**2014 JC Steel Target Challenge, Sponsored by Seekins Precision
- Thread starter Rifle Barrel Blanks
- Start date
Good idea! Looks like it could be in the 35-40 degree neighborhood, Hopefully it does not snow on us!!
**2014 JC Steel Target Challenge, Sponsored by Seekins Precision
It was cold and unfortunately due to weather/visibility yesterday we had to cancel the Sunday stages/scores around 2:00 or so. Other than that there was some impressive shooting no doubt! And getting to RO with CaptianKirk and seeing his new hit indicator LED system was BADASS! That's going to be one wicked system for sure!
Mike
Hells Canyon Armory
It was cold and unfortunately due to weather/visibility yesterday we had to cancel the Sunday stages/scores around 2:00 or so. Other than that there was some impressive shooting no doubt! And getting to RO with CaptianKirk and seeing his new hit indicator LED system was BADASS! That's going to be one wicked system for sure!
Mike
Hells Canyon Armory
Great match
Great match with lots of very accomplished shooters. Not sure if the mover on Stage 10 was yours or not Karl, but it functioned flawlessly for two days of freezing temperatures (except for running out of gas late on Day 1) -- very reliable.
Mucho kudos to Jake for coming up with a challenging course of fire and organizing 200 people into a cohesive unit that got results.
Great match with lots of very accomplished shooters. Not sure if the mover on Stage 10 was yours or not Karl, but it functioned flawlessly for two days of freezing temperatures (except for running out of gas late on Day 1) -- very reliable.
Mucho kudos to Jake for coming up with a challenging course of fire and organizing 200 people into a cohesive unit that got results.
GREAT MATCH, I always LOVE ROing this match. I get to see some AMAZING shooters come though and show me how it is done!!!! Hats off to the sponsors that prize table was GREAT!
Had a lot of fun Jake! The weather was tough but Precision rifle math shooters are tougher! Great job handling all the people.
How about a mid summer "beat the heat" fun shoot???
Thank you
How about a mid summer "beat the heat" fun shoot???
Thank you
Thanks for the match Jake, thank you Jubilee Youth Ranch and all the fine people there that helped, thank you all the RO's hope you all have thawed out, and thank you all the sponsors, I am always impressed by everyone's generosity. Hope everyone made it home safe, driving was as challenging as the JC Steel shoothouse.
Congratulations to the Top Shooters! (and those of us that finished ELSEWHERE!) Thanks Jake for a challenging course of fire, RO's and volunteers, and to Seekins Precision and the many many businesses and sponsors who graciously donated to the prize table. Friends it was nice to see you and I hope you had safe travels. I've never seen so damn many flashing lights and cars in the ditch as I did on the way home, and probably some of the worst roads I've been on. The trip home gave me extra time to think about... ahem WTF I was doing on a number of stages.
Thinking about next year already.
Thinking about next year already.
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great match
thanks Jake for all the hard work you put into the match.
nothing we can do about the weather.
thanks to Seekins Precision and all the other sponsors for making it happen.
The prize table and the food was great again.
thanks Jake for all the hard work you put into the match.
nothing we can do about the weather.
thanks to Seekins Precision and all the other sponsors for making it happen.
The prize table and the food was great again.
Thanks for all your efforts, Jake! It was a blast to be a part of! Great venue, terrific hospitality, a challenging, but not overwhelming COF - I've never shot my rifle past 1100 and seeing that light indicator blink on the target at 1315-yards was awesome! Also, I really enjoyed Carl and Terrell's instruction and guidance on Friday - well worth the extra day. I Can't wait 'til next year! If I could make a suggestion,... it would be nice to have the match at least at the third weekend of March as daylight savings will be in effect, and the weather 'should' be a little more predictable,... My drive back Sunday turned what should have been a little over three-hours into a little over six-hours,... and I learned all I NEVER wanted to know about installing/uninstalling snow chains on my front wheel drive car,... That aside, it was a great time and I got to shoot with some great people,... God bless!
Ryan
Ryan
I also want to express my gratitude and offer a big thank you to Jake, the staff and boys at Jubilee Youth Ranch, the RSOs and other volunteers, and also the sponsors that contributed to the great prize table. This was another awesome year for the JC Steel Match and I anticipate it will only continue to get better in the coming years. It was fun to meet and get to know other shooters and as well as see familiar faces at the one Washington's big shooting events. It was interesting to see what the COF would bring this year, and I was delighted to encounter a good mix of challenging stages and environmental conditions to put our precision marksmanship skills to test. I also attended the shooting clinic on Friday and getting instruction from Carl and Terrell. I believe having the opportunity to learn and practice some new things helped me to pick up some additional points during the match.
I like Ryan's suggestion of possibly pushing the date back next year to take advantage of daylight savings time and maybe a little warmer weather.
Thanks Again!
Steve
I like Ryan's suggestion of possibly pushing the date back next year to take advantage of daylight savings time and maybe a little warmer weather.
Thanks Again!
Steve
An awesome match. My hat is off to Jake for the incredibly well organized COF & match. Thanks you Glenn Seekins for the outstanding food. To the sponsors: Wow! There were great prizes all the way down. My most sincere appreciation to the range officers who hung tough through some very challenging conditions. You guys rock!
Cheers,
DC
Cheers,
DC
Thanks to everyone at JC Steel!
