standard plus. It now shoots better groups than the 10/22. all other ammo had fliers 2-3 inches out of the group.

Both will shoot MOA at 100yards for 5 shot groups when i do my part. 25 shot groups at 100 yards are much more consistent from the Savage.

Here is a typical 25 shot group at 100 yards if the wind is NOT blowing, target shot prone, bipod, unsuported.
misc201019-Version2.jpg

 
#10
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

My CZ 453 will do it, and I don't have over 100 rounds through it yet. This is from bags or a Sinclair front rest, seated and using a Protektor owl ear rear bag. Couple of different types of ammo, both under an inch at 100, 5 AND 10 shot groups.
Use the set trigger all the time FWIW. Scope is a Nikon Monarch 3x9x40, don't know how much diff the 4 power max would make in your goal, but I think I would be close to same results running 4x max, I have shot several of my groups with the scope at 5x just FYI.

I've got around $550 in my rifle NIB, and $300ish in the scope, and the Talley rings I am running would probably cost around $70...don't need bases on my 453, the Talley's clamp right onto the rail.

A CZ 452 Varmint doesn't have the set trigger, but the trigger is adjustable, and the heavier contour barrel might suit you--with all else equal, it probably will deliver better bench results over a larger qty of rounds with the heavy barrel--they are around $450 NIB, they have them at Able Ammo right now, or did last night when I was looking around there. For the $, I think the CZ's will get you the most bang.

For the price, it has impressed me. Price notwithstanding, it's impressed some of my buddies!
 
#13
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Consider a Marlin 60 if you want a good shooting and cheap rifle. You can pick them up for almost nothing. I have had 3 of these things and without any mods at all can shoot right at 1 MOA. The CZ rifles will be slightly more accurate, and more expensive.
 
#15
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

My Savage, once tweeked a little shoots in the .1" range, 5 shots @ 50. I have not shot it at 100 yet, too darn cold (-22 this AM), but with the right wind, it should do well.
No need to spend more money on anything other than the Savage.
The 10-22's are nice, but cost a boatload of money to make them shoot really well, if on a budget, get a Savage and a Mueller 8 X 30 X 40 AO scope. Very fine retical. This combo will really put some small groups down range if you do your part and won't break the bank.

John K
 
#17
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmallBoreSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot these over the fall with the Marlin 917v with the factory stock. Bipod and rear bag.

10_10_10.jpg


100YardTarget2.jpg


50YardTarget2.jpg

</div></div>

Nice shooting, but you have to measure to the outside of the grease rings, you groups are a little bigger than what you have them measured at.
I went through the same thing, measured to the edge of the hole and got jumped on big time by a bunch of people for measuring wrong. I'm not jumping on you, been there, just for info only.
I measured the penney, it's about .100" bigger than it really is, then check the groups and your off by a bit, not a lot, but I find it's better to measure correctly, that way nobody gives you a bad time about it.

My Best, John K
 
#18
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Give me the money for an annie and I'll be your frind for life.
I can only afford the Savage, but she's are very good shooter. I miss really nice wood on the rifle. Gotta pay if you want the pretty wood and hand fitting.
Enjoy your annie, fine weapon, just out of my price range. Sucks to be retired.
As a retired gunsmith, I know just what it takes to improve the Savage. It shoots .3" better than stock after working on it.

John K
 
#19
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dksac2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I went through the same thing, measured to the edge of the hole and got jumped on big time by a bunch of people for measuring wrong.</div></div>

Groups are best measured by the centers of the holes.

Five .22 LR holes right on top of each other are a 0 MOA group (no spread), not a .22" group.
 
#20
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dksac2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SmallBoreSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
50YardTarget2.jpg

</div></div>

Nice shooting, but you have to measure to the outside of the grease rings, you groups are a little bigger than what you have them measured at.
I went through the same thing, measured to the edge of the hole and got jumped on big time by a bunch of people for measuring wrong. I'm not jumping on you, been there, just for info only.
I measured the penney, it's about .100" bigger than it really is, then check the groups and your off by a bit, not a lot, but I find it's better to measure correctly, that way nobody gives you a bad time about it.

My Best, John K </div></div>

You measure from the outside to outside and subtract a bullets diameter. Or you can measure from the outside edge to the inside edge of the furthest (same thing really... subtracting the diameter of a bullet.

SBS is just eyeballing his calipers in the center of the two furthest bullet holes. Still going to give the same reading.

