**2014 JC Steel Target Challenge, Sponsored by Seekins Precision

#151
Had a lot of fun at the match. I really liked the shoot house, would definitely like to see more stages like that. Improvised positions are awesome! Anyway, thanks for the match Jake, I can see you put a lot of effort into it.

Also, is there anywhere where I can find the scores for day one? I want to see how I placed, ill look back in the comments to see if I missed it.

Gilberto Padilla
 
#152
"Im not that upset or supprized that you thought what you saw was cheating but let me give you a piece of advice, If you see it, its your responsibility to jump in at the moment it happens and get a ruling on it not after the fact. And posting your opinions on the Internet when you were not involved in the conversations is even a worse idea."

George[/QUOTE]


George, we did say something the instant we saw the activity. The RO noted the violation and communicated with the Match Director. Nothing was done....
 
#153


George, we did say something the instant we saw the activity. The RO noted the violation and communicated with the Match Director. Nothing was done....
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If thats the case then it was not a team GAP shooter on the clock it was a new shooter Josh Briner . I was not there so I wont comment further, Ryan can comment if he wants as he was the guy you talked to, myself and the rest of the team were already at the next stage. And yes I do condemn cheating, not a little alot. I don't believe Ryan would cheat and I believe him when he told me he was only waiting on the shooter to finish so he could retrieve his rest and bags that the shooter borrowed. It didn't affect the scores of any of my shooters. ?????

I have nothing else to say on this!
 
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#154
Wow what a match!! Nothing like scraping off ice before shooting a stage!! We definitely put our gear to the test, and I was pleased to see no gear malfunctions due to the inclement weather.

I had a blast. Despite the winds the first day, and the ice rain the second, I shot over 200 rounds for the first time at a match ever. The stages were really well thought out, with plenty of really challenging stages to keep you honest. The log stage also kicked my butt, but it was fun shooting it nonetheless. Its weird how things went relatively smoothly, for 120 shooters, the first day and it turned into such a clusterF the second day (weather will do that). My group had to finish one stage from sat, sunday morning and continued from there. On Sunday we did not hit any backups to speak of and only had 2 stages to go when cease fire was called (I barely even got the opportunity to hear Willys46 complain about no time to make coffee). That's pretty good considering the weather conditions, but I def see how taking out 2 stages caused a large holdup. Those shooters who were supposed to shoot those stages would have been better served to be spread out throughout the course. Heck, it probably would have been better in hindsight to just leave those 2 stages in and see where we ended up. Would have kept wait times low with more peeps shooting at the same time.

The bottom line is, for a major match, people make travel/work plans around a predetermined schedule. If things go astray, the match director has to make decisions to keep things on schedule. Without the weather, I believe we could have shot everything in the allotted time. To be honest, we didn't have the option to wait out the weather and complete shooting, as it was getting too near the finish time and we still had to EAT. The only truly fair decision was to call it and use day 1 scores, which was made, and it was the right decision. Heck, I cleaned 2 stages the second day also and was looking to move up the rankings, but it wasn't meant to be. Still glad I got to shoot what I did sunday.

If I had any recommendations, it would be the starting of each day. There are logistical problems transporting 120 shooters to an offsite location, esp when the road up to the top was through a stage (meaning everyone has to be up before shooting can commence.) It is what it is. I was very glad to be served breakfast both days, but transportation was tricky. Maybe let people drive up the mountain?? I don't know.

How bout the food??? amazing that we got to go to a match where not only breakfast was served, but dinner also. BOTH DAYS!! that by itself would be reason to come back, let alone the awesome shooting venue.

Anyways, would like to thank the following sponsers that I personally saw there or on the prize table. Im sure ill miss someone so sorry if I do:

-Manners Stocks (I picked up a stock cert on the table. There were 2 certs for stocks so again, thanks for supporting the sport.)
-SilencerCo (free suppressor cert - they had a demo shooting their stuff in 300 blk out. very impressive and their new Harvester is on my short list of suppressors - geared towards the hunter. You will not believe how light this thing is until you hold it...ha that's what she said)
-Seekins (Glen was there shooting. as well as donating stuff for the prize table, he made the breakfast/dinners possible with a generous donation. BIG THANKS)
-XLR Stocks (met Kyle and he had 4 stocks on the table. He has some nice stuff and his new stock looks to be a winner. check it out.
-Rock Solid stocks - I saw a couple of their certs on the table.
-KRG Stocks - one stock on the prize table
-McMillion stocks
-Kahles Optics (they had a scope on the table, best prize to be won, and I finally learned how to pronounce the name...even though I just forgot lol.)
-Nightforce (another F1. these guys ALWAYS support the shooting industry.)
-GA Precision - 2 certs for free barrel and smith work to screw it on and also a couple more certs for barrels. Another sponsor that ALWAYS has stuff for a prize table.
-Benchmark barrels (mad props to these guys. they not only donated a couple barrels, but put a barreled action on the table that was randomly given to a RO. Very cool of this company to do this. I know they are button rifled, but seriously look em up. You will not be disappointed.
-Eberlestock (sp) had several packs on the table.
-Southwest Ammo - bullet certs..
ETA
-Mile High Shooting - FOUR magneto chrono thingys. very generous.

