12.5 Grendel vs 14.5 6mm ARC your opinion counts

[LRRPF52]

Thank you again very much for sharing so much information and experience, Being honest with myself I'm working a lot these days and don't have much time for reloading at the moment but plan to in the future so the Grendel Definitely seems to fit what I want Definitely seems to fit what I want. Especially with those 100 gr eldvt. I have Pretty much all the lower grain stuff up to 75gr covered in various 223 rifles. I want this one to be Contact suppressed And I want to be able to grab it to shoot some hugs To shoot a deer little bit far away potentially To shoot some coyotes on occasion And as Defense role That crosses into dmr. So I think That's gonna hit the mark for me.

If you want an easy button in 2 different loads, you could do 100gr ELD-VT and 123gr ELD-M, done.

100gr ELD-M seems like it would be nasty in close quarters, since it’s a varmint round.

It has already been used to take hogs and exhibits explosive results as designed, but I think it’s meant more for yotes.

123gr ELD-M has been used a lot for medium game hunting and does a good job of it since it’s a bit softer than a 123gr SST, but jacket separation is common from longer barrels/closer shots. Still plows through the vitals.

123gr ELD-M hits the steel hard even from the 12”. It has more energy at 400yds than a 20” .30-30 Winchester does at 200yds.

Another premium load that does really well on larger game is the 129gr Nosler Accubond Long Range. PF and Nosler both load it but it sells out within 24hr usually.

For bolts, the Rexus bolts are my go-to.

Bootleg Bolt Carrier allows you to dial-in the gas setting to prevent early unlocking. I expected to have problems with 12” CLGS, but that Bootleg carrier really works at taming the little gun.

I also use an extra power action spring with standard carbine buffer. 12” guns run great with these components. I shoot it exclusively suppressed.

 

[justagunguy13]

If you want an easy button in 2 different loads, you could do 100gr ELD-VT and 123gr ELD-M, done.

100gr ELD-M seems like it would be nasty in close quarters, since it’s a varmint round.

It has already been used to take hogs and exhibits explosive results as designed, but I think it’s meant more for yotes.

123gr ELD-M has been used a lot for medium game hunting and does a good job of it since it’s a bit softer than a 123gr SST, but jacket separation is common from longer barrels/closer shots. Still plows through the vitals.

123gr ELD-M hits the steel hard even from the 12”. It has more energy at 400yds than a 20” .30-30 Winchester does at 200yds.

Another premium load that does really well on larger game is the 129gr Nosler Accubond Long Range. PF and Nosler both load it but it sells out within 24hr usually.

For bolts, the Rexus bolts are my go-to.

Bootleg Bolt Carrier allows you to dial-in the gas setting to prevent early unlocking. I expected to have problems with 12” CLGS, but that Bootleg carrier really works at taming the little gun.

I also use an extra power action spring with standard carbine buffer. 12” guns run great with these components. I shoot it exclusively suppressed.

Please thank you for the info, I was having the same thoughts as what you were saying 100gr eldvt and 123gr eldx .

Would you say that the adjustable bcg is better than an adjustable gas block, Or good in addition to one.

 

[justagunguy13]

This is how far I got at the moment with planning

10" radian builders Set
12.5" rainier ultramatch mk2 or pf krieger custom barrel
Sentry 7 gas block
hbpdw brace
Already own rugged razor and hxqd 762ti

 

[LRRPF52]

I hear you on reloads, but I'm trying to stay away from that if possible. Which thread did you post all the factory loadings for the 6.5G in?

I had to search a bit to find it:

2023-2024 6.5 Grendel Factory Ammo List

Alexander Arms
120gr Barnes TSX HPBT
120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
123gr Lapua Scenar HPBT
129gr Hornady SST
130gr Swift Scirocco

Barnaul
100gr FMJ
110gr FMJ

Barnes
115gr VOR-TX TTSX Boat Tail

Cavity Back Bullets
105gr MKZ
118gr MKZ


Copper Creek
95gr Hornady V-Max
100gr Barnes TTSX
120gr Barnes TSX
120gr Barnes TAC-TX
120gr Hornady CX
120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip

123gr ELD-M
125gr Nosler Partition
127gr Barnes LRX
129gr Hornady Interlock
129gr Hornady SST

