12.7x114mm...

[coldboreAU]

When I saw it, I just thought maybe... if bartlein soon makes 3" thick barrels and BAT 3" thick actions. lol

Any thoughts on this? I have read that the cartridge push a 750 grain bullet over 4000 fps.

 

[Bhobbs]

I always wondered what long range potential this round has. Seems like it would be pretty potent. Quality of brass would be the biggest issue I can think of.

Edit: I was thinking of the 14.5x114mm round. I didn't realize someone was necking it down to 12.7mm.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

3300-3400 fps just another barrel burner, push a heavy with a good BC at 3000 -3100 fps and you will have a winner

oneshot.onehit

 

[badassgunworks]

It is a waste of time cartridge was never designed as a precision cartridge just for slinging lead very poor standard deviations and low pressure cases that when pushed to the limits will cause function issues when reloaded. The the sop cartridge was proven as a failure so will this.

 

[brianf]

It is a waste of time cartridge was never designed as a precision cartridge just for slinging lead very poor standard deviations and low pressure cases that when pushed to the limits will cause function issues when reloaded. The the sop cartridge was proven as a failure so will this.

what ever happened to the SOP?

i never saw any of the results

thought it was a bridge to far but was hopeful

 

[badassgunworks]

Sop was a failure look who claimed to be involved wab back when on the hide. It ever saw the performance levels claimed horrible standard deviations weak brass junk actions. 2 failures in that area.it might work ok if a good action was ever made. But it old tech just like the 50 bmg . My 458 goliath will be much better . Necked to what ever some one wants.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Fuck yeah, let’s get this party started

 

[badassgunworks]

Fuck yeah, let’s get this party started View attachment 7858090

There's just so many things wrong with this

 

[brianf]

That’s a realllly big 6BR lol

 

[badassgunworks]

That’s a realllly big 6BR lol

Neck is entirely too long. A lot of missed opportunity for additional case volume having the same cartridge AOL. Bullet will never stabilize properly way more than 6 calibers in length bearing surface is way too long and for every groove cut in that bullet you're losing massive ballistic coefficient the whole thing is backward thinking backward technology. All just to have a really fat cartridge. if a guy had a desire to have some insane sectional density. Should have just went with a bigger caliber

 

[acudaowner]

It's not wrong It's signs of visionary thinking .

 

[coldboreAU]

yes the 14.9SOP was a failure and it's an ugly cartridge but it was based on 20mm shell. 12,7 x 144 is based on 14.5x144mm. i don't want talk about barrel life because all cartridges in thoses calibers are barrel burners.(375/50, 416/50, 458 goliath, 416 destoryer...) i can not belive that someone get a long barrel life with these cartridges. Everyone complains that the 14.5x144 wasn't designed for high pressure and precision. But it would be a real challenge to design a cartridge that is accurate, built for high pressure and fires a 750 grain bullet at 4000 fps. Yes, it will require a special action and improved case and maybe even a better barrel alloy and some other stuff.
(Call me crazy, I don't care) but I hope that maybe someone will develop a cartridge like this in the future.

now back to 12.7x144. The 12.7x144 has over 400 grains powder capacity and even Ukraine managed to build a rifle capable of firing 12.7x144mm but i takes slow powder.

 

[coldboreAU]

Ukraine rifle and ammo and one thing about the 50 bmg. It was never designed for precision but 50cal benchrest guys shoot 2 inch groups at 1000 yards.

 

[Dan Warner]

Here we are on the Hide again rebutting the keyboard jockeys who know almost nothing about what they are claiming. The 14.9 has had its setbacks. The first two platforms that it was built were plagued with functional problems. This equates to very few rounds put down range in total. So load development was never completed. For you to criticise what was the first iterance of a cartridge design evolution is rather ridiculous. Even more telling of your lack of knowledge is the criticism of the bullet in the picture...a GS custom bullet that was only used in the first initial firings. "Waste of time" Marc, really? You of all people should know better.

 

[badassgunworks]

Here we are on the Hide again rebutting the keyboard jockeys who know almost nothing about what they are claiming. The 14.9 has had its setbacks. The first two platforms that it was built were plagued with functional problems. This equates to very few rounds put down range in total. So load development was never completed. For you to criticise what was the first iterance of a cartridge design evolution is rather ridiculous. Even more telling of your lack of knowledge is the criticism of the bullet in the picture...a GS custom bullet that was only used in the first initial firings. "Waste of time" Marc, really? You of all people should know better.