Remember to thank these guys. They need to know their "free shit" isn't going unappreciated and when you need something, they are a company worth looking up AND they usually give discount to hide members. I have no interest in the above companies other than being grateful that they make a lights out prize table possible. There were also dozens of other smaller stuff provided by gear companies that I forgot the names of. Ha like I said these are the names that pop to mind.

The line above the bottom line (lol) is I had a great time. I didn't hear any complaints that weren't a direct result of shitty weather. I did not see or hear anything that could be even thought to be cheating in any way, but I did not watch every person/squad. I guess lets hope it was a misunderstanding. To say you might not come back cause of how others may or may not have acted is your choice, the only person you can control is yourself. That being said, don't misconstrue the awesome match Mr Jake put on with how some competitors did or did not act (again I havnt heard anything until reading this thread). But there is a reason there was 50 people on the wait list - this match rocked it

Regards,
Dorgan
 
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#155
A10XRIFLE said:
If you would have only walked over and listened you would have not decided to come on a public forum and accuse anyone of cheating. Im assuming now that your talking about Ryan And Charles Every position those 2 guys shot was ok'd by the R.O. prior to them shooting them. I personally thought it was bullshit that it was allowed and was even arguing with the RO myself as to the Legality of the positions.

The stage description was 3 positions using "Any" gear as props. So yes those Yoga poses were allowed and approved prior to even shooting the stages. Steadying the prop was also OK once in position prior to being on the clock again the RO was asked this prior to the event starting. the 3 R.O.s all ok'ed every thing they did and watched every move they made for Elbows touching the deck of legs touching the poles.

One of your guys complained to Jake and he walked over immediately to me and asked how the stage was shot. I argued that the stage should have had stage equipment and everyone should have had to shoot it the same but Jakes exact words were that he designed the stage to be highly gameable and that's what the stage was about and it was meant to be gamed.

Ive shot LR Tac matches since the start I dont think anyone has shot them longer than me and I have never been accused of cheating and believe me I have kicked plenty for doing so as an RO many can attest to that.

Im not that upset or supprized that you thought what you saw was cheating but let me give you a piece of advice, If you see it, its your responsibility to jump in at the moment it happens and get a ruling on it not after the fact. And posting your opinions on the Internet when you were not involved in the conversations is even a worse idea.

There were 7 guys in our squad that were not on our team that saw and heard every stage and conversation. 2 of them PM'ed me about this thread saying how it was BS. I barley know these guys and they didnt think there was any cheating going on.

Im quite Sure Jake will post and settle the air out on this but these 2 guys are standup guys and yes they will Game the fuck out of a stage if its allowed but they are not cheaters.



George
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I appreciate your feedback George but this had nothing to do with shooter body position. It had everything to do with You and and another shooter positioning yourself behind the suspended platform and touching the boot of the shooter with your leg to prevent rifle recoil from swinging the platform.

You stated that someone should have said something. We did. The 1st time it happened it was you steadying a 2nd shooter. The second time it happened it was that 2nd shooter with a leg was touching the boot of a 3rd shooter and the RO witnessed the ordeal when my partner approached and called him out on it. If that is all too confusing, I can do my best to drum up some names, I am sure there are profiles on the PRS website.

Let ME give YOU a piece of advice, I dont need to be in your squad and hear converstations to see you cheat. The RO insepcted where everyone was standing to ensure no one or nothing was touching the platform or the shooter on the platform, and when he focused on the scoring and calling impacts, you slowely worked your leg up to touch the 2nd shooter's boot in a deliberate manner. Thats cheating. The 2nd shooter did it to a follow on shooter after you did...I saw it, my partner saw it, the RO saw it. For that matter it was brought to the MD's attention, what he chose to do with that information was his call. Posting this on a public forum so the rest of the SH world knows how unprofessional you and a couple other team members conducted yourself, that was my call.

As for you 2 PM's, I cant attest to what others in your squad witnessed, or didnt, and quite frankly the RO didnt even see it until we (my partner and I) pointed it out.
 
#156
I'm new to this game. Had a great time shooting this match but I personally watched George hold pressure against the foot of the guy who finished first to steady the platform stage. I don't know the shooters name but he was anounced as the match winner. I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion but it seams that team isn't taking responsibility and issuing apologies to the other participants. Those rifles are great but I personally won't be buying one until they admit what they did and apologize for it.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
 
#157
DieselWSM said:
I appreciate your feedback George but this had nothing to do with shooter body position. It had everything to do with You and and another shooter positioning yourself behind the suspended platform and touching the boot of the shooter with your leg to prevent rifle recoil from swinging the platform.

You stated that someone should have said something. We did. The 1st time it happened it was you steadying a 2nd shooter. The second time it happened it was that 2nd shooter with a leg was touching the boot of a 3rd shooter and the RO witnessed the ordeal when my partner approached and called him out on it. If that is all too confusing, I can do my best to drum up some names, I am sure there are profiles on the PRS website.

