Range Report 175 gr .308 Lapua Scenar-L

[AZ2000]

The weather finally calmed down a bit and was able to get out to the 300 yd range to test, with the following results. I started with the N540 loads and went to the AA2495 and finally Varget. First picture will be 100 yd test and second the 300yd test. They should give a pretty good indication of the dispersal going from 100 yds to 300, with the load staying the same and thinking 100yds is good for longer distances.


This first one was a big surprise.



This load still looks good, and now for the Varget.



As you can see a little more work needs to be done with the N540 and the Varget to tighten the groups up as tight as the AA2495, the scope was left at the 300 yd setting with no changes made during testing so data would be of groups, not the center of the target. As I mentioned before, I am limited by the throat depth of the chamber so I am going to try the Varget and N540 a little shorter by another .005 and .010 in OG length and see if I can tighten up the groups. As most know there will be a point that the pressure will increase and the speed will stay the same or possibly go down, I simply call it the oh no zone.

If shortening and playing with the powder a little more won't bring the groups in, I may wind up picking up a finish chamber reamer and increase the throat depth so I will be able to stretch out the OG length and start all over.

Not sure if anyone is even reading any of this, but if you are, hope it gives some of the newer shooters an idea what is really involved when building your loads and keeping your accuracy.

Like I have said before, just a box stock Savage. If anyone else wants to jump in and add any comments that can help newer shooters and add information, feel free, it won't be a hijacking of the thread.

AZ

 

[Emouse]

AZ,.....sorry for the absence as have been away last two weeks. My gut feeling on this is as you have said: the throat seems very very short ( maybe setup optimal for short 155gr pills?). Before leaping into the purchase of the services of a good gunsmith, perhaps a simple chamber cast is an idea, so you know for sure exactly what you are dealing with?

The velocities that you are sending the Scenars at, are modest and given that the Savage action is far from weak, it would seem the chambering is the weak link?

Keep us posted on progress,..this is becoming a great thread for all interested.

 

[AZ2000]

Thanks for the encouragement Emouse. I have completed all of the measurements using the Hornady bore gauge and a bore scope and am seeing nothing abnormal with all measurements coming up consistent after 5 check and rechecks. I am going to try and shorten them just a few thousands more on the OG and see what I come up with. When I first purchased it and took it out, the rifle was shooting sub moa groups out of the box with Hornady 168 match @ 100 yds. They are set @ 2.200 for an OG @ a stated 2,700 fps. I am going to go out on a limb here and say it was a 26" barrel, with mine being a 24" coming out roughly about mid to high 2,500's. This is taking a little longer than planned but feel when finished the effort will be worth the results.

Back to the chamber, using a finish reamer is a little less difficult than making all the preliminary cut's. However on the up side if I hand ream it and it really throws the poi off, guess I will have to order a new barrel from Shilen and then I know it will work just fine.

I do plan on stepping up from 300yds to 500yds and will continue to test from there until I find a load that will give me the similar group at 500 that I got at 300 with the AA2495.
After the first 4 shots with the 2495 I stopped instead of doing the normal 5 shot group, I wanted to save 6 so I would be able to do some speed test but something else came up and ran out of time
I will be using one of my camera systems I built, it saves a lot of time and you don't have to keep going out and checking the target for hit's along with the instant feed back on the poi's. I should have added a digital recording adapter to it but when I built it, they were right at $500.00 for a decent system and didn't see a need for it.

Hoping the rain will subside this coming week and can get back to testing.

A bit ironic, first no water causing fire danger and now flooding causing to much water, go figure?

AZ

 

[Emouse]

AZ,...had a look around the net regarding the Savage standard chambering: it seems many have found its on the short side (throat length) and really setup for the sierra 155 pills?

That said, instead of working to ever shorter COAL, why not see how things work touching the lands? My experience is that the Scenar L work just as well jump ans jammed. I am currently just off the lands as this helps with my minimal capacity military cases (54.3gr capacity) and sdesire to load from a magazine.

A replacement Savage barrel may be a long term option and won't break the bank. Lots of variables here but longer and maybe a tad faster is a good start point?

Hopefully I will get out and do some 900/1000yrd further testing on the "L" late this coming week.

 

[AZ2000]

Finally got a chance to go out and shoot some 500 yd tests and this is what I have came up with. Emouse I know your right about going with another barrel to get the extra chamber length so they can be stretched out and the charge rate to kick up the speed and thanks. I didn't want to re-barrel without giving this a try first to see if I can tighten up the groups with just what I have, more of a challenge than anything else. By the time I finish with all the powder, cases and bullets, plus gas I'll probably have enough money in this I could have bought a couple of nice Shilen stainless match barrels.

Well got up at 4:30 so I could beat the sun and went out and set up and tested the camera and was good to go. Only bad thing, it took a little longer than usual and got caught with the sun right in the scope even with the shade tube on, so had to wait an extra 20 minutes until it was high enough not to glare out the glass. By this time the wind went from 0 to about 8 mph. The scope was set for 500 yds using data I had for 2600 FPS, with some a little slower and some faster. As usual left the scope set at these values and did no corrections for windage or elevation while doing the tests and as you can see they went pretty much where they wanted to. When I got home, took a 5 inch circle and traced around the groups to see if they were sub moa or smaller. The best grouping was the last, after it hit about 100 degrees f and with no shade, these shots were fired very quickly to finish up and was actually the best group, especially the vertical. The horizontal was me hurrying to finish and the wind. After I got home I did some calcs and the last and best group was running @2680 fps with no pressure signs, with the rest all under 2620 fps. I didn't put down powder amounts or og lengths because they will be changing. You mentioned the 155's and your right, I decided to go with the 175's and specifically made sure the barrel had a 1-10 twist so they would work, so I am going to work that direction until I hit a wall I can't get past.

I am going to start walking up the loads by .3 grains and see where they go watching for pressure signs, hopefully I will be able to get to speed without any and then play with the lengths a little more. Hopefully within the month, should have loads for all three powders that will do 1/2 moa @ 500 yds and if they hold solid should be less than 5 to 7 inches at 1,000 and all well above supersonic. Then I'll buy the new barrel.
Next time I'll just go with one powder at a time instead of 3, probably not, won't be any fun.









