If anyone want's to bitch at a match up here where chamber flags are used feel free to blame me
Rather than bitch about the flags...Can we get pink chamber flags...since my wife is a breast cancer survivor?
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If anyone want's to bitch at a match up here where chamber flags are used feel free to blame me
I was at the New Mexico shoot last year as well
We all used chamber flags and still have a ND. Your right it was only a few feet away from the RO'S face. Very unsafe.
Heres the way I look at it. Even though we are going to always use the chamber flags moving forward.
People will always make mistakes or do dumb things. It's happened since Adam and eve!
Just because a guy or gal has a chamber flag in does not mean they wont have an issue.
At a big match in Florida last year a guy shot himself in the leg.
At the new Mexico match there was an ND
At the Vegas match last year I witnessed another
At the Last Findlay cup l Witnessed 2 AD's.
the number of AD'S or ND's that a professional three gun and pistol shooter told me about its in the hundreds!!!!
I don't think we will ever stop them. What we can do is limit the amount of situations it can happen in to a very low number.
We are going to use the chamber flags just to make the uneasy guys a little happier. It honestly won't make it safer! In my opinion only. Three of the four matches above all required chamber flags.
The more I look at it I realize it's a dangerous sport because we are playing with firearms.
Did evil carnival ever crash?
If you deal with fire you will get burnt. Hopeful not too bad.
Really the only thing we can do is surround ourselves by other like minded shooters that we know are completely safe and have proper firearm safety protocol.
And we need to be very Vigilant of others around us at all times, especially when they have a deadly weapon they are handling. Am I right?
I know I am.
Someone above said it, if the open bolt is not good enough than those people should not have a firearm in their hands ever!!!!
But we are still moving forward with chamber flags!! LOL
I already ordered 200 of them. So they will be in everyone's shooter bags
this is news to me, and i was an RO last year at this match
Very good idea Jake. I was at Score Hi last year and they did exactly what you described. It worked out pretty well. We still had an ND though, a woman (sponsored shooter) was about to begin a stage and "made ready" her rifle and, chambered a round when she wasn't supposed to (before she was in position and before the timer started), pulled the trigger and almost took an RO's head off. Even experienced shooters make mistakes and taking every preventative action possible is a very good idea. I guess its the responsibility of those who aren't shooting, to watch where the shooter is pointing his/her muzzle. Stay alert, stay alive. That's a good one, I ought to write that down.
Stay alert, stay alive
PROPER training of RO's would go INFINITELY further than adding a flag...
Good discussion regardless, as safety is paramount.
DT
I was at the New Mexico shoot last year as well
We all used chamber flags and still have a ND. Your right it was only a few feet away from the RO'S face. Very unsafe.
Heres the way I look at it. Even though we are going to always use the chamber flags moving forward.
People will always make mistakes or do dumb things. It's happened since Adam and eve!
Just because a guy or gal has a chamber flag in does not mean they wont have an issue.
At a big match in Florida last year a guy shot himself in the leg.
At the new Mexico match there was an ND
At the Vegas match last year I witnessed another
At the Last Findlay cup l Witnessed 2 AD's.
the number of AD'S or ND's that a professional three gun and pistol shooter told me about its in the hundreds!!!!
I don't think we will ever stop them. What we can do is limit the amount of situations it can happen in to a very low number.
We are going to use the chamber flags just to make the uneasy guys a little happier. It honestly won't make it safer! In my opinion only. Three of the four matches above all required chamber flags.
The more I look at it I realize it's a dangerous sport because we are playing with firearms.
Did evil carnival ever crash?
If you deal with fire you will get burnt. Hopeful not too bad.
Really the only thing we can do is surround ourselves by other like minded shooters that we know are completely safe and have proper firearm safety protocol.
And we need to be very Vigilant of others around us at all times, especially when they have a deadly weapon they are handling. Am I right?
I know I am.
Someone above said it, if the open bolt is not good enough than those people should not have a firearm in their hands ever!!!!
But we are still moving forward with chamber flags!! LOL
I already ordered 200 of them. So they will be in everyone's shooter bags
The thing is, optimal human performance is notoriously difficult to define, and any safety system that depends on some notion of it is destined to eventually fail. Nothing that has the potential to mitigate an error of omission or commission can be dismissed so easily. Properly used, chamber flags provide significant safety benefits.Its very odd that I was within sight of 3 ND's in the past year (two of them I was less than 10' away) and still have no use for a range flag. Its an unnecessary precaution. ALL ND's can avoided by following some very simple rules and having some RO's being on it with a simple "Make safe and show clear."
PROPER training of RO's would go INFINITELY further than adding a flag...DT
D_TROS;3005987[B said:]That's not exactly what happened. I was actually standing behind the lady when this happened. She had finished the stage and was clearing her AR (NOT a bolt gun) as she was standing, with rifle downrange and nowhere near blowing an RO's head off, she hit trigger as she meant to hit mag release. Still not good just crazy way stories get told on the internet.