130gr Hornady CX
130gr Nosler Accubond
130gr Berger VLD Hunting
130gr Berger Hybrid
130gr Hornady ELD-M
6.5 Grendel load development pack Stage I
6.5 Grendel load development pack Stage II
Starline load development pack
Lapua load development pack brass
Hornady Load development pack brass
Norma load development pack brass

Custom Reloads of Dallas (This is new manufactured ammo with new brass loaded on single stage press using a Sartorius to within .02gr.)
90gr Nosler Varmageddon
95gr V-Max
120gr ELD-M
123gr SST
123gr Scenar
123gr Hornady BTHP
130gr Nosler Accubond
130gr ELD-M
140gr BTHP


Defender Ammunition
105gr Blitzking
107gr Tipped SMK
123gr SMK

Druid Hill Armory
95gr V-Max
95gr Maker Tipped Rex
123gr SST
123gr ELD-M
140gr ELD-M

Federal
90gr TNT American Eagle
120gr Match American Eagle
120gr Fusion
130gr Berger OTM Gold Medal Match

Fort Scott Munitions
123gr TUI

Hendershot's
95gr Hornady V-MAX
100gr ELD-M
100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
100gr Nosler Partition
100gr Sierra HP
100gr Barnes TAC-TX
100gr Barnes TTSX

107gr Sierra Matck King
107gr Sierra Tipped Match King

120gr TTSX
120gr TAC-TX
120gr Berger Match TGT
120gr Hornady ELD-M
120gr Hornady GMX
120gr Lapua Scenar-L
120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip

123gr Hornady ELD-M
123gr Nosler Custom Competition
123gr Hornady SST
125gr Nosler Partition

130gr Berger VLD Match Hunting
130gr Berger AR Hybrid Tactical
130gr Nosler Accubond

Hornady
100gr ELD-VT (New for 2024)
123gr SST Custom
123gr ELD-M Black
123gr FMJ Frontier

HSM
107gr SMK
120gr Sierra Pro Hunter
123gr SMK
130gr Berger Match Hunting VLD Trophy Gold

Maker Bullets Ammunition
85gr Overwatch Field TREX
95gr Overwatch Field TREX
110gr Overwatch Field TREX


Nosler
90gr Varmageddon
120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
123gr Custom Competition
129gr Accubond Long Range Trophy Grade

Precision Firearms
95gr V-Max
100gr A-MAX
100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
100gr Barnes TTSX
100gr Lapua Scenar HPBT
107gr Sierra Match King HPBT
108gr Lapua Scenar
110gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos

120gr A-MAX
120gr PPU HPBT
120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip
120gr Barnes TSX
120gr Barnes TTSX
120gr Nosler E-Tip
120gr Lapua Scenar-L

123gr Hornady ELD-M
123gr Sierra Match King HPBT
123gr Lapua Scenar HPBT

123gr Hornady AMAX
123gr Hornady SST
123gr Nosler Custom Competition
123gr Lapua Silver Scenar

127gr Barnes LRX
129gr Nosler Accubond Long Range

130gr Berger VLD Hunting
130gr Berger VLD TGT
130gr Sierra Tipped Match King

PPU/Prvi Partizan
110gr FMJBT
120gr HPBT

Sellier & Bellot
124gr FMJ

Underwood Ammo
105gr Match Solid Flash Tip
110gr Controlled Chaos

Remington
120gr HPBT
130gr Premier Match OTM Berger (replaced 120gr Premier Match)

Wolf
100gr FMJ (steel case)
120gr Performance

 

[LRRPF52]

Please thank you for the info, I was having the same thoughts as what you were saying 100gr eldvt and 123gr eldx .

Would you say that the adjustable bcg is better than an adjustable gas block, Or good in addition to one.

I would either do the Bootleg BCG or a RifleSpeed adjustable gas block.

Whatever gas block you use, it should be sealed to the journal, not slip-fit and set-screwed.

Slip-fit + set-screwed is generally a recipe for the block to come loose and to leak.

You can ask PF to offer a pinned one for you that you can punch out when you do your barrel install and barrel nut goes over.

The Bootleg Carrier is a drop-in affair with 4 positions.

Rifle Speed has 12 positions. The collars have different lengths depending on which handguard and muzzle device/suppressor you will be using.

I have had no issues dialing the Bootlegs to fully-suppressed and just shooting them with cans that way.

I de-edge, blend, and polish my barrel extensions regardless of chambering in both small and large frame ARs. This helps with feeding and is probably one of the reasons why I never have feeding issues.