AZ

 

[F4D]

Looks like your last 6 shot group is good to keep. At 2680 fps you are good to 1000 and its easier on the brass, gun, and your shoulder.

 

[Emouse]

1moa?

Sub MOA for sure,..4 inch group at 500 yards and 2680FPS.

Good effort!

Still gentle and pleasant to shoot too. Let us know what happens as you seat out and push the speeds still a little more?

;-)

 

[AZ2000]

Finally a little success. Emouse, look's like I won't need a new barrel.
Back up at 4: 30 this morning to beat Mr. Sun and get set up before the heat wave started to kick in. I know, sound like a sissy compared to what our guy's along with our allies are exposed to and going through in the middle east, and thanks guy's you are appreciated.

Any way, got set up, it was actually pretty nice in the high 70's and no wind.
Picture #1 was a load with AA2495 that I had tried before and thought was going to do fairly well, but not being sure made up some others, one of which was the results shown in picture #2 and this appears to be a keeper for that powder. As you can see I brought down the load by .2 grains of powder and shortened the OG by .010 and it appears to be running very close to the same speed by POI without changing the scope settings. This one will be a 1,000 yd trier. You will also notice I had my 1 flier, still haven't figured out where those come from?
Picture #3 is the Varget, which I increased the powder by .5 grains and lengthened the OG by .010, this one will also be a keeper for the 1,000 yd test's. A fairly good indication from both the AA2495 and Varget of what length and powder can do to your accuracy. Remember this is a box stock Savage .308 with a 24" 1-10 twist barrel.

The last picture is the N540, this is a work in progress, but there has to be a combination that will work, I just need to move forward and find it. I will post the results when I get something worth posting.

Depending on what scope you have, you may not want to use a 13/16" dot for your POA, I found the line width of the reticle was covering up the dot @ 500 yds, so it was kinda guess where the dot is when I pulled the trigger.
Now that I have found two powders that are keepers for this rifle I will take them out, do a 100yd zero for my dope and run some speed test for some exact numbers on the fps. Normally I do the speed tests while doing the load test but with the many different combo's of powders and lengths decided to hold off until I found the ones I was going to keep and just use a little math to figure out the speeds.
Looking at the poi's it look's like they should be pretty close to the same in speed. I will post them later after I finish them up.

There is a friend of mine on the board who goes by Sat Cong who has a son Sparky, who shoot's. I'm older and not real steady his son is, so once I get this set up I am going to see if I can talk him into going out and let him shoot my loads, got a feeling they will come out really well, he is an excellent shooter.

Did I mention it's supposed to rain again, in the desert?










AZ

 

[SatCong]

I have to say for a man of your advance years, that's real nice shooting. Best one's was Varget and AA2495. You got two loads working great. About the time the heat cools you well have the other one. Now do your happy dance.

 

[Emouse]

its working!

Finally a little success. Emouse, look's like I won't need a new barrel.
Back up at 4: 30 this morning to beat Mr. Sun and get set up before the heat wave started to kick in. I know, sound like a sissy compared to what our guy's along with our allies are exposed to and going through in the middle east, and thanks guy's you are appreciated.

Any way, got set up, it was actually pretty nice in the high 70's and no wind.
Picture #1 was a load with AA2495 that I had tried before and thought was going to do fairly well, but not being sure made up some others, one of which was the results shown in picture #2 and this appears to be a keeper for that powder. As you can see I brought down the load by .2 grains of powder and shortened the OG by .010 and it appears to be running very close to the same speed by POI without changing the scope settings. This one will be a 1,000 yd trier. You will also notice I had my 1 flier, still haven't figured out where those come from?
Picture #3 is the Varget, which I increased the powder by .5 grains and lengthened the OG by .010, this one will also be a keeper for the 1,000 yd test's. A fairly good indication from both the AA2495 and Varget of what length and powder can do to your accuracy. Remember this is a box stock Savage .308 with a 24" 1-10 twist barrel.

The last picture is the N540, this is a work in progress, but there has to be a combination that will work, I just need to move forward and find it. I will post the results when I get something worth posting.

Depending on what scope you have, you may not want to use a 13/16" dot for your POA, I found the line width of the reticle was covering up the dot @ 500 yds, so it was kinda guess where the dot is when I pulled the trigger.
Now that I have found two powders that are keepers for this rifle I will take them out, do a 100yd zero for my dope and run some speed test for some exact numbers on the fps. Normally I do the speed tests while doing the load test but with the many different combo's of powders and lengths decided to hold off until I found the ones I was going to keep and just use a little math to figure out the speeds.
Looking at the poi's it look's like they should be pretty close to the same in speed. I will post them later after I finish them up.

There is a friend of mine on the board who goes by Sat Cong who has a son Sparky, who shoot's. I'm older and not real steady his son is, so once I get this set up I am going to see if I can talk him into going out and let him shoot my loads, got a feeling they will come out really well, he is an excellent shooter.

Did I mention it's supposed to rain again, in the desert?










AZ

So as suggested,..a little faster and a little longer and the Varget is giving you 1/2 MOA at 500??? Thats damn good!

We got out on Friday last with perfect weather at 1000yrds (Bisley) shooting both my load at 43.5 GRS as listed before and in an SSG08 at 43grs and same COAL. Both managed consistent strikes on the 4 inch marker used on a fig 11 NATO target.

If time and range space allow we will try 1100 and 1200yrds next.

 

[AZ2000]

Look's like the rains are gone for about a week, so went out and was able to do some speed tests on the AA2495 and Varget and both are running within 40 fps of each other and calc out at around 1,300 fps for speed at 1,000 yds, which is well above supersonic, so should stay stable to distance.
AA2495 @ 2640 and the Varget @ 2600 fps average.

I also ran one quick speed test on another N540 load, just at 100 yds and it came out at 2661 fps. This one should also do well at 500yds, so will make some up, take them out, cross my fingers and spit into the West for luck and see what happens.

The one good thing with the 2495 and Varget, scope setting change is only going to be approximately 1.0 moa. This seems like a lot but not having all the high end ballistic programs, 15 degree's in ambient temperature will usually cause a 1.5 to 1 moa change in poi at 1,000 yds, depending on the humidity and ground moisture content at where I normally shoot, so it normally takes two or three shots to get on target with attention being paid to temperature.

