2020 PRS Finale info

[Lowlight]

The excuses are just that,

Ruger is Sponsoring the Rimfire Series for them, so clearly they want to make a good impression, I am sure it was a lot of money, probably a $50,000 price tag for that one too.

 

[Rob01]

Helps marketing and advertising to have your new for 2021 rifle win the production class in 2020 too

 

[308pirate]

check 8 rifles

That was it?

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

I was discussing this with some friends when discussing traveling to Nebraska to shoot that Hunter match in February.

I wish you really could compete with an actual hunting rifle. You can't, it will be gamed all to hell, and the line will be filled with Match/Hunting chassis hybrids with ZCOs, ATACRs, and just a few ounces under the weight limit.

Production class is stupid except that you can now buy $2500 GAPs and MPAs, etc.

At this point, I'm shooting club matches in Laramie and Cody, maybe some Front Range stuff that piques my interest, and the Heart Mountain match Pete puts on.

I'm no longer willing to pay $300 to drive hours to watch the backstabbing and gaming that goes on at two day events.

 

[FCrifles]

You can't limit a class by price, everything is expensive. Like it has been said, you have to limit the equipment and or shooter experience.

Matt may be newer in the rifle comps, but is/was a pro level archery shooter, as I was 20 years ago. Production class should be the largest# of competitors, just as Hunter class was years ago in the IBO for archery. Cater to your everyday guy and gal, they are the ones that will advance your sport to the next level.

Open/Pro: No weight limit, it would be fun to watch an idiot transition a 50lb rifle under time limits. Caliber restrictions I could see for the steel.

Limited: 20lb max at one time, 26" barrel

Hunter: 12lb max, 5 round mags, 15X max on scopes.

Senior: 55+ 12lb max. Extended stage time by maybe 10 more seconds.

Allison Zane: Just Allison, she hurts feelings, because she is that good and doesn't even realize it.

 

[Newbie2020]

I was discussing this with some friends when discussing traveling to Nebraska to shoot that Hunter match in February.

I wish you really could compete with an actual hunting rifle. You can't, it will be gamed all to hell, and the line will be filled with Match/Hunting chassis hybrids with ZCOs, ATACRs, and just a few ounces under the weight limit.

Production class is stupid except that you can now buy $2500 GAPs and MPAs, etc.

At this point, I'm shooting club matches in Laramie and Cody, maybe some Front Range stuff that piques my interest, and the Heart Mountain match Pete puts on.

I'm no longer willing to pay $300 to drive hours to watch the backstabbing and gaming that goes on at two day events.

whats the weight limit?

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

whats the weight limit?

Without looking again, it's 16 lbs and a power factor that includes 6.5CM IIRC.

My open class MPA with M24 profile 26" barrel and all the fixins' including a big ass ATACR 7-35X56 is 18.5lbs. lol

Very few people are dragging around 16lb rifles hunting elk, Mule Deer, or anything else you have to pack around to do.

 

[Mormegil87]

I think the answer to production class, if the PRS wants to leave the amount of classes in place is really simple.

At the end of every season, compile a list of rifles and model numbers that fit the criteria the PRS and it's MD committee establish. Vote on said list of rifle and model numbers. When the vote is completed, that list of approved model numbers is what comprise the "Production Division" for the subsequent season. If your rifle is not on the list, you're an "Open Division" shooter.

Yes it's a lot more work up front the first year or two but the amount of drama, like this weekend's, it would prevent would be worth it.

If you want to cut down on the upfront work, ask manufacturers to submit their rifles for approval.

 

[Dthomas3523]

That was it?

More or less. The rest of the rifles only have a speed limit and that’s just to protect the steel. Running 3300 won’t help you in this game.

 

[b6graham]

Hmm wonder where they got those? LOL

ironically....the same person who created this $2,500 limit for PRS Production rifles

all roads lead back to him

 

[308pirate]

If you want to cut down on the upfront work, ask manufacturers to submit their rifles for approval.

You mean like USPSA?


LOL

The playbook is already written. It just needed some tweaks to fit.

 

[Mormegil87]

@308pirate I've never shot USPSA so I would be way out of my lane commenting on how they do things.

 

[NiteQwill]

@308pirate I've never shot USPSA so I would be way out of my lane commenting on how they do things.

Basically they have a approved, manufacture-submitted list of guns with a minimum amount of manufacture to play in Production class.

 

[Mormegil87]

Sounds easy enough to implement to me

 

[Diver160651]

Total Ruger buy in... Ruger is supporting the Rimfire series, makes perfect sense now,

Just saw this, at least they didn't make you wait, as always, follow the money !

this is short term money from niche divisions - to make it long term and increase revenue, the bazillion hunters need to be focused on and converted. With that approach other companies and divisions not remotely interested the PRS today will become fans.

 

[kriller134]

What I don’t understand is as an organization why wouldn’t you look at other shooting sports organizations and take the good and implement it? Is it laziness? Ego? Just seems like the drama is always something that should have been thought of long before a single round was ever loaded into a mag. Safety and division issues should never be an issue.