Let ME give YOU a piece of advice, I dont need to be in your squad and hear converstations to see you cheat. The RO insepcted where everyone was standing to ensure no one or nothing was touching the platform or the shooter on the platform, and when he focused on the scoring and calling impacts, you slowely worked your leg up to touch the 2nd shooter's boot in a deliberate manner. Thats cheating. The 2nd shooter did it to a follow on shooter after you did...I saw it, my partner saw it, the RO saw it. For that matter it was brought to the MD's attention, what he chose to do with that information was his call. Posting this on a public forum so the rest of the SH world knows how unprofessional you and a couple team members conducted yourself, that was my call.

As for you 2 PM's, I cant attest to what others in your squad witnessed, or didnt, and quite frankly the RO didnt even see it until we (my partner and I) pointed it out.
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Your full of shit!!! Thats easy I never touched a shooter or Steadied any platform while anyone was on the clock, nobody said a word to me or the RO. I had my hand on the pole as my ACL has a tear from the Bushnell Brawl and I was in serious pain I was the shooter right before Ryan if you were there you would know why I was holding onto the pole. I was behind ryan yelling at him during transition to make sure not to touch the pole this can be confirmed as the R.O. was not on glass he was standing inches from me and also was watching Ryans legs. This Is complete BS

Your an Asshole and a Bad sport!!!! its the only excuse for this.
 
#158
mailman said:
I'm new to this game. Had a great time shooting this match but I personally watched George hold pressure against the foot of the guy who finished first to steady the platform stage. I don't know the shooters name but he was anounced as the match winner. I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion but it seams that team isn't taking responsibility and issuing apologies to the other participants. Those rifles are great but I personally won't be buying one until they admit what they did and apologize for it.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
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Now its really getting Deep, The Match Winner was not on our Squad Are you sure it was even our squad? Do you now What I look Like. I can t wait till Dustin Morris Sees this !!!!
 
#159
mailman said:
I'm new to this game. Had a great time shooting this match but I personally watched George hold pressure against the foot of the guy who finished first to steady the platform stage. I don't know the shooters name but he was anounced as the match winner. I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion but it seams that team isn't taking responsibility and issuing apologies to the other participants. Those rifles are great but I personally won't be buying one until they admit what they did and apologize for it.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
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I don't think Dustin Morris was the shooter in question. In fact, I don't think we was in that squad as he shot the match with the Silencerco guys. You might be thinking of another shooter who was in the squad and did finish in the top 10.
 
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#160
I dont know what happened as far as gaming/activities on some of the stages, but I am really disappointed that it has resulted in a "calling out-accusation of cheating" on a public forum. I would have hoped that it could have been discussed on site and resolved in a satisfactory matter at the shoot, before airing it in a public forum. Perhaps this was attempted, and resolution was not possible. I wasn't at those stages

I shot poorly, and finished down there quite a ways, but can appreciate various shooter's opinions on what should have been done in regards to stages that weren't finished Saturday, and scores on Sunday.

I can't imagine all the work that it takes to put a shoot like this together...probably takes a whole year to put it together and line up sponsors RO's and volunteers.

Perhaps some of our suggestions/thoughts on how to improve the shoot might be e-mailed to Jake. I believe he would be receptive to ideas on how to make things run smoother and allow competitors to finish all the stages both days.

I think this is a great shoot! Let's work collectively to make it even better, not tear it apart in the forum! THANKS!
 
#162
Sorry to hear of the accusations happening here. On a lighter note I posted my review/article of the match. It was a great match despite the weather. I am sure much was learned this year only to make next year even better. "Put a bird on it!" (This is a meme going around.) Birds making everything better! Look forward to next year in a warmer month!
2014 JC Steel Challenge ? Brrrrrrrrr | 30 Cal Gal | Rifles & Competitions

Anette
 
#163
Sorry if I was mistaken on him being the match winner. A lot of the shooters look similar. I do know who you are George. The shooter who you held pressure against his foot with your leg was the shorter guy with the dark goatee or trimmed beard. I believe the name on his back was Kerr, if that wasn't the shooter you helped steady it was the guy in your squad who looked like him.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
 
#164
All : Maybe it's time to deescalate. I understand how in the heat of competition, we may try and get any edge possible. I thought the positions I saw were creative and outstanding. Because of the Charitable cause of this event and the outstanding people that volunteered to help, maybe we should move on. Rather than demean and trash each others character, we should acknowledge that these things can happen in the heat of competition. The better outcome would have been for the individuals caught, to have lost the points from that stage.

I suspect the PRS has a Code of Ethics. Maybe we can agree to follow that code and put this episode behind us.
 