Will post some more pictures, hopefully good, of the 500 yd test's with the N540 and hopefully they will be as accurate as the other two powders.

Emouse, if you have a chance could you post some of your target pictures and the Steyr SSG08 is super nice, what type of glass do you have on it, SB?

Bisley appears to be a very nice range, ours is just cactus and sagebrush! I'm one of those poor damn yank's.

AZ

 

[AZ2000]

Latest update, made it out to the 100yd range to do some more testing with the VV N540. Shortened this last cartridge OG by .015 " and reduced the powder load by .6 grains of powder and looks like this may be the happy bullet for the N540 powder. Hoping to get out in the early am and do some quick 500 yd testing and see were it goes. I went with the shorter length because the AA2495 and the N540 seem to be a bit hotter than the Varget, even though the charts are showing the AA2495 and N540 are slower. So much for charts on the interweb? Attached is one picture of a 4 shot group @ 100yds. Good thing is the speed of all three powders are fairly close, so am able to use the same dope for the settings from Strelok on the scope, and there is only a .25 moa difference in settings.

AZ

 

[James n TN]

Where are you guys finding the 175's at?

 

[AZ2000]

Where are you guys finding the 175's at?

Midway USA, hope this helps.

AZ

 

[James n TN]

Midway USA, hope this helps.

AZ

Thanks

 

[AZ2000]

Thanks

Try product number in the search function top left corner 1270185721

AZ

 

[Emouse]

1,000yrds and more

Look's like the rains are gone for about a week, so went out and was able to do some speed tests on the AA2495 and Varget and both are running within 40 fps of each other and calc out at around 1,300 fps for speed at 1,000 yds, which is well above supersonic, so should stay stable to distance.
AA2495 @ 2640 and the Varget @ 2600 fps average.

I also ran one quick speed test on another N540 load, just at 100 yds and it came out at 2661 fps. This one should also do well at 500yds, so will make some up, take them out, cross my fingers and spit into the West for luck and see what happens.

The one good thing with the 2495 and Varget, scope setting change is only going to be approximately 1.0 moa. This seems like a lot but not having all the high end ballistic programs, 15 degree's in ambient temperature will usually cause a 1.5 to 1 moa change in poi at 1,000 yds, depending on the humidity and ground moisture content at where I normally shoot, so it normally takes two or three shots to get on target with attention being paid to temperature.

Will post some more pictures, hopefully good, of the 500 yd test's with the N540 and hopefully they will be as accurate as the other two powders.

Emouse, if you have a chance could you post some of your target pictures and the Steyr SSG08 is super nice, what type of glass do you have on it, SB?

Bisley appears to be a very nice range, ours is just cactus and sagebrush! I'm one of those poor damn yank's.

AZ

As requested,..the SSG08 yesterday on the 1,000 yard point at Bisley, wearing an IOR scope. Another excellent day out with the 175 Scenar L's

 

[Emouse]

Another pic,..again at 1,000yard mark. Next week we will try at 1100yards, again on the fig 11 targets. At 2780fps ( from the AIAW) reaching that far should be no problem. The altitude from the FFP is just 73m above sea level.

 

[AZ2000]

Emouse, was side tracked for a bit but back to continue on. Your pictures were of some very nice sticks and seriously doubt you will have any problems at distance. Looking at the weapons and scopes I almost get the feeling you could probably just point them in the right direction, put a piece of string on the trigger and hit the target, nice. Just kidding.

Well it looks like our flash floods have gone, but am waiting for the shooting area entrance to dry out a bit and am hoping to get out this coming Monday and retest the N540 at 500 yds and if time and temp permits, try 1,000 yds with all three loads.

Hoping next post will have some decent pictures and some positive results.

If you have any pictures of your recent outing and have time, it would be nice to see them, especially of Bisley.

AZ

 

[AZ2000]

Went out Monday as scheduled and was able to do some more 500yd testing with the N540.

The first pic is a recap of the 100yd results, the second is 500 yds with the same load as from the 100yd position, on this picture is a second load which appears to have done better. I am going to retry the .165 length and also shorten two more new loads setting at .160 and .155 to see if I can get the same group size as the AA2495 and Varget or better.
Hopefully the temperature will go down a bit and allow time to set up and shoot the 1,000 yd within the next few weeks.

AZ

 

[Emouse]

Went out Monday as scheduled and was able to do some more 500yd testing with the N540.

The first pic is a recap of the 100yd results, the second is 500 yds with the same load as from the 100yd position, on this picture is a second load which appears to have done better. I am going to retry the .165 length and also shorten two more new loads setting at .160 and .155 to see if I can get the same group size as the AA2495 and Varget or better.
Hopefully the temperature will go down a bit and allow time to set up and shoot the 1,000 yd within the next few weeks.

AZ

Good results AZ! We got out as planned again this morning at Bisley onto the 1100 yard mark. Weather was to start near flat calm, 10 degrees celsius with a little mist still to burn off. The SSG08 and the Stiller SPECTRE both turned out with two of us shooting the Scenar

With minimal wind to start and an easy 5-8mph breeze from 9 o'clock later hits on the standard fig 11 came quickly in succession,..

For reference, the orange marker is 3 inches square. We shot on several target frames to speed things up.

All agreed we would under same conditions be happy to engage targets at 1200+ with confidence. If we can get range space we will try same again but on fig 12 ( half size) and also fig 11 at 1200 yards,

The Scenar L are a very reliable and easy to load for bullet.

 

[AZ2000]

Emouse, would you be willing to trade a little of your weather for a bit of ours. We get a bit of that in the winter but not as much as we would like.

Excellent shooting, not sure how the 24" will do past 1,000 yds but if I can do a 5" group at 1,000 I'll be more than satisfied. I did run into a problem when I reshot the AA2495 and Varget, they didn't want to group as tight as before. So I did a super clean on the barrel and will take it out and try it again and hope that is what happened, either that or it is the shooter, that could be the problem? I don't keep a round count but seems like somewhere between 175 and 225 rounds accuracy starts to go away. The gun has a total of less than a 1,000 rounds through it, so will have to start that log for when I get close to 5,000 it may be new barrel time.
Hopefully if the wind stays down and it doesn't rain, I am looking at this coming Thursday to take it out and retry all three at 500 again, after I burn some fouling rounds through the barrel.

