************

[SONIC SAAMI]

**********

 

[steve123]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Nice!

Lets see some pics of 6mm CM next to some other cases like 243.

 

[Papagallos]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

I am very interested in this type of setup. Update us with some performance pics, please. Congratulations.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

If I didn't hate brass prep and fire forming so much I would have probably went with a Competition Match over the .243 that Chad is currently building me. It should be a hammer if it came from either of the two at LRI as all there guns are.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

I got Taco-Neck Syndrome (TNS) from looking at your picture.

 

[LR-WSM]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice!

Lets see some pics of 6mm CM next to some other cases like 243. </div></div>

L to R is .243 Win, 6 CM, 6mm Super LR

 

[lencomatt]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

One of my friends has one of these and he said accuracy is still great while fire forming.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lencomatt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of my friends has one of these and he said accuracy is still great while fire forming. </div></div>

True that, one hole @ 100y/100m

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I didn't hate brass prep and fire forming so much I would have probably went with a Competition Match over the .243 that Chad is currently building me. It should be a hammer if it came from either of the two at LRI as all there guns are. </div></div>

The way around this is have one barreled action as a town whore and a guy willing to pump out cases for owners of this chambering.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagallos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am very interested in this type of setup. Update us with some performance pics, please. Congratulations. </div></div>

This round will shoot inside the 6XC

Fire form load 46g of H-1000 with a 105/115 then trim the case to 2.035
Load 105/115 with 49g of H-1000.
O.A.C.L of 2.810.

EASY....SO EASY...

 

[beretta682]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

why didnt you go with a 243ai at 3150?

 

[shoepop]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagallos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am very interested in this type of setup. Update us with some performance pics, please. Congratulations. </div></div>

This round will shoot inside the 6XC
</div></div>

Pretty bold statement, better check that kool aid.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Papagallos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am very interested in this type of setup. Update us with some performance pics, please. Congratulations. </div></div>

This round will shoot inside the 6XC
</div></div>

Pretty bold statement, better check that kool aid. </div></div>

Yeah you should.

 

[beretta682]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

i shoot 2 243ai one is my f class gun 30 inch benchmark 7.5 twist barrel ,pierce action jewel trigger set at 1 lb , all set in a gary elso tube gun . my load is 46.6 grains of4831sc berger 115 vld at 3150 half moa to 1000 yd. so i checked my cool aid. as for 3000 to 3500 rounds i highly dought that 1400 to 1500 is more like it,after that the throat is gone.

 

[LWILLIAMS]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

And here comes the argument from those of us running the 6cm with h1000 and other using a fast 6mm with fast powder. You really can see 3000+ accurate rounds from a 6cm. Ask those of us running them. There are getting to be more and more of us.

 

[beretta682]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

im not here to start any thing,just asked a ?

 

[steve123]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nice!

Lets see some pics of 6mm CM next to some other cases like 243. </div></div>

L to R is .243 Win, 6 CM, 6mm Super LR

</div></div>

Thanks,

Now if someone could post a pic of 243AI and 6mm Crusader in for comparison.

 

[Chiller]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Bring her out next saturday.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Just found this - may be of help for the Crusader.

Re: CM vs. XC, DUDE.... case capacity don't lie.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

DaveD and LW, have you tried Lapua brass and/or what other brass have you had good luck with? Im becoming more interested in maybe doing some fire forming...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I didn't hate brass prep and fire forming so much I would have probably went with a Competition Match over the .243 that Chad is currently building me. It should be a hammer if it came from either of the two at LRI as all there guns are. </div></div>

The way around this is have one barreled action as a town whore and a guy willing to pump out cases for owners of this chambering.</div></div>

^^^^Will you be my town whore LW.....

 

[Immorteq]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

I wouldn't doubt the claims when you research the men making the claims. Some very intelligent experienced men touting this round and backing up their claims. It's a well designed cartridge. The cartridge design is just one facet of this package that contributes to the performance claims people are making. Nobody is claiming anyone else's pet round is garbage. Don't take it so personal. If your needs are being met by a different chambering then don't sweat it and continue to kick some ass. If you do some research before you throw a bullshit flag, you may find it as interesting as alot of others have/do.