#165
A10XRIFLE said:
Your full of shit!!! Thats easy I never touched a shooter or Steadied any platform while anyone was on the clock, nobody said a word to me or the RO. I had my hand on the pole as my ACL has a tear from the Bushnell Brawl and I was in serious pain I was the shooter right before Ryan if you were there you would know why I was holding onto the pole. I was behind ryan yelling at him during transition to make sure not to touch the pole this can be confirmed as the R.O. was not on glass he was standing inches from me and also was watching Ryans legs. This Is complete BS

Your an Asshole and a Bad sport!!!! its the only excuse for this.
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My integrity isnt in question George, and nor has it ever been. But Your's is. I know what I saw, what my partner saw, and what the RO saw (which oh by the way seems to be what Mailman saw, and others according to the PM's I am getting). The issue was addressed with the MD and nothing materialized from that, hence my reason for posting here. SH and fellow shooters need to know how unprofessionally you and yours acted. The issue has been addressed with the PRS and will let them handle it from here.

Happy Shooting.
 
#166
Sum's it up... Great shoot, thank you for ALL of the Sponsors and your time, donations, support etc. etc.
 

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#167
Wow this thread blew up!!

Here is my understanding as the match director of the event.

I heard 4 or 5 different stories about a couple people not playing be the rules of a couple different stages.

For the positional stages, everything goes, there were not any rules on that stage, and creativity was rewarded. Day one of that stage was absolutely no equipment or support, day 2, anything goes on that stage. I tired to convey that on the match booklet. I also talked with the RO's and they were to give me names and scores of those not following the rules.

I also heard from a few individuals about stage 2 on day two. Moving platform.

I gave the RO's the authority to make the rules on that stage. And their only demand from me was to be consistent throughout that day.

I heard from shooters, that said they saw people not shooting by the rules. This is not OK with me and was not good to hear.
I also heard from other shooters that said they also witnessed these particular shooters shooting, said they were just gaming and trying to take advantage of what the stage offered. And they said the RO had told them those particular actions we just fine.

So I heard 4 or 5 different sides to a story, one of them said they had cheating on a stage. The others did not think there was any blatant cheating going on.

What I did is confirm with the RO's what was going on, they said that some people started accusing other shooters of not doing thing correctly. They RO's on the stage said they did not see anything to worry about, and although there was some gaming going on, they did not think anyone was cheating.

If anyone is caught cheating, or doing anything out of line, we have no problem DQ'ing someone from a stage, and the second offense would be a DQ from the entire match.

If we were to dig into it further, anyone caught going outside the rules of a stage would have gotten a 0 for that stage. If they did it again we would tell them to leave.

Maybe because I am the match director, but I did not see one single thing over the course of the weekend that concerned me. Everyone was playing by the rules as far as I could see. Only other thing I can do is ask the RO's what they saw. If I hear from the RO's everything was good, I have to think it was.

If a shooter, no matter who you are, friend, sponsor, etc etc, come and say something to me, I have to take it with a grain of salt and then go investigate. I tried to do that best I could with what was going on.


We did not give anyone a DQ for a stage on day 2 because we did not count day 2 scores. So my investigation stopped there as it would have been a stage DQ, and those scores did not count anyway.

But there was a couple RO's that said there were shooters that came through the stage and were gaming the stage hard core. They told me about those particular shooters, and asked me what I thought. If anything was out of line based on what the RO told me, I would have DQ'ed them from that stage and went to tell those shooters that.

I wanted to make the best decision for the match, and since we canceled the days scores and moved forward with only Saturdays scores I dropped it.

I have heard from a few people regarding this topic, and I will continue to find out more information.

I saw nothing, and only heard third party. I heard a few different stories or witnessed, So I can only do what I think is right. I don't like cheating and lying, nothing pisses me off more. But I also don't want to accuse someone of cheating when I honestly just don't know it was because I heard some many different stories.

Other than that particular instance, I have heard from the RO's everything went well and they had no issues.

We are going to run this a month or so later next year. If we have it, its a lot of work and is a PITA!! Actually, this is the stuff that is really stressful

If anyone needs to vent, I am free via PM, or call me. Either way I would love to talk.

Thanks

Jake Vibbert
JC Steel Targets
 
#168
The cheating that has been made public here had nothing to do with shooting positions or gear used. I witnessed the RO check to make sure the shooter did not have body contact with the platform beyond what was allowed. You guys "gamed" the positions very well. However, I was extremely disappointed to witness George step close to the platform while one of his shooters was in the prone and lean in and place his shin against the shooters boot sole. That was cheating, cut and dry!!!
 
#169
You really think that a group of novice ROs (not knocking the ROs, just realistically stating the fact that many of them are pretty new to the sport) is going to call out a very well known figure in the LR community and hand them a DQ? I've done enough ROing in other shooting sports to see experienced shooters bully green ROs for all sorts of things and I know it's tough for such an RO to stand their ground for numerous reasons. Further, I'm curious what you mean by "We did not give anyone a DQ for a stage on day 2 because we did not count day 2 scores." Are you saying they would have been DQ'd had the scores been counted? If that's the case, why weren't they DQ'd on the spot since at that point it wasn't known that those scores wouldn't count? My squad and I got to the platform stage just after the incidents in question, and people who were there and saw them were MAD, this certainly wasn't something that people decided to claim they saw well after the fact.