I did have a pleasant surprise the other morning, was looking at the scope getting ready to shoot and caught a rabbit burning through the bushes off to my left, and right behind him was a baby deer chasing the rabbit. First time I have seen anything other than coyotes and road runners out in that area. Went for my camera but before I could get to it they were both gone, might of been late for breakfast? Or the deer was a carnivore and was chasing it's breakfast. (just kidding)
Have a good week and I will be praying it was only a dirty rifle and look forward to your results.

AZ

 

[Emouse]

AZ,..I think your assumption is correct: strings of 200 rounds plus will leave any barrel pretty fouled? Typically we shoot around 150+ on each outing and clean carefully straight after. The weather here is unusually good and the long range forecast ( pun intended) predicts another 3 weeks of warm settled weather. Even when the first frosts hit we get our best shooting days of the year between Sept and mid November.

 

[sharac]

I'm also planning to test them with RS60 next week together with 220grL to see what can i achieve from my factory Tikka barrel (24" 11.25" twist). If i'm hoping for ~2850 (i get 2780 with 170 lockbase with N540 - i shoot hbn coated bullets) for 175 and 2460 for 220grL but perhaps that will be a bit too much ... Will report also here for reference.

 

[AZ2000]

AZ,..I think your assumption is correct: strings of 200 rounds plus will leave any barrel pretty fouled? Typically we shoot around 150+ on each outing and clean carefully straight after. The weather here is unusually good and the long range forecast ( pun intended) predicts another 3 weeks of warm settled weather. Even when the first frosts hit we get our best shooting days of the year between Sept and mid November.

Emouse, I know your right, my problem is I shoot my Tavor a lot and sadly I am on a poor cleaning cycle because of it. The Tavor is more like an AK, run a show string through the barrel with knot in it soaked in WD40 and it will just keep on shooting. My bad.

Luckily our season runs pretty much from about now until late June, wind and rain allowing. I still wish we had a little of your balmy, cool weather.

 

[AZ2000]

I'm also planning to test them with RS60 next week together with 220grL to see what can i achieve from my factory Tikka barrel (24" 11.25" twist). If i'm hoping for ~2850 (i get 2780 with 170 lockbase with N540 - i shoot hbn coated bullets) for 175 and 2460 for 220grL but perhaps that will be a bit too much ... Will report also here for reference.

Sharac, that will be great. Haven't tried the heavier bullets yet and would be interesting to see your results, I learn something new every day and am happy to be able to do so. Thanks for jumping in.

AZ

 

[SatCong]

Hope you have a good shoot in the morning. Let us know how it went.

 

[AZ2000]

Hope you have a good shoot in the morning. Let us know how it went.

Thanks SatCong, we will see, hopefully the wind holds.


AZ

 

[AZ2000]

As planned was up @ 4:30am truck was loaded and ready to go, so I went. (A little American humor)

Was able to get the target set up, have a little coffee and watch the sun come up, one thing about our sunrise and sunsets in Arizona, absolutely beautiful especially with the giant cactus and mountains as a canvas.

I did start with 10 fowling rounds to re-soil the barrel and was ready to begin.
Just to recap, if you look at the last set of pictures you will see the N540 cartridge that was set @ 2.160 OG, really didn't do as well as expected.
I didn't bother to bring my remote camera system so I wasn't able to get any real time feed back when I was shooting and had to wait until I drove out to the 500yd mark to see what happened. I did retest the one load, 2.160 used the last time after cleaning the barrel, to see if it would change the poi on the target, which has lead to more testing.

When I got up to the target and looked at the results of the 4 tests, it was pretty clear that the 2.160 OG load was better than any of the others tested and I went into my happy dance, (more American humor) the pictures pretty much tell the story. The problem is now, I will have to rework the loads for the AA2495 and Varget to see if I can get them to tighten up to the 1 3/4" group shot with the powder I was having problems dialing in since we started, the VV N540, which seems to have turned out to be the best load of all.

I am going to sit down crunch some numbers and see where it goes from there.




AZ

 

[BravoXray]

Gentlemen I've been following this thread for a while and was wondering if you all could shed some light on something. I know you guys are loading the 175 scenars and I see your getting velocities ranging from 2650 +. I recently purchased loaded Lapua's loaded 175's to test in my rifle. Im without a chrono right now so I cant actually check the true velocity of this round. But I'm noticing that their posted velocity ( from their site) from a 26 in barrel is averaging 2602fps. Am I reading this correct? I always thought the 2650 range was common for 175's or at least with SMK and Bergers vlds. is there any reason why Lapua would load these with such a slower velocity?

 

[SatCong]

As planned was up @ 4:30am truck was loaded and ready to go, so I went. (A little American humor)

Was able to get the target set up, have a little coffee and watch the sun come up, one thing about our sunrise and sunsets in Arizona, absolutely beautiful especially with the giant cactus and mountains as a canvas.

I did start with 10 fowling rounds to re-soil the barrel and was ready to begin.
Just to recap, if you look at the last set of pictures you will see the N540 cartridge that was set @ 2.160 OG, really didn't do as well as expected.
I didn't bother to bring my remote camera system so I wasn't able to get any real time feed back when I was shooting and had to wait until I drove out to the 500yd mark to see what happened. I did retest the one load, 2.160 used the last time after cleaning the barrel, to see if it would change the poi on the target, which has lead to more testing.

When I got up to the target and looked at the results of the 4 tests, it was pretty clear that the 2.160 OG load was better than any of the others tested and I went into my happy dance, (more American humor) the pictures pretty much tell the story. The problem is now, I will have to rework the loads for the AA2495 and Varget to see if I can get them to tighten up to the 1 3/4" group shot with the powder I was having problems dialing in since we started, the VV N540, which seems to have turned out to be the best load of all.

I am going to sit down crunch some numbers and see where it goes from there.




AZ

Don't know if I want to go shooting with you anymore? You make me look bad. Congratulations. Nice shooting.