I do believe that if someday someone decides to spend the time and effort and money to develop a action that works that the cartridge what' with the right bullet would do very well. Yes I do know that the bullet in the photo was a GS customs bullet mistake. I am not discrediting your involvement. I am however discrediting people's ideas that somehow just because a cartridge is Big looks cool that it must defy laws of physics and gravity . X + X + X+ X=X in order to change the end results somthing in the equation must be added or changed. We see a very clearly defined end results on all cartridges based on physics with out changing x's in the line up . I have always had faith in your ideas and products and designs . The future is bright for those who thing out side of the box.

 

[Dogtown]

A 14.5 Soviet is ballistically a lot more interesting, but...precision components.

 

[coldboreAU]

@ Dan Warner and @ Badassgunworks.
So, first of all, I don't want to badmouth anyone's product. To be honest, I have a lot of respect for people who develop cartridges/wildcats of this size. It takes a lot of knowledge, time and money to advance such developments. Regardless of whether it is 14.9 or 420 Colossus or another caliber. And yes, your knowledge about building wildcats is 10 times better than mine. But let me share a thought with you. You are Americans. Why did the Americans fly to the moon on a rocket??? The Americans went to the moon simply because they can.

Regarding the 12.7x114mm cartridge. It may need internal changes/modifications to the cartridge. It may need a new brass alloys, or the same alloy as the 420Blitzkrieg to operate at 90-100000 psi. It may need a speical action, hugh tenon und may even a 2.5" barrel.
(If I'm right, Bartlein even has 2.5" thick ammo test barrels) And yes, it probably needs some premium components and things I didn't even think of.
But you guys aren't really telling me that it's 100% impossible to build an accurate rifle that fires a 12.7mm (750grain) projectile at 4000 fps???
maybe it takes 50" barrel to get 4000fps.

I've even seen a 416Barrett with 50" barrel. By the way, the old 15.2x168 Steyr launches a sabot projectile at 4700 fps.
The CMS 14.5x144mm also works.
But huge muzzle flash with short barrel.
(slow motion picture)

 

[coldboreAU]

@Dan Warner. I found various articles about the 14.9. If it ever goes into production without technical errors, without issues...etc. I would love to see it and i would just say congrats.

 

[badassgunworks]

@ Dan Warner and @ Badassgunworks.
So, first of all, I don't want to badmouth anyone's product. To be honest, I have a lot of respect for people who develop cartridges/wildcats of this size. It takes a lot of knowledge, time and money to advance such developments. Regardless of whether it is 14.9 or 420 Colossus or another caliber. And yes, your knowledge about building wildcats is 10 times better than mine. But let me share a thought with you. You are Americans. Why did the Americans fly to the moon on a rocket??? The Americans went to the moon simply because they can.

Regarding the 12.7x114mm cartridge. It may need internal changes/modifications to the cartridge. It may need a new brass alloys, or the same alloy as the 420Blitzkrieg to operate at 90-100000 psi. It may need a speical action, hugh tenon und may even a 2.5" barrel.
(If I'm right, Bartlein even has 2.5" thick ammo test barrels) And yes, it probably needs some premium components and things I didn't even think of.
But you guys aren't really telling me that it's 100% impossible to build an accurate rifle that fires a 12.7mm (750grain) projectile at 4000 fps???
maybe it takes 50" barrel to get 4000fps.

I've even seen a 416Barrett with 50" barrel. By the way, the old 15.2x168 Steyr launches a sabot projectile at 4700 fps.
The CMS 14.5x144mm also works.
But huge muzzle flash with short barrel.
(slow motion picture)

Answer your own question your self run it on quick load . It would take 140,000 plus psi .

 

[coldboreAU]

When it takes 140000 plus psi to get that performance...damn physics.
140000 plus psi, seriously? From this point my knowledge stops.
I don't even know where to start listing all the possible issues/problems that can happen at 140000 psi. I've read about some actions that are proofed up to 200000 psi but that doesn't mean you can run 200000 psi as operating pressure. I think it takes 30 minutes and a huge hammer to open the bolt after a 200000 psi shot, at least if you're lucky and the rifle didn't detonate completely.

let me stick with 140,000 psi. When action and barrel are built to run at that pressure. Then brass is the weakest part of all, it needs a solution. Now to the projectile. I don't know whether brass and copper bullets can withstand this pressure but I think lead core bullets starting to fall apart at 140000 psi. Blown primers would be next problem. Actually, i hate the word barrel life but 140000 psi is throat erosion on a new level and i don't want to say another word about it. 140000 plus psi is way more than i expected. I thought may 100000-115000 psi is enough. My bad.

