155 or 185 for 308 to 1k

[07yzryder]

So Im going to be shooting some matches that push to 1k. My rifle is a 308 with a 19inch Krieger 1:10 barrel. would i be better off with the heavier 185 to buck the wind or pushing the faster 155? Any idea on loads needed to make the shot?

reason i looked at the 185 over the 175 is i hear they are a bit better with the wind, open to 175s still.

Brass:lapua
Primer: CCI 200
powder: RL 15 or Varget


Thanks
Robert

 

[Baddog0302]

You didn't mention the type of weapon [bolt ,or , gas ] you are using, if I remember correctly the 155's need to be driven to 3000 FPS to stay supersonic out to 1000. That might be a chore with a 19" bbl.

 

[07yzryder]

You didn't mention the type of weapon [bolt ,or , gas ] you are using, if I remember correctly the 155's need to be driven to 3000 FPS to stay supersonic out to 1000. That might be a chore with a 19" bbl.

sorry its a rem 700.

 

[390fe]

A heavier bullet will have a higher bc, and will handle the wind better.

 

[07yzryder]

155.5 G1 .464 G7.237
175 G1 .510 G7 .259
185 G1 .560 G7 .283

those are the BCs of the bullets im looking at, i knew the heavier bullets would buck the wind better just curious about making it to 1k just wanted to know bullet choice for the lighter bullet, and possibly powder.

 

[SWRichmond]

If its a 1/12 twist, I doubt you will be able to adequately stabilize the 185's.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

 

[07yzryder]

If its a 1/12 twist, I doubt you will be able to adequately stabilize the 185's.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

i had it made with a 1:10 with the intent to shoot heavier pills. Someone else told me i should look into the 155s for LR over the 175/185 so i figure i would ask some people with experience.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

I've shot a lot of 185gr Scenars out of my 26" Savage 10FP LE2b and can get them to group well, but I don't get to shoot 1k too often, so I haven't banged hard on getting them to fly as fast as I might.

This being said, you need to figure out what you can get them up to while still having them group well for you.

No sense shooting a high BC bullet if you can't get them to group, or you can't get them up to a speed to make it to 1k and still be accurate.

BC ain't everything.

Use JBM and crunch the numbers for each weight using a realistic velocity for your weapon and then compare the numbers.

Cheating doesn't help.

If one is superior to the other, buy a box and see if you can get to the velocity that you used in the program and check out how they shoot on paper.

Chris

 

[missed]

For your barrel and twist the 185's or 175's will be a better choice. I really like the 155's but they really need the 12" twist barrel and 3k fps. When I go to the shorter 500yrd matches I bring the 28" 12" twist barrel and shoot the 155's as I can get them to shoot better, but for the 1000 I have been shooting the 185g hybrids with my 10" twist 24" barrel.

 

[Lowlight]

If you use 2000MR you might be able to push either one fast enough to be useful in the shorter barrel. I get conservatively 2700fps out of a Berger 185gr with my 22" AE. It's a lighter load with room to grow.

BCs are dependent on MV, you can't look up a BC for a bullet and then cut that MV way down and expect to get the same thing as advertised. It's why we don't shoot the heaviest bullet made, but the heaviest bullet we can successfully send downrange fast enough to take advantage of that advertised BC.

BCs are generally determined at a speed of 2800fps or higher, so if you cut 400fps + out of that MV you're not gonna get that speed and hence the BC will be less.

Consider the Banding or Stepped BCs, like with the 175gr ... we don't use the advertised .505 because they aren't going over 2800fps we use .496 or .485, why, because those bullets are usually pushed at 2600fps, there is a clue in that.

 

[MitchAlsup]

My 155 Scenar loads will get to 1200y supersonically, 1300y with a bit of altitude help.

 

[immelmann]

My TRG 26in 308 with Dyer / Optimus 155gr projectile roughly 2910ft/s I have got 4/5 hits on torso Type E at 1100m and torso IDPA at 1236m in competition.

 

[Guest]

I was making repeated hits on a 12" plate at 800yds and on a 24" gong at 1000 with my 14.5" POF P308 a few weeks ago with this load.

175smk
1xHornady Match Brass
CCI BR2
44.3gr Varget
2.265 ogive

Chrono at 2483fps

 

[Road_Clam]

I've shot 155's out to 600, and the deciding factor is the wind on that day. No wind or light wind is not a problem, however cross wind of say >6 mph will start to push a 155 off substantially. I'm noticing this even more of a factor now that the air is getting colder (colder more dense air wind is pushing my shots further off than say in the hotter months of June). Where i'm shooting to 600 yds with a 12 twist .308 R700, my fav bullet wt is 168's.