 

[AZ2000]

Gentlemen I've been following this thread for a while and was wondering if you all could shed some light on something. I know you guys are loading the 175 scenars and I see your getting velocities ranging from 2650 +. I recently purchased loaded Lapua's loaded 175's to test in my rifle. Im without a chrono right now so I cant actually check the true velocity of this round. But I'm noticing that their posted velocity ( from their site) from a 26 in barrel is averaging 2602fps. Am I reading this correct? I always thought the 2650 range was common for 175's or at least with SMK and Bergers vlds. is there any reason why Lapua would load these with such a slower velocity?

Bryant below is a data loading chart link from Lapua's web site for the 175 Scenars, only showing what their recommended loads are for the different VV powders with the minimum and maximums from a 24" barrel. These are guide lines using specific brass or cases with their bullets and powders. One of the big factors is case size or volume, this one item can have a huge effect on speed and primarily pressure. It seems one of the biggest motivators for some manufacturers is rumored to be litigation, should a cartridge explode causing injury or damage, along with a cartridge that is comfortable to shoot with a lower recoil impact. As you can see from Lapua's chart, the speed can be much higher if loaded to the maximum grains, not recommended when beginning to load your own bullets with any powder that I have found. I hope this helps answer your question and more input from others can only help. IMO

AZ

Products - Lapua

 

[AZ2000]

Don't know if I want to go shooting with you anymore? You make me look bad. Congratulations. Nice shooting.

Sat Cong, you know it's the other way around.

AZ

 

[BravoXray]

Thanks for the reply AZ but I was actually asking about Lapuas loaded ammo not just the projectiles. I was able to get out today and go through a few rounds to zero them in for a match tommorow. Even though they spin slower than the SMKs. They seem damn accurate. I can only imagine if I started hand loading them. Pictures shows two groups as I zeroed them. After the second group in the center with one on top of the other I was more than satisfied. I'll get to better test the rest of the lot tomorrow.

 

[AZ2000]

Thanks for the reply AZ but I was actually asking about Lapuas loaded ammo not just the projectiles. I was able to get out today and go through a few rounds to zero them in for a match tommorow. Even though they spin slower than the SMKs. They seem damn accurate. I can only imagine if I started hand loading them. Pictures shows two groups as I zeroed them. After the second group in the center with one on top of the other I was more than satisfied. I'll get to better test the rest of the lot tomorrow.

Excellent, looking forward to your results with the 175 L's.

AZ

 

[AZ2000]

Continuing on, sat down and crunched the numbers and this is what I came up with. Going to go back out and retry the same loads that shot the two inch groups at 500yds using the Varget and AA2495 and see what happens. Reason for this is, there was roughly 20 rounds fired between the last group fired, N540 that did the tight group with the clean bore and the results fired using the Varget and AA2495 with the fowled barrel. Conclusion, it looks like the barrel was fowled and may have affected the accuracy of the previous groups using the Varget and AA2495, so basically, I am going to shoot the two with a clean barrel before trying to re-adjust any of the powder loads or lengths.

We will see? Comments, feel free to jump in, always willing to learn.

Quote," Enough said" "Run mine through a TRG-22 at 2,580 with Vv N540. I load them .013 off the lands.
They shoot where I aim them and are very consistent. I regularly get groups below .5 moa. Don't recall ever getting a .6 group."

Look's like you were spot on, mine are now running .050 of the lans with the N540 and it's a box stock Savage, just taken a little time to get there. May be awhile longer, it is supposed to rain again? Go figure, damn.

AZ

 

[Emouse]

Continuing on, sat down and crunched the numbers and this is what I came up with. Going to go back out and retry the same loads that shot the two inch groups at 500yds using the Varget and AA2495 and see what happens. Reason for this is, there was roughly 20 rounds fired between the last group fired, N540 that did the tight group with the clean bore and the results fired using the Varget and AA2495 with the fowled barrel. Conclusion, it looks like the barrel was fowled and may have affected the accuracy of the previous groups using the Varget and AA2495, so basically, I am going to shoot the two with a clean barrel before trying to re-adjust any of the powder loads or lengths.

We will see? Comments, feel free to jump in, always willing to learn.

Quote," Enough said" "Run mine through a TRG-22 at 2,580 with Vv N540. I load them .013 off the lands.
They shoot where I aim them and are very consistent. I regularly get groups below .5 moa. Don't recall ever getting a .6 group."

Look's like you were spot on, mine are now running .050 of the lans with the N540 and it's a box stock Savage, just taken a little time to get there. May be awhile longer, it is supposed to rain again? Go figure, damn.

AZ

AZ/Bryant,...glad to see all is going well. As you know we have shot the 175L all the way out to 1100 yards recently and they easily hold sub 1/2 MOA with 1/4 MOA the norm in good conditions, with good handloads. What has impressed me the most is the ease with which getting loads sorted has been. Jump or jamed they work. Different primers have needed slightly diffrent load capacities and powder can also be a critical selection ( as with any load workup).

AZ,...I still think running long to the lands ( or just off) and slightly faster with maybe a different powder selection is your way forward? Not that the results are bad so far in any way!

For consistant and accurate results I don't think the 175L can be beat? And that folks is what wins matches and real world encounters.

Go forth and test,..you will enjoy it.

For me 1200yrds is the next goal,..maybe range space will be available still this year at Bisley. I will ask.

 

[AZ2000]

AZ/Bryant,...glad to see all is going well. As you know we have shot the 175L all the way out to 1100 yards recently and they easily hold sub 1/2 MOA with 1/4 MOA the norm in good conditions, with good handloads. What has impressed me the most is the ease with which getting loads sorted has been. Jump or jamed they work. Different primers have needed slightly diffrent load capacities and powder can also be a critical selection ( as with any load workup).

AZ,...I still think running long to the lands ( or just off) and slightly faster with maybe a different powder selection is your way forward? Not that the results are bad so far in any way!

For consistant and accurate results I don't think the 175L can be beat? And that folks is what wins matches and real world encounters.

Go forth and test,..you will enjoy it.

For me 1200yrds is the next goal,..maybe range space will be available still this year at Bisley. I will ask.