I loaded the target with the penny into On Target and measured the group. I used the penny to set the measuring reference (.750"). It measures out to within one thousandth of what SBS measured. He is right on the mark. .461"

100yrd17HMR-1.jpg
 
#23
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

It takes a very good .22 rifle and top grade ammo (that the gun likes) to shoot 1” at 100. And a lot of skill to shoot it consistently. You might get close with a CZ, but it my take a little more money.
 
#24
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

CZ...imo. I have two and both do what you're asking right out of the box with Federal Match grade 22 cal. I has Zeiss Conquest scopes on them and it's almost like cheating. I also have two Ruger 10/22 that are fun to shoot with the large clips but they don't come close to the CZ's. Just my 2 cents.
 
#25
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: davwil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CZ...imo. I have two and both do what you're asking right out of the box with Federal Match grade 22 cal. I has Zeiss Conquest scopes on them and it's almost like cheating. I also have two Ruger 10/22 that are fun to shoot with the large clips but they don't come close to the CZ's. Just my 2 cents. </div></div>

Your 2 cents are just what I am looking for, thank you.

What power do your scopes have and what would you suggest?
 
#27
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

The OP specified a 22 cal rimfire, so to me that means 22 LR or 22 WMR. Out of curiousity, do you guys have a view as to what is typically more accurate between the two? I don't have a 22 mag rifle, but just wondered what gorup experience is.

I will say that I feel the advent of the 17 HMR is resulting in us having better choices in 22lr ammo, I hope to see some more 'high bc' 22 rimfire ammo--I wonder what is preventing the mfgs from offering more sleek profiles in this classic round??
 
#28
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be happy to have a 1 MOA at 100yards from a 22 cal rimfire out of the box.

What could I purchase for the least $ to get this MOA?

I have a NF 1x4 that I could throw on it when I use it.
Will that be enough scope?

It has been a while since I have shot any rifles at this distance and I need this to regain my skills.

</div></div>

Here is my 2 cents:
Many people would like to have an honest to God 1 MOA 22 rimfire "out of the box" for a cheap price but very few people actually have one. Your chances of getting the real McCoy for less than $500 are pretty slim. There exists a big difference between occasional and consistent. Hold suspect any advice that is rife with buzzwords such as "all day long", "if I do my part","one ragged hole" etc. I am a big fan of a CZ. I have seen them shoot side by side with an Anschutz MPR but I would not gurantee you that either will consistently shoot 1moa or better at 100yds, I guarantee they will "often" shoot that good. If you want a guaranteed 1MOA or better 22lr you will need to pay somewhere between obscene and insane. Names like Anschutz, Sako, 40x, and Stiller. You don't have to have 1 MOA to have a good trainer. For what you have indicated you will use it for, any of the suggestions you have been offered will probably be fine, but don't expect benchrest performance.
 
#30
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Even though I have used some of the the buzz words I agree with 'armorpl8chicken' 110%, and then when you take into account the effect of wind and inconsistencies of 22lr ammo even a sub MOA rifle may seem less accurate for any given group.
 
#32
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

I have a cz452 w 4-14FFP falcon, Rimfire tech 20moa base and trigger kit, sitting on a harris bipod. With SK JAGD rifle match it shoots around 1" @ 100 yards all day long; but like some have said as long as the wind is dead.

For the extra few bucks i would get the CZ over the savage. The CZ action is so much better.
 
#33
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

I'm dying to get some of the "All Day Long" crowd together for an informal shoot. Heck, I just want to get some peeps together and do it anyway. Talk smack and shoot all day long. Sounds like a winning day!
 
#34
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fish301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My CZ 453 will do it, and I don't have over 100 rounds through it yet. This is from bags or a Sinclair front rest, seated and using a Protektor owl ear rear bag. Couple of different types of ammo, both under an inch at 100, 5 AND 10 shot groups.
Use the set trigger all the time FWIW. Scope is a Nikon Monarch 3x9x40, don't know how much diff the 4 power max would make in your goal, but I think I would be close to same results running 4x max, I have shot several of my groups with the scope at 5x just FYI.

I've got around $550 in my rifle NIB, and $300ish in the scope, and the Talley rings I am running would probably cost around $70...don't need bases on my 453, the Talley's clamp right onto the rail.