[/B]
I also was standing RIGHT behind the ND at the Vegas match this past Nov. Again a lady shooter that was trying to shoot off slippery shooting sticks and the rifle fell and she jerked the trigger sending one into the concrete floor.
AND last but not least, I was also near the ND at the JC match this past week. (semantics of AD vs ND fail me as I believe ALL misfirings are negligent and deserve an instant DQ)
The scariest thing I have seen though is a fellow shooter lining up at the next stage and opening his bolt to a live round..
Its very odd that I was within sight of 3 ND's in the past year (two of them I was less than 10' away) and still have no use for a range flag. Its an unnecessary precaution. ALL ND's can avoided by following some very simple rules and having some RO's being on it with a simple "Make safe and show clear."
The main reason this is bothering me is the failure to be responsible for your actions. If you cant follow some very basic safety rules, don't go shooting. Its pathetic that it would even be brought up if something happened and your excuse is "its a nuisance." Its not a nuisance. Its redundant in a system that already cover redundancies (4 basic rules as well as RO's as well as fellow competitors as well as bolt back as well as safety on as well as etc etc)
Will another redundant feature stop an AD??? if it does maybe its a good thing. I just feel if all the other areas of safety have been blatantly disregarded, a flag wont stop it either. PROPER training of RO's would go INFINITELY further than adding a flag...
I mean why stop there. Is removing a barrel that big of an inconvenience to save a life???
Good discussion regardless, as safety is paramount.
DT
This Right here is where it is at. I RO's the shoot house at this years jc steel challenge day 2, and I made every shooter(no matter who they thought they were) be bolt back and mag out before coming off the line. I also watched EVERY shooter extract either live round or the case from their chamber. We had two shooters that could not clear there chamber of a live round and were made to fire the weapon in a safe direction before leaving the stage and dealing with there weapon.
There were a lot of pissy people about this required level of safety....... I can see how it is easy for a new shooter or even some that may just avoid conflict would be easy to get "bullied" into not upholding this level of safety. I think we need to increase the level of RO safety. I believe that all of us experienced shooters need to step up and RO at least one match every year, and help train the newer folk.
Its very odd that I was within sight of 3 ND's in the past year (two of them I was less than 10' away) and still have no use for a range flag. Its an unnecessary precaution. ALL ND's can avoided by following some very simple rules and having some RO's being on it with a simple "Make safe and show clear."
The main reason this is bothering me is the failure to be responsible for your actions. If you cant follow some very basic safety rules, don't go shooting. Its pathetic that it would even be brought up if something happened and your excuse is "its a nuisance." Its not a nuisance. Its redundant in a system that already cover redundancies (4 basic rules as well as RO's as well as fellow competitors as well as bolt back as well as safety on as well as etc etc)
Will another redundant feature stop an AD??? if it does maybe its a good thing. I just feel if all the other areas of safety have been blatantly disregarded, a flag wont stop it either. PROPER training of RO's would go INFINITELY further than adding a flag...
I mean why stop there. Is removing a barrel that big of an inconvenience to save a life???
Good discussion regardless, as safety is paramount.
DT
Findley Cup 2013 was my first match ever. A fellow in our group got behind his rifle to set up and was maneuvering his rifle and adjusting for a shot when he had a AD. He sheepishly looked at the RO and said "my bad" and continued on with his setup and fired the stage. Not a word from the RO. I was a little surprised.......
Can't agree with this statement any more!! Lot of new RO's have no idea... And as myself and Kirk were talking with a group of shooters, a lot of ppl tell a new shooter to "go RO a match and you'll learn a lot!!". A very true statement but it turns their focus on what they can learn instead of being on safety. And a lot of them don't have the experience to be confident enough in their communication with shooters, which is a key part of being an RO in my opinion...
Mike
Mike
Hells Canyon Armory
For example, if you felt you had a hit when the RO called a miss, perhaps your round's energy at the target distance is so low the impact could not be spotted. Think about using a heavier bullet (with proper powder compensation of course). Make it easy for the RO to see hits.
We will be producing the I.R.I.S. electronic target system that we debuted at the JC Steel Challenge on stage 1 of day two at the 1002 and 1315 yard targets. That way the RO can focus on the shooter more instead of being focused on the scope
Here are some tips for shooter's in a tactical/long range rifle match (applicable at least to the Pacific Northwest matches I've been to):
1. Test your equipment before the match. Get zeros and ensure scope is tight, tracking, etc. Ensure rifle safeties work.
2. Read the match rules/guide ahead of the match start if available. Often these are posted on the Hide but in some bigger matches there may also be a printed guide that explains the stages. Any questions? -- ask the MD or RO's at the appropriate stage. At less formal matches there may be little to no advance info -- just show up at the stage and get the RO stage briefing at that time.