E, I tried the in the lans at higher charges of powder when I first started developing the loads and to be quite honest had nothing that even looked like it wanted to work. That is one reason why I decided to try going back the other way and shorten them up. If you remember the whole point was to see if I could get all three powders to work with this gun and the Lapua Scenar L's with reasonable accuracy and of course for a fun challenge.

When I was developing loads for my .243 I stretched those out and they worked quite well in my opinion, but as I said with the .308 short throat, just couldn't get the results I did with the others.
Here is a short work up on the 6mm .243 Winchester I put together from another box stock Savage.

1 mile shoot 12-13

1st shot top left, 2nd shot bottom left, 3&4 are the two in the right hand lower corner, number 5 is the one closest to center and number 6 is the one at bottom center.

Savage .243 Winchester
Factory Savage action, with accutrigger.
Choate stock.
26" Shilen Barrel, stainless match grade, 1:8 twist, 11 degree crown.
Harris bipod, bottom swivel type.

NF 5x25-56 ATACR MOA reticle, 1/4" adjustments, 120 moa vertical scope adjustment.
Murphy Precision 40 moa rail, stainless steel, black coated.
Barrett EX-rings, adjustable to 20 or 30 moa, set at 20moa.
Vortex bubble level, scope side mount.
107 SMK Match King 6 mm, my loads.
Nosler .243 Winchester brass, trimmed and re-sized prior to loading.
H4831sc powder.
Wolf large rifle primers.

Strelok + used for dope, within 1 moa first time out, used same dope this time out which was from last hit from last shot from previous outing, 89.1 moa vertical, 5 moa left to compensate for SD and coriolis effect with lite wind 1-2mph, ended up with wind 3-6mph from L to R with frontal gusts. Last two shot's 5&6 with vertical of 91.2 moa and horizontal of 10 moa left.
Roughly 135 ft vertical arc and 14 ft horizontal from center of target. Total rounds fired 16 for 6 hits on 40"X37" target. That wind does play hell with my little bitty bullets. On the good side, you could see where they were coming in at an approximate 30-35 degree angle by the top part of the bullet hole showing more black on paper from coming down and moving forward at the same time, with no key holes. Bullet is going subsonic at a little over 1300 yards. Some one said you can't shoot a 6mm, .243 Win. one mile and hit anything, guess he was wrong. Target is 40" X 37". 1 moa would be 35.2 ", big circle is 30", not a sub moa but pretty close.

AZ

 

[AZ2000]

Latest update on the .308 Lapua Scenar L.

The rain finally stopped and was able to get back out again.

The first item was to take out the three loads I have been testing with the three powders and re-run speeds and double check scope zero, found some interesting results.
Let's start with speed, first of all I moved the chrony to within 10 feet, instead of the recommended 15 for large caliber rifles. I was able to do this because I run a brake and it is reducing the muzzle blast considerably, making it possible to get closer without blowing over the chrony. This is what I found.

AA2495 @ 2716 av
Varget @ 2740 av
VV N540 @ 2670 av

These speeds are based on the previous 500 yd loads tested earlier and came up a bit faster with the chrony closer.

Here are the pictures of the current 100yd results.







They all look like they should do fairly well @ 500yds and here are the results.







The N540 actually measured 1 3/4" X 3/4"

The vertical dispersion was actually much better with the N540 than the AA2495 and Varget.

What I am seeing is the AA2495 and Varget are very good at 100 yds, but for some reason are spreading vertically and horizontally out to 500 yds. It appears with this rifle, happy speed is between 2650 and 2680, for this short length barrel and short chamber. Jump is now at .050", which for the most part is huge. ( It also is the thickness of the thrust bushing for the main shaft of an older model Harley Davidson 4 speed transmission.)

The 500 yd target showing the N540 hitting high, was a scope adjustment to compensate for the low poi when the 100yd testing was done, as you can see all three would have came in at close to the same elevation @ 500 yds, without having adjusted the scope.

One other factor, the temperature was 20 degrees lower and the pressure a bit higher when these test were done compared to the previous ones, which was 100 degrees and lower pressure. Bullets were kept in a covered case and shielded from direct sunlight prior to shooting.

Plan B, I am going to reduce the powder load and reduce the length and try to tune the AA2495 and Varget to the happy speed and see what happens then retry the 500yd tests.

AZ

 

[SatCong]

Very nice shooting. Your groups looking very good. Keep us posted.

 

[SatCong]

E, I tried the in the lans at higher charges of powder when I first started developing the loads and to be quite honest had nothing that even looked like it wanted to work. That is one reason why I decided to try going back the other way and shorten them up. If you remember the whole point was to see if I could get all three powders to work with this gun and the Lapua Scenar L's with reasonable accuracy and of course for a fun challenge.

When I was developing loads for my .243 I stretched those out and they worked quite well in my opinion, but as I said with the .308 short throat, just couldn't get the results I did with the others.
Here is a short work up on the 6mm .243 Winchester I put together from another box stock Savage.

1 mile shoot 12-13

1st shot top left, 2nd shot bottom left, 3&4 are the two in the right hand lower corner, number 5 is the one closest to center and number 6 is the one at bottom center.

Savage .243 Winchester
Factory Savage action, with accutrigger.
Choate stock.
26" Shilen Barrel, stainless match grade, 1:8 twist, 11 degree crown.
Harris bipod, bottom swivel type.

NF 5x25-56 ATACR MOA reticle, 1/4" adjustments, 120 moa vertical scope adjustment.
Murphy Precision 40 moa rail, stainless steel, black coated.
Barrett EX-rings, adjustable to 20 or 30 moa, set at 20moa.
Vortex bubble level, scope side mount.
107 SMK Match King 6 mm, my loads.
Nosler .243 Winchester brass, trimmed and re-sized prior to loading.
H4831sc powder.
Wolf large rifle primers.

Strelok + used for dope, within 1 moa first time out, used same dope this time out which was from last hit from last shot from previous outing, 89.1 moa vertical, 5 moa left to compensate for SD and coriolis effect with lite wind 1-2mph, ended up with wind 3-6mph from L to R with frontal gusts. Last two shot's 5&6 with vertical of 91.2 moa and horizontal of 10 moa left.
Roughly 135 ft vertical arc and 14 ft horizontal from center of target. Total rounds fired 16 for 6 hits on 40"X37" target. That wind does play hell with my little bitty bullets. On the good side, you could see where they were coming in at an approximate 30-35 degree angle by the top part of the bullet hole showing more black on paper from coming down and moving forward at the same time, with no key holes. Bullet is going subsonic at a little over 1300 yards. Some one said you can't shoot a 6mm, .243 Win. one mile and hit anything, guess he was wrong. Target is 40" X 37". 1 moa would be 35.2 ", big circle is 30", not a sub moa but pretty close.

