1903-A4 Build Questions

[D_TROS]

Hey,

I have been interested in getting an A4 for as long as I can remember. Its been hard finding a real one, and pricey as well. And I have always liked spacing expensive builds out over time to make them more "budget friendly." I dont want one of the repro ones (Rock Ridge, Gibbs, ets).

I have oppertunity to buy a stripped receiver, and thats where my questions begin. Also, have been searching for the "Z" prefix A4, as a limited number were made, and thats why I wanted to start at a receiver and build from there.

Is it relatively easy to finish a build or is it going to be too tough to find all the components?? (barrel and bolt got me worried).

Is there a source that would have the components to finish the build? that I can buy as I get the money?

Or is it not worth the headache and just save for a complete rifle??

Most of my research has shown repros, and I am fairly new to the A4 rifle, as in knowing the ins and outs. Any good reads/resources on the A4 would also be appreciated. Always looking for more literature on rifles.

Which book is a better book to buy?
"A Collector's Guide to the '03 Springfield " By Canfield
or
"The Model 1903 Springfield Rifle and its Variations." by Poyer


Also if anyone happens to have a lead on a complete/partial/project A4, I would entertain that as well. Just take it to PM's.

Or is a repro/conversion the way to go?
I really like the way the A3 is crossed out/stamped over on the A4's though.

There are fewer sharper looking rifles than the A4 and I am looking forward to owning one.

Regards,
DT


ETA Good Links on the A4

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...niper-rifles/186595-m1903a4-its-finished.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-vintage-sniper-rifles/94957-1903a3-advice.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...r-rifles/121715-m1903a4-remington-1943-a.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../149541-realistic-max-range-2-5x-1903-a4.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...iper-rifles/112014-my-1903a4-clone-story.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/83045-springfield-o3a4-gunsmiths.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...les/40622-1903a4-ww2-sniper-range-report.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...y-1903a4-vintage-sniper-project-finished.html

added this one due to the amazing picture of the sniper rifle collection
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...sniper-rifles/166947-viet-nam-era-scopes.html

 

[D_TROS]

OK.

I dont see a 1903-A4 build thread, but there is a 1903 pic thread.

Regardless, after more research, some facts on the A4:

"Like its service rifle counterpart, the M1903A4 sniper rifle is easy to identify. All examples were made by Remington and are generally identical to the Remington M1903A3 (1) The '03-A3' marking was retained but was moved to the extreme left side of the receiver so it could be read with the scope mount in place.
(2) The rear sight was removed and a Redfield 'Junior' scope mount was installed. The Weaver 330C, M73B1 or M8 telescopes were issued with the M1903A4 rifle during World War Two.
(3) The front sight was not mounted although the milling cuts for it were present.
(4) The full pistol grip Type C stock or the semi-pistol grip stocks were used. These had the same markings as found on the M1903A3 stocks.
(5) The bolt handle was concavely forged to clear the body of the telescope.
Some of the early M1903A4 rifles were issued with commercial production Weaver 330C telescopes with cross hair reticles. As the available supply ran out, additional scopes were manufactured and procured under government contract. These were essentially identical to the 330C but were marked with the military designation 'M73B1'. A very scare later variant of this scope was adopted as the M8, which differed mainly in having a tapered post reticle rather than the cross hairs of the 330C and M73B1 scopes. Leather lens covers were issued with the Weaver scopes during World War Two. A plastic version was introduced after the war but these would not properly be found on an 'as issued' WWII scope.
The M1903A4 serial numbers were in the following blocks of numbers:
3,407,088-3,427,087
Z4,000,000-Z4,002,920
4,992,001-4,999,045
The Z-prefix 'A4 rifles are a scarce and desirable variant with total production of fewer than 3,000.
The M1903A4 was the only '03 sniper rifle that was originally manufactured as a sniping weapon. Unlike the other '03 sniper rifles, it is virtually impossible to fake an M1903A4 sniper's rifle due to the peculiar placement of the receiver ring markings. 'A4s have become very popular with collectors today and prices have risen dramatically within the past few years. After World War Two, the Weaver telescope was replaced by the post-war M84, but most collectors prefer to have their rifles with the correct scope. Good condition military issue M73B1 scopes have gotten to be rather tough to find given the increased demand for restoration purposes." - Canfield


And if you click on the Armours notes #3 Building 1903A4 Sniper Rifle, some more good reading on a repro A4.

www.thamesvalleyguns.co.uk


Guess my question of bulding off a stripped receiver is still up, or comments from those that have built from ground up.