 

[Downzero]

For your barrel and twist the 185's or 175's will be a better choice. I really like the 155's but they really need the 12" twist barrel and 3k fps. When I go to the shorter 500yrd matches I bring the 28" 12" twist barrel and shoot the 155's as I can get them to shoot better, but for the 1000 I have been shooting the 185g hybrids with my 10" twist 24" barrel.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the 155s will only work in a 1 in 12. The 155 Palma bullets from both Sierra and Lapua are actually longer than a 175 SMK.

It is true that Palma shooters use a 13 twist to stabilize them, but I see no reason why any rifle that can stabilize the 175 SMK won't also shoot the 155s.

I have been using the 155s for the last 6 years and I think I'm going to switch back to the 175 SMK or 178 Hornady, though. The ogive design on the Lapua Scenar doesn't shoot as well from mag length in my rifle as the 175 SMK.

 

[missed]

I never said they wouldn't stabilize. I have shot a bunch of them out of my 10" twist barrel. But I couldn't get 3000fps at 800' elevation with a 10" twist barrel, I can with my 12" twist. That is why most of the palma guys shoot 12-13" twist is to help keep the speed up.

 

[supercorndogs]

If its a 1/12 twist, I doubt you will be able to adequately stabilize the 185's.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

did you check yourself a 1 in 12 will do a 185 208 or 220 nosler hpbt. in fact according to the calculator the stability factor is higher for the 208 and 220 than the 185. it is over 2 for the 220. at 1 in 16 you still have marginal stability. i dont think you can find that twist rate for a 30 cal. whats the difference it is harder to push a bullet down a 1 in 10 barrel than a 1 in 12. what is the practical application i have no fucking idea. but i have always wondered what the point of a 1 in 10 308 is. i know what the advertisements say. but crunch the numbers and a 1 in 12 will do any bullet a 308 can. even a 240 smk will be stable from a 1 in 12 down to 1050fps. except for it has passed back from being supersonic.

 

[Aimsmall55]

If it were me, I'd be shooting the 185 juggernaut , with pp2000mr just to get a bit more speed. If your rifle doesn't like it , try cfe223. If your still not getting the accuracy nodes, try varget and IMR 4064. They are slower ofcourse , but great powders. I found an EXCELLENT load with a 178 amax, 42.0 IMR 4064, Lapua brass, fgm210m, at 2.230 to ogive. Fire formed brass with shoulder bumped 2/1000"s and a .334 bushing.
Each rifle is different but 42.0 IMR 4064 seems to be the "IT" load for 175 grain bullets. Found this out from Sean Little of Vapor Trail Tactical , whom helped test and "update " the M118LR. He's a Veteran Marine Scout Sniper, and does a lot at Quantico still. After talking to him I decided to try it out.... Results speak for themselves.


I also have another load with the 185 juggernaut. 47 grains of PP2000mr, lapua brass , fgm210m. 2.215 to ogive. 2830 fps average. With a 100 yard zero , depending on atmospheric conditions, I'm only at 28.5 moa at 1k. Subsonic at 1340 yards. With. G7 .283
The 178 amax load is about 2715 fps and is subsonic at just under 1100 yards with the G7. However , they seem to shoot better at 600 yards and in. I guess the 185 juggernaut really shines past 700 yards. At 1 k, the 185 (other than wind) is RELATIVELY EASY to hit with. But man that 178 shoots great!
Oh, one more thing, H4895 is also another great powder for the heavies. And don't over look the 208 amax.
Here's both the 185 at 2500fps and the 208 amax at 2385. Using G7's for both. This is just an example but it shows that even going that slow the 208 is BAD. This is both bullets with a 10 mph wind at 3 o'clock.

 

[dauntedfuture]

Make sure you crono your ammo before you settle on a load. You need to be supersonic at 1000. the 185's will buch the wind better. At the end of the day a 19" barrel is not the best thing for 1000 shooting due to the loss of velocity.

 

[07yzryder]

Thanks for all the tips, I dot have access to 2000Mr but can grab some cfe223 to test. I'll definitely be chronicling the load hopefully I can find a high node that groups well.

