You are absolutely right. Sometimes i write too fast.... or my deeper mind knows 144 is longer than 114... maybe my deeper mind likes long cartridges. LOL (i'm just kidding)
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12.7x114mm...
- Thread starter coldboreAU
- Start date
i know what you are talking about. But at least in my mind, it works like this: get very strong brass, get a strong action, get a strong barrel and just try it. If it not work, make changes until it will work.
of course I know that too much powder capacity combined with too fast burning powder and you get pressure issues. You cannot fully use the powder capacity because the pressure would be too high.
Take a look at the 30mm and 40mm Canons. They work very well with military propellants. I can't see why it should not work when using the right powder but anyway, this thread starts to go in circles.
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Hey Dan! Like I said, “I wish I still had the Lahti that I rebuilt to play with it and shoot it. It is/was pretty cool!”
I did have a single shot 50bmg bolt as well. Just didn’t shoot it enough as well as where I could shoot it at least at a public range wise…nothing I couldn’t do with my other guns.
The other thing that would’ve been cool is to see where/what the 12.7x114 could‘ve done was with barrel life wise and performance wise. Back when I did it there was no such thing as ELR around. My interest in it was primarily to get the Lahti back up and running with out going down the road to reactivate it as a DD. I was even really close to removing the rear iron sight from the mount and was going to make my own scope mount for it so I could shoot it more precisely and see what it could do accuracy wise. Believe me with ELR coming about…and I still had the gun….it would’ve gotten the dust polished off of that rifle and seen the light of day more.
Give me a shout when you have time.
Later, Frank
would love to hear how duplex load works. Is it something like loading fast powder first and then slower powder on top of it? So that the large amount of powder is ignited better?
Yes you have it correct. Even the 20x138b solothurn round from the factory is a duplex type load. Main charge in a sack sat on top of a smaller charge in a sack against the primer.
I know of duplex loads but know nothing about doing it. You better know what the hell your doing before you start playing with duplex loads. Simple as that.
Later, Frank
To the end of the thread. To all who have read this so far. Please NOTE:
it was never my intention here to cause trouble. It was also not my intention to create disagreement between the major players. Do I own any of the following cartridges? NO!!!
375 Warner, 416 Warner, 416 Colossus, 20/50, 12.7x114, 14.9 SOP. I do not own them and i can not judge them. Because I have no first hand experience with these large cartridges. I can only say what I think and try to get some data from the major players.
And now @ the major players. Thanks to everyone who replied and gave me some data. I appreciate it. Please continue your work and your developments. I am looking forward to what will come in the next few years.
it was never my intention here to cause trouble. It was also not my intention to create disagreement between the major players. Do I own any of the following cartridges? NO!!!
375 Warner, 416 Warner, 416 Colossus, 20/50, 12.7x114, 14.9 SOP. I do not own them and i can not judge them. Because I have no first hand experience with these large cartridges. I can only say what I think and try to get some data from the major players.
And now @ the major players. Thanks to everyone who replied and gave me some data. I appreciate it. Please continue your work and your developments. I am looking forward to what will come in the next few years.
Thank you for starting this thread and I wish it would continue, you have some of the best of the best here that got involved and not all agree with others but all are extremely experienced in different ways and many with actual hands on. This same conversation has happened in the past and creates the level in industry to be pushed to the next stage. Every one here with view points from different angles, opens minds and options or ideas to push forward. This is what makes ELR push forward
Jeff Heeg
Jeff Heeg
if you really want i can continue, but not far at all. Got anyone experience on WC 890 powder? I will post later more on it.
Don’t know much on the WC 890 powder hopefully someone will chime in who has some experience with it.
JH
WC872 is very similar to 20N29 speed wise. We tested it in the 375WTC. It was too slow for that one. Most of what you have on that list is not available for retail sale here in the US unless you find a dealer selling pull down stuff.
@ Dan Warner
yes, most of the listed powders are not available to the public, unfortunately. I do believe a few guys would consider to larger wildcats, at least if the right powder would be available.
@all
Let me continue my thoughts way too far. (Note, numbers are not real, it's just an example) Let's say a major manufactur makes slower powder. Now, anyone who wants can neck down 20mm to what ever(15,14,13,12mm...) because slower powder is avalible for use. Let's say rifle specs: 52" long barrel, action 2.5" thick, weight 80+Ib. So let me continue the idea. In 5-7 years people want more. Somebody get a great idea. "Hey let's neck down 30mm to 17mm or what ever" ohh wait it would take slower powder, again. Okay don't worry, a major manufactur makes slower powder, again. So specs, 3.5" action, 65" barrel, weight 150+Ib. Now, you need a forklift or crane to transport your rifle. I want to say i see the end of the road. That's the reason, higher operating pressure will be necessary to make the cartridges perform better without going larger and larger in size.