I also remove extractor O-rings if they are present. I think they make chambering more difficult and are harder on the extractor lip. They were a band-aid from Crane for the first production run of M4A1 SOCOM barrels, some of which had tight chambers and needed extra help ripping cases out, especially when suppressed. The fix was following the TDP on chambers, since we just didn’t have a lot of extraction problems with the original M4s.

A lot of bolt manufacturers include the O-ring thinking it is helpful, but I’m not a fan of it at all and my results speak for themselves.

I’ve had boring results with all the mags I have, ranging from CProducts to ASC and Elander, as well as Amend2 polymer 10rd mags.

The only thing I have broken are some discontinued Korean-made scopes. My son has a drawer full of them, but I kept hoping I would be a special snowflake because I loved the glass, reticle, and FoV so much. I have a Norden GRSC 1-6x24 on my 12” now, which is a known performer even on SR-25s and LMTs in .308 shot in high volume.

I’m using the LaRue MBT-2S trigger and quality small parts from J&T Distributing I think.

If I was starting over, I think I would order the LaRue Stealth 2.0 upper/handguard combo, custom-cut the front of the handguard to length, Cerakote FDE, and go from there. That would be a sick little build.

 

[Shoreglide]

You can also do a Criterion for $425 from PF.

Someone had a complete PF Bartlein 12” Grendel with billet receivers for a great price not too long ago. I just checked and the listing is gone now.

I might know a guy who couldn’t not make an offer and buy it after seeing the listing languish for some time

 

[st1650]

Does handloading with CFE223 / LVR really outdoes factory Hornady in terms of speed in a short barrel ? Quickload only gives a 88-90% burn rate with CFE223 on a 12in barrel (2225 FPS). N540 gives a better burn but not much speed (2200 FPS)
In the 6 ARC, I've noticed there was almost no velocity gain even in a bolt gun by handloading with CFE 223 vs Hornady's factory stuff.
Also any data so far with the 100 VT ? Potentially inside of 150 yards, would the extra speed of the 100 VT help with taking down mule/white tail deer or does the 123 truly shines even at low speed.

 

[LRRPF52]

Does handloading with CFE223 / LVR really outdoes factory Hornady in terms of speed in a short barrel ? Quickload only gives a 88-90% burn rate with CFE223 on a 12in barrel (2225 FPS). N540 gives a better burn but not much speed (2200 FPS)
In the 6 ARC, I've noticed there was almost no velocity gain even in a bolt gun by handloading with CFE 223 vs Hornady's factory stuff.
Also any data so far with the 100 VT ? Potentially inside of 150 yards, would the extra speed of the 100 VT help with taking down mule/white tail deer or does the 123 truly shines even at low speed.

QuickLoad’s modeling doesn’t match up with reality in Grendel for whatever reasons. It will show pressures 9,000- 14,000psi higher than actual pressure test breeches. Go look at Hodgdon’s pressure data and enter the loads into QL and watch it kick out insane numbers. Not sure what it is with QL and some of the smaller, short propellant column cartridges, but it is way off with them.

Not an attack on QL, just stating the facts.

I haven’t chrono’d any hand loads in the 12” Grendel. I’ve shot only factory ammo through it for the past 7 years, mostly 123gr ELD-M, 120gr Federal OTM, 90gr TNT, and 110gr PPU FMJ.

100gr ELD-VT is performing as it was intended, which is a Varmint round. It comes apart immediately with jacket and core separation, and lead fragmentation.

 

[st1650]

QuickLoad’s modeling doesn’t match up with reality in Grendel for whatever reasons. It will show pressures 9,000- 14,000psi higher than actual pressure test breeches. Go look at Hodgdon’s pressure data and enter the loads into QL and watch it kick out insane numbers. Not sure what it is with QL and some of the smaller, short propellant column cartridges, but it is way off with them.

Not an attack on QL, just stating the facts.

I haven’t chrono’d any hand loads in the 12” Grendel. I’ve shot only factory ammo through it for the past 7 years, mostly 123gr ELD-M, 120gr Federal OTM, 90gr TNT, and 110gr PPU FMJ.

100gr ELD-VT is performing as it was intended, which is a Varmint round. It comes apart immediately with jacket and core separation, and lead fragmentation.