Regards,
DT

 

[kraigWY]

There is nothing to it really. Find a 1903a3 action, either Remington or Smith Corona. Then order a parts kit from J&G Sales or Sarco. And start putting it together. Gunparts Corp also has parts.

You can get a barrel from the CMP or Sarco. New barrels or USGI un-issued. You can get the stock from CMP, go with the C Stock.

Start searching e-bay and other places for a scope. For a CMP GSM Legal Scope you need a M73B1 (Weaver 330c 2.5X, M73B2, M81, M84, Lyman Alaskan or the Weaver K2.5, all of which were used on the M1903a4's.

You need to find some vertical spit scope rings and the Redfield Jr Base. Search e-bay for these or gun shows, gun shops or antique stores (which is where I got my Weaver 2.5)

Sounds like a lot, but it just takes time searching for the parts. Some of the parts in the parts kit wont work, for example I had to make a sear spring because the one I had was too light (trigger has to be 2.5 lbs or heavier).

Sounds like a lot of work, it isn't. Parts take time, so you don't have to invest your money all at once. You'll end up nickel and dime'ing not noticing the outlay until you have it all together.

All you have to do is put the parts together. The only critical part (as far as accuracy goes) is fitting the barrel to the action. I trued up the action with the threads. Brownell's makes a mandrel for this that works easy. The barrel will need finished reamed. Do this by hand, a turn at a time until the rifle barely closes on the go-gage.

Don't let this scare you, its a lot easier then it looks like from my remarks.

As you start building keep me in mind and PM me with any questions.

I'm going to assume you want this rifle to be legal per CMP GSM Vintage Sniper Rules, which you should. Don't glass bed the stock. Some with tell you Unertl 8X is better, it is, or at least its better glass but it has to be a M1941 Sniper version, you'll have to start with the M1903a1 action which is going to be harder to find.

The vintage sniper matches are fired at 300 and 600 yards, I don't have any problems using the post radical on my K2.5 at those distances.

Anyway here is a picture of mine, and it shoots pretty dern good.

 

[D_TROS]

Kraig,

I was hoping you would respond.
Much appreciated. I will def keep you in mind for questions. Everything you posted was exactly what I wanted to hear. I have spent some time researching exactly what's what, but couldn't find anything for getting parts.
good advice on the points to keep it CMP GSM Vintage compliant. will definitely do.

Regards sir,
Dorgan

ETA: Very nice rifle by the way. very clean lines. I like.

 

[jet_lagged]

Poyer book is better than Canfield. Only part that will take any effort to find (outside of original scope or rings) will be the bent/sniper bolt, and you still see them fairly frequently on Gunbroker.

 

[D_TROS]

Thanks Jet for info on book. Its ordered.

QUESTION

Sales - Stock Sets

On the CMP Black Walnut Stock Item #086, it says it is for 1903 and is C style. BUT the one below it says its for the 1903A3 (#087). Both are C style.

Does it matter which one I choose? I like the black walnut better, but if it wont work/wrong stlye/etc etc, I have no prob getting the reg American Walnut one that says its for the A3.

Oh dang. There is no #087 in stock. CPM only has the #086 in stock. Should I just get that one?