I'm not talking about the 14.9 or any other cartridge specifically. I also know talking about neck down 30mm cartridges is just crazy talk but it was just an example to show how the road ends.
yes, most of the listed powders are not available to the public, unfortunately. I do believe a few guys would consider to larger wildcats, at least if the right powder would be available.
@all
Let me continue my thoughts way too far. (Note, numbers are not real, it's just an example) Let's say a major manufactur makes slower powder. Now, anyone who wants can neck down 20mm to what ever(15,14,13,12mm...) because slower powder is avalible for use. Let's say rifle specs: 52" long barrel, action 2.5" thick, weight 80+Ib. So let me continue the idea. In 5-7 years people want more. Somebody get a great idea. "Hey let's neck down 30mm to 17mm or what ever" ohh wait it would take slower powder, again. Okay don't worry, a major manufactur makes slower powder, again. So specs, 3.5" action, 65" barrel, weight 150+Ib. Now, you need a forklift or crane to transport your rifle. I want to say i see the end of the road. That's the reason, higher operating pressure will be necessary to make the cartridges perform better without going larger and larger in size.
I'm not talking about the 14.9 or any other cartridge specifically. I also know talking about neck down 30mm cartridges is just crazy talk but it was just an example to show how the road ends.
We've considered doing a 30mm wild cat but it is a component road block. No one makes 30mm out of brass, I believe it is all steel..
Correct me if I'm wrong here. But that means a whole different methodology of case work up and prep. Reloadability becomes difficult, cumbersome and almost impossible. That alone takes the idea off the table for most. There are other ways to skin the cat, but still quite costly and unattractive to most.
Correct me if I'm wrong here. But that means a whole different methodology of case work up and prep. Reloadability becomes difficult, cumbersome and almost impossible. That alone takes the idea off the table for most. There are other ways to skin the cat, but still quite costly and unattractive to most.
Just curious. Instead of chasing ever larger cases and projectiles, has anyone recently tried to engineer a quality sabot type system to fire .375, .426,.510, etc. projectiles in a current high capacity case like the 114 or Vulcan? Seems like it would be a good way to increase velocity and effective range.
@Dan Warner
I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who has thoughts on 30mm wildcats. Most people would say I'm crazy to thinking about it. You're right it would require a whole new set of components.
@Bandit320
The problem with sabot bullets, they are not accurate. If you just want to punch holes through steel plates then sabot bullets are fine but not for accuracy.
I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who has thoughts on 30mm wildcats. Most people would say I'm crazy to thinking about it. You're right it would require a whole new set of components.
@Bandit320
The problem with sabot bullets, they are not accurate. If you just want to punch holes through steel plates then sabot bullets are fine but not for accuracy.
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Thanks for the response. I know the ones the used to sell weren’t very accurate. I thought, probably incorrectly, that they used the sabot round and it was accurate. I had something like that could be scaled down. As a bit of background I’m not a artillery type of guy, I used guide mistakes and free fall weapons.
@Dan Warner
30mm brass should not really be the main problem. Why not just consider making your own brass. Making brass the same way as World War 2 i don't really like. You (Warner tool company) are making high quality copper bullets on a CNC lathe. I know very well how precise CNC machines are. The right machine should be able to do anything you want, even brass.
30mm brass should not really be the main problem. Why not just consider making your own brass. Making brass the same way as World War 2 i don't really like. You (Warner tool company) are making high quality copper bullets on a CNC lathe. I know very well how precise CNC machines are. The right machine should be able to do anything you want, even brass.
While its certainly possible, its a matter of cost, demand and economy of scale. We're so busy barely keeping up with current workload, new products such as this would require significant demand. And it would still require post cut process; forming shoulder and neck, and annealing. I'm sure we already have the necessary equipment to handle it, but there really isn't anyone beating on our door looking for it. If the knocking starts, the minimum commitment would not be small.
It would probably be more cost effective to have rcc make the brass since they are already setup for that.
I think anything that has to do with 30mm cartridges is too soon.
Step by step. I have not yet seen a 20mm wildcat that is fully developed and available to public but i think it will come.