As far as gaming, I don't think anyone has trouble understanding the difference between gaming a stage and actually witnessing someone using their leg to deliberately steady the shooter on the platform.
 
#170
George, I apologize for saying it was the match winner. I forgot the guy in the blue shirt won the match and chose the scope. I think Ryan won one of the glass trophies and I thought it was for overall winner. Whether you admit and apologize or not is up to you. I'm done with this conversation. Thanks for the match Jake keep up the good work.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
 
#171
Nine, that statement was meaning we did not look into it further to hand anyone a DQ on a stage. And we had a few different stories at that point from shooters and RO's. So we dropped it all and moved forward with day one scores because of the weather.
 
#175
jcvibby said:
As match director all the RO's have to report to me. The RO on the floating platform stage reported/saw nothing of concern.
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Jake, unfortunate that statement directly contradicts what the stage RO said to countless shooters. The RO was the one who mentioned it to my squad that he noted the 4 shooters he witnessed bracing each other and would be informing you about it.... Something isn't adding up here.
 
#176
I'm Joe Mazzola, shooter #67, squaded with George and the shooters in question. I have no sponsors, no affiliation with GAP other than I shoot a GAP rifle. I was standing there the entire time watching everyone shoot because I was already prepped. At no time did I see anyone approach that platform during any shooting. It would have been very obvious if someone did. I specifically remember one RO on glass, the other looking around and marking impacts on the score sheet directly to the right and behind the platform. If anyone would have approached a shooter in the prone position on the platform it would have been an automatic red flag to everyone there. Everyone was at least 2 feet behind the shooter. If the accuser had something to say, should have said it on the spot. Call it out. Maybe you were seeing something different from your angle. If I remember correctly, the squad behind us was in the 7 or 8 o'clock position, not exactly the best view.
 
#178
Go faster23, George already admitted he was leaning on the post for his acl so you saying no one was near the platform doesn't hold up. We were at the nine o'clock and saw it clearly. Your squad was in the four to six o'clock and may not have been able to see it but we did.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
 
#179
A10XRIFLE said:
I had my hand on the pole ...
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Gofaster23 said:
I'm Joe Mazzola, shooter #67, squaded with George and the shooters in question. I have no sponsors, no affiliation with GAP other than I shoot a GAP rifle. I was standing there the entire time watching everyone shoot because I was already prepped. At no time did I see anyone approach that platform during any shooting. It would have been very obvious if someone did. I specifically remember one RO on glass, the other looking around and marking impacts on the score sheet directly to the right and behind the platform. If anyone would have approached a shooter in the prone position on the platform it would have been an automatic red flag to everyone there. Everyone was at least 2 feet behind the shooter. If the accuser had something to say, should have said it on the spot. Call it out. Maybe you were seeing something different from your angle. If I remember correctly, the squad behind us was in the 7 or 8 o'clock position, not exactly the best view.
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More than a few people have said they DID call it out at the time. Also, you say you never saw anyone approach the platform but George posted above and said he was near the platform. I don't know how you were watching so closely and never saw anyone approach the platform yet George was standing there with his hand on the pole.
 
#180
I thought it was a great match. Well done to Jake and the RO's for creating and running a very fun match. I totally get that the MD had no choice but to call the match due to weather. I would be sorry to see the match moved back a few weeks. I like the fact that competitors are required to perform in all conditions and early March is an unpredictable weather month. It's a great test of yourself, gear and marksmanship. As for cutting the last days scores from the totals it was the correct thing to do given that not all the stages on day2 were of the same level of difficulty. Stage hopping should be cause for DQ. I've seen it happen in a number of matches and it always screws up the tempo of the match and causes a lot of frustration and ill temper.

These are minor concerns overall. I loved the match, had a great time. Kudos to Jake and RO's.
 
#181
jcvibby said:
Only RO's I heard from was on the positional stage fly, heard nothing else the rest of the night
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Unfortunate Jake. I told you myself and at which stage it occured, immediately following thr RO talking to you at the positional stage. Understandably you were extremely busy but definitely something I would imagine worth following up on...or maybe even a radio call to the stage RO. Too bad the match is over and probably no way possible to contact the RO to follow up, clarify, and investigate.

Proverbs 27:17 indeed.
 
#182
By approach the platform I mean deliberately walk up and casually apply pressure to a shooter's foot to help steady them. It would have been obvious. You're right in the aspect that for a short period of time George was using a post a support due to his injury, but most of the time everyone was behind the shooter watching their technique. I don't see how this is going anywhere. This problem you have is with the RO's and MD, which the MD has said his peace. I was standing there the entire time, have no reason to lie or back anyone up, and I didn't see a thing.
 