Also didn't know that bc is MV dependant, I learn something new everyday here.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

did you check yourself a 1 in 12 will do a 185 208 or 220 nosler hpbt. in fact according to the calculator the stability factor is higher for the 208 and 220 than the 185. it is over 2 for the 220. at 1 in 16 you still have marginal stability. i dont think you can find that twist rate for a 30 cal. whats the difference it is harder to push a bullet down a 1 in 10 barrel than a 1 in 12. what is the practical application i have no fucking idea. but i have always wondered what the point of a 1 in 10 308 is. i know what the advertisements say. but crunch the numbers and a 1 in 12 will do any bullet a 308 can. even a 240 smk will be stable from a 1 in 12 down to 1050fps. except for it has passed back from being supersonic.

You make it sound so 'absolute' and I don't know if it always is? Not entirely on point, but slower twists do affect bullet stability at times, but to be sure, one would have to know by getting out and firing the heavies.

Savage 12 VLP .22-250 1:12" 26" tube, David Tubb FF 80gr SMKs at 25 yds.:

I read some championship shooter, or writer state that it's 'always better to over stabilize a bullet, than to under stabilize it.'

Don't the shapes all look pretty?

Chris

 

[07yzryder]

You make it sound so 'absolute' and I don't know if it always is? Not entirely on point, but slower twists do affect bullet stability at times, but to be sure, one would have to know by getting out and firing the heavies.

Savage 12 VLP .22-250 1:12" 26" tube, David Tubb FF 80gr SMKs at 25 yds.:

I read some championship shooter, or writer state that it's 'always better to over stabilize a bullet, than to under stabilize it.'

Don't the shapes all look pretty?

Chris

is that the choreography to a new dance? Is the 25 yards part correct? figure they would stabilize for a few yards at least..

I heard the same thing, it is possible to over stabilize a bullet but highly unlikely, vs under stabilize and you get tumbling.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

That was a brand new rifle, never fired but for 30 FF coated bullets and there was no scope or sights on it, at that time. I just sited down the barrel with the key-holing ones you see. The other holes were from my new LE2b Savage, which had a scope and was shooting the FF bullets, as well.

Back a few years when the 208 AMAX were en vogue, lots of guys had trouble stabilizing them with 1:10" twists, unless they were shooting above a certain altitude (4000',) so things aren't as cut and dry vis-a-vis 'slower' twists and the longer bullets.

Chris

 

[dauntedfuture]

Years ago the conventional logic was that a 1-13" was optimal for a 155 SMK (2155). Apparently several tests were done and the 1-13 produced the best results. With a more appropriate twist the bullet is more likely to "nose over" and the result is a slightly increased BC as well as less wear on the barrel from a slower twist. 1-7 .223 barrels do wear out quicker then 1-12 varmint barrels so there might be something to it; remember that most people were shooting 1-10 or 1-12 in a .308 at that time. I don't think there is much a difference between 1-13 and 1-12, but I am confident that there was some proven advantage. With this said, there are several shooters that have shot, still shoot, and do very well with 155s in 1-10 barrels and they work just fine. You are better off with a shorter throat if you want to shoot 155s.

The 1-13 barrels that we are talking about are also tight bore barrels meaning that the bores are undersized. This undersized bore helps to shoot MIL ball bullets better, and generate a little more pressure then a normal DIA bore.

You are always better over stabilizing a bullet then understabilising it as off-axis bullets don't fly that well. You can spin a bullet too fast and it will come apart so there are extremes at both ends of the spectrum.

Reference the comments about 240g bullets in a .308. I only know one guy that was shooting 240g bullets in a .308 and he had a 1-7 or 1-8 twist barrel.

 

[07yzryder]

ok so then can someone give me a ball park of the MV needed to reach 1k with the 175/185gr projectiles. Density altitude today is 3849 ft.

Once i hav this ill do some testing and see if i can even hit those velocities with varget. if not ill start shopping i know a local shop has cfe223 so i might try a lb of that.

 

[29aholic]

FWIW I chose my 20" SPS tactical over the same gun in the AAC because of the 1:12 twist vs 1:10. I have been playing back and forth with 155's and 175's to see what works best at the longer ranges. I am following a theory that I can make up for barrel length by running the 155's, but at the same time I want to see the down range differences between the two. I am not particularly concerned with what my come ups have to be as I have plenty of room for elevation, but more interested in getting there accurately.
Now throw in the fact I just got a killer deal on a thousand 175 smk's I thought well shit, just work with those. Well kiss my ass if I didn't get a killer deal on at least that many 155 Palma smk's SO we are back to square one.

I don't know, I guess I might shoot them both and choose the round I am going to shoot that day based on conditions.
Life was so much easier at 300yds and under.

 

[supercorndogs]

You make it sound so 'absolute' and I don't know if it always is? Not entirely on point, but slower twists do affect bullet stability at times, but to be sure, one would have to know by getting out and firing the heavies.

