Rather than bitch about the flags...Can we get pink chamber flags...since my wife is a breast cancer survivor?
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**2014 JC Steel Target Challenge, Sponsored by Seekins Precision
- Thread starter JC Steel
- Start date
Rather than bitch about the flags...Can we get pink chamber flags...since my wife is a breast cancer survivor?
RE: Chamber Flags -- sounds like a fantastic business opportunity here. Design a chamber flag that doesn't melt, seals the chamber from grit/debris, is highly visible, holds the bolt back (maybe spring loaded for various bolt lengths and for easier insertion/extraction), and mechanically ensures there is not a fully loaded round, a partial case, or a bullet lodged in the bore 2-3 inches up from the chamber.
Make them from aluminum so it wouldn't scratch chambers and would be lightweight. Sell a "deluxe" model that not only did all the above, but also had a cleaning bush on the bore end so that the chamber/throat would get a light cleaning with each insertion.
Do this and you have a guaranteed market as all MD's would then require them for all shooters. Maybe offer them to MD's in bulk at slightly above cost and the MD's could include them in shooter bags at each match so that no one could say they forgot theirs.
My cut for having the great idea is only 10%.
Make them from aluminum so it wouldn't scratch chambers and would be lightweight. Sell a "deluxe" model that not only did all the above, but also had a cleaning bush on the bore end so that the chamber/throat would get a light cleaning with each insertion.
Do this and you have a guaranteed market as all MD's would then require them for all shooters. Maybe offer them to MD's in bulk at slightly above cost and the MD's could include them in shooter bags at each match so that no one could say they forgot theirs.
My cut for having the great idea is only 10%.
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Took longer than I expected to get pictures uploaded, but here they are!
JCSteelChallenge2014 Slideshow by StainlessSteelSamurai | Photobucket
JCSteelChallenge2014 Slideshow by StainlessSteelSamurai | Photobucket
Findley Cup 2013 was my first match ever. A fellow in our group got behind his rifle to set up and was maneuvering his rifle and adjusting for a shot when he had a AD. He sheepishly looked at the RO and said "my bad" and continued on with his setup and fired the stage. Not a word from the RO. I was a little surprised.......
That's not exactly what happened. I was actually standing behind the lady when this happened. She had finished the stage and was clearing her AR (NOT a bolt gun) as she was standing, with rifle downrange and nowhere near blowing an RO's head off, she hit trigger as she meant to hit mag release. Still not good just crazy way stories get told on the internet.
I also was standing RIGHT behind the ND at the Vegas match this past Nov. Again a lady shooter that was trying to shoot off slippery shooting sticks and the rifle fell and she jerked the trigger sending one into the concrete floor.
AND last but not least, I was also near the ND at the JC match this past week. (semantics of AD vs ND fail me as I believe ALL misfirings are negligent and deserve an instant DQ)
The scariest thing I have seen though is a fellow shooter lining up at the next stage and opening his bolt to a live round..
Its very odd that I was within sight of 3 ND's in the past year (two of them I was less than 10' away) and still have no use for a range flag. Its an unnecessary precaution. ALL ND's can avoided by following some very simple rules and having some RO's being on it with a simple "Make safe and show clear."
The main reason this is bothering me is the failure to be responsible for your actions. If you cant follow some very basic safety rules, don't go shooting. Its pathetic that it would even be brought up if something happened and your excuse is "its a nuisance." Its not a nuisance. Its redundant in a system that already cover redundancies (4 basic rules as well as RO's as well as fellow competitors as well as bolt back as well as safety on as well as etc etc)
Will another redundant feature stop an AD??? if it does maybe its a good thing. I just feel if all the other areas of safety have been blatantly disregarded, a flag wont stop it either. PROPER training of RO's would go INFINITELY further than adding a flag...
I mean why stop there. Is removing a barrel that big of an inconvenience to save a life???
Good discussion regardless, as safety is paramount.
DT
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Can't agree with this statement any more!! Lot of new RO's have no idea... And as myself and Kirk were talking with a group of shooters, a lot of ppl tell a new shooter to "go RO a match and you'll learn a lot!!". A very true statement but it turns their focus on what they can learn instead of being on safety. And a lot of them don't have the experience to be confident enough in their communication with shooters, which is a key part of being an RO in my opinion...