But launching a 750 grain Bullet at 4000 fps is still a sweet dream for the future. Now I'm thinking yes, maybe in future it's possible but with regular brass alloy over 140000 plus psi is unrealistic.
Building a huge strong action and a huge strong barrel is not the biggest problem. Primers, brass cases are the biggest problems when you want to run as high as 140,000 psi.
What do you think about 2 to 3 piece cases?

 

[Dogtown]

But launching a 750 grain Bullet at 4000 fps is still a sweet dream for the future.

My back of the envelope calculations say that's about 35,000 joules of energy at the muzzle. "Ow, my shoulder!"

 

[brianf]

When it takes 140000 plus psi to get that performance...damn physics.
140000 plus psi, seriously? From this point my knowledge stops.
I don't even know where to start listing all the possible issues/problems that can happen at 140000 psi. I've read about some actions that are proofed up to 200000 psi but that doesn't mean you can run 200000 psi as operating pressure. I think it takes 30 minutes and a huge hammer to open the bolt after a 200000 psi shot, at least if you're lucky and the rifle didn't detonate completely.

let me stick with 140,000 psi. When action and barrel are built to run at that pressure. Then brass is the weakest part of all, it needs a solution. Now to the projectile. I don't know whether brass and copper bullets can withstand this pressure but I think lead core bullets starting to fall apart at 140000 psi. Blown primers would be next problem. Actually, i hate the word barrel life but 140000 psi is throat erosion on a new level and i don't want to say another word about it. 140000 plus psi is way more than i expected. I thought may 100000-115000 psi is enough. My bad.

But launching a 750 grain Bullet at 4000 fps is still a sweet dream for the future. Now I'm thinking yes, maybe in future it's possible but with regular brass alloy over 140000 plus psi is unrealistic.
Building a huge strong action and a huge strong barrel is not the biggest problem. Primers, brass cases are the biggest problems when you want to run as high as 140,000 psi.
What do you think about 2 to 3 piece cases?

Case is doable
Bullet is doable

Primer is a different issue../can’t make those on a lathe

 

[coldboreAU]

My back of the envelope calculations say that's about 35,000 joules of energy at the muzzle. "Ow, my shoulder!"

don't worry about recoil, just enjoy it. lol
now seriously make the rifle heavy, really heavy and use a huge muzzle brake, then your shoulder will survive. If you not shooting competitions you got no weight limit. Calibers like 12.7x144 and14.5×144 are not usable for king of two miles.
750 grain Bullet at 4000 fps= 26640 ft-lbs energy but ft-Ibs is not important for elr shooting. More important is how far a projectile can travel supersonic. I have to be honest with you guys. I absolutely do not have the capacity or expertise to build a rifle capable of running at 140000 psi. (10000 Bar)
Today, i found a better article about the 12,7x 144mm. Currently they got 3280fps, 750grain bullet, 39" barrel length. They are working on slower powder to get almost 4000 fps. If someone just want Energy (Joule/ft-Ibs), buy or build a rifle in 14.5x 144 and be happy with launching 1000 grain Bullets at 3200-3300 fps.
Of course I could be ignorant and just say I don't think it takes 140000 plus psi but (unfortunately) i think 140000 psi could be right. There are only 2 ways to really get 4000 fps with a 750 grain bullet. Much slower powder plus very long barrels or new stronger materials to run extremely high pressure. Only the future can tell what will come.

Ukrainian

The Ukrainian MAYAK arms plant has designed a new single-shot bolt-action anti-materiel rifle called Horizon's Lord ( ) chambered in a new cartridge that was specifically developed for this rifle. The cartridge is called 12.7x114HL. It is based on the 14.5x114mm case necked down to .50 caliber.

www.thefirearmblog.com

When Size Matters — Russia’s Massive 14.5×114 Cartridge « Daily Bulletin

Photo courtesy Elardus de Lang, Truvelo Manufacturers Armoury, South Africa. Believe it or not, here is a cartridge that makes a .338 Lapua Magnum look like a toy. The 14.5x114mm cartridge was designed as a MG and rifle-fired anti-materiel round. To translate from the metric system to caliber...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[badassgunworks]

Tungsten ceramic electrode plasma ignition . No problem . Already in use .

 

[coldboreAU]

Tungsten ceramic electrode plasma ignition . No problem . Already in use .