Regards,
DT

 

[AK Sgt Maj]

Numrich Gun Parts has surplus new surplus bent bolts, both stripped or complete. There is a difference in the 03 and 03A3 C stocks. The 03A3 is what you want. It has the cuts for the A3 hand guard where the 03 has the cuts for the 03 rear sight. They are more expensive, but you can get new surplus C or Scant A3 stocks and hand guards. I got the scant because they are cheaper and more A4's wound up with them than the original C stock. The new surplus C stock will run about $100 more than the scant stocks. The new surplus barrels can be gotten in 2 groove or 4 groove, but the 2 grooves are cut rifling and the 4 are button. The 2 groove have always been considered more accurate. There is a A4 barreled action on the CMP auction site right now, but they usually go for a lot. Sarco and E-Bay are also good sources for parts.
I got a pull threw finish match ream to chamber mine. You use the bolt, with the extractor removed against the reamer, as you turn it and when the bolt closes the chamber is done. You want to do it a little at a time and take the bolt and reamer out and clean the chips, and after a few times when it closes then clean it good and check with your gauges and the go gauge will let the bolt close, but the no-go will not close and it's done. When you fit the barrel and action, make sure the match marks line up and check by putting the complete bolt assembly in and make sure that it closes. If the match marks don't line up, the extractor will not go in the cut for it in the chamber area.

 

[kraigWY]

As too books, I have several good ones.

The absolute best, bar none is TM 9-1270 U.S. Rifles, Cal. .30, M1903, M1903A1, M1903A3, and M1903A4. It's the Army's Ordnance Maintenance Manuel for the rifle which came out in 20, January 1944.

I have an original in excellent shape but if you are just building a rifle or maintaining one Amazon.com has repos for a hair over ten bucks.

Amazon.com: tm 9-1270 U.S. Rifles, Cal. 30, M1903,

This book will show you how to put them together and trouble shoot any problems. Best parts list you'll find.

 

[D_TROS]

Good Links on the A4

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...niper-rifles/186595-m1903a4-its-finished.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-vintage-sniper-rifles/94957-1903a3-advice.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...r-rifles/121715-m1903a4-remington-1943-a.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../149541-realistic-max-range-2-5x-1903-a4.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...iper-rifles/112014-my-1903a4-clone-story.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/sniper-hide-gunsmithing/83045-springfield-o3a4-gunsmiths.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...les/40622-1903a4-ww2-sniper-range-report.html

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...y-1903a4-vintage-sniper-project-finished.html

added this one due to the amazing picture of the sniper rifle collection
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...sniper-rifles/166947-viet-nam-era-scopes.html


Some good links on here alone on the A4

DT

 

[wksinatl]

Seeing nice a4's like KraigWY's just gets me all giddy......

Keith

 

[218bee]

Thanks for the links...very cool...I have two real A4's , a 342xxxx and a 499xxxx and shoot them whenever I can....

 

[D_TROS]

218Bee - Good looking rifle. Is that an original A4 stock?

Kraig - Thanks for the reference to the TM 9-1270. I have one ordered up.


UPDATE: I have my stripped action being shipped to me now. I won it off the CMP auctions. Quite excited to get this going.

I also have a friend that has a real A4 bolt I will prob jump on (Wants $400). Will post some pics first to ensure its real. If its not, then I will talk the price down. Anything in particular to take pic of? I will post a pic of top view, under the bolt, and of the safety.
As I understand it the bolt needs to be R marked under the bolt with a proof punch, the handle not look like a kid with a dremel took after it, and the safety is rounded. Will update pics when I meet this weekend to check it out.

I also picked up a C stock. It is clean stock and has a notch cut out for the bolt. I dont think its a real A4 stock as there are no cartouches (punchmarks). Does there have to be any marks for the stock to be real? Might have got taken on the stock, but live and learn (paid $250). The CMP ran out of C stocks for the 03A3 so I went looking and kinda jumped on the first thing I saw. Shoulda waited I spose.

Will post pics of everything as I get it in the mail.

This was supposed to be a long project, but I got so excited researching it and looking up parts, it has quickly consumed me.

regards,
DT

PS - NEED A 9-43 Dated 2-groove to match my action. If anyone has one they willing to get rid of, let me know.