Wildcats based on 30mm cases. I got the right powder with the correct burn rate... it's called wood chips LOL
Step by step. I have not yet seen a 20mm wildcat that is fully developed and available to public but i think it will come.
Wildcats based on 30mm cases. I got the right powder with the correct burn rate... it's called wood chips LOL
@jasent
Jason you are of course welcome to share your thoughts. Dan Warner has more knowledge and more experience than me. But seriously we are talking about 30MM, how to make it work?
To what diameter do you want to neck down the cartridge? 17,18mm? Don't get me wrong, I love huge powerful cartridges but as long as no one makes ultra extremely slow powder... it will not work and even with extremely slow powder, it will produce very high pressure. A reliable platform that works at high pressure would be required.
Not to mention that over 97% case filling would be fine. Keep in mind we are talking about wildcating this.
I guess that is around 1000 grain powder capacity. Note, I don't want to say a bad word about Warner but I think there are limits.
Jason you are of course welcome to share your thoughts. Dan Warner has more knowledge and more experience than me. But seriously we are talking about 30MM, how to make it work?
To what diameter do you want to neck down the cartridge? 17,18mm? Don't get me wrong, I love huge powerful cartridges but as long as no one makes ultra extremely slow powder... it will not work and even with extremely slow powder, it will produce very high pressure. A reliable platform that works at high pressure would be required.
Not to mention that over 97% case filling would be fine. Keep in mind we are talking about wildcating this.
I guess that is around 1000 grain powder capacity. Note, I don't want to say a bad word about Warner but I think there are limits.
Just in case your post refers to 30mm bullet diameter and smaller case. I do not see the purpose.
I think you was talking about necking down 30mm cases. (Wildcating 30mm cases)
This would perhaps be your barrel. LOL
I think you was talking about necking down 30mm cases. (Wildcating 30mm cases)
This would perhaps be your barrel. LOL
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30mm wild cat is way over my head. Would be interesting to shorten the case and neck it down to 20 or so. If you could get a hold of some very slow take down powder. Maybe 60” barrel
Necking down cartridge like the 30x173mm is a bit of ultimate madness.
I 'm not interested in tanks and howitzers BUT i like the idea of putting cannon calibers in a bolt action rifle. But I think there are (unfortunately) limits. Cartridges actually needs more pressure to perform better. I know it is a mixture of pressure, volume and duration. The 30x173 Nato cartridge fires 5601 grain heavy bullets at 3510 fps. Powder charge 2314 grain propellant. Chamber pressure is just between 50,000 and 56,000 psi depending on ammunition. This performance at low pressure sounds pretty well. Do I think a 30mm wild cat is possible? I don't know but I wish yes. But what it would take is simple. The smartest and biggest companies would have to work together. Then maybe the magic would happen.
@jasent
Agreed, unfortunately... 30x173mm is an overkill. A 23x115 cartridge necked down to 18mm sounds may more realistic. I have even seen brass cases. Not the old steel crap. Please note. When I say may/might be realistic, i mean a completely new case design, a new system and much more. Not much would be left of the original case design. Second note, I know very well it is easy for me to say build cartridge XY, neck it down to XY mm but the really knowledgeable guys have to deal with math, physics, internal and external ballistics to develop such a wild cat.
I dont have to deal with all that stuff.
Agreed, unfortunately... 30x173mm is an overkill. A 23x115 cartridge necked down to 18mm sounds may more realistic. I have even seen brass cases. Not the old steel crap. Please note. When I say may/might be realistic, i mean a completely new case design, a new system and much more. Not much would be left of the original case design. Second note, I know very well it is easy for me to say build cartridge XY, neck it down to XY mm but the really knowledgeable guys have to deal with math, physics, internal and external ballistics to develop such a wild cat.
I dont have to deal with all that stuff.
Do any of you guys own a truvelo rifle?
And can someone please tell me what is going on with the truvelo company? Is the company still alive? Truvelo's website only says "coming soon".
And can someone please tell me what is going on with the truvelo company? Is the company still alive? Truvelo's website only says "coming soon".
They have not been paying the phone bill for a couple of years now. That's why Dan, myself and jon are going down other paths.
@ Alan Warner
Thanks for reply. I can not understand at all that the truvelo company manufactures a 20mm actions and then does not sell it to the public. Maybe Truvelo does not need money or the company is a charity... Anyway, you will find a way to reach your goal.
Thanks for reply. I can not understand at all that the truvelo company manufactures a 20mm actions and then does not sell it to the public. Maybe Truvelo does not need money or the company is a charity... Anyway, you will find a way to reach your goal.