Savage 12 VLP .22-250 1:12" 26" tube, David Tubb FF 80gr SMKs at 25 yds.:

I read some championship shooter, or writer state that it's 'always better to over stabilize a bullet, than to under stabilize it.'

Don't the shapes all look pretty?

Chris

30 cal bullets and twist rates are not the same as 22 cal bullets and twist rates. i am not saying a 1 in 10 or whatever you chose is bad. i have over revved bullets and they hit the target or not in pieces. but i have never done it with a 30 cal. i dont believe over stabilization is possible. optimum twist rates go back to artillery when you needed the projectile to land nose down. although i could see how the faster spin and tendency to nose up might hurt the BC a little

 

[MitchAlsup]

JBM says that the 175 SMK goes Mach (1.0) at just over 1000 yards at 3849 feet altitude STP from a MV=2550 (that is not even pushed hard).
Most 175 LR shooters can get into the 2625-2650 range, a few even over 2700.

 

[Aimsmall55]

JBM says that the 175 SMK goes Mach (1.0) at just over 1000 yards at 3849 feet altitude STP from a MV=2550 (that is not even pushed hard).
Most 175 LR shooters can get into the 2625-2650 range, a few even over 2700.

I was getting 2770 with Powerpro2000mr and a 175 smk out of a 22" Bartlein on a GAP Crusader 1:11.25

 

[Road_Clam]

You make it sound so 'absolute' and I don't know if it always is? Not entirely on point, but slower twists do affect bullet stability at times, but to be sure, one would have to know by getting out and firing the heavies.

Savage 12 VLP .22-250 1:12" 26" tube, David Tubb FF 80gr SMKs at 25 yds.:

I read some championship shooter, or writer state that it's 'always better to over stabilize a bullet, than to under stabilize it.'

Don't the shapes all look pretty?

Chris

This looks like a game of "Battleship" gone horribly wrong...

 

[ivel_86]

In


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[07yzryder]

Once I get the rifle back from LRI ill do some ladder work with chrono and see if its even possible to hit those velocities in the rifle. In the mean time ill read the manual on the CED m2 chrono cause i have no clue how to use the features and have been writing down the velocities lol.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

This looks like a game of "Battleship" gone horribly wrong...

What kind of damage do you think that those would do to us if we were hit by them? They were supposed to be loaded more slowly, so at the bottom end of the scale, but still probably 2500 fps? I obviously didn't chrono them.

Chris

 

[supercorndogs]

19 inch barrel i bet the 175s. the 155s need about 3000fps to make 1000

 

[07yzryder]

i got some 175s loaded to 45gr varget from my old barrel ill throw downrange over the chrono along with a ladder test of 185s and see where i stand.

thanks for the tips.

 

[MitchAlsup]

the 155s need about 3000fps to make 1000

The <good> 155s will reach 1300 with 3000 fps. Now it is true that the 155 (2155) SMKs did need almost 3000 fps to reach 1000 yards, but the modern high BC 155s don't.

 

[haroldwilson]

2730 fps for a 185 is a good goal. It will keep you at mach 1.2 at 1000 in just about any altitude at any temp. If you don't think you will shoot at a lower altitude or in cold temps, run JBM and see what it says to stay at 1.2 at your altitude and temps.

 

[berms03]

I was in the same boat you were looking at, I was using a Savage 1:12 30" heavy palma and was undecided between the 155 and 190 in my case. I was able to stabilize the 190s in a 30 inch barrel. It really depends on which bullet your rifle likes better, in my case my rifle shot way better with 190s then 155s. If I were you I would try both bullets, but I have a feeling 185 Bergers are going to be your best bet. Once you have your load shoot as often and learn how to read the wind

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Everyone likes to say that they can push 175s and 185s over 2700 fps, but how long is your brass gonna last? I can push a 175 SMK to 2800 fps easy, but what good is it if your brass is toast in short order?

 

[dmike]

My r700 1:12 got 175s to 800 & 900 no problem but they weren't flying right by 1000, apparently trans sonic. MV was around 2650 close to sea level.

On the other hand 178s did great at 1000 in my 1:12. And 190s. And next month I'm trying 208s.

 

[softcock]

So Im going to be shooting some matches that push to 1k. My rifle is a 308 with a 19inch Krieger 1:10 barrel. would i be better off with the heavier 185 to buck the wind or pushing the faster 155? Any idea on loads needed to make the shot?

reason i looked at the 185 over the 175 is i hear they are a bit better with the wind, open to 175s still.