Copying this from my WaGuns.org post:
I just want to offer my sincerest gratitude to Jake and co. for putting on such a spectacularly awesome event. He and his staff had their hands full around the clock with who knows what that goes into making something like this work, but to us shooters it was clean and clear. Massive kudos for the event's organization, staffing, and catering. Despite the weather closing us down early today, I still had one of the most fun, educational and formative rifle shooting experiences of my life! I met a bunch of great enthusiasts, learned a TON about wind and shooting fundamentals, and got one serious workout! (holy HELL my legs are beat...) This was my first competition ever, and I'm coming home with a laundry list of skills to work on. I'll come shoot at your ranch any day of the week(hint hint summer match), and I can't wait until next year!
Also, a special thanks to Carl and Terrell(?) for Friday's training. Six hours with two open, engaging, and charismatic professionals who radiated "badass" was money well spent.
I'll update this post with pics and videos tomorrow, but for now I'm going to finish this beer and go fall down.
EDIT: pics as promised. Linking directly from G+, hopefully it works.
Pre-match training day.
100 yard sight-in.
My buddy Matt with his 700 in an XLR.
The view from the bluff.
Obligatory panorama.
Moving target at 500 yards. Link to video
I only took a few pictures during the actual competition, and for that I'm regretful. My GoPro was stolen a few months ago, so the only video I was able to take was with my phone when my hands weren't otherwise occupied. I wish I'd taken a point-and-shoot or something, because honestly it was simply too cold to want to take a glove off.
Day 1.
Spinners! Link to video
Hiking away from Stage 1's 1013 yard heartbreaker.
Day 2.
No pictures of the course, but here's a panorama from the parking lot after the match was called on account of weather:
Not photographed on days 1 & 2: the mad scrambles between the stages of the shoot house, the comfiest rock you've ever shot a rifle from, a half naked man hopping into his thermal underwear as he rethought his decision to not start the day wearing them, the white clouds from successful hits on tannerite, new friends, shit-eating grins, fatigued disappointment, hard-eyed game faces, and satisfaction from well placed shots. This was a great weekend.
Copying this from my WaGuns.org post:
I just want to offer my sincerest gratitude to Jake and co. for putting on such a spectacularly awesome event. He and his staff had their hands full around the clock with who knows what that goes into making something like this work, but to us shooters it was clean and clear. Massive kudos for the event's organization, staffing, and catering. Despite the weather closing us down early today, I still had one of the most fun, educational and formative rifle shooting experiences of my life! I met a bunch of great enthusiasts, learned a TON about wind and shooting fundamentals, and got one serious workout! (holy HELL my legs are beat...) This was my first competition ever, and I'm coming home with a laundry list of skills to work on. I'll come shoot at your ranch any day of the week(hint hint summer match), and I can't wait until next year!
Also, a special thanks to Carl and Terrell(?) for Friday's training. Six hours with two open, engaging, and charismatic professionals who radiated "badass" was money well spent.
I'll update this post with pics and videos tomorrow, but for now I'm going to finish this beer and go fall down.
EDIT: pics as promised. Linking directly from G+, hopefully it works.
Pre-match training day.
100 yard sight-in.
My buddy Matt with his 700 in an XLR.
The view from the bluff.
Obligatory panorama.
Moving target at 500 yards. Link to video
I only took a few pictures during the actual competition, and for that I'm regretful. My GoPro was stolen a few months ago, so the only video I was able to take was with my phone when my hands weren't otherwise occupied. I wish I'd taken a point-and-shoot or something, because honestly it was simply too cold to want to take a glove off.
Day 1.
Spinners! Link to video
Hiking away from Stage 1's 1013 yard heartbreaker.
Day 2.
No pictures of the course, but here's a panorama from the parking lot after the match was called on account of weather:
Not photographed on days 1 & 2: the mad scrambles between the stages of the shoot house, the comfiest rock you've ever shot a rifle from, a half naked man hopping into his thermal underwear as he rethought his decision to not start the day wearing them, the white clouds from successful hits on tannerite, new friends, shit-eating grins, fatigued disappointment, hard-eyed game faces, and satisfaction from well placed shots. This was a great weekend.
As everybody else has said, thanks so much to Jake and all of the RO's for this match. The shooting location and stages were excellent all the way around, literally.
I'd like to publically state though that I was more than a little upset at having completed seven of the nine stages on Sunday and not having those scores counted. I was a bit baffled how some shooters were only able to complete two stages in the same amount of time. It is my personal opinion that shooting should have continued. I was barely able to make out the mover at 500, but still there was enough to engage. I get it that if you can't see the target, you can't shoot it, but that comes with a match being held early March in the northern portion of the U.S. Maybe I'm just being an asshat about it?
Regardless, it was still a fun match and I learned a few more things and met some really cool people. Cancelling the scores from Sunday was just highly frustrating to me.
Geb
I'd like to publically state though that I was more than a little upset at having completed seven of the nine stages on Sunday and not having those scores counted. I was a bit baffled how some shooters were only able to complete two stages in the same amount of time. It is my personal opinion that shooting should have continued. I was barely able to make out the mover at 500, but still there was enough to engage. I get it that if you can't see the target, you can't shoot it, but that comes with a match being held early March in the northern portion of the U.S. Maybe I'm just being an asshat about it?
Regardless, it was still a fun match and I learned a few more things and met some really cool people. Cancelling the scores from Sunday was just highly frustrating to me.