 

[RBros]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Its definitely the slow powder that helps out. My 243 Rogue round is very similar to the 6CM, slightly more case capacity, runs 115's at 3220 in a 27" barrel using H1000. I have just over 1400 rounds down the barrel and the throat is still looking fine. Lands actually haven't moved much at all. Not sure if I can get 3000, but by the looks of things 2k will be easy. The faster burning powders definitely decrease the throat life in the 6mm's.

 

[shoepop]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Immorteq</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wouldn't doubt the claims when you research the men making the claims. Some very intelligent experienced men touting this round and backing up their claims. It's a well designed cartridge. The cartridge design is just one facet of this package that contributes to the performance claims people are making. Nobody is claiming anyone else's pet round is garbage. Don't take it so personal. If your needs are being met by a different chambering then don't sweat it and continue to kick some ass. If you do some research before you throw a bullshit flag, you may find it as interesting as alot of others have/do. </div></div>

I'm not sure what alter your kneeling at I could care less who is "touting this round". A 105 or 115 .243 @ 3150 dosen't know what it's called so a "bullshit flag" is appropriate when a claim is made this 6 will "shoot inside" that 6 when both can clock 3150 with the same bullet.

 

[Immorteq]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mark S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I'm not sure what alter your kneeling at I could care less who is "touting this round". A 105 or 115 .243 @ 3150 dosen't know what it's called so a "bullshit flag" is appropriate when a claim is made this 6 will "shoot inside" that 6 when both can clock 3150 with the same bullet. </div></div>

My apologies for not quoting the person my post was directed towards. I should have quoted beretta682 so the more emotional folks in this thread would understand which bullshit flag I was referring to.

 

[joetuono]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Could you use H1000 powder in a 243.AI and get the same benefits and speed? Is the case capacity greater in the 6mm CM?

 

[RBros]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

243AI has a little more than the 6CM. Depending on throating, H1000 will work fine.

 

[beretta682]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

my apologies gentalmen.i lerend something new if h1000 is the way to go i will try it, ive got a brand new barrel reddy to go, what would be a good starting load for 243ai 40degree shoulder thoarted for 115 bergers?useing lapua brass ? also do you get a lot of carbon fouling?

 

[xdeano]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

the only thing you'll run into with the H1000 is case capacity before you get the high velocities that you're looking for.

Try some 4831sc. It's not quite as cool buring as the H1000 but it'll up your velocites a bit.

I'm running the 6SLR and both powders just mentioned will make that round haul some ass. They will work equally well in the CM, or 243ai.

xdeano

 

[LWILLIAMS]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Keeping the 115 bullets at or just slightly above 3000 helps with the barrel life. I am running Lapua and Win brass in mine. Most people run Win brass and dont deal with Lapua. I only did it because I had 300 rounds of 243 lapua brass on the shelf. Varmint, anytime you want to stretch it to 1000 or beyond just let me know and we can ring some steel. I have only taken it to 1300 but I think I can get a bit further on a nice summer day. I have around 2400 through mine and I will let you decide if the accuracy is still there when you hold well under moa at distance.

 

[2tuf4u]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Dave--How long is the bbl. in your opening picture? It looks a lot longer than 27-28". Thx.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LWILLIAMS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keeping the 115 bullets at or just slightly above 3000 helps with the barrel life. I am running Lapua and Win brass in mine. Most people run Win brass and dont deal with Lapua. I only did it because I had 300 rounds of 243 lapua brass on the shelf. Varmint, anytime you want to stretch it to 1000 or beyond just let me know and we can ring some steel. I have only taken it to 1300 but I think I can get a bit further on a nice summer day. I have around 2400 through mine and I will let you decide if the accuracy is still there when you hold well under moa at distance.</div></div>

Cool. I have both Lapuaa and Win brass but I was just curious. I might have Chad punch my .243 that he is building me to the CM. Distance is no problem for me as I can get 2500+ yards almost out of my backyard. Cinch came out last summer and we stretched the 6x47 out to 1000 with no problem. You will have to come out one day and bang the steel here.

 

[varmint slayer]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Also what kind of price is a guy looking at for the FL re-sizing die and what kind of wait if any is there?