Brass:lapua
Primer: CCI 200
powder: RL 15 or Varget


Thanks
Robert

-
Does anyone know what is now to being pushed/used now in F/TR class for 1-k now ? .. The 155's are really good and I had no problems lens pushing 3000 vel. with primer pockets lasting 3-firings .
Are serious competitors moving away from pushing the 155's balls to the wall ('2900 to 3100 FPS' ), , or are they moving more to 185's bullet weight ?.
.

 

[SatCong]

For your barrel and twist the 185's or 175's will be a better choice. I really like the 155's but they really need the 12" twist barrel and 3k fps. When I go to the shorter 500yrd matches I bring the 28" 12" twist barrel and shoot the 155's as I can get them to shoot better, but for the 1000 I have been shooting the 185g hybrids with my 10" twist 24" barrel.

I did 155 A-max on a steel plate and held 3 1/4'' group at 1,000 yards. By the way my barrel is a 1 in10. The wind was kind to me. The weapon was a Savage with 24'' barrel. Coming out at 2,847 FPS .

 

[missed]

I am seeing more 175's, 185 class bullets in f class. Last shoot I went to the top three spots were shooting berger 185g hybrids or juggs. The next few guys were shooting 155 bergers or scenars.

 

[Unknown]

I have an acquaintance who shoots on a very highly ranked F-class team, and one of the classifications they shoot in has them shooting 308's. When I last spoke with him, he was using 155's pushed at very high velocity. However, they were using barrels with lengths of 24-26 inches, and I think that you would not be wise to attempt those types of velocity with as short of a barrel as you plan on using...if you could even do it with a 19 inch barrel.

Also, he sorted bullets by both weight, and bearing length, sorted brass by weight, and did everything possible to eliminate any flyers, or unanticipated variables. His team shoots box stock rifles for a well known firearms company, and they believe that his care in assembling ammunition has a great deal to do with their success. I sure can't argue with his success.

 

[softcock]

I am seeing more 175's, 185 class bullets in f class. Last shoot I went to the top three spots were shooting berger 185g hybrids or juggs. The next few guys were shooting 155 bergers or scenars.

-
Thanks man. good info to know .
Most those guys I try to keep an ear to what they tend to sway and dabble in, and what they find efficient and whats the 'hard wall' to avoid hitting for load development in getting there . Really comes in handy when decision time come for Tube and Bullet-load selections on the long range fun . F/TR Don't get enough credit sometimes .
.

 

[sib1948]

I shoot Berger 185 VLDs out of 22" & 24" barrels with 1:10 twist over 43.9 gr. IMR 4064. Very pleased with performance to 1000 yards. COAL 2.86.

 

[MitchAlsup]

-
The 155's are really good and I had no problems lens pushing 3000 vel. with primer pockets lasting 3-firings .
.

I am pushing 155s at 2950 fps, and my cases (Win) are lasting 35 reload cycles!

 

[softcock]

I am pushing 155s at 2950 fps, and my cases (Win) are lasting 35 reload cycles!

-
Thats outstanding on keeping your Pockets tight and going that long . 35 reloads is what I wished for .
I was bumping 155 vlds & scenars over & above 3-K . hovering 3025 Vel.and the Lapua Brass was great shape and last for years . but Primer Pocket were toast after 3 firings . The 155's going that fast were performers and would run out to 800 yard sidexside with my 300wm with 190's going 2925 .
.

 

[MitchAlsup]

-
I was bumping 155 vlds & scenars over & above 3-K . hovering 3025 Vel.and the Lapua Brass was great shape and last for years . but Primer Pocket were toast after 3 firings
.

That is the difference the last 75 fps makes, you have pushed it beyond its <metallurgical> capabilities.
Actually, I never lost a primer pocket, but started to get body cracks and a couple of ICHS.

 

[softcock]

That is the difference the last 75 fps makes, you have pushed it beyond its <metallurgical> capabilities.
Actually, I never lost a primer pocket, but started to get body cracks and a couple of ICHS.

-
was using a 27" tube and 11-27 twist & 155 Scenars & Reloader 15 .
Popping them 3-K+ Vel. They flew great and accurate 600 & out farther to a grand but Primer pocket life sucks balls
but maybe if a guy did use the little heavier LR bullets like the .308win with 185's , but used a 30" tube length with a bit slower burn-rate like Reloader 17 or similar slower in the longer Tube . It might hold the Pocket-Pressure down enough to make a little difference when pushing them hard and I could get better brass Life ? .
.