A CZ 452 Varmint doesn't have the set trigger, but the trigger is adjustable, and the heavier contour barrel might suit you--with all else equal, it probably will deliver better bench results over a larger qty of rounds with the heavy barrel--they are around $450 NIB, they have them at Able Ammo right now, or did last night when I was looking around there. For the $, I think the CZ's will get you the most bang.

For the price, it has impressed me. Price notwithstanding, it's impressed some of my buddies! </div></div>

My 452 Varmint put down 5 - 5 shot groups under .4 at 50 yds last week. About 400 rounds thru it so far with a Meuller 8-32 AO scope.

I think the OPs question has to do with the rifle's capability. Sure, at 100 or 200, wind doping skills are critical to good groups but that goes without saying.

I like Gunney's Annie 64 MPR also. More money (about double for the base rifle) but a heck of alot of capability, especially if you shoot iron sights (NRA position matches).
 
#36
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

What does MOA mean? Averaging MOA for 5 shots on a 5X5? Always sub-MOA on a 5X5? Best 5-shot groups is sub-MOA? Best 3-shot group is sub-MOA?

I am just trying to figure out the expectations, here. 3 shot groups will be smaller than 5 shot groups and long-term averages will be higher than a best group. On my 40X, the long term average is just above .85 MOA @ 110 yards. The best 5 X 5 is in the .7's. The best groups is a bit under .5 MOA. In all cases, I am regularly turning in 5-shot groups that are over MOA. So do I have an MOA gun, a sub-MOA gun, or a half minute gun?

I think this leads to a lot of confusion amongst shooters. I have a buddy who told me he has an AR-15 that shoots quarter inch. I told him BS. He said, "I have the group to prove it." Turns out his definition was a single 3-shot 1/4 inch group in the life of the gun. I look at averages, but some might look at the largest group on a 5X5 and have even higher standards than I do.

A 10/22 will turn in 5-shot groups sub-MOA @ 100 yards, but probably will average higher than that.

I like Remington 40X's and Winchester 52D's. But these can be on the expensive side and harder to find to boot. I hear the Sako quads shoot pretty well. You can't go wrong with an Anschutz, but now you are talking about some real dollars. Most likely to shoot well out of the box in current production is probably the Anschutz. I own one in 17HMR and it shoots like a dream.
 
#38
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Carter, good post. I think that setting the expectation is certainly a good thing. What is someones benchmark. For me, a gun has to do it on a pretty regular basis to be called any one particular 'accuracy capable' gun. Saying that a rifle will do it--to me--means it has done it several times in recent firings, and a reasonable percentage of the time. To say a gun is a 1/4 minute gun, or a 1/2 minute or whatever, means I can place a 1/4 minute or 1/2 minute group or whatever group on the target face about a 1/4th of the time at least.

IME, it is more common to have a session at the range where a particular rig is dialed in, and shoots several of the groups IT is capable of. Say 1/2 minute for 10-11 of 15 groups. The same rifle, with the same load, may only do 1/2 minute on 4 or 5 of the 15 groups at another session. I figure that has most to do with the conditions--meaning a bunch of things of course.

I have a couple rifles, notably my TRG, that seem to turn in peak performance almost all of the time. These guns are no more or less capable to me, but are more consistent. I feel that these particular rigs are less critical in terms of how I set up into the gun, how they are placed onto the bi-pods, bags or whatever setup, and therefore they shoot to their individual capability more often.

Certain orgainizations and mfgs. have standards of what level of accuracy there rigs are...who knows what the military standards are for specific firearms? This would give some insight as to how standards are established. It is quite common to see Sub MOA guarantees using 'factory premium' ammunition...setting the standard and what is it, is indeed a good question!

 
#39
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

JeffM- No truer words have ever been spoken.
Carter- Excellent post.

I did some shooting yesterday and planned to post last night but decided I did not want to stir up anyone. The fact is that people look at things differently but that does not change the truth.
I can show you a picture like this:
1moa100y.jpg

I tell you this is a sub MOA rifle. Here is the 100yd group to prove that fact measuring .990". I was very modest with the calipers as I did not have my templates at the range, it will measure a bit less with proper templates.
Here is what you will not often see:
series100Y.jpg

Now is it sub MOA? Top targets are 922A and bottom series is Wolf MT. I shot all groups from bench with bipod and flat rear sandbag using hand pressure to squeeze for elevation. I left my owl ear bag at home. All groups shot in less than 15 minutes total, no fretting and fussing.
I imediately loaded up and headed to 210yds, same bench technique and the Wolf MT. Sub MOA group on plate:
200Mgroup.jpg