 

[majvret]

Question for Kraig and your pictured rifle. On your A4 with the Lyman Alaskan, does your safety clear the scope? I have two original A4s. I have two Alaskan scopes. One is a mil issue "B" prefix, and the other is an A prefix. One of them has a longer rear eye piece like yours looks like and the safety does not go all the way over. The other works fine. I am just curious if yours engages all the way properly. Thanks, Dave

 

[D_TROS]

M73B1 Scope Designations
(Taken off of
M73B1 Type I, II, III?
)


the designations Type 1, 2 & 3 as relates to the M73B1 first all should be understood to be 'terms of art' used by collectors just to help us describe things. They have no official basis.

Basically it breaks down like this:

Type 1 - Commercial Weaver 330C with the words "Telescope, M73B1
Serial No. xxxx" electopenciled on the side of the tube.

Type 2a - "Telescope, M73B1"
"Pat'd=Pats Pending"
"W.R. Weaver & Co."
"El Paso, Tx"
(all of the above is roll stamped on the data plate)
The words "Serial No." are rolled stamped on the side of the tube.
The actual serial number is electropenciled on the tube.
The W&E knobs are flat-topped with out the tiny center zeroing screw.

Type 2b - Same as Type 2a except:
The W&E knobs have a tiny screw which allows the sniper to set the scope marks to "zero" once he has targeted his rifle.

Type 3 - The references to Weaver no longer appear. The Data plates are roll stamped:
"Telescope, M73B1"
"Stock No. 7579931"
"Serial No." (The actual s/n XXXXX is applied with an electropencil.)
"7635029" (GI stock number for the data plate.)

As far as the quantities and serial numbers go the "Type 2" model, a & b seem to predominate.
We know that Weaver produced something on the order of 36000 scopes during WW2.

According to Clark Campbell ("The '03 Springfield Era", 2003) the earliest A4's were equipped with commercial scopes either the "330C" with cross wire reticles or the "330 Scope - M.8" with tapered post. Throughout A4 production the delivery of telescopic sights was major problem. In order to allow Remington to get the first few thousand rifles out the door Weaver scrounged all their unsold inventory. Some of these scopes may have been returned to Weaver in El Paso where they were converted to the "Type 1" configuration.

I don't have very complete information on M73B1 Serial Numbers but I believe i have seen Type 1's in the 6XXX to 10XXX range; Type 2a's from around 11XXX to 21XXX and Type 2b's from 22XXX to 29XXX and Type 3's from 30XXX to 35XXX. These are approximations and a further complication comes about since scopes were occasionally rebuilt and the parts mixed by the military or civilians. It appears that Weaver included the quantities of the commercial scopes furnished in the overall serial number range even thought the scopes were not serial numbered.
(For example to the best of my knowledge serial numbers are never seen on examples of the '330 Scope - M.8)

To sum up The M73B1 was the primary scope used on the A4 both during and after WW2. The M84 was approved as an alternate in 1956 and authorization was granted to use up any remaining stocks of m73, M81 or m82 scopes at about the same time. You could try to line up a scope type with rifle serial number but personally I think that would just be splitting hairs.

A couple of years ago there was a Type 3 (sn 35335) on eBay still sealed in the factory carton which was dated March 7, 1945. This of course was well after A4 production was concluded. It's quite possible some or even all the Type 3 scopes were spare parts and not used in original production.

 

[kraigWY]

Question for Kraig and your pictured rifle. On your A4 with the Lyman Alaskan, does your safety clear the scope? I have two original A4s. I have two Alaskan scopes. One is a mil issue "B" prefix, and the other is an A prefix. One of them has a longer rear eye piece like yours looks like and the safety does not go all the way over. The other works fine. I am just curious if yours engages all the way properly. Thanks, Dave

Not totally, you can pop up the safety until it is on safe, but it doesn't clear completely. It hits the scope but still easy to flip off when needed.