AZ

But have to you did some nice shooting with that .243. Damm one mile with a 243!

 

[AZ2000]

Thanks Sat Cong, it was fun.

Almost ready with all three powder loads to go to 1,000. Here is hopefully the last update on the 500 yd distance.

The weather was a balmy 60 degrees with a nice little gusting breeze from l to r, 7 to 12 mph coming in at about -40 degrees out of the NE, not a perfect day but not raining.

Set up the target and the chrony and was ready to go. So I just left! (more American humor)

I shot one 4 shot group with the modified Varget using the previous scope dope and checking the speed. Speed was down considerably because of dropping the charges down to reduce the speed. It was still close to the target so went ahead and shot the groups making one scope adjustment of 1 moa left, letting them hit low. The reason for this was because of the wind I didn't feel the conditions were going to give true feed back because of the wind gust's so I let them ride. This first picture is of the Varget and was more than happy with the vertical pattern, even with the wind. Speed was down to 2635 fps so will add .2 grains to bring it up to around 2650-80.



Next is the AA2495 which seems to have done well also. The biggest change for both loads was making both of them shorter bringing the OG down to 2.160 for the Savage throat.



If the next tests turn out well, instead of doing a follow up will just wait until we hit the 1,000 yd testing, who knows after that we can go for the mile? That's when it really gets interesting.

Right Sat Cong?

AZ

 

[SatCong]

Thanks Sat Cong, it was fun.

Almost ready with all three powder loads to go to 1,000. Here is hopefully the last update on the 500 yd distance.

The weather was a balmy 60 degrees with a nice little gusting breeze from l to r, 7 to 12 mph coming in at about -40 degrees out of the NE, not a perfect day but not raining.

Set up the target and the chrony and was ready to go. So I just left! (more American humor)

I shot one 4 shot group with the modified Varget using the previous scope dope and checking the speed. Speed was down considerably because of dropping the charges down to reduce the speed. It was still close to the target so went ahead and shot the groups making one scope adjustment of 1 moa left, letting them hit low. The reason for this was because of the wind I didn't feel the conditions were going to give true feed back because of the wind gust's so I let them ride. This first picture is of the Varget and was more than happy with the vertical pattern, even with the wind. Speed was down to 2635 fps so will add .2 grains to bring it up to around 2650-80.



Next is the AA2495 which seems to have done well also. The biggest change for both loads was making both of them shorter bringing the OG down to 2.160 for the Savage throat.



If the next tests turn out well, instead of doing a follow up will just wait until we hit the 1,000 yd testing, who knows after that we can go for the mile? That's when it really gets interesting.

Right Sat Cong?

AZ

You have that right. Also looks like your working the loads is paying off. Nice shooting.

 

[AZ2000]

Follow up.

Some will say make the loads faster and I thought about this and tried it, but for my rifle it just didn't seem to work. So I did some research about world class shooters and found this article. There may be some articles by Bryan Litz but wasn't able to find them, guess I should buy his book but am not really a reader.
I did find this article from Brad Sauve specifically about 175 grain .308's which seems to point to faster is not always better, depending on your gun, just an fyi if your following this thread.
I did crunch some numbers and @ 2,600 fps for the 175 out of my barrel, the bullet is still hitting the target at 1,000 yds at roughly 700 ft lbs of energy, should be more than enough to rattle your teeth?

Remember, I am not an expert or a competitor, just a guy like you, that likes to shoot and try to share what I find.




"Tips from Brad Sauve, 2004 F-TR Nat’l Champion

With my .308, I tried A LOT of different loads in the first 600 rounds, starting with 42.0-44.5 N150 for the first 200 rounds, then moving to 44.0-45.0 Varget for the next 300 rounds. I tried different bullets (Sierra 175 MKs both moly and naked, Nosler 180gr Ballistic Tips, 175gr Bergers), different cases (Lapua, Federal), primers (Rem, CCI BR, Fed Match), and, oh yes, seating depths (on the lands to 0.10″ off, and several distances in between). Even after 500 rounds of testing, I still wasn’t satisfied, and frankly, I was growing weary.

I finally found my “sweetheart” load on February 14, 2000 (Valentines Day), almost seven months after getting the rifle. This is the load I still shoot today and I shot all weekend at the F-Class Nationals. The break-through came when I discovered that slower velocities produced outstanding accuracy. I found that Varget pushing a 175 SMK at about 2610 fps delivered quarter-MOA groups out to 300 yards and half-minute or better groups beyond that distance. Since developing that load, I’ve used Lapua cases and Russian primers, but the core elements, 43.0 grains Varget with 175 MKs seated 0.018″ off the lands, has not changed.

During the first few years I owned the rifle, I was crazy about cleaning. My log shows that I cleaned the barrel 80 times in the first 998 rounds. That works out to cleaning every dozen rounds! No wonder it took me so long to find the right load! Boy, have I changed my habits. I still clean the barrel, but I run a much higher round count between cleanings than before. Now, I shoot 100-200 rounds before I give the barrel a thorough cleaning. This goes with my general thinking–that some folks will benefit from added trigger time more than anything else. Spend more time shooting than loading ‘perfect’ ammunition or cleaning. Squeezing that last quarter-minute out of your groups won’t do you any good if you can’t hold one MOA or you can’t read wind conditions."

AZ

 

[SatCong]

That I like. Sounds like common sense in the search for accuracy.

 

[AZ2000]

I was going to finish the 500 yd testing and go forward with the 1,000 yd without adding anymore updates. After I finished this morning and what I saw, thought I would go ahead and put it in the update, I learned something new about this rifle and wanted to share.

Was out at the spot about 6 am, no wind a little cloud cover and a beautiful day.
Set up the target, no wind so didn't bother to bring a wind flag to put on the target, because I forgot it.