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2tuf4u</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave--How long is the bbl. in your opening picture? It looks a lot longer than 27-28". Thx. </div></div>

The barrel is 27 inches as measured from the recoil lug plus 2 inches of muzzle brake for a total of 29 inches

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also what kind of price is a guy looking at for the FL re-sizing die and what kind of wait if any is there? </div></div>
FL die is 125.00 you get them from Dave Bruno. I will send you a PM with a phone number

 

[John L]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also what kind of price is a guy looking at for the FL re-sizing die and what kind of wait if any is there? </div></div>
FL die is 125.00 you get them from Dave Bruno. I will send you a PM with a phone number </div></div>
Dave,
Glad to see you got your 6CM up and running. I still could not be more pleased with mine. As for some worried about fireforming, don't be. I shoot my fireform loads in 600 yd. matches all the time and have never felt like I was giving anything up. Scores tend to be very consistant between the FF loads and loads using already FF brass. I too did not like the idea of having to do a bunch of brass prep but found with this chambering it is fairly easy and does not take to much extra effort.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John L</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also what kind of price is a guy looking at for the FL re-sizing die and what kind of wait if any is there? </div></div>
FL die is 125.00 you get them from Dave Bruno. I will send you a PM with a phone number </div></div>
Dave,
Glad to see you got your 6CM up and running. I still could not be more pleased with mine. As for some worried about fireforming, don't be. I shoot my fireform loads in 600 yd. matches all the time and have never felt like I was giving anything up. Scores tend to be very consistant between the FF loads and loads using already FF brass. I too did not like the idea of having to do a bunch of brass prep but found with this chambering it is fairly easy and does not take to much extra effort. </div></div>
Something I forgot to mention with this chambering.

When fire forming the parent .243 case has positive head space so.... When in fire forming mode the inherent accuracy of the .243win is maintained

 

[LWILLIAMS]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Yeah, I need to get out there some calm summer day and see if I can make a mile with this little bastard or if the dtac will go all over the place transitioning. I think I should be able to get to at least 1500 before the bullet slows down to terribly bad, or at least that is what shooter tells me and it is pretty damn close at 1250.

 

[Mike]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

This seems like an interesting round but to be honest, I don't see the need for fire forming.

I've had multiple 243 barrels that will shoot 115s to 6.5mil to 1K. Now "if" (and it's a big if because I don't believe 3500 rounds) you can get to 3500 rounds consistently, then that's the only benefit I may see.

So tell me what this will do a 243 will not?

And not to call anyone a liar but I have yet to see a 6XC back up its claims of going over 3K. WHEN I physically put my hands on and shoot that rifle, I'll believe the 6XC is more than just hype.

 

[NOR]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

I sent an action and 28" barrel to Dave Bruno to be chambered in 6cm. I researched this round and visited with the designer Joe Hendricks. I'll share some info I gathered to help me decide. One improvement over the .243 is increased powder capcity, another is a longer neck. Not sure if anyone mentioned twist rate or not. Shooting naked 115dtacs, a 4 groove, 7.5 twist in a 28" kreiger or bartlein barrel was recommended. Fireform new ww brass with 47 grs. of h1000 with the bullet 5 thousand in the lands. After fireforming load 49grs. 40 thousand off the lands. Clean every 200 rds. with jb bore paste is another factor to acheive the 3000 + round count. I was not lead to believe this is a do all, beat all cartridge and was told the acurracy is comparable to the .243, .243ai, 6xc and the 6slr. Thought I would post why I went with the 6cm and I am in no way trying to lead anyone in believing I'm an expert on this cartridge or any other, just excited to get a new lr rifle.

 

[SONIC SAAMI]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

1039 rounds through the rifle and still holding 1/2MOA and better @100m.

105 Berger Hybrids @3287 with no signs of over pressure and 8 or more loads on the brass before the primer pocket gives out.

03/07/2012
DA 6300 feet.
Mirage heavy
Wind 2 to 5mph off the 1300
3.8 mils to 800 yards
1/3 IPSC
5 shots
5 hits

 

[Lofty]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

I'm curios as well.....what's the benefit over a standard .243?

 

[Mike]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curios as well.....what's the benefit over a standard .243? </div></div>
The 6CM will push the slippery 105s 3287fps.
</div></div>

The 243 will push them as fast and sometimes faster than that.

 

[my human host]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

I fall into the category of skeptic when it comes to the barrel life claims of some of these wildcat 6mm's.