Mike
Mike
Hells Canyon Armory
Jake, Unfortunately these things happen. As a remedy, the chamber flags might help. There was a kid killed in a JROTC match a few years back, very sad. I have been at national level competitions, many future Olympians, and they use chamber flags. There is a match conducted up north where no flags are required but if you get caught by an RO sweeping someone, you're done. You would have to give the RO's some horsepower but based on what I witnessed, the RO's were very professional and fair.
Inspite of some of the issues, our team thinks the competition was awesome. The people we were associated with were great.
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The thing is, optimal human performance is notoriously difficult to define, and any safety system that depends on some notion of it is destined to eventually fail. Nothing that has the potential to mitigate an error of omission or commission can be dismissed so easily. Properly used, chamber flags provide significant safety benefits.
This Right here is where it is at. I RO's the shoot house at this years jc steel challenge day 2, and I made every shooter(no matter who they thought they were) be bolt back and mag out before coming off the line. I also watched EVERY shooter extract either live round or the case from their chamber. We had two shooters that could not clear there chamber of a live round and were made to fire the weapon in a safe direction before leaving the stage and dealing with there weapon.
There were a lot of pissy people about this required level of safety....... I can see how it is easy for a new shooter or even some that may just avoid conflict would be easy to get "bullied" into not upholding this level of safety. I think we need to increase the level of RO safety. I believe that all of us experienced shooters need to step up and RO at least one match every year, and help train the newer folk.
I agree that the RO thing is key. I definitely don't mean to slam the ROs we had (or the ones at other similar matches) but there's something to be said for having really experienced ROs. As I've mentioned ,and seemingly keep mentioning, I used to shoot a lot of USPSA and other than ADs during stages (which were immediate match DQs) I have never seen anyone DQ behind the line or in the parking lot. In USPSA you always leave the stage with a confirmed-empty gun. I've seen people walk off the line at matches where there's chamber flags with the flag in their hands and they insert it later when someone reminds them. That doesn't do anyone any good if the gun isn't already clear and they have a ND.
I don't see why we can't approach this like USPSA where at the end of the stage the RO says something like "unload and show clear" at which point the shooter empties the gun and allows the RO to look into the chamber. Then, the RO says "if clear, bolt forward and hammer down" at this point the shooter closes the bolt and dry fires in a safe direction. If the gun goes bang it's an instant and certain MATCH DQ. If people aren't comfortable with closed bolts then the shooter could be instructed to open his bolt. No gun would ever leave the firing line without being certain it's empty. In the end it's the shooter's responsibility to clear the gun and even with chamber flags it's not a sure thing for the reason I mentioned earlier. It's really easy for a novice RO to be rushing and trying to account for too many things at once and simply hand a chamber flag to a shooter and then turn away to really count on chamber flags alone being a real solution.
I don't see why we can't approach this like USPSA where at the end of the stage the RO says something like "unload and show clear" at which point the shooter empties the gun and allows the RO to look into the chamber. Then, the RO says "if clear, bolt forward and hammer down" at this point the shooter closes the bolt and dry fires in a safe direction. If the gun goes bang it's an instant and certain MATCH DQ. If people aren't comfortable with closed bolts then the shooter could be instructed to open his bolt. No gun would ever leave the firing line without being certain it's empty. In the end it's the shooter's responsibility to clear the gun and even with chamber flags it's not a sure thing for the reason I mentioned earlier. It's really easy for a novice RO to be rushing and trying to account for too many things at once and simply hand a chamber flag to a shooter and then turn away to really count on chamber flags alone being a real solution.
D_TROS;3005987[B said:
Thanks for clearing that up DT. The range officer was the one I heard say the barrel was close to his head, maybe he exaggerated
Still not fun though. Oh, and as it turns out the woman was not sponsored. I got her mixed up with someone else who was wearing one of those t-shirts with all the brand names on them. I agree about the ND vs AD thing. Nothing is an accident if you take responsibility for your own actions. Even if your rifle malfunctions and say, goes off when you go to lock the bolt down without intending to fire a round, its still an ND, because it is your responsibility to make sure your equipment is in working order.