#183
Gofaster23 said:
By approach the platform I mean deliberately walk up and casually apply pressure to a shooter's foot to help steady them. It would have been obvious. You're right in the aspect that for a short period of time George was using a post a support due to his injury, but most of the time everyone was behind the shooter watching their technique. I don't see how this is going anywhere. This problem you have is with the RO's and MD, which the MD has said his peace. I was standing there the entire time, have no reason to lie or back anyone up, and I didn't see a thing.
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I looked dead in the offenders eye and said these words: "That's Bull Shit" The RO immediately heard me and saw the infraction. I do wish they would admit it, apologize and move on... The company sponsor is too good of a company and I am sure, even taking out the cheating, the shooters probably would retain their standing. Please cease calling good people liars, they are not lying just ask the RO, he will undoubtedly remember that encounter.
 
#184
Clint, I know you personally, if you say the sky is black I believe it is so. I trust your opinion brother,
That being said,

There were three RO'S on that stage and I did not hear from any of them concerning the issue. I even went over and asked how everything was going. I talked with people not affiliated with any team or person to get their point of view. They mentioned gaming stages but said nothing about deliberate cheating. So I had two guys telling me something went one way and a bunch more saying it's not so. I was caught in the middle.

The MD is in a tough spot here. Very tough. The investigation was continuing to go on, then we shut it all down because of the fog and no one could see the targets.

We dropped day two stages and scores. Therefore I felt we did not need to further investigate an issue just to DQ a shooter from the stage. It did not count anyway.

I was caught in a he said she said battle. And thought it would be best to drop those stages.

Sorry for all the trouble guys!
 
#186
With all do respect you are accusing someone of cheating. I'm not saying that you did not see what you think you saw, only that eyes can play tricks on you. Perhaps the RO did not do anything about it because he did not find that anyone was cheating. Perhaps he acknowledged your complaint and moved on.

As for the scores they would be the same as the stage in question was not included in the match.

All said and done no one is going to admit to something they did not do. George is a vet, an ex cop and a long time supporter of the rifle community. He's finished more matches than most and has nothing to prove to anyone. Before you attack a great man and a huge supporter of the community I only ask that you consider the possibility that nothing was done in the wrong.
 
#187
264Charlie said:
With all do respect you are accusing someone of cheating. I'm not saying that you did not see what you think you saw, only that eyes can play tricks on you. Perhaps the RO did not do anything about it because he did not find that anyone was cheating. Perhaps he acknowledged your complaint and moved on.

As for the scores they would be the same as the stage in question was not included in the match.

All said and done no one is going to admit to something they did not do. George is a vet, an ex cop and a long time supporter of the rifle community. He's finished more matches than most and has nothing to prove to anyone. Before you attack a great man and a huge supporter of the community I only ask that you consider the possibility that nothing was done in the wrong.
Click to expand...
Those must be some pretty big tricks if nobody was even near the shooter on the platform as has been claimed.
 
#188
264Charlie said:
With all do respect you are accusing someone of cheating. I'm not saying that you did not see what you think you saw, only that eyes can play tricks on you. Perhaps the RO did not do anything about it because he did not find that anyone was cheating. Perhaps he acknowledged your complaint and moved on.

As for the scores they would be the same as the stage in question was not included in the match.

All said and done no one is going to admit to something they did not do. George is a vet, an ex cop and a long time supporter of the rifle community. He's finished more matches than most and has nothing to prove to anyone. Before you attack a great man and a huge supporter of the community I only ask that you consider the possibility that nothing was done in the wrong.
Click to expand...

264 our squad is almost entirely, Army, Army Paratroopers, Marines, Recon Marines, Army Rangers does that give us any extra credibility?
 
#189
*Nine said:
We got bit by that too. Our first 4 stages went smoothly because we were ready to shoot and helped the ROs keep things moving. We didn't skip any stages or displace any other groups. Our 5th stage took an hour of standing around before we got to shoot, then what would have been our 6th stage never happened because after another hour of waiting in line the match was called off. A group (or groups) stampeding around the match skipping back and forth between stages certainly causes problems for everyone else.

As to the mention of cheating from above... I didn't witness it myself but my squad got to a stage where apparently it had just happened (and the squad in question had already moved on) and there was quite a lot of buzz about it. I'd be disappointed to learn that it had happened, and I'd be exceptionally disappointed to learn that the match administration was aware of it and nothing was done regardless of who the people in question are.
Click to expand...

First by your own words you were not even part of this, quick spreading things you did not see.


*Nine said:
Those must be some pretty big tricks if nobody was even near the shooter on the platform as has been claimed.
Click to expand...


Your eyes must be playing tricks on you again. No one stated "nobody was near the shooter on the platform" It was stated that no one was touching (approached) the platform after the clock stated. It was stated by the RO you could touch it before the shooter was on the clock.

mailman said:
I'm new to this game. Had a great time shooting this match but I personally watched George hold pressure against the foot of the guy who finished first to steady the platform stage. I don't know the shooters name but he was anounced as the match winner. I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion but it seams that team isn't taking responsibility and issuing apologies to the other participants. Those rifles are great but I personally won't be buying one until they admit what they did and apologize for it.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Another miss construed story.