Let's take an objective look at the case designs. 30 degree shoulders and long necks are nothing new. Benchresters running the 6 br claim accurate barrel life in the 3000 to 3500 range. The 6br has a 30 degree shoulder and a long neck. So why is the barrel life no better than the 6cm or 6slr? The old 6mm Rem has a 26 degree shoulder and a very long neck as well. Here again I've seen no one claim any more than a slight barrel life increase over the standard 243.

I'm inclined to think that any improvement in barrel life over the standard 243 is due more to H1000 and an effort by the guys running these wildcats to keep pressures at a reasonable level. You could do the same thing with the 243. So, I'm uncertain what is actually being gained.

The 30 degree shoulder does offer the benefit of reduced brass flow and maybe a very slight edge in potential accuracy. I just don't think it would be enough to make a noticable difference in a field rifle.

A good friend of mine is running the 6 slr. I'm watching intently to see how it works out. It's certainly a shooter. Only time will tell what the barrel life will be.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

samre doubt here, anytime a bullet is pushed beyond the 3000fps mark, the barrel life drops off dramatically, no matter what shoulder angle, neck length or powder used. What is the point of increasing case capacity to reduce speed by using slower powders?? I don't get it, you can push a 105 out of a 6MM BR with 30 gr of varget with again about the same barrel life. Barrel life meaning 1/2 MOA or better. Yes you can shoot those barrels in the 2 MOA but why??

 

[Mike]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm curios as well.....what's the benefit over a standard .243? </div></div>
The 6CM will push the slippery 105s 3287fps.
</div></div>

The 243 will push them as fast and sometimes faster than that. </div></div>
Thanks Mike I did not know a 243win would push the 105s to 3287 and faster.
What is the load data?

On a side note 47.5g of H-1000 and the 105 Hybrid put me @3100.
I needed the slower load to meet some matches speed limits.</div></div>

What are your specs? It's not rocket science, George and many others got the 105s to 3200 when they were first being developed. The only reason they tuned them down was match criterion. Again, I'm not seeing anything that this chambering can do that hasn't been tried and accomplished before. Send me a barrel, I'll let you know what the barrel life turns out to be. I'm willing to bet the barrel it's WAY less than 3500 rounds.

 

[Mike]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If 3287 + FPS out of a 243win is so easily obtainable then why was the 6mm Crusader developed?
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1014170&page=1
Please take note of the 3rd post in the above

</div></div>

Classic!!

First, lets address the fact that you chose a post that is 3 years old before the 6 Crus was really developed. Second, George knows very well his 243s will do 3150. There are numerous 243 posts in the reloading section reiterating that fact. Also, George will acknowledge this, I'll get him in here to prove it. Third, that post was also made before the 105 hybrids were even out, in fact, it was made before the improved 115DTACS were even out. Finally, by bringing up that archaic post I'll ask the question. Do you think the 6 Crus is limited to 3300? Because if you do, you're sadly mistaken. Therefore if you think the 243 is limited to 3050 you would also be sadly mistaken.
Finally, you do bring up a good point. What does your miracle 6mm do that the 6 Crus does not? Barrel life is supposed to be one of the top reasons for its development. So what makes your 6CM so miraculous?

On a final note, I've got a rifle here. Send me your barrel and I'll test it to 3000 rounds. If it makes it sub .5 moa to 3K rounds, I'll send you a new barrel. If it doesn't, thanks for the barrel.

 

[Mike]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You stated a 243win will push a 105 Hybrid 3287fps and sometimes faster. All I was asking for was the data.
Thanks</div></div>

The same data you are providing. Personal testimony.

 

[Mike]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Dave,
You seem to be ignoring a great deal and yet expect us to be receptive to everything you say. So I'm going to address the other short action rounds and the I will address the 243 question.

You ask if marketing is the key to these rounds and the short answer is yes. How do I know? Because I've had these conversations with George who, ironically, is the inventory of two of the three cartridges you state. But let's discuss.