Geb
I completely agree. My squad completed six out of nine stages. The squads that completed two to four were probably not hustling. If there's two or three squads waiting at a stage (which there was), then that squad should have moved onto the next stage (which was what my squad did). After the ceasefire was called and it was explained that Sunday's scores would be calculated by taking an average of the stages you shot that day and applied to the stages you missed, I was happy about that. My squad was ok with it. When it was announced that Saturday's scores were going to be used for the whole match and Sunday's shooting was "for fun" I wasn't a happy camper. It could have been handled differently and I would have stuck around until 10pm if need be while the scores were calculated.
Geb and Gofast thanks for the thoughts,
It was a tough decision for sure. I made the best choice based on what I thought was most fair.
Example, if you start the day with 70 points and in 3rd place, shoot 7 stages on day 2, averaging a fairly good 8 points per hit, and have 2 stages you were not able to shoot.
9 stages total on day two. 8 points on average,total points on day 2 would be 72.
Total for the match a very respectable 142 points. You worked hard for those points, and that would be a very good score, possibly getting a top 3 placement.
OR,
another guys in 60th place, enjoying the match but not shooting all that well on day one, because he's an average mid pack shooter, He starts day two with 45 points.
He shoots two stages on Sunday. For some reason I am not sure. For this analogy It doesn't matter.
For his two stages he has a score of 12 for the first stage and 14 for the second. Average of 13 points per stage on day two.
you guessed it, 13 points over 9 stages is 117 point, plus the 45 he started with, and he ends up smoking everyone with 162 points.
Is that fair for everyone? The first shooter is one of the best shooters in the nation, but we tell him because a couple other guys only shot two stages and had good scores on those stages he got bumped back, maybe out of the top three slots. It would have been a mess honestly.
I am not sure the top 3 shooters in the match would have even been in the top 5. It just was not worth the confusion and in my opinion would not have been fair to everyone.
But what are you thoughts? I am learning and I am all ears for good ideas that promote fairness.
Next year we are having in 2 months later anyway!!! Don't tell anyone though!!
It was a tough decision for sure. I made the best choice based on what I thought was most fair.
Example, if you start the day with 70 points and in 3rd place, shoot 7 stages on day 2, averaging a fairly good 8 points per hit, and have 2 stages you were not able to shoot.
9 stages total on day two. 8 points on average,total points on day 2 would be 72.
Total for the match a very respectable 142 points. You worked hard for those points, and that would be a very good score, possibly getting a top 3 placement.
OR,
another guys in 60th place, enjoying the match but not shooting all that well on day one, because he's an average mid pack shooter, He starts day two with 45 points.
He shoots two stages on Sunday. For some reason I am not sure. For this analogy It doesn't matter.
For his two stages he has a score of 12 for the first stage and 14 for the second. Average of 13 points per stage on day two.
you guessed it, 13 points over 9 stages is 117 point, plus the 45 he started with, and he ends up smoking everyone with 162 points.
Is that fair for everyone? The first shooter is one of the best shooters in the nation, but we tell him because a couple other guys only shot two stages and had good scores on those stages he got bumped back, maybe out of the top three slots. It would have been a mess honestly.
I am not sure the top 3 shooters in the match would have even been in the top 5. It just was not worth the confusion and in my opinion would not have been fair to everyone.
But what are you thoughts? I am learning and I am all ears for good ideas that promote fairness.
Next year we are having in 2 months later anyway!!! Don't tell anyone though!!
Thanks Jake, Sponsors, and RO's I had a great time despite the bad weather.
My favorite stages were the fun house and the challenging positional shooting it presented, I need to bring a saw next year to get rid of that pesky crossmember above Saturday's #2 window though.
Followed by the Tanerite stage, it's always fun to blow shit up.
My least favorite stage was the log stage, I guess because it kicked my butt.
I look forward to next year.
Scott
My favorite stages were the fun house and the challenging positional shooting it presented, I need to bring a saw next year to get rid of that pesky crossmember above Saturday's #2 window though.
Followed by the Tanerite stage, it's always fun to blow shit up.
My least favorite stage was the log stage, I guess because it kicked my butt.
I look forward to next year.
Scott
How? It's not my first rodeo. It's common sense. If you walk to a stage and there are one or two squads waiting to shoot the stage, not counting the squad currently shooting the stage, it would be a good idea to skip that stage and come back to shoot it later. Otherwise you'll be in that situation all day and not get any shooting done. My squad skipped two or three stages just to find one we could shoot right away. After that we shot five stages after that with almost no wait. It seemed that everyone was piled up on the mover side of the mountain, it was smooth on the power line side. I appreciate Jake's feedback and understand the difficult decision. His scenario is about the only reason why that scoring method would not work. Maybe the squads that only shot 2 stages could have stayed up there and shot the close range stuff to try to get up to a minimum stage count. If all squads shot 5 to 6 stages instead of the 9, it would be fair for everyone.
It takes a lot of work and diligence to drum up that much support and help for a match of that size. 120+ plus shooters is a lot of mouths to feed. 20+ different statges takes considerable amount of time as well. So good job to and thanks to all those who volunteered and supported this match.
A few details that had me a little more than disappointed.
1) With that many shooters and that many stages it shoudl have been anticipated that the days would be long. My squad waited for over an hour at our first stage for the ROs to arrive. Last year worked much better with ROs walking their respective squad to there first firing point.