Doesn't bother me since I don't load and chamber until I'm ready to shoot. If there is no round in the chamber, you don't need a safety. But again it does pop up enough to be on safe.

 

[majvret]

Thanks that answered my question and showed my one of my scope are the same as yours. Dave

 

[JGaynor]

Regarding the safety and the use of a Lyman Alaskan. If you mount the scope with the w&e turret forward of the front ring the safety will clear the back of the eyepiece. I have a picture from an 1943 TM which shows the Alaskan mounted that way. As far as i know its the only "official" picture of the A4 with a Lyman.
The Alaskan and the Weaver 330 both had very generous eye relief so the forward mounting is not a problem.
I just joined so i will locate it and post a copy in a day or so. BTW I was the author of the description of the various Weaver 330/M73B1 Scopes that appears in the post above

Regards,

Jim

 

[Mike Radford]

Regarding the safety and the use of a Lyman Alaskan. If you mount the scope with the w&e turret forward of the front ring the safety will clear the back of the eyepiece. I have a picture from an 1943 TM which shows the Alaskan mounted that way. As far as i know its the only "official" picture of the A4 with a Lyman.
The Alaskan and the Weaver 330 both had very generous eye relief so the forward mounting is not a problem.
I just joined so i will locate it and post a copy in a day or so. BTW I was the author of the description of the various Weaver 330/M73B1 Scopes that appears in the post above

Regards,

Jim

HI Jim, Glad you joined and welcome. We are blessed to have you and your knowledge here. Best regards.

Do you have any opinion on the two types of occular bell lengths on the Alaskans? I have been told that one length was for commericial use and one for the military and the M82. Thanks.

 

[JGaynor]

[snip]
Do you have any opinion on the two types of occular bell lengths on the Alaskans? I have been told that one length was for commericial use and one for the military and the M82. Thanks.

Mike nothing definitive. I believe I read that some excess Gi parts were used when Lyman resumed civilian production. Those parts would have the GI stock numbers (7nnnnnn). Another possibility to keep in mind is that some of the GI scopes were made by Wollensak. Possibly some minor dimensional differences?

Wish I could be of more help.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Mike Radford]

Thanks Jim.

 

[majvret]

Good reference Jim. If anyone comes across more information on the different ocular bell lengths of the Alaskan Scopes please post.

 

[AK Sgt Maj]

218Bee - Good looking rifle. Is that an original A4 stock?

Kraig - Thanks for the reference to the TM 9-1270. I have one ordered up.


UPDATE: I have my stripped action being shipped to me now. I won it off the CMP auctions. Quite excited to get this going.

I also have a friend that has a real A4 bolt I will prob jump on (Wants $400). Will post some pics first to ensure its real. If its not, then I will talk the price down. Anything in particular to take pic of? I will post a pic of top view, under the bolt, and of the safety.
As I understand it the bolt needs to be R marked under the bolt with a proof punch, the handle not look like a kid with a dremel took after it, and the safety is rounded. Will update pics when I meet this weekend to check it out.

I also picked up a C stock. It is clean stock and has a notch cut out for the bolt. I dont think its a real A4 stock as there are no cartouches (punchmarks). Does there have to be any marks for the stock to be real? Might have got taken on the stock, but live and learn (paid $250). The CMP ran out of C stocks for the 03A3 so I went looking and kinda jumped on the first thing I saw. Shoulda waited I spose.

Will post pics of everything as I get it in the mail.

This was supposed to be a long project, but I got so excited researching it and looking up parts, it has quickly consumed me.

regards,
DT

PS - NEED A 9-43 Dated 2-groove to match my action. If anyone has one they willing to get rid of, let me know.

The surplus military stocks that are in unissued condition do not have the cartouches on them. I have bought 4 scant stocks, for fitting to the rifles I have worked on, and none of them had any. The books and articles that I have seen all stated that. They all came in the old original cardboard boxes, with the maker and stock numbers. By the way, I've read that most A4's wound up with scant stocks, as they got rebuilt.