6mm Crusader. George takes a 6mm Remington due to the longer neck (theorized for better barrel life) and blows the body and shoulder out giving the case an increase of roughly about 8 gns of water capacity. The performance is phenomenal and since there has been literally tens of thousands of rounds shot with this caliber the results are amazing; much higher than initially anticipated. Now when George first came up with this it was originally designed as a varmint cartridge, not a tactical comp cartridge. However, like many of us like to think more is better and it was tried in the tactical competition arena and it showed some great success. However, since the speeds were very fast (3200-3300 with 115s) many match directors decided to implement a speed restriction and low and behold we have that 3100 fps limit. Where and why do you think that came from? Now you ask if marketing is behind this as well and let me ask you this since it's relevant to the SLR as well. If the reamer and dies are exclusive to one gunsmith and hence you must have your rifle worked on by THAT gunsmith to receive that chambering, is that not marketing? I think it's brilliant. Create hype and then control the distribution. Hello Apple, Inc. anyone?

Next, the 6mm Creedmore. Two thoughts. First, we all know how well the performance of the 243 w/115 shines. So why not try it in an AR platform? Well you need a long (27"+) barrel to really get the velocities. If you can't get the velocities you cannot get the advantage. Running a 243 with a short barrel does not allow you to take advantage of the 115's BC due to reduced velocity. Running an AR with a 28" barrel is not very feasible. Both have been tried years ago (again, I've been witness to this) and the conclusion was made it was a waste of time.
Second, with the popularity of the 260 with hand loaders Hornady decides to step up with the 6.5 Creedmoor; essentially a 260 with a different case shape and very similar performance. And here's the kicker, it's available as a FACTORY match load. What? No more hand loading to get great performance from the 6.5 bullets? Kick ass! How does it run in an AR? It runs fantastic, kick ass! Now the idea kicks in. George (again) says "let's neck down a 6.5 Creedmoor to a 6 Creedmoor and see what she does". What does it do? In a bolt gun it runs well and performs admirably but what does it do in an AR? It feeds extremely well and it throws the 105s at 3000fps. Prayers have been answered, a 6mm that can run from an short barrel AR and give 243 (the gold 6mm standard) performance. So to answer your question about is it marketing? Well, where do you get 6 Creedmoor brass? You either make it yourself or you buy it from 1 source, GAP. Where do you get a 6 Creedmoor die set? Exclusively at GAP. Where do you get the 6 Creedmoor chambering? Exclusively at GAP. Is it marketing? You tell me.

6mmSLR. What do we have here? a 243 massaged to give it a longer neck to do what? Theoretically increase barrel life. There is no performance increase over the 243 so again, all we're talking about is extended barrel life which may or may not be factual. And where do you get the dies? One source?

So again, I'm not seeing anything that tells me the 6CM is bringing something new to the table. Performance is the same as the 243 but now I have to fire-form too. So what is the attraction? Barrel life? Ok, in my eyes it's "prove it" and to me, that means I have to either physically do it myself or take the word of a very small circle of people I trust. So until that happens, I don't believe 3500 with sub .5 moa is possible.

So finally let's address the 243 and 105s to 3280. You're espousing in this thread the advantage of the slower powder H1000, but have you tried RL-17? Many don't like it due to perceived temperature sensitivity issues however it has shown time and time again the ability to push 6 and 6.5mm bullets way past the accepted "norms" of velocity.

Here's a nice article I believe you should read. Skip the XC part and go right to the sidebar where it discusses RL-17. Yes, the 6XC is not the 243 but this was the foundation for my 243 experimentation. And since the 243 has roughly 6 gns more water capacity over the 6XC getting the velocities with less pressure is not difficult at all.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/6xc-for-competitive-shooting/

So in conclusion Dave why don't YOU stop the smoke and mirrors and just admit that you've taken a 243, massaged it a little to create your own niche and call it a day?
Barrel life is (again theoretically) the only advantage potentially and I'm not buying it. Add in the PITA aspect of fire forming and I'm definitely not seeing where any advantage lies.

 

[Fredo0621]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave,
You seem to be ignoring a great deal and yet expect us to be receptive to everything you say. So I'm going to address the other short action rounds and the I will address the 243 question.

You ask if marketing is the key to these rounds and the short answer is yes. How do I know? Because I've had these conversations with George who, ironically, is the inventory of two of the three cartridges you state. But let's discuss.