Thanks for posting the image but I don't know what 30mm Dan Warner was talking about. There are so many different 30mm cartridges. As long as Dan Warner does not say more about it, I can only guess. Would I like such a wild cat? Yes. Do I think such a wild cat is realistic? No
That is all I have to say about it....
That is all I have to say about it....
So firstly, I call it pretty ignorant when some people trigger me and then don't tell me what exactly they are talking about.
So there are already different rifles in 20mm, 23mm and even 30mm. Most of them are ugly and built in countries far away. To anyone who is concerned about the recoil. There is always a way to handle recoil. Just look at the image below. No matter if 20mm,23mm or 15mm,17mm,18mm wild cats, all it takes is a lot of money. In theory, step one, pay $$$ to a company that develops a premium 20mm action. Step two, pay $$$ to an smart engineer to develop a new 17mm elr cartridge. To keep it simple, now it only takes custom brass, custom bullets, primers, the right powder, a hugh 52" barrel and a chassi. So, I can't see a problem that can't be fixed with money.
Unfortunately no one wants to spend a million and most people do not have millions of $$$$.
So there are already different rifles in 20mm, 23mm and even 30mm. Most of them are ugly and built in countries far away. To anyone who is concerned about the recoil. There is always a way to handle recoil. Just look at the image below. No matter if 20mm,23mm or 15mm,17mm,18mm wild cats, all it takes is a lot of money. In theory, step one, pay $$$ to a company that develops a premium 20mm action. Step two, pay $$$ to an smart engineer to develop a new 17mm elr cartridge. To keep it simple, now it only takes custom brass, custom bullets, primers, the right powder, a hugh 52" barrel and a chassi. So, I can't see a problem that can't be fixed with money.
Unfortunately no one wants to spend a million and most people do not have millions of $$$$.
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I am the last one that should comment on this subject but i will. There is always a risk in time and expence in devlopment of such a platform and idea with hope's that it works out well. But its worth it if one truly believes in the possable end results. Each person owes themself to do the reseach fully. from practical aspects of marketing and function. I personally believe if the warners put there heart and mind to it thay will figure it out and make it work to its best. And do a great job of making it attractive. Never discredit warner tool and gage. There like everyones devlopment and research is propriatory and they have no obligations to reveal there work. Reguardless of how how much i or any one else would like to know. Now considering everything . Its not my direction or vision. that does not make it wrong . my suggestion is wait and see.
Yes and No. Never tell someone who is hopeless addicted to big bore calibers "we have econsidered doing a 30mm wild cat" without letting him know what (patent) case you had in mind. The selection is huge from 30x113B to 30x228mm. So for a better example, if someone tells me he has B2 stealth jet in his backyard, then he should not be surprised that I ask questions.
Badassgunworks, the previous post was not about you. You know very well what I think about you.
Badassgunworks, the previous post was not about you. You know very well what I think about you.
Call me what you will. I'm sure I've been called worse by better or better by worse. I fail to understand how I'm obligated to tell you anything. If there was more that was shareable, then I would have already done so in a much more public and professional release. If you'd like to fund a build for yourself, then you can own the information that goes with it and publicize it as you choose.
I’ve tried to follow this thread, but it’s getting a bit long and I forget. What large ELR rifle/cartridges do own and shoot or have owned/shot?
@Dan Warner
Yes, you are right about not being obliged to tell me anything. Nevertheless, your comment about 30mm got me thinking, maybe even more than I wanted. Data published is another topic. The point is I know very well when I better keep my mouth closed. Building my own stuff is also slightly different, if you mean building wild cats and then in size 15mm upwards. No way and not now. Someone I had misjudged at the beginning of this thread proved to me that developing your own cartridges requires more knowledge than I currently have, especially if we talk about high pressure. I don't even know if I will know that much when I am 30 years old in 6 years but I love it when someone shows me a few tricks and teaches me things.
Yes, you are right about not being obliged to tell me anything. Nevertheless, your comment about 30mm got me thinking, maybe even more than I wanted. Data published is another topic. The point is I know very well when I better keep my mouth closed. Building my own stuff is also slightly different, if you mean building wild cats and then in size 15mm upwards. No way and not now. Someone I had misjudged at the beginning of this thread proved to me that developing your own cartridges requires more knowledge than I currently have, especially if we talk about high pressure. I don't even know if I will know that much when I am 30 years old in 6 years but I love it when someone shows me a few tricks and teaches me things.