2) a few squads rushed to complete day 1 firing, a few pushing into dark to complete their COF. Looking for a beat up black target during twighlight had a distinct disadvantage to some shooters. One I am aware of had to shoot the mover with his reticle turned on.
3) Most importantly, myself and another shooter witnessed a professionally sponsored team, of which, the owner of the sponsoring company is a memeber, blatantly cheat during a stage. It was a huge disappointment to witness the owner of one of the most prestigous rifle building companies in the United States flat out act in an unprofessional manner so that his shooter could attempt to gain more points during a stage...and it wasnt just him. 4 members of his squad were involved. I witnessed it, my shooter partner witnessed it, and the RO witnessed it. After talking to several other shooters and ROs, apparently this team pulled maneuvers on several stages...but I didnt witness those and cant confirm what other saw. I walked away wondering is a sponsorship and a bigger name provides reprieve from acting in a professional manner and conducting yourself with sportsmanship. Maybe I am being to harsh and a little opinionated but I would have DQ'd all 4 members immediately.
A few details that had me a little more than disappointed.
1) With that many shooters and that many stages it shoudl have been anticipated that the days would be long. My squad waited for over an hour at our first stage for the ROs to arrive. Last year worked much better with ROs walking their respective squad to there first firing point.
2) a few squads rushed to complete day 1 firing, a few pushing into dark to complete their COF. Looking for a beat up black target during twighlight had a distinct disadvantage to some shooters. One I am aware of had to shoot the mover with his reticle turned on.
3) Most importantly, myself and another shooter witnessed a professionally sponsored team, of which, the owner of the sponsoring company is a memeber, blatantly cheat during a stage. It was a huge disappointment to witness the owner of one of the most prestigous rifle building companies in the United States flat out act in an unprofessional manner so that his shooter could attempt to gain more points during a stage...and it wasnt just him. 4 members of his squad were involved. I witnessed it, my shooter partner witnessed it, and the RO witnessed it. After talking to several other shooters and ROs, apparently this team pulled maneuvers on several stages...but I didnt witness those and cant confirm what other saw. I walked away wondering is a sponsorship and a bigger name provides reprieve from acting in a professional manner and conducting yourself with sportsmanship. Maybe I am being to harsh and a little opinionated but I would have DQ'd all 4 members immediately.
Jake,
I'd have preferred to continue shooting. Weather sucks at times, I get that. But being a competition, you have to take the bad weather with the good weather. We can't expect to only have matches when the skies are clear and winds are calm. Some people will get to shoot when weather is decent for the day and then the next person will come up and weather will have gotten worse. Do we wait until everybody gets to shoot in the exact same conditions? Not in this sport, the weather can change from one shooter to the next. I understand not everybody will feel the same way.
I completely understand your reasoning for not counting the scores. Like Gofaster23 said, I would have gladly stayed until 10PM also. I wasn't shooting so well on the first day but was definitely shooting to my potential on Sunday, thus my frustration with not getting those scores. This is the second PRS match I've been to where the second day of shooting was not counted or flat out didn't occur due to rain/weather. I felt like my entry fee and other expenses were wasted.
I'm really not trying to be a PITA, just bringing forth how I'd like to see future matches improved. Not cancelling due to WX (unless severe lightning/tornado/hurricane, etc.) and keep the competitors moving along. I'd heard rumor that one whole stage of shooters bypassed two other stages to get to a particular stage faster and therefore got everything out of order. I'm not sure why, but that obviously wasn't how things were briefed to be done. This is just a rumor however, I didn't see it happen personally so others with first hand knowledge would have to verify.
Thanks again for the match Jake, I really did enjoy shooting the stages and the difficulty. You have a great location and stage designs.
Geb
I'd have preferred to continue shooting. Weather sucks at times, I get that. But being a competition, you have to take the bad weather with the good weather. We can't expect to only have matches when the skies are clear and winds are calm. Some people will get to shoot when weather is decent for the day and then the next person will come up and weather will have gotten worse. Do we wait until everybody gets to shoot in the exact same conditions? Not in this sport, the weather can change from one shooter to the next. I understand not everybody will feel the same way.
I completely understand your reasoning for not counting the scores. Like Gofaster23 said, I would have gladly stayed until 10PM also. I wasn't shooting so well on the first day but was definitely shooting to my potential on Sunday, thus my frustration with not getting those scores. This is the second PRS match I've been to where the second day of shooting was not counted or flat out didn't occur due to rain/weather. I felt like my entry fee and other expenses were wasted.
I'm really not trying to be a PITA, just bringing forth how I'd like to see future matches improved. Not cancelling due to WX (unless severe lightning/tornado/hurricane, etc.) and keep the competitors moving along. I'd heard rumor that one whole stage of shooters bypassed two other stages to get to a particular stage faster and therefore got everything out of order. I'm not sure why, but that obviously wasn't how things were briefed to be done. This is just a rumor however, I didn't see it happen personally so others with first hand knowledge would have to verify.
Thanks again for the match Jake, I really did enjoy shooting the stages and the difficulty. You have a great location and stage designs.
Geb
It's not my first rodeo either. I do know that because a large squad jumped in front of us at our second stage, we had to wait 40 minutes to an hour at the next three stages.