One more question, for deers out of the 12in barrel, would you go 123 SST or 123 ELD-M if you had to do factory ammo.

 

[LRRPF52]

One more question, for deers out of the 12in barrel, would you go 123 SST or 123 ELD-M if you had to do factory ammo.

123gr ELD-M is slightly softer, opens up more due to lack of cannelure and mechanical crimp. Most report tighter groups, but I honestly think barrel quality and chambering job are bigger factors. I’ve shot composite groups of 123gr SST and 120gr Scenar-L at 200yds that were barely over 2” with Lilja barrels.

I’m not sure you could tell the difference between the SST and ELD-M at 2280-2350fps mv and resultant impact velocity. Expansion range with the 123gr SST will be 260yds on the low end at sea level assuming 2200fps (avg for 10.5” barrels). Before the ELD-M or 123gr SST existed, people were killing tons of medium game with 123gr A-MAX (discontinued and replaced by ELD-M).

One of the biggest things to consider with those types of cup and core bullets is shooting from a longer barrel at higher speeds at close range (more violent expansion/fragmentation), but from what all I’ve seen from larger data, those also seem to be fast kills.

More important than bullet selection between those two will be getting trigger time with them on 10-12" steel plates from 200-400yds to build confidence, from field positions. Once you get a lot of reps in with either one, and hear how hard they hit, you’ll go into season with a different level of knowing your capability to punch the vitals.

 

[LRRPF52]

Here’s how Maker 95gr T-REX do on hogs:

 

[st1650]

Yeah I'm thinking a 12in Grendel with a PLX-c 1-8 in mrad with a RH25 clip-on is a pretty close to the perfect universal do-it-all for 0-200y around the farm.

 

[justagunguy13]

123gr ELD-M is slightly softer, opens up more due to lack of cannelure and mechanical crimp. Most report tighter groups, but I honestly think barrel quality and chambering job are bigger factors. I’ve shot composite groups of 123gr SST and 120gr Scenar-L at 200yds that were barely over 2” with Lilja barrels.

I’m not sure you could tell the difference between the SST and ELD-M at 2280-2350fps mv and resultant impact velocity. Expansion range with the 123gr SST will be 260yds on the low end at sea level assuming 2200fps (avg for 10.5” barrels). Before the ELD-M or 123gr SST existed, people were killing tons of medium game with 123gr A-MAX (discontinued and replaced by ELD-M).

One of the biggest things to consider with those types of cup and core bullets is shooting from a longer barrel at higher speeds at close range (more violent expansion/fragmentation), but from what all I’ve seen from larger data, those also seem to be fast kills.

More important than bullet selection between those two will be getting trigger time with them on 10-12" steel plates from 200-400yds to build confidence, from field positions. Once you get a lot of reps in with either one, and hear how hard they hit, you’ll go into season with a different level of knowing your capability to punch the vitals.

In my personal experience the eld-m is more of a match bullet hence the M. When shooting game me and my friends have experienced alot of pass through shots. But rld-x on the other hand has been solid. As per hornady the eld-x is designed to expand at lower velocities. So in my mind its closer to the amax.

 

[st1650]

Just got my 12incher done
2425 FPS with the Factory 100 ELD-VT, crazy low SD (was getting 2150 FPS with factory 123 ELD-M)
Might handloads some 129 ABLR and 120 GD with N540 later this summer for autumn deers but pretty impressed with the factory stuff so far

 

[LRRPF52]

Someone else who chrono’d it said the SDs on the 100gr ELD-VT were crazy-tight as well.

I’ve only shot it out of the 17.6” Grendel with my kids on 2 occasions so far, and I have not been off-steel from 700-1000yds, on large gongs.

My 8yr-old was at least 4/5 or 5/6 at 1000yds with it on the big gong.

I noticed it pattern a really tight waterline at 1000yds in the wind. I was 10.8 mils at 1k at 6300ft elevation.

To me, it feels like shooting a 6mm AR but is a bit louder on the steel, maybe due to larger diameter and the tip causing rapid expansion.

If you already have a Grendel, 100gr ELD-VT is 6mm AR/ARC in a box for you. The factory load has been great, even if driven 140-160fps short of its potential.

 

[MSTN]

Shot the 14.5" 6ARC out to 900 yards today, where at 8 mils I ran out of reticle.

Interesting side note: Hornady ammo speeds up 2 FPS with every one degree F increase.