What am I not showing you? 2 plates to the right of what you see is a 9 shot group on a 6" plate that is 1.5 MOA. The first 5 were phenominal...but....I relaxed on the last 4, you didn't need to see that group. I wouldn't want anyone thinking I wasn't a bonafide triple eagle eye sharpshooter.
I direct a postal match for IHMSA. I know something about group shooting. I know why we shoot 5 and not 3 and I know the value of 10 shots for group. I shot 1KBR long enough to know what it takes to shoot itty bitty groups at a distance beyond rock throwing. It takes money and money and money and a good dose of skill that even a child CAN posess. I am not saying it is childs play so don't misunderstand me. Consistent MOA is very possible, consistent sub MOA out of a box is very rare.
Buy what makes you happy. The best group it ever shoots is not neccessarily an indicatioon of anything in particular.
 
#40
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

That's true, but MOA is MOA at any distance. It's an angle. If it will lay 5 shots in .4 @50, given no other outside influences, it will shoot .8 @ 100.
 
#41
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would be happy to have a 1 MOA at 100yards from a 22 cal rimfire out of the box.

What could I purchase for the least $ to get this MOA?

I have a NF 1x4 that I could throw on it when I use it.
Will that be enough scope?

It has been a while since I have shot any rifles at this distance and I need this to regain my skills.

</div></div>

No the NF 1-4 isn't a good scope for trying to shoot tight groups at 100Y.

IMO Very...very rarely could one find a stock factory .22 that would shoot 1 MOA "consistently" at 100Y.On top of that there's the issues with wind,ammo inconsistency,shooter error,etc.

I'll tell you a little secret!Shoot larger targets that are within the realistic capabilities of you're budget 22 and be satisfied
grin.gif
 
#42
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dollar Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's true, but MOA is MOA at any distance. It's an angle. If it will lay 5 shots in .4 @50, given no other outside influences, it will shoot .8 @ 100.</div></div>

The OP said sub-MOA at 100 yards. My rifle is about 1/2 MOA at 50 yards, on average for 5-shot groups and does not even closely resemble 1/2 MOA at 100 yards... even shooting indoors or in a dead calm.

F-class shooters will have rifles that routinely group under half inch at 100 yards, but I don't believe we have seen all X's a grand (the X ring is a whopping half MOA).

We are shooting bullets, not lasers, so accuracy deteriorates at a distance. And it is not just wind. Things like MV variation have little impact at close range, but at long range translates into vertical dispersion. That is just one example. There are other things like projectile stability that are going to change over distance.
 
#43
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dollar Bill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's true, but MOA is MOA at any distance. It's an angle. If it will lay 5 shots in .4 @50, given no other outside influences, it will shoot .8 @ 100. </div></div>

Dollar Bill, that is not true. Bullets may be stable at one velocity and become unstable at lower velocity. What a gun shoots at 50 can be a very poor indicator of what it will shoot at longer ranges.
 
#45
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

I promised to shoot some groups with my MPR and post the results. The only ammo I shoot is Wolf Match (not Extra). The following is using a Anschutz 64 MPR. The first group is usually poor so I marked it. The rest are about what I expect from this rifle at 100 yards. Hope it helps.

5 shot group average including first group - 1.112"

5 shot group average w/o first group - .979"

DSCN1553.jpg


Militarydispenser.jpg


 
#46
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

Not saying you cannot get 1 MOA out of a CZ or Savage (great rifles) but for consistently getting 1 MOA or less at 100 yards out of the box IMHO I would go with an Anschutz Biathlon (mucho $'s) or an Izmash Biathlon (7-2 is cheaper if you can find one, then 7-3/7-4 but more money) with the proper match grade ammo. The ammo may play a bigger role than the rifle in this case. There is someone on the site working on getting some SV-99 stocks into the USA. All you would need is an Izmash biathlon barreled action to drop into it for a dynamite system.
 
#47
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

I have absolutely no doubt that if I tried some other ammo the groups would shrink, but Wolf Match gives me good enough feedback for the cost. It would be interesting to see how some Eley Tenex would perform though!
 
#49
Re: 1 MOA Out of the box

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: long-shot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/bl100.html </div></div>


Well that tells you a ton. I know who that shooter is, and I know the setup, it does not get more ideal than that--that rig has more in the rest/bags/table etc. than the OP is looking to spend!!
 
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