Gewehrsmann said:
"anounced as the match winner. "

Mailman, I know you witnessed this, but he wasn't the match winner. Easy mistake, given the conditions...
Click to expand...

now the ringleader admits people might not have seen what they thought they saw

mailman said:
Sorry if I was mistaken on him being the match winner. A lot of the shooters look similar. I do know who you are George. The shooter who you held pressure against his foot with your leg was the shorter guy with the dark goatee or trimmed beard. I believe the name on his back was Kerr, if that wasn't the shooter you helped steady it was the guy in your squad who looked like him.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Confirmed by the whiteness. How did you see Kerr on his back with a jacket on? Oh yeah, Ryan had a face mask on the whole match too. Maybe this BS story was made up in PM's after the fact.

jcvibby said:
As match director all the RO's have to report to me. The RO on the floating platform stage reported/saw nothing of concern.
Click to expand...

The match directors sums it up... The RO's said nothing. I'm sure they listened to and noted your concern and went about having a good time knowing it was not true. You seem to forget that the RO watching time was on the back of the platform, not spotting, and would have seen this cheating you speak of.

All said and done the stage was thrown out and had ZERO effect on the match results. If you're looking for a reason to blame some out of town shooters for placing well in your match I'd try looking at your shooting vs. accusing people of cheating.


TROLL ON! I have better things to do.
 
Last edited:
#190
So people who showed up immediately after it and witnessed all the discussion and the fact that more than 1 person was saying they saw the exact same thing can't have an opinion or point out contradictions? All I'm "spreading" is the story that I heard from multiple people, which all were in agreement just minutes after the incident. The fact that a couple of novice ROs apparently didn't report misconduct by big name shooters after witnessing it clearly means it never happened (sarcasm.) Like I said before, I've seen novice ROs bullied around more than a few times by shooters since they don't always have the confidence to hand down a DQ or call someone out on something. Beside all that is the idea that it doesn't matter that people cheated since those stages were thrown out anyways. The whole thing reeks of misconduct and a whitewash.

Tell me, is it Team GAP SOP to get real close to a teammate during a stage to help remind them not to touch anything off limits?
 
#191
If you're questioning my integrity, Kerr was on his shirt when he went up to get his trophy. More than one person saw this cheating happen. If it was a mistake they wouldn't have pulled their foot back when the RO turned in their direction and then put it back up to stabalize the shooter when the RO looked back towards the targets. It wasn't a mistake, it was purposefully cheating. I corrected my self when I made a mistake and remembered the other guy who won was in the blue shirt and not Ryan. I took responsibility and even apologized for that statement. It's called taking responsibility for your actions, if that was done by the squad who is in question this would have been over a long time ago. Gaming the stage was fine (I learned a stable shooting position watching them use rucks and weebags for support ), cheating is not acceptable. If they feel it wasn't cheating then that's on their conscious not mine.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk
 
#192
jcvibby said:
Clint, I know you personally, if you say the sky is black I believe it is so. I trust your opinion brother,
That being said,

There were three RO'S on that stage and I did not hear from any of them concerning the issue. I even went over and asked how everything was going. I talked with people not affiliated with any team or person to get their point of view. They mentioned gaming stages but said nothing about deliberate cheating. So I had two guys telling me something went one way and a bunch more saying it's not so. I was caught in the middle.

Sorry for all the trouble guys!
Click to expand...

I've been reading this thread for most of the day and what a shit show.

1. Joe Mazzola is one of our club members and a friend of mine. If he said he didn't see anything, he didn't. He has 0 reason to lie.

2. George has shot 5 TBRCs and I have never had a problem with him as a competitor on the line. George has even help me fix stages that could be gamed during our events.

3. If positional shooting styles are not clearly spelled out in the rules then the competitor may be creative as he or she wants. And yes, I have seen what Ryan and Charlie can do behind their rifle in position. I saw this a few years back and even though I didn't agree with it, it was completely legal per the rules we have set for the stage. They found a creative way of solving the issue and banged out good scores. That is their job as competitors.

My job was to now design a stage with the parameters to force the shooter to use a desired skill set I would like to score them on. What did I do? Simple, COF called for NRA Style sitting, kneeling, and unsupported prone.

4. The match is done and over with. You have 3 ROs and several shooters saying they didn't see shit. You got two (from what I can count) claiming there was cheating. This isn't the freaking NFL and there isn't an instant replay booth. Jake made the call after talking to his ROs. END OF STORY.

You felt that you were wronged, send an email to Jake and send an email to Rich with the PRS. You want to accuse people of cheating and being unprofessional but then come on a public forum and act like this?

It is shit shows like this that make me and other MDs ask ourselves WHY? Why would we want to put our asses on the line to put on an event and take the risk of seeing one these type of threads.
 
#193
OK the last time I'm posting in this. The guy George was telling not the touch anything was Josh. A new shooter and not on Team GAP. As a new shooter we did not want him to fuck up and get DQ'd. We had two new guys on the squad. The other was very new and a great guy we were helping him the whole match as well. Shoot me...