Oh my gosh... Americans a little crazy and extremely smart at the same time.
(I mean the word crazy in a nice way)
What results do you expect?
What kind of high pressure would be possible?

 

[badassgunworks]

Oh my gosh... Americans a little crazy and extremely smart at the same time.
(I mean the word crazy in a nice way)
What results do you expect?
What kind of high pressure would be possible?

Thats a conversations for a much later date

 

[Dogtown]

 

[coldboreAU]

Thats a conversations for a much later date

I hope that later date will come soon. I wish you success.

@Dogtwon I think you have to be a little crazy to think outside the box.
Some people also called Albert Einstein crazy but in the end of the day he was one of the smartest people on earth.
The same applies to the development of the atomic bomb. At the very beginning not everyone believed that it was even possible. In the end, it was proven that all those who did not believe in it were wrong. I believe the same applies to such high pressures. That's why I think one day in the future it will be possible. Whether 3 or 4 or 6 years... we'll see.

 

[Dogtown]

Einstein and the development of Atomic Bombs; two things near and dear to my heart.

 

[ELR researcher]

A real-world opportunity exists for someone to actually build a US-legal (and California-legal) .50 cal on a very large case - see https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ooling-presses-brass-set-or-part-out.6944186/ - certainly enough pieces to get your feet very wet. Very slow mil powders exist but getting enough powder in the case to make big MV numbers is an issue (per another shooter that has/had a similar project). On the primer side, no issue whatsoever - the original electric primers (new), and the associated simple firing system, have been tested and work fine. The pic in this post shows, left to right, 20mm Vulcan case (new), .50 T.W. formed and neck turned by Warner Tool (machine formed, not yet fire formed), a sample .50 T.W. empty round (as provided by the designer when I bought the reamer), and a once-fired 14.5 x 114 Russian case. I have no case capacity data for the .50 T.W., Wiki says the 14.5x114 case holds 653.6 gr of water.

BTW, I suspect all prior references in this tread to a 14.5 x 144 are meant to be 14.5 x 114.

 

[coldboreAU]

A real-world opportunity exists for someone to actually build a US-legal (and California-legal) .50 cal on a very large case - see

California legal 50 cal??? may you know better than me but i almost don't believe. I don't want to start talking about politics. But if I say what I think about California and the Biden administration... One of the staff members would ban me.

Very slow mil powders exist but getting enough powder in the case to make big MV numbers is an issue

That's the biggest issue of all, unfortunately. Not sure what to say. I saw the link and i read the posts, all.

Your post
"No data on the .50/20 Oscar - no rounds ever loaded. .50 T. W. - well north of 4000 fps with an 800 gr bullet (per the guy that sold me those reamers)."

i'm not trying to be an asshole but
did you ever seen this numbers on Chronograph (Lap Radar) with your own eyes?
Thanks for sharing the 50 T.W. link.

 

[coldboreAU]

very slow powder already exists but i assume not available to the public.

 

[n2ishun]

Thread in primers.

 

[TurboTrout]

Wasn’t there a ZA company making long range rifles that used the phalex rounds?

 

[badassgunworks]

It will never reach 4000 ft per second with a 800 grain bullet not going to happen not even close

 

[coldboreAU]

Wasn’t there a ZA company making long range rifles that used the phalex rounds?

I don't know but I'll try to do some research, let me see what I can find.

It will never reach 4000 ft per second with a 800 grain bullet not going to happen not even close

I think you are right. Just for learning, please tell me what your best guess is. What do you think is the highest muzzle velocity possible with a 12.7mm 750 grain bullet. No matter whether 12.7x144 or 50 TW. What could be possible with today's technology?
And with what pressure does your 458 goliath actually run?

 

[badassgunworks]

My guess 12.7 or 50 tw 3300 or less. The goliath is still in the devlopment stage more changes to be made. It will finalize at or about 100,000 psi

 

[ELR researcher]

California legal 50 cal??? may you know better than me but i almost don't believe. I don't want to start talking about politics. But if I say what I think about California and the Biden administration... One of the staff members would ban me.

>>>Absolutely legal in California.

That's the biggest issue of all, unfortunately. Not sure what to say. I saw the link and i read the posts, all.

Your post
"No data on the .50/20 Oscar - no rounds ever loaded. .50 T. W. - well north of 4000 fps with an 800 gr bullet (per the guy that sold me those reamers)."

i'm not trying to be an asshole

>>>Try harder. Much harder.

but
did you ever seen this numbers on Chronograph (Lap Radar) with your own eyes?