I distinctly remember all the ROs inspect my chamber before coming off the line. I thought you all did a good job of that.
The ROs did a great job, and kudo's to jake for getting at least 2 per stage. Last year i ran my stage alone, and it was a tough time, getting guys ready, on deck, in the hole, on scope, timer going, watching hit (thank you shooters that recorded hits & misses for me), watching for any unsafe issues. the worst part was when someone asked for time/ i don't have that many eyes and you don't got much time. and one shooter gave me grief for not giving his brother a hit / on the post 1ft low off target (but i now the guy and was all good ribbing)
Jake, you ran a very very good match and will be there next year to heard gun toting cats.
SSSamurai, nice pictures
and one shooter gave me grief for not giving his brother a hit / on the post 1ft low off target (but i now the guy and was all good ribbing)Jake, you ran a very very good match and will be there next year to heard gun toting cats.
SSSamurai, nice pictures
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I agree with this completely. Other disciplines of shooting have a zero tolerance policy and the RO's know it. I have seen several very big name USPSA shooters DQ'd at major matches. It happens, and they do not get a free pass. RO training is one of the biggest keys to safe matches.
Bill
You know that brings some dim memory to me. I may have been that RO. Was that at the KYL rack or the car and hooker in the trailer stage(yes that was a real stage!) ?
I remember a shooter doing that. It was addressed as I told him at the line, keep your finger off till shooting and you are down one round. I also talked to him after the stage was over.
But beyond that, the rifle was pointed safely down range, he had been given the make ready signal. Was it bad? yes, dangerous? no.
This was quite some time ago but that's what I remember, was that what you were talking about? There are other specifics about it but I am doing all this typing on a stupid phone.
Is the general consensus here that, the shooter should be dq'ed and removed?
I have had more shooters than I can remember keep pulling the trigger after time has run out. How is that truly different? Do they get dq'ed?
Good job on the match Jake, sorry I dropped out on ya. We did take home 2 trophys and 3 blue ribbons from the pinewood derby!
Travis
Great point, Mike. A ND is just as much on the RO as it is on shooter. A RO needs to be a pitbull about bolts back, mags out, muzzle sweeps, etc. With all that is going through the shooters mind on the line, you need a RO to be in complete control, have the "not on my watch" attitude, and keep it fun at the same time.
Kirk R
Respectfully, if an "ND is just as much on the RO as the shooter", I won't be RO'ing much in the future and I'd be surprised if a large part of your volunteer corps didn't dry up.
From an outside perspective (I'm fairly new to the scene), it seems obvious that ROs are the weakest link in this game. Folks travel from around the country if not the globe, use firearms in time constrained high stress environments, playing for decent stakes and perhaps a fat league purse, but we rely on volunteers with a wide spectrum of skills and experience to hold it all together.
Perhaps it is time to bring a mature model of refereeing to the game. And chamber flags.
From an outside perspective (I'm fairly new to the scene), it seems obvious that ROs are the weakest link in this game. Folks travel from around the country if not the globe, use firearms in time constrained high stress environments, playing for decent stakes and perhaps a fat league purse, but we rely on volunteers with a wide spectrum of skills and experience to hold it all together.
Perhaps it is time to bring a mature model of refereeing to the game. And chamber flags.
Seeds, I understand. Finding good ROs is a challenge, but it was mentioned by Mike @ Hells Canyon Armory, the best way to learn about the game is to RO. Safety is far and away the most important thing a RO can focus on, and yes it is a lot to absorb for someone that has not done it before. As a competitive shooter, I always sign up for at least one match a year to RO, it makes a stage go much smoother with a RO that knows the sport from both ends, but many shooters do not volunteer on a regular basis.
Kirk R
Kirk R
Match Shooter's Guide
Here are some tips for shooter's in a tactical/long range rifle match (applicable at least to the Pacific Northwest matches I've been to):
1. Test your equipment before the match. Get zeros and ensure scope is tight, tracking, etc. Ensure rifle safeties work.
2. Read the match rules/guide ahead of the match start if available. Often these are posted on the Hide but in some bigger matches there may also be a printed guide that explains the stages. Any questions? -- ask the MD or RO's at the appropriate stage. At less formal matches there may be little to no advance info -- just show up at the stage and get the RO stage briefing at that time.