I'm pretty sure that it was briefed to shoot the stages in a clockwise manner. I can see bypassing a stage if there are two squads already waiting. How a squad jumped in front of another by the second stage though is confusing. Was there a reason why? I think they should have kept the rotation in order and things would have gone smoothly like it did on Saturday.
We got bit by that too. Our first 4 stages went smoothly because we were ready to shoot and helped the ROs keep things moving. We didn't skip any stages or displace any other groups. Our 5th stage took an hour of standing around before we got to shoot, then what would have been our 6th stage never happened because after another hour of waiting in line the match was called off. A group (or groups) stampeding around the match skipping back and forth between stages certainly causes problems for everyone else.
As to the mention of cheating from above... I didn't witness it myself but my squad got to a stage where apparently it had just happened (and the squad in question had already moved on) and there was quite a lot of buzz about it. I'd be disappointed to learn that it had happened, and I'd be exceptionally disappointed to learn that the match administration was aware of it and nothing was done regardless of who the people in question are.
I loved the match and love the cause. The stages were well thought out and the RO's were pleasant, professional and enthusiastic.
I witnessed the cheating too, there was no doubt this team was cheating and I called them out. I have had a connection to the shooting sports as a coach and match official at state, national and world events. I have witnessed cheating before and the competitors and teams cheating are always disqualified. They are not just disqualified from the stage but the entire event and frequently are banned from future events for a period of time. The PRS needs to consider this approach for members caught cheating.
I looked up the names of the cheaters on the PRS site and noted that they rank quite high. Have they really earned this standing? I know how hard it is to train to a high level, but to cheat to obtain a high ranking is theft. It is theft from those competitors that also train hard, pay the price and enter the field to compete. I wish I could name your names and the name of the company sponsor. You guys should be embarrassed and ashamed of how you operate, you suck.
I witnessed the cheating too, there was no doubt this team was cheating and I called them out. I have had a connection to the shooting sports as a coach and match official at state, national and world events. I have witnessed cheating before and the competitors and teams cheating are always disqualified. They are not just disqualified from the stage but the entire event and frequently are banned from future events for a period of time. The PRS needs to consider this approach for members caught cheating.
I looked up the names of the cheaters on the PRS site and noted that they rank quite high. Have they really earned this standing? I know how hard it is to train to a high level, but to cheat to obtain a high ranking is theft. It is theft from those competitors that also train hard, pay the price and enter the field to compete. I wish I could name your names and the name of the company sponsor. You guys should be embarrassed and ashamed of how you operate, you suck.
the back up occurred right of the bat when they cancelled the two stages, 7-8. Those squads had to go somewhere and they moved in the clockwise direction like instructed. This stacked up two additional squads. I am guessing they should have sent one squad back to stages 5 or 6 and one forward.
I was in a squad that did not finish day one, so we had shoot two stages in a row at one location. Positional and then Positional with gear. The next squad caught us as we finished the stage. After that there was little wait, heck I didn't have time to make a cup of coffee in a jet boil for three stages!
I thought Jake did the best he could with the weather that was presented, the only thing that I think could have been done is go cold on Sunday and paint all the targets Orange. I was the second to last shooter at the shoot house and I could not see a 470 yrd target. You were looking for the posts and a black strap and shooting where you thought the target was. I made solid hits, but the target acquisition time KILLED you. It took way to much time and you were at a distinct disadvantage.
As mentioned above, the cheating is what disturbed me. I did not witness it, but if it happened the way it was described, then it was simply over the line. If it happened the way that I have heard, then the shooters should have been DQed for the match, period! I did not hear if they received stage DQ's or not. If it did happen then I think ALL the shooters deserve a apology from them! If they are PRS shooters, their scores from JC should not count for season totals.
I was in a squad that did not finish day one, so we had shoot two stages in a row at one location. Positional and then Positional with gear. The next squad caught us as we finished the stage. After that there was little wait, heck I didn't have time to make a cup of coffee in a jet boil for three stages!
I thought Jake did the best he could with the weather that was presented, the only thing that I think could have been done is go cold on Sunday and paint all the targets Orange. I was the second to last shooter at the shoot house and I could not see a 470 yrd target. You were looking for the posts and a black strap and shooting where you thought the target was. I made solid hits, but the target acquisition time KILLED you. It took way to much time and you were at a distinct disadvantage.
As mentioned above, the cheating is what disturbed me. I did not witness it, but if it happened the way it was described, then it was simply over the line. If it happened the way that I have heard, then the shooters should have been DQed for the match, period! I did not hear if they received stage DQ's or not. If it did happen then I think ALL the shooters deserve a apology from them! If they are PRS shooters, their scores from JC should not count for season totals.
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I was in one of the squads who's day 2 starting stage was pulled prior to the start of day 2. We essentially had no stage to start on so were instructed to follow the pre-determined clockwise pattern of movement and go to the next stage in the rotation. This put two groups on one 'the rock' stage. To add to this delay we were the last group brought to the mountain and waited another 30 minutes for the RO's to get over since they were driving shooters to their starting stages.
About 3 shooters into our first squad a large group of shooters jumped to the shoot house stage 11 and it went downhill from there. A minimum of 30-45 minute wait on our next two stages and about 2 hours on stage 2 prior to the match being called since we could not see past about 400 yards.