>>>You read the ad??? Read it again.

Thanks for sharing the 50 T.W. link.

 

[ELR researcher]

It will never reach 4000 ft per second with a 800 grain bullet not going to happen not even close

In your humble opinion. You know exactly nothing about the cartridge or the rifle it was shot in but you are sure "not going to happen not even close." Just buy my gear and prove it.

 

[badassgunworks]

In your humble opinion. You know exactly nothing about the cartridge or the rifle it was shot in but you are sure "not going to happen not even close." Just buy my gear and prove it.

the 20 mm case will not handle the pressure needed to push a bullet that heavy in a .510 bore. 4000 fps simple facts. i alread have build and design state of the art products and designs going backwords is not option for me. Hope the best on you sale. Good luck.

 

[TurboTrout]

>>>Absolutely legal in California.

>>>Try harder. Much harder.

>>>You read the ad??? Read it again.

Isn’t CA a part of the US?

Constitution and federalist papers are pretty clear on what’s legal.

 

[ELR researcher]

Isn’t CA a part of the US?

Constitution and federalist papers are pretty clear on what’s legal.

Take the time to read the applicable California law. Then talk to the smiths that legally build and legally sell non-.50 BMG, .50 caliber rifles in this state. And, please enlighten us by referencing, in the (US) constitution, where it prohibits .50 caliber anything? Seriously, you are totally full of dung...and its leaking out!

 

[ELR researcher]

the 20 mm case will not handle the pressure needed to push a bullet that heavy in a .510 bore. 4000 fps simple facts. i alread have build and design state of the art products and designs going backwords is not option for me. Hope the best on you sale. Good luck.

You go right ahead and believe whatever you care to. While you may be correct, you are not the guy that designed that cartridge or shot that rifle. When discussing other folks' info, bring hard data or consider not commenting. Opinion without data sucks!

 

[TurboTrout]

Take the time to read the applicable California law. Then talk to the smiths that legally build and legally sell non-.50 BMG, .50 caliber rifles in this state. And, please enlighten us by referencing, in the (US) constitution, where it prohibits .50 caliber anything? Seriously, you are totally full of dung...and its leaking out!

Actually you can legally have a M203 or a SAW per the constitution and federalist papers

 

[Bhobbs]

California specifically bans .50 BMG rifles. Anything that isn’t a .50 BMG rifle can be legal.

 

[Dan Warner]

 

[Dan Warner]

the 20 mm case will not handle the pressure needed to push a bullet that heavy in a .510 bore. 4000 fps simple facts. i alread have build and design state of the art products and designs going backwords is not option for me. Hope the best on you sale. Good luck.

Do you have first hand experience with the 20mm brass? Would love to hear about it. Not sure what it is you have against it, but would like to understand what is wrong with it.

 

[ELR researcher]

California specifically bans .50 BMG rifles. Anything that isn’t a .50 BMG rifle can be legal.

I believe that .50 cal (.510) is the maximum you can legally purchase. So a pure 20mm Vulcan-based firearm, or 14.5-114-based firearm would be illegal. Muzzleloaders can be larger than .50 cal., unclear if there is a cap on muzzleloader caliber.

 

[badassgunworks]

I have the few pieces of 20 mm brass. Years ago I cross-sections and reviewed the idea a wildcatting on it. I have nothing against the 20 mm case. But it is still subject to the same laws of any other case similar by symmetric design. As you well know just like any other cartridge the material that it is made out of. The capacity of the case. The bore diameter the case. Wall thickness and the Anvil thickness.the size of the primer. Flash hole size. corner radious and design. All equate to limits by design and thise designs are related to bore diamiter. So simply shortening and necking down you end up with simular linear projections. Again there is nothing wrong what's a 20 mm case. I hope that in the future you can finish up the project and make it work to the best of its ability which I know you can if anyone can

 

[Bhobbs]

I believe that .50 cal (.510) is the maximum you can legally purchase. So a pure 20mm Vulcan-based firearm, or 14.5-114-based firearm would be illegal. Muzzleloaders can be larger than .50 cal., unclear if there is a cap on muzzleloader caliber.

California allows up to .60 caliber, so the 14.5mm would be ok.

What I meant is any .50 caliber round, other than .50 BMG, isn’t regulated. Some people adopted .510 DTC because it’s just a modified .50 BMG but isn’t regulated as .50 BMG.