3. Do not skip stages or shoot them out of order. This may seem convenient to you in certain cases, but moves the inconvenience to the other shooters, RO's, and MD's. If you think the MD's match design is not very good and will cause unnecessary delays, take it up with the MD but don't try to "fix" it on the fly. Confirm with the RO's you are at the right stage, for example "We just came from stage 10, is this stage 11?". Sometimes stages can be hard to find, down in a valley, around a corner etc. so if you somehow miss a stage you'll need to backtrack and find it to stay in the proper shooting order.
4. When you arrive at a stage, catch your breathe, hydrate, and get prepared to shoot the stage per the course of fire. Any questions? -- ask the RO's at the appropriate stage. Have your magazines loaded with the proper round count for the stage, get your target ranges (if allowed), Kestral, locate and identify your targets. Mentally (or in your data book) plan target engagement and scope values/holdovers.
5. Use your data book to make stage notes. Include results, elevation and windage settings, ideas for improving your efficiency next time, equipment update notes, etc.
6. Stay with your squad but prepare to move to the next stage. Don't head out just because you are done. Arriving at the next stage before the rest of your squad gives you an unfair advantage and messes up the previous squad's organization. Stick with your squad, whether you like them personally or not. Arriving as an intact squad at the next stage also lets the RO's at that stage provide stage briefing and answer questions once, rather than individually for each shooter.
7. Always watch for safe practices at stages and between stages. Always model the best safety practices yourself.
8. Don't argue with the RO's -- especially during the timed part of your fire. You are simply reducing your potential score by doing so. If you have a disagreement, follow up with the RO as soon as possible after clearing the line. At the RO's discretion if they feel you have a good point, you may be allowed to re-shoot the stage (have extra ammo for this contingency). If you've made your point but the RO still disagrees, then the RO wins. Think about what YOU could do to avoid the situation in the future.
For example, if you felt you had a hit when the RO called a miss, perhaps your round's energy at the target distance is so low the impact could not be spotted. Think about using a heavier bullet (with proper powder compensation of course). Make it easy for the RO to see hits.
9. Have fun!
Here are some tips for shooter's in a tactical/long range rifle match (applicable at least to the Pacific Northwest matches I've been to):
1. Test your equipment before the match. Get zeros and ensure scope is tight, tracking, etc. Ensure rifle safeties work.
2. Read the match rules/guide ahead of the match start if available. Often these are posted on the Hide but in some bigger matches there may also be a printed guide that explains the stages. Any questions? -- ask the MD or RO's at the appropriate stage. At less formal matches there may be little to no advance info -- just show up at the stage and get the RO stage briefing at that time.
3. Do not skip stages or shoot them out of order. This may seem convenient to you in certain cases, but moves the inconvenience to the other shooters, RO's, and MD's. If you think the MD's match design is not very good and will cause unnecessary delays, take it up with the MD but don't try to "fix" it on the fly. Confirm with the RO's you are at the right stage, for example "We just came from stage 10, is this stage 11?". Sometimes stages can be hard to find, down in a valley, around a corner etc. so if you somehow miss a stage you'll need to backtrack and find it to stay in the proper shooting order.
4. When you arrive at a stage, catch your breathe, hydrate, and get prepared to shoot the stage per the course of fire. Any questions? -- ask the RO's at the appropriate stage. Have your magazines loaded with the proper round count for the stage, get your target ranges (if allowed), Kestral, locate and identify your targets. Mentally (or in your data book) plan target engagement and scope values/holdovers.
Situational awareness:
[*=1]Identify terrain features around your target which will help you find the target again through a scope when in firing position
[*=1]Be aware of the shooting order and be prepared for your turn
[*=1]When you are on deck, gather your equipment and be prepared to move to the firing point at the RO's command
[*=1]Know where the RO's will be spotting from so you don't stand in front of their scopes
[*=1]Know where everyone else is on that firing point to avoid muzzle sweep (even with bolt back)
[*=1]When directed and when the previous shooter is clear of the line (finished with brass pickup, etc.) , move to the line and follow the RO's instructions to complete the stage.