I am in full agreement with many here that if there is an open stage to go shoot it and circle back... HOWEVER. This was not the instructions given by the match director and things seemed to move along just fine on Saturday with shooters staying with their squads and in the pre-determined pattern. Once one group made their own choice to go against the match director's instructions it is easy to see the results pretty much sucked for most of the shooters on Sunday. You were either in a squad that was literally running between stages with zero downtime to chow or hydrate OR you were in a squad that got to sit on their asses, not move or shoot for hours on end. All because a few made the decision to go against instructions. If the instructions had been to jump backed up stages and come back, all shooters would have known this as they do with other large scale matches and things might have turned out differently.
Regarding the cheating issues with a sponsored team.... I noticed a couple of their shooters finished in the top 10. As a first time shooter at this event finishing in the top 30 I felt incredible happy with my performance. I didn't cheat, game or brake any rules. Only 11 points out of the top ten I am fairly pissed to hear directly from the shooters who witnessed this and the RO in great detail about how this went down. I am incredibly disappointed these 4 shooters who were witnessed doing this were not DQ'd from the match as it reflects poorly on all the efforts by so many people to put this match on. I will be contemplating not returning to this event in the future if this team is returning. They took away the integrity of the event, the PRS series and the match director who clearly put a ton of time and energy into this event. I can only hope that because this was a PRS match that the PRS series directors investigate this and take action. I am sure the top 10 finish by two of the shooters helped their PRS standings and in turn hurt the rest of their competitors. In the end, I leave with mixed feelings about this match. The match director put a great deal of effort into putting on a good match, the RO's were great and my best experiences was being able to meet and shoot with so many great guys and gals. I made a ton of new friends who I look forward to shooting with in the future. On the flip side, my first taste of a PRS match has been soured by the cheating that was witnessed and those shooters not being DQ'd or penalized in any way, AND finishing in the top 10... I hope this is not foreshadowing to how this event will go in the future.
Thank you to Jake and the RO crew for doing in my opinion nearly everything possible to make this match run smoothly. I am sure minor changes will be made with the lessons learned from this year's event and it can only improve. Thank you to nearly all the sponsors for putting your name on this event. Lastly, thank you to my fellow shooters who made this event memorable.
About 3 shooters into our first squad a large group of shooters jumped to the shoot house stage 11 and it went downhill from there. A minimum of 30-45 minute wait on our next two stages and about 2 hours on stage 2 prior to the match being called since we could not see past about 400 yards.
I am in full agreement with many here that if there is an open stage to go shoot it and circle back... HOWEVER. This was not the instructions given by the match director and things seemed to move along just fine on Saturday with shooters staying with their squads and in the pre-determined pattern. Once one group made their own choice to go against the match director's instructions it is easy to see the results pretty much sucked for most of the shooters on Sunday. You were either in a squad that was literally running between stages with zero downtime to chow or hydrate OR you were in a squad that got to sit on their asses, not move or shoot for hours on end. All because a few made the decision to go against instructions. If the instructions had been to jump backed up stages and come back, all shooters would have known this as they do with other large scale matches and things might have turned out differently.
Regarding the cheating issues with a sponsored team.... I noticed a couple of their shooters finished in the top 10. As a first time shooter at this event finishing in the top 30 I felt incredible happy with my performance. I didn't cheat, game or brake any rules. Only 11 points out of the top ten I am fairly pissed to hear directly from the shooters who witnessed this and the RO in great detail about how this went down. I am incredibly disappointed these 4 shooters who were witnessed doing this were not DQ'd from the match as it reflects poorly on all the efforts by so many people to put this match on. I will be contemplating not returning to this event in the future if this team is returning. They took away the integrity of the event, the PRS series and the match director who clearly put a ton of time and energy into this event. I can only hope that because this was a PRS match that the PRS series directors investigate this and take action. I am sure the top 10 finish by two of the shooters helped their PRS standings and in turn hurt the rest of their competitors. In the end, I leave with mixed feelings about this match. The match director put a great deal of effort into putting on a good match, the RO's were great and my best experiences was being able to meet and shoot with so many great guys and gals. I made a ton of new friends who I look forward to shooting with in the future. On the flip side, my first taste of a PRS match has been soured by the cheating that was witnessed and those shooters not being DQ'd or penalized in any way, AND finishing in the top 10... I hope this is not foreshadowing to how this event will go in the future.
Thank you to Jake and the RO crew for doing in my opinion nearly everything possible to make this match run smoothly. I am sure minor changes will be made with the lessons learned from this year's event and it can only improve. Thank you to nearly all the sponsors for putting your name on this event. Lastly, thank you to my fellow shooters who made this event memorable.
I used to shoot a lot of USPSA (I really should get back into it...) and ANY cheating would be an immediate match DQ for anyone involved whether they were the lowliest D class shooter or a GM class shooter or a match sponsor. The idea that a shooter would be caught cheating and face no penalty and still get to walk the prize table at the end of the match would probably result in a riot at a major USPSA match.
Well we'll see how it's handled. That will show people's (and companies) true colors.
Pretty disappointed if this took place, and disappointed in my fellow competitors.
Pretty disappointed if this took place, and disappointed in my fellow competitors.
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Not to mention self-serving. The squads that "hustled" just unloaded their waits to shoot onto someone else.
Thanks Jake!