3. Do not skip stages or shoot them out of order. This may seem convenient to you in certain cases, but moves the inconvenience to the other shooters, RO's, and MD's. If you think the MD's match design is not very good and will cause unnecessary delays, take it up with the MD but don't try to "fix" it on the fly. Confirm with the RO's you are at the right stage, for example "We just came from stage 10, is this stage 11?". Sometimes stages can be hard to find, down in a valley, around a corner etc. so if you somehow miss a stage you'll need to backtrack and find it to stay in the proper shooting order.
4. When you arrive at a stage, catch your breathe, hydrate, and get prepared to shoot the stage per the course of fire. Any questions? -- ask the RO's at the appropriate stage. Have your magazines loaded with the proper round count for the stage, get your target ranges (if allowed), Kestral, locate and identify your targets. Mentally (or in your data book) plan target engagement and scope values/holdovers.Situational awareness:
[*=1]Identify terrain features around your target which will help you find the target again through a scope when in firing position
[*=1]Be aware of the shooting order and be prepared for your turn
[*=1]When you are on deck, gather your equipment and be prepared to move to the firing point at the RO's command
[*=1]Know where the RO's will be spotting from so you don't stand in front of their scopes
[*=1]Know where everyone else is on that firing point to avoid muzzle sweep (even with bolt back)
[*=1]When directed and when the previous shooter is clear of the line (finished with brass pickup, etc.) , move to the line and follow the RO's instructions to complete the stage.
[*=1]When complete with the stage, secure your firearm(s), grab your equipment and brass, and move off the line with muzzle awareness. Don't dally around the firing line discussing results -- that can be done back of the firing line just as well.
[*=1]If you are done shooting the stage, help other squad members get prepared if needed.
5. Use your data book to make stage notes. Include results, elevation and windage settings, ideas for improving your efficiency next time, equipment update notes, etc.
6. Stay with your squad but prepare to move to the next stage. Don't head out just because you are done. Arriving at the next stage before the rest of your squad gives you an unfair advantage and messes up the previous squad's organization. Stick with your squad, whether you like them personally or not. Arriving as an intact squad at the next stage also lets the RO's at that stage provide stage briefing and answer questions once, rather than individually for each shooter.
7. Always watch for safe practices at stages and between stages. Always model the best safety practices yourself.
8. Don't argue with the RO's -- especially during the timed part of your fire. You are simply reducing your potential score by doing so. If you have a disagreement, follow up with the RO as soon as possible after clearing the line. At the RO's discretion if they feel you have a good point, you may be allowed to re-shoot the stage (have extra ammo for this contingency). If you've made your point but the RO still disagrees, then the RO wins. Think about what YOU could do to avoid the situation in the future.
For example, if you felt you had a hit when the RO called a miss, perhaps your round's energy at the target distance is so low the impact could not be spotted. Think about using a heavier bullet (with proper powder compensation of course). Make it easy for the RO to see hits.
9. Have fun!
As far as these matches go it would be up to the MD since there's no standardized rule set and even in any given match there's usually no written rule to reference. If we look again to USPSA since they have a very comprehensive rule book and it's consistently applied you'd find that they make no distinction between a ND and an AD and the situation you describe would have been a match DQ.On the ND/AD thing:
My Daughter and I were at a very Popular Team match and was starting a high points barricade stage. She went first as planned an upon her first position, I could see she was taking way too long for the first Bang. She worked the bolt several times dumping live rounds to the ground. While keeping the rifle directed on the berm she stated "it is locked up, it wont do anything". The RO very professionally ask me if I wanted to help her, I stepped up and ask her if the Safety was on?. She attempted to work the safety back and forward on on the 2-3 time it moved the rifle went BANG. She impacted the berm surprisingly near the steel, and as to be expected, we DQed the stage. A quick operation between stages, on a Jewell, sent us to the last stage of the match where we cleaned a 1k yard stage.
Was this an AD or ND if there is no difference?
this shit harms this sport more than any percieved cheating you believe you saw
'Nuff said...
Seeds, I understand. Finding good ROs is a challenge, but it was mentioned by Mike @ Hells Canyon Armory, the best way to learn about the game is to RO. Safety is far and away the most important thing a RO can focus on, and yes it is a lot to absorb for someone that has not done it before. As a competitive shooter, I always sign up for at least one match a year to RO, it makes a stage go much smoother with a RO that knows the sport from both ends, but many shooters do not volunteer on a regular basis.
Kirk R
throwing out cheating claims on the internet after the fact
Agree that not enough shooters volunteer to RO, and I personally don't RO as much anymore (including line safety and pit boss at F/TR) because you get sick of the attitudes. Shooters need to remember that the RO's do NOT know you and or your level of training or how "operator" you are. Asking to check your chamber / gear / whatever is NOT a personal attack on you or your level of badassery. I know tensions get high mid timed stage for score, etc, but im guessing the guys that complain about the RO's never pull the duty. I wasn't at this match specifically, just speaking from being on both sides of the coin.
Oh they were thrown out right then and there. If you want to talk about the mans character, you have every right to do so as it sounds like you know him. But in terms of your opinion on what he did or didn't do at a match you weren't at, sorry doesn't really do much.