[*=1]When complete with the stage, secure your firearm(s), grab your equipment and brass, and move off the line with muzzle awareness. Don't dally around the firing line discussing results -- that can be done back of the firing line just as well.
[*=1]If you are done shooting the stage, help other squad members get prepared if needed.
5. Use your data book to make stage notes. Include results, elevation and windage settings, ideas for improving your efficiency next time, equipment update notes, etc.
6. Stay with your squad but prepare to move to the next stage. Don't head out just because you are done. Arriving at the next stage before the rest of your squad gives you an unfair advantage and messes up the previous squad's organization. Stick with your squad, whether you like them personally or not. Arriving as an intact squad at the next stage also lets the RO's at that stage provide stage briefing and answer questions once, rather than individually for each shooter.
7. Always watch for safe practices at stages and between stages. Always model the best safety practices yourself.
8. Don't argue with the RO's -- especially during the timed part of your fire. You are simply reducing your potential score by doing so. If you have a disagreement, follow up with the RO as soon as possible after clearing the line. At the RO's discretion if they feel you have a good point, you may be allowed to re-shoot the stage (have extra ammo for this contingency). If you've made your point but the RO still disagrees, then the RO wins. Think about what YOU could do to avoid the situation in the future.
For example, if you felt you had a hit when the RO called a miss, perhaps your round's energy at the target distance is so low the impact could not be spotted. Think about using a heavier bullet (with proper powder compensation of course). Make it easy for the RO to see hits.
9. Have fun!
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We will be producing the I.R.I.S. electronic target system that we debuted at the JC Steel Challenge on stage 1 of day two at the 1002 and 1315 yard targets. That way the RO can focus on the shooter more instead of being focused on the scope
We will be producing the I.R.I.S. electronic target system that we debuted at the JC Steel Challenge on stage 1 of day two at the 1002 and 1315 yard targets. That way the RO can focus on the shooter more instead of being focused on the scope
I was the first shooter on that stage that day and the I.R.I.S. worked awesome spotting my .308 shots at 1000+ yards that day. It was great to be able to have the ROs hit a button on a remote and have the target light go off and show us where we should be looking for the targets. Depending on the price of the system I think that the UNSC Practical Rifle Matches may have to invest in one or two of these.
Thanks Kevin. I was one of the ROs on that stage with Mike, I was on the right spotting scope with the remote. We actually were only using the spotting scopes to see where the shots (misses) were going to help the shooters when they got off the line.
I will be working on a group buy around mid summer.
Kirk R
I will be working on a group buy around mid summer.
Kirk R
What a pussy ass clusterfuck, come on the internet and smear one of the biggest supporters of this sports name claiming cheating. Shooting sports get guys who take the shit extremwly serious which is understandable, hell we spend thousands of dollars on the tools. Ive seen this type of behavior alot in sr and bullseye, guy trains all year long and then gets his ass handed to him, whats he do, he submits protests saying everyone and their dog cheated.
I wasnt there, no dog in the fight, but know george and george's charachter, if you think he would purposefully cheat or allow his guys to cheat your sadly mistaken. Why would he ever need to cheat?
Then i read the scores from that day didnt even count, and you still throw these accusations out there, grow the fuck up, train harder and stop being a little bitch staining what can only be described as an amazing match, this shit harms this sport more than any percieved cheating you believe you saw
I wasnt there, no dog in the fight, but know george and george's charachter, if you think he would purposefully cheat or allow his guys to cheat your sadly mistaken. Why would he ever need to cheat?
Then i read the scores from that day didnt even count, and you still throw these accusations out there, grow the fuck up, train harder and stop being a little bitch staining what can only be described as an amazing match, this shit harms this sport more than any percieved cheating you believe you saw
On the ND/AD thing:
My Daughter and I were at a very Popular Team match and was starting a high points barricade stage. She went first as planned an upon her first position, I could see she was taking way too long for the first Bang. She worked the bolt several times dumping live rounds to the ground. While keeping the rifle directed on the berm she stated "it is locked up, it wont do anything". The RO very professionally ask me if I wanted to help her, I stepped up and ask her if the Safety was on?. She attempted to work the safety back and forward on on the 2-3 time it moved the rifle went BANG. She impacted the berm surprisingly near the steel, and as to be expected, we DQed the stage. A quick operation between stages, on a Jewell, sent us to the last stage of the match where we cleaned a 1k yard stage.