I just want to offer my sincerest gratitude to Jake and co. for putting on such a spectacularly awesome event. He and his staff had their hands full around the clock with who knows what that goes into making something like this work, but to us shooters it was clean and clear. Massive kudos for the event's organization, staffing, and catering. Despite the weather closing us down early today, I still had one of the most fun, educational and formative rifle shooting experiences of my life! I met a bunch of great enthusiasts, learned a TON about wind and shooting fundamentals, and got one serious workout! (holy HELL my legs were beat...) This was my first competition ever, and I'm coming home with a laundry list of skills to work on. I'll come shoot at your ranch any day of the week(hint hint summer match), and I can't wait until next year!
Also, a special thanks to Carl and Terrell for Friday's training. Six hours with two open, engaging, and charismatic professionals who radiated "badass" was money well spent.
Here's a few pics from the trip. I only took a few pictures during the actual competition, and for that I'm regretful. Honestly, I was too preoccupied and it was simply too cold to want to take a glove off to snap pics.
Pre-match training day.
100 yard sight-in.
My buddy Matt with his 700 in an XLR.
The view from the bluff.
Obligatory panorama.
Moving target at 500 yards. Link to video
Day 1.
Spinners! Link to video
Hiking away from Stage 1's 1013 yard heartbreaker.
Not photographed on days 1 & 2: the mad scrambles between the stages of the shoot house, the comfiest rock you've ever shot a rifle from, a half naked man hopping into his thermal underwear as he rethought his decision to not start the day wearing them, the white clouds from successful hits on Tannerite, new friends, huge grins, fatigued disappointment, hard-eyed game faces, and satisfaction from well placed shots. This was a great weekend.
I was part of Squad 5, which started Sunday on the Tannerite stage (finishing Saturday's COF) and then started our Sunday COF at that stage as well (KYL hostages). That weak-side 730/940yd course suuuuucked! It took me at least 45 seconds just to get situated and on target. Our squad made it all the way around the bluff, back to Stage 1 (1013yd, 1300yd). When we arrived, the RO's were taking advantage of the cease fire to go out and fix the impact lights on the targets. After about 45 minutes of waiting, we finally got word that the match had been called on account of weather. I don't recall witnessing any cheating, but being my first match, I don't exactly know what to look for. Could somebody please PM me what exactly went down? I'm feeling a little lost in all the vagueness of what you guys are upset about.
I just want to offer my sincerest gratitude to Jake and co. for putting on such a spectacularly awesome event. He and his staff had their hands full around the clock with who knows what that goes into making something like this work, but to us shooters it was clean and clear. Massive kudos for the event's organization, staffing, and catering. Despite the weather closing us down early today, I still had one of the most fun, educational and formative rifle shooting experiences of my life! I met a bunch of great enthusiasts, learned a TON about wind and shooting fundamentals, and got one serious workout! (holy HELL my legs were beat...) This was my first competition ever, and I'm coming home with a laundry list of skills to work on. I'll come shoot at your ranch any day of the week(hint hint summer match), and I can't wait until next year!
Also, a special thanks to Carl and Terrell for Friday's training. Six hours with two open, engaging, and charismatic professionals who radiated "badass" was money well spent.
Here's a few pics from the trip. I only took a few pictures during the actual competition, and for that I'm regretful. Honestly, I was too preoccupied and it was simply too cold to want to take a glove off to snap pics.
Pre-match training day.
100 yard sight-in.
My buddy Matt with his 700 in an XLR.
The view from the bluff.
Obligatory panorama.
Moving target at 500 yards. Link to video
Day 1.
Spinners! Link to video
Hiking away from Stage 1's 1013 yard heartbreaker.
Not photographed on days 1 & 2: the mad scrambles between the stages of the shoot house, the comfiest rock you've ever shot a rifle from, a half naked man hopping into his thermal underwear as he rethought his decision to not start the day wearing them, the white clouds from successful hits on Tannerite, new friends, huge grins, fatigued disappointment, hard-eyed game faces, and satisfaction from well placed shots. This was a great weekend.
I was part of Squad 5, which started Sunday on the Tannerite stage (finishing Saturday's COF) and then started our Sunday COF at that stage as well (KYL hostages). That weak-side 730/940yd course suuuuucked! It took me at least 45 seconds just to get situated and on target. Our squad made it all the way around the bluff, back to Stage 1 (1013yd, 1300yd). When we arrived, the RO's were taking advantage of the cease fire to go out and fix the impact lights on the targets. After about 45 minutes of waiting, we finally got word that the match had been called on account of weather. I don't recall witnessing any cheating, but being my first match, I don't exactly know what to look for. Could somebody please PM me what exactly went down? I'm feeling a little lost in all the vagueness of what you guys are upset about.
I think that it was a great success with a few lessons learned. As an RO the toughest thing was having RO;s that weren't assigned to a stage decide they want to RO "your" stage or they have the machine gun etc. etc. so that is easy to fix. Another issue is on Day 2 when we cut the course to 11 stages... Well not "Stage 13" is "Stage 11" yet when you ask here someone who looks lost is going they say 13 OR 11 and spend time trying to find a stage that WAS 11 the day before but is no longer there. Simple Communication issues that are common.
I also think it would be nice for all stages to have the same amount of points possible ex. 15 per stage. That way is will make fair scoring or "dropping" a stage (points wise) more fair to the shooter/squad etc. But that is just my take. Weather permitting the first day all stages should be completed (ex. 10 stages for 150 possible points) and the second day 7 stages for a possible 95 points. Kinda the same way they score PRS but not going off of top shooter but total possible points.