Testing was to be with the AA2495 and Varget to try and tighten up the groups. When I started round count was at 94 rounds since the barrel was last cleaned. My other rifle has a Shilen stainless barrel and is usually cleaned in the 200 round range, so figured this Savage would be ok to about 150. The results said different?

Earlier I said no wind and no flag on the target, well got down to the line set up the chrony, table and got ready to go. One thing about where I shoot, it's called greasewood and unless the wind blows hard, it doesn't move along with the rock's, no grass on the ground and the 20' high cactus won't move in the wind either.

So ready to go at the target, set the vertical and good to go, still no wind at the line. Finished doing 4 loads, go back up to the target and It's a miracle, the wind is gusting across the base of the mountain at a measured 6 to 12 mph, from left to right and the targets reflected that.

Went back down to the line, set the scope for the left to right wind and finished the 2nd set on 5 and 6. Went back up to the line and another miracle, still no wind at the line, but now it's blowing lightly right to left at the target and the scope was set for a left to right wind making the hit's go left of the poa.

The one thing I found interesting is right around a 125 Rounds, the last group #6 started spreading out, when before the same load group #6 using the N540 was working excellent. Moral to the story for this rifle, clean after 95 to 100 rounds to be sure. Thanks to emouse bringing it to my attention, I did start a log and will continue to use it with this rifle.

Hopefully this will be the last update and the next one will be for the 1,000yd shooting. One other item as I have said, not an expert or competition shooter, so the one #5 shot off to the left is my Mulligan.

AZ

 

[BravoXray]

Follow up.

Some will say make the loads faster and I thought about this and tried it, but for my rifle it just didn't seem to work. So I did some research about world class shooters and found this article. There may be some articles by Bryan Litz but wasn't able to find them, guess I should buy his book but am not really a reader.
I did find this article from Brad Sauve specifically about 175 grain .308's which seems to point to faster is not always better, depending on your gun, just an fyi if your following this thread.
I did crunch some numbers and @ 2,600 fps for the 175 out of my barrel, the bullet is still hitting the target at 1,000 yds at roughly 700 ft lbs of energy, should be more than enough to rattle your teeth?

Remember, I am not an expert or a competitor, just a guy like you, that likes to shoot and try to share what I find.




"Tips from Brad Sauve, 2004 F-TR Nat’l Champion

With my .308, I tried A LOT of different loads in the first 600 rounds, starting with 42.0-44.5 N150 for the first 200 rounds, then moving to 44.0-45.0 Varget for the next 300 rounds. I tried different bullets (Sierra 175 MKs both moly and naked, Nosler 180gr Ballistic Tips, 175gr Bergers), different cases (Lapua, Federal), primers (Rem, CCI BR, Fed Match), and, oh yes, seating depths (on the lands to 0.10″ off, and several distances in between). Even after 500 rounds of testing, I still wasn’t satisfied, and frankly, I was growing weary.

I finally found my “sweetheart” load on February 14, 2000 (Valentines Day), almost seven months after getting the rifle. This is the load I still shoot today and I shot all weekend at the F-Class Nationals. The break-through came when I discovered that slower velocities produced outstanding accuracy. I found that Varget pushing a 175 SMK at about 2610 fps delivered quarter-MOA groups out to 300 yards and half-minute or better groups beyond that distance. Since developing that load, I’ve used Lapua cases and Russian primers, but the core elements, 43.0 grains Varget with 175 MKs seated 0.018″ off the lands, has not changed.

During the first few years I owned the rifle, I was crazy about cleaning. My log shows that I cleaned the barrel 80 times in the first 998 rounds. That works out to cleaning every dozen rounds! No wonder it took me so long to find the right load! Boy, have I changed my habits. I still clean the barrel, but I run a much higher round count between cleanings than before. Now, I shoot 100-200 rounds before I give the barrel a thorough cleaning. This goes with my general thinking–that some folks will benefit from added trigger time more than anything else. Spend more time shooting than loading ‘perfect’ ammunition or cleaning. Squeezing that last quarter-minute out of your groups won’t do you any good if you can’t hold one MOA or you can’t read wind conditions."

AZ

Thank you. Your statement actually supported something I had been pondering since I first started shooting the loaded 175 Lapuas and noticed thier posted MV seemed especially slow compared to what I had been used to shooting with FGMM (SMK). I was under the impression fast bullet = better, Now I am learning not always the case.

 

[AZ2000]

Thanks for the reply AZ but I was actually asking about Lapuas loaded ammo not just the projectiles. I was able to get out today and go through a few rounds to zero them in for a match tommorow. Even though they spin slower than the SMKs. They seem damn accurate. I can only imagine if I started hand loading them. Pictures shows two groups as I zeroed them. After the second group in the center with one on top of the other I was more than satisfied. I'll get to better test the rest of the lot tomorrow.

Your welcome Bryant, did you ever get a chance to finish this testing you were doing, just curious how it came out?

AZ

 

[SatCong]

AZ, best of luck to you at 1,000 yards. I looks like you have good loads work up.

 

[BravoXray]

Your welcome Bryant, did you ever get a chance to finish this testing you were doing, just curious how it came out?

AZ

AZ, unfortunately, no. I did use them in the match I was in about two weeks ago, but this match only required my shots to be as accurate as "minute of steel". I will say this I honestly wouldn't trust the posted MV that Lapua posted (at least in regards to it's loaded ammo). I used those numbers just to get balk park dope via JBM's and Lapuas own ballistic App. My first string of fire were five targets 900 to 1100 yards. All misses.
After trouble shooting in between stages I used a generic MV of 2650fps ( the same as 175 SMK's), and reworked my dope. I was able to hit steel out to 900 using that dope but I think the 2650 was a bit generous as my shots were still lower than center mass hits (6 inch steel targets). Windage was not a problem though.

My problem is until I am able to get a chrono I don't know the true velocity of the round which for now I can only determine is between 2602 and 2650fps. Maybe more in the 2625-2650 fps range. I want to also find out what powder Lapua is using in its loaded ammunition, from there Ill try to see what charge they are using and i'll also take other measurements such as the OAL, seating depth and so on.

Ill try to take care of that in the upcoming week, Ill also try to be as detailed as you guys are in my findings.