Was this an AD or ND if there is no difference?
My Daughter and I were at a very Popular Team match and was starting a high points barricade stage. She went first as planned an upon her first position, I could see she was taking way too long for the first Bang. She worked the bolt several times dumping live rounds to the ground. While keeping the rifle directed on the berm she stated "it is locked up, it wont do anything". The RO very professionally ask me if I wanted to help her, I stepped up and ask her if the Safety was on?. She attempted to work the safety back and forward on on the 2-3 time it moved the rifle went BANG. She impacted the berm surprisingly near the steel, and as to be expected, we DQed the stage. A quick operation between stages, on a Jewell, sent us to the last stage of the match where we cleaned a 1k yard stage.
Was this an AD or ND if there is no difference?
One of the really useful items handed out at the start if the match was the stage program. It was an outstanding document that was really helpful. It gave the course of fire, ranges and stage rules. I just want to thank Jake for putting it together. I wasn't the only one continually referring to it as we went from stage to stage. Hopefully this will become a standard part of all competitions.
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
As far as these matches go it would be up to the MD since there's no standardized rule set and even in any given match there's usually no written rule to reference. If we look again to USPSA since they have a very comprehensive rule book and it's consistently applied you'd find that they make no distinction between a ND and an AD and the situation you describe would have been a match DQ.
Being there has diddly shit to do with this conversation. the ro's didnt see cheating, the match director chimed in saying he made a decision after hearing the sides. Yup didnt need to be there to know throwing out cheating claims on the internet after the fact only makes those involved look like a bunch of 8 year olds arguing if he was safe at home plate or not. Guess we all better not discuss anything unless we were there, what a douche
Nuff said
Agree that not enough shooters volunteer to RO, and I personally don't RO as much anymore (including line safety and pit boss at F/TR) because you get sick of the attitudes. Shooters need to remember that the RO's do NOT know you and or your level of training or how "operator" you are. Asking to check your chamber / gear / whatever is NOT a personal attack on you or your level of badassery. I know tensions get high mid timed stage for score, etc, but im guessing the guys that complain about the RO's never pull the duty. I wasn't at this match specifically, just speaking from being on both sides of the coin.
Oh they were thrown out right then and there. If you want to talk about the mans character, you have every right to do so as it sounds like you know him. But in terms of your opinion on what he did or didn't do at a match you weren't at, sorry doesn't really do much.
The MD went to some length to mention that some of the ROs were relatively inexperienced during the morning safety briefing on the first day. In a perfect world that would have put shooters on their best behavior and encouraged them to make the ROs' job as easy as possible. In the world we live in, some shooters might have sensed a potential weakness to be exploited. The ROs weren't the problem-they busted their asses to make this event run and did a fine job of it.
I understand your point, I wasnt there and didnt see first hand what happened.
My point is that in any sport, there is no cheating if there is no call for it by the officials after review of the situation, period. I know that differs from what you say you saw first hand, and that can be frustrating, which is my second point, whats to gain by bringing it up on the internet? Who's gonna feel better afterwards? No one. The alledged is going to be offended, the alledgers are gonna feel like he got away with it, the 3rd party officiating crew has to defend their actions, and then there's the new guy thats never shot a match trying to decide if he wants to shoot a match with cheaters, or shoot a match where every action afterwards is smeared all over the internet. It's lose lose all around.
I know the alledged and feel i know his charachter, and yes thats just my opinion, and yes i wasnt there. Regardless the scores from that day didnt count and had no relevance on the outcome of the match. Again, my point is the MD spoke, the RO's spoke, there was no decision that anyone cheated at the event, at the time of a protest, so there is no gain in throwing it out there on the open internet, frustrated about it or not. A better course of action would've been voice your concerns with the MD so he can ensure there are measures in place next time to enforce all standards, and make a better match, which at the end of the day is win win across the board.
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