6mm Crusader. George takes a 6mm Remington due to the longer neck (theorized for better barrel life) and blows the body and shoulder out giving the case an increase of roughly about 8 gns of water capacity. The performance is phenomenal and since there has been literally tens of thousands of rounds shot with this caliber the results are amazing; much higher than initially anticipated. Now when George first came up with this it was originally designed as a varmint cartridge, not a tactical comp cartridge. However, like many of us like to think more is better and it was tried in the tactical competition arena and it showed some great success. However, since the speeds were very fast (3200-3300 with 115s) many match directors decided to implement a speed restriction and low and behold we have that 3100 fps limit. Where and why do you think that came from? Now you ask if marketing is behind this as well and let me ask you this since it's relevant to the SLR as well. If the reamer and dies are exclusive to one gunsmith and hence you must have your rifle worked on by THAT gunsmith to receive that chambering, is that not marketing? I think it's brilliant. Create hype and then control the distribution. Hello Apple, Inc. anyone?

Next, the 6mm Creedmore. Two thoughts. First, we all know how well the performance of the 243 w/115 shines. So why not try it in an AR platform? Well you need a long (27"+) barrel to really get the velocities. If you can't get the velocities you cannot get the advantage. Running a 243 with a short barrel does not allow you to take advantage of the 115's BC due to reduced velocity. Running an AR with a 28" barrel is not very feasible. Both have been tried years ago (again, I've been witness to this) and the conclusion was made it was a waste of time.
Second, with the popularity of the 260 with hand loaders Hornady decides to step up with the 6.5 Creedmoor; essentially a 260 with a different case shape and very similar performance. And here's the kicker, it's available as a FACTORY match load. What? No more hand loading to get great performance from the 6.5 bullets? Kick ass! How does it run in an AR? It runs fantastic, kick ass! Now the idea kicks in. George (again) says "let's neck down a 6.5 Creedmoor to a 6 Creedmoor and see what she does". What does it do? In a bolt gun it runs well and performs admirably but what does it do in an AR? It feeds extremely well and it throws the 105s at 3000fps. Prayers have been answered, a 6mm that can run from an short barrel AR and give 243 (the gold 6mm standard) performance. So to answer your question about is it marketing? Well, where do you get 6 Creedmoor brass? You either make it yourself or you buy it from 1 source, GAP. Where do you get a 6 Creedmoor die set? Exclusively at GAP. Where do you get the 6 Creedmoor chambering? Exclusively at GAP. Is it marketing? You tell me.

6mmSLR. What do we have here? a 243 massaged to give it a longer neck to do what? Theoretically increase barrel life. There is no performance increase over the 243 so again, all we're talking about is extended barrel life which may or may not be factual. And where do you get the dies? One source?

So again, I'm not seeing anything that tells me the 6CM is bringing something new to the table. Performance is the same as the 243 but now I have to fire-form too. So what is the attraction? Barrel life? Ok, in my eyes it's "prove it" and to me, that means I have to either physically do it myself or take the word of a very small circle of people I trust. So until that happens, I don't believe 3500 with sub .5 moa is possible.

So finally let's address the 243 and 105s to 3280. You're espousing in this thread the advantage of the slower powder H1000, but have you tried RL-17? Many don't like it due to perceived temperature sensitivity issues however it has shown time and time again the ability to push 6 and 6.5mm bullets way past the accepted "norms" of velocity.

Here's a nice article I believe you should read. Skip the XC part and go right to the sidebar where it discusses RL-17. Yes, the 6XC is not the 243 but this was the foundation for my 243 experimentation. And since the 243 has roughly 6 gns more water capacity over the 6XC getting the velocities with less pressure is not difficult at all.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/6xc-for-competitive-shooting/

So in conclusion Dave why don't YOU stop the smoke and mirrors and just admit that you've taken a 243, massaged it a little to create your own niche and call it a day?
Barrel life is (again theoretically) the only advantage potentially and I'm not buying it. Add in the PITA aspect of fire forming and I'm definitely not seeing where any advantage lies. </div></div>

...Boom...

 

[KYS]

Re: Chad Dixon 6mm Competition Match "Scoped & Doped"

Mike, FTW.

Dave keeps ignoring the same questions asked over and over again. We cant resolve this debate until you pony up and tell us. What is your PROOF that a 243 cant push the 105's faster then 3287?