Thanks to all who came out and shot it was great and a pleasure to meet new people and see old friends. Look forward to shooting it next year.
I also think it would be nice for all stages to have the same amount of points possible ex. 15 per stage. That way is will make fair scoring or "dropping" a stage (points wise) more fair to the shooter/squad etc. But that is just my take. Weather permitting the first day all stages should be completed (ex. 10 stages for 150 possible points) and the second day 7 stages for a possible 95 points. Kinda the same way they score PRS but not going off of top shooter but total possible points.
Thanks to all who came out and shot it was great and a pleasure to meet new people and see old friends. Look forward to shooting it next year.
If you would have only walked over and listened you would have not decided to come on a public forum and accuse anyone of cheating. Im assuming now that your talking about Ryan And Charles Every position those 2 guys shot was ok'd by the R.O. prior to them shooting them. I personally thought it was bullshit that it was allowed and was even arguing with the RO myself as to the Legality of the positions.
The stage description was 3 positions using "Any" gear as props. So yes those Yoga poses were allowed and approved prior to even shooting the stages. Steadying the prop was also OK once in position prior to being on the clock again the RO was asked this prior to the event starting. the 3 R.O.s all ok'ed every thing they did and watched every move they made for Elbows touching the deck of legs touching the poles.
One of your guys complained to Jake and he walked over immediately to me and asked how the stage was shot. I argued that the stage should have had stage equipment and everyone should have had to shoot it the same but Jakes exact words were that he designed the stage to be highly gameable and that's what the stage was about and it was meant to be gamed.
Ive shot LR Tac matches since the start I dont think anyone has shot them longer than me and I have never been accused of cheating and believe me I have kicked plenty for doing so as an RO many can attest to that.
Im not that upset or supprized that you thought what you saw was cheating but let me give you a piece of advice, If you see it, its your responsibility to jump in at the moment it happens and get a ruling on it not after the fact. And posting your opinions on the Internet when you were not involved in the conversations is even a worse idea.
There were 7 guys in our squad that were not on our team that saw and heard every stage and conversation. 2 of them PM'ed me about this thread saying how it was BS. I barley know these guys and they didnt think there was any cheating going on.
Im quite Sure Jake will post and settle the air out on this but these 2 guys are standup guys and yes they will Game the fuck out of a stage if its allowed but they are not cheaters.
George
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I don't get what's going on. I've tried a couple of times to post pictures from the shoot, and it says they need to be approved by a mod. Nothing happens though, it's kind of lame.
I'm pretty sure they are talking about the swinging platform stage, not the positional. There was a lot of talk about it at dinner Sunday night.
The stage description was 3 positions using "Any" gear as props. So yes those Yoga poses were allowed and approved prior to even shooting the stages. Steadying the prop was also OK once in position prior to being on the clock again the RO was asked this prior to the event starting. the 3 R.O.s all ok'ed every thing they did and watched every move they made for Elbows touching the deck of legs touching the poles.
George, They were steadying the prop while on the clock, which was exactly against the rules. As the RO would get on the glass to look for hits, the guys standing behind the shooter would slip forward and steady the platform after each hit by pressing their leg against the prop or the shooters foot that extended off the platform. This is not fair, and it's cheating. So now that you identified yourself and team, why would you condon and participate in this, as the team leader? You are probably the finest gunsmith on the planet, I don't get why you would soil your reputation with this activity.
The first step to remedy this and stop the thrashing of your reputation, is to acknowledge this happened and swear to clean up the behavior of your team.
The PRS needs to develop a code of ethics and sanctions for thos individuals that behave in this manner.
George, They were steadying the prop while on the clock, which was exactly against the rules. As the RO would get on the glass to look for hits, the guys standing behind the shooter would slip forward and steady the platform after each hit by pressing their leg against the prop or the shooters foot that extended off the platform. This is not fair, and it's cheating. So now that you identified yourself and team, why would you condon and participate in this, as the team leader? You are probably the finest gunsmith on the planet, I don't get why you would soil your reputation with this activity.
The first step to remedy this and stop the thrashing of your reputation, is to acknowledge this happened and swear to clean up the behavior of your team.
The PRS needs to develop a code of ethics and sanctions for thos individuals that behave in this manner.
I'll always push the rules of a match once "anything" is allowed mostly because I don't believe it should be that way. That said, If anyone thought anything I did was not within the rules I would have gladly taken a zero or match DQ if the RO's agreed. The RO's have final say and agreed to everything before I shot each stage. I shoot this sport for the love of it and give away the prize items to new shooters in my local club. The only thing I pulled off the table was a LHR entry cert to give away to a new shooter in the local community.
I spend a lot of time with each shooter on GAP and none of them would cheat, I think you'll find 100's of shooters to support this point of view. Next time walk over and say something if you have a issue. I'm sure it would be resolved on the spot not on internet.
As for the remark above no one ever touched the platform when someone was on the clock. Only four people on the squad were from GAP. The others which were standing right next to us the whole match did not see this. Maybe it was your perspective and not reality.
I spend a lot of time with each shooter on GAP and none of them would cheat, I think you'll find 100's of shooters to support this point of view. Next time walk over and say something if you have a issue. I'm sure it would be resolved on the spot not on internet.
As for the remark above no one ever touched the platform when someone was on the clock. Only four people on the squad were from GAP. The others which were standing right next to us the whole match did not see this. Maybe it was your perspective and not reality.
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