 

[JGaynor]

The surplus military stocks that are in unissued condition do not have the cartouches on them. I have bought 4 scant stocks, for fitting to the rifles I have worked on, and none of them had any. The books and articles that I have seen all stated that. They all came in the old original cardboard boxes, with the maker and stock numbers. By the way, I've read that most A4's wound up with scant stocks, as they got rebuilt.

Inspection and acceptance stamps (cartouches) were applied only to original rifles at the various manufacturing plants. In the case of the M1903A4 only at Remington. Early rifles were marked with "FJA" (with or without the rectangular surround) and the Ordnance Crest. Later production from the spring of 43 added the block letters "RA" (Remington Arms) adjacent to the inspection stamps.

Stocks manufactured by the Keystone Company had an upside down "K" stamped in the magazine cutoff notch. Stocks made at Springfield Armory had an "S".

When rifles were rebuilt th mark of the rebuilding depot or arsenal was typically applied to the stock. Practices varied over time. At one point if the original inspection stamps were still distinct the rebuild marks were to applied on top of them. However many times during the rebuild the original marks were sanded off or the whole stock was replaced.

The original specifications for the A4 called for full pistol grip stocks and 4 groove barrels. AS time went on in 43 and the pressure to deliver the rifles increased changes were made. 1. The M1903A1 stock (wartime version of the "c" stock) was permitted to be made with either a full pistol grip or the scant pistol grip. Otherwise the stocks were identical. Scant stocks began to appear on original Remington A4 production in the late summer early fall of 1943 in addition to being used as replacements 2. The two groove barrels were considered to be good enough and many A4's were equipped with them in later production.

Dtros You have kind of hit on the crux of the issue facing folks who want to restore an A4. Do I try to restore it to as issued condition (even with some wear)? Or do I restore it to "as rebuilt"? For what its worth at least half the surviving A4's have been rebuilt at least once. Nothing wrong with a good rebuild. Also if you ever see an A4 in like "super Minty" condition chances are about 99.9% its fresh from a rebuild.

If your "C" stock has no Inspection stamps, no subinspector stamps on the bottom in front of the magazine box and no "P" in a circular or square surround on the grip or wrist it may well be a spare never used by the military. Most important about the bolt handle notch - it should be a perfect "U" if its a "V" its a fake. The sides (edges) should be sharp - If rounded over some one has been screwing around with sandpaper. Later production A4 stocks tended to have two small flats in the notch at about 11 and 1 o'clock.

Hope this helps . lets us know if you have any questions.

Regards

Jim

 

[D_TROS]

Thanks Jim, I appreciate your feedback. I believe the notch to be a fake on my stock after further research and wished I did research before I purchased. A fool and their money...

UPDATE!

Got the action and bolt together at last. A match made in heaven. Super excited moving along with this project. The books mentioned above really help with part identifications so moving forward should be pretty easy.
I also got a line on a 12-43 barrel so I will prob pick that up.

If ANYBODY gets a line on a punch/proof marked A4 barrel, I will pay well for it. Want to do a correct rebuild as JG mentioned. If not, I may sell this action and bet a barreled action from the CMP. After spending so much time and money on an M40A1 build, I cant leave this beauty short of authentic without feeling like I cheated it.

Regards,
DT

 

[packratt]

Numrich Gun Parts has surplus new surplus bent bolts, both stripped or complete.

Will the A4 bent bolts work in both the 1903 and 1903A3?

 

[AK Sgt Maj]

Yes. I tried one in my 03 Sporter and it fits and headspaces fine.

 

[classicshooter]

So in the spirit of the thread, building a 1903a4, would a Weaver K2.5 be a correct scope? I see it mentioned pretty often on the forums, but I do not see it in any of my 1903 books.

 

[kraigWY]

There were over 29,000 'A4's produced. Weaver being a small company had trouble keeping up so other commercial Weavers were substituted including their K 2.5's. I believe that is why the CMP included them in their authorize non-issued substituted list (along with the Lyman Alaskan).