Ever play telephone as a kid? If you did not whiteness something with your eyes you are only getting a version of the story. Listen to what you are saying man.

Three RO's were bullied to lie, People with no reason to cheat cheated, the MD is part of the conspiracy theory, all the other non GAP shooters (who wanted to win just as bad) are not telling the truth as well.

Does not add up in my book but believe what you want.
 
Last edited:
#194
jcvibby said:
Geb and Gofast thanks for the thoughts,

It was a tough decision for sure. I made the best choice based on what I thought was most fair.

Example, if you start the day with 70 points and in 3rd place, shoot 7 stages on day 2, averaging a fairly good 8 points per hit, and have 2 stages you were not able to shoot.
9 stages total on day two. 8 points on average,total points on day 2 would be 72.
Total for the match a very respectable 142 points. You worked hard for those points, and that would be a very good score, possibly getting a top 3 placement.

OR,
another guys in 60th place, enjoying the match but not shooting all that well on day one, because he's an average mid pack shooter, He starts day two with 45 points.
He shoots two stages on Sunday. For some reason I am not sure. For this analogy It doesn't matter.
For his two stages he has a score of 12 for the first stage and 14 for the second. Average of 13 points per stage on day two.

you guessed it, 13 points over 9 stages is 117 point, plus the 45 he started with, and he ends up smoking everyone with 162 points.

Is that fair for everyone? The first shooter is one of the best shooters in the nation, but we tell him because a couple other guys only shot two stages and had good scores on those stages he got bumped back, maybe out of the top three slots. It would have been a mess honestly.

I am not sure the top 3 shooters in the match would have even been in the top 5. It just was not worth the confusion and in my opinion would not have been fair to everyone.

But what are you thoughts? I am learning and I am all ears for good ideas that promote fairness.

Next year we are having in 2 months later anyway!!! Don't tell anyone though!! :D
Click to expand...


You do the best with what ya have, i know i was doing better the second day (but with a lot less wind i hope all did better), missed out on 3 stages, stopped on the 1320yd (could just make out the light) (but next 2 stages were backed up anyway)

One of the Findlay Cups was called because of snow, prize table was #'s drawn out of the hat.

Stuff happens that we can't control or make everybody happy , As the new school grading system - i should get points for showing up at stages and points for misses as we are all winners :)
 
#197
I think I shot worse on the 2nd day... I was shooting a 308 too so you would think I would have done much better with less wind. I guess we all just have bad days. Do you all remember that stage on the 1st day with the rack of small hanging steel targets? It was at around 300 yards. I believe I zeroed that stage because I couldn't see that of the 10 or 12 hangers only 3 still had targets on them. I was shooting at nothing the whole time lol. That's what I get for coming into the competition with a fixed 12x $300 scope.
 
#198
Cameron sent me the scores on my phone, I got 52nd overall! Not bad, I was hoping I would be somewhere in the middle.
My setup was:
Bartlein 24 inch 1:11.25 twist .308 barrel
Rifle chambered and blueprinted by Phoenix Custom Rifles
SWFA fixed 12x42 scope
Bell and Carlson M40 stock
Mountain shooter sling
Harris 6-9 bipod
175gr SMK, 43.5gr RX15, Lapua brass, Winchester primers

I was checking out Keith's Kahles 624i scope and man that thing is nice! Ill be looking hard at that one when I upgrade my scope.

What place did you guys come in and what was your setup? Im always interested in what others are using to give me ideas.
 
#199
jcvibby said:
There were three RO'S on that stage and I did not hear from any of them concerning the issue. I even went over and asked how everything was going. I talked with people not affiliated with any team or person to get their point of view. They mentioned gaming stages but said nothing about deliberate cheating. So I had two guys telling me something went one way and a bunch more saying it's not so. I was caught in the middle.

The MD is in a tough spot here. Very tough. The investigation was continuing to go on, then we shut it all down because of the fog and no one could see the targets.

We dropped day two stages and scores. Therefore I felt we did not need to further investigate an issue just to DQ a shooter from the stage. It did not count anyway.

I was caught in a he said she said battle. And thought it would be best to drop those stages.

Sorry for all the trouble guys!
Click to expand...

Hey Jake, this is Spencer Munn and I was one of the three ROs on stage 2, day 2. My position was on the spotter, so I wasn't watching the platform. The other RO who was watching the platform I believe was named Terry. He explained his concerns and complaints to me about the cheating, but he left immediately after we came down off the hill, so he was not able to talk to you. I did not personally witness anything because I was occupied staring through glass the entire time, so I decided to stay out of this argument. There was definitely some concerns among my fellow RO and the following squad. I think since the 2nd day was scratched, there is nothing to get all bent out of shape about here. I can't imagine trying to make a tough decision with so many different stories. Since the scores on that day didn't count, I think its best to move on and not worry at this point. If you do need any further input, I believe the RO with me was named Terry. I had a great time at the match and met a lot of new people. I plan on attending again next year one way or another. Keep up the good work.
 
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