 

[Dthomas3523]

What I don’t understand is as an organization why wouldn’t you look at other shooting sports organizations and take the good and implement it? Is it laziness? Ego? Just seems like the drama is always something that should have been thought of long before a single round was ever loaded into a mag. Safety and division issues should never be an issue.

Ego.

In general there’s a lot of people in PRS type shooting who believe they know more than the other disciplines that have been around much longer.

That goes for shooters and organizations. We are 10yrs behind most things. Be it hand loading or running an organization.

This last statement isn’t directed at a particular person or organization as I’ve seen the behavior all over:

Real leaders admit when they are wrong and they almost always shoulder the blame even when it wasn’t actually them. It starts from the top down and you’re responsible for all of it.

This industry is littered with “it’s not my fault.”

 

[b6graham]

And 10x behind the size of those other sports. Growing or not. This sport dwarfs the other normal ones in cost. Glock for SSP/Production $600 ready to go. Thats less than 1 barrel which doesn't even last a season

We could all buy a full open rig for the cost of one PRS production rifle. And another one for the cost of accessories. And 30k rounds of ammo for a season of PRS ammo

 

[308pirate]

@308pirate I've never shot USPSA so I would be way out of my lane commenting on how they do things.

It was basically a comment about the idiocy of all these new shooting "sports" who do zero fucking research on best practices employed in similar pursuits.

The fact that lighting one off by mistake is still not a universal match DQ in every single PRS match blows my fucking mind.

That's all I'll say about that........

 

[darth_ritis]

I don't understand the suggestions where limits progress upwards as you go from beginner to pro level. Open class should be 10 lbs maximum with optics and bipod/sling, and mandatory 30 caliber. I mean, are you a good shot or not?

 

[anotherwannabe]

Helps marketing and advertising to have your new for 2021 rifle win the production class in 2020 too

Somehow people didn’t hear Doug/Ruger did the exact same thing last year for 2019 finale, magically listing the 26 inch heavy barrel creed version that no one else could get (that he had also been shooting most of the year without it on ruger’s website) right before the finale.

there was just as much shady shit then as there is now, it’s not a fluke

 

[Diver160651]

You know what I finally figured it out. If an organization is only after the current money; fuck it, the PRO class can only shoot Production class with stickers everywhere and pants that match the jersey. Jerseys can fly high, manufacturer's niche departments can be happy, and we all move forward. By the current logic, we'll all be so inspired to get a production rifle, soon sell our customs to join this "inspirational" class.

No need to try to get 80% of the market into PRS; hunters and casual range shooters don’t matter, who cares about math or economics


By the way, I’m a match shooter and a hunter!

 

[patriotnation]

Somehow people didn’t hear Doug/Ruger did the exact same thing last year for 2019 finale, magically listing the 26 inch heavy barrel creed version that no one else could get (that he had also been shooting most of the year without it on ruger’s website) right before the finale.

there was just as much shady shit then as there is now, it’s not a fluke

I guess it really is always about money. Shit
what a cluster

I shoot these type of matches to have fun and enjoy the company while trying to improve and learn, not the drama.

 

[patriotnation]

It looks like there was all of 8 shooters in Production Class. Surely is isn't difficult to pull them aside before the match and make sure everyone understands the rules and everything is legit. Have shooters work through a simple checklist. That's what the PRS should be doing as the owner of the Series / that's what your subscription should be paying for. Put one guy in charge to make it happen and square shit away before.

Absolutely should have been all handled BEFORE the match. There is no excuse to cause a shitshow after the fact. If it was such a big deal, the shooter should have been told his gun of choice would be in Open class and had the chance to use a different rifle and he still would have kicked ass. Oh well, sucks it's a shitshow but they stepped in it it sounds like.

 

[mmlook]

Absolutely should have been all handled BEFORE the match. There is no excuse to cause a shitshow after the fact. If it was such a big deal, the shooter should have been told his gun of choice would be in Open class and had the chance to use a different rifle and he still would have kicked ass. Oh well, sucks it's a shitshow but they stepped in it it sounds like.

it would have been a non-issue if he got second

I put $5 on that, all day, every day.

it's because he smashed the competition, like he's been doing all year.

 

[Ludasmith]

Wouldn't the point of a production rifle be so that others can compete using the same rifle, at the same time? That's without even arguing if it being a prototype (you know it wasn't one of the first 13 off the actual production line) is truly a production rifle.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Wouldn't the point of a production rifle be so that others can compete using the same rifle, at the same time? That's without even arguing if it being a prototype (you know it wasn't one of the first 13 off the actual production line) is truly a production rifle.

The actual point as it sits is for manufacturers to showcase their cheaper rifles.

If it was for any other reason or even the reason stated in their rules, there would be more than like 8 people shooting it and their wouldn’t be this type of drama over something so trivial.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

So can we start a thread to discuss the fixes and a community generated "going forward" plan that grows our sport before attempting to grow the industry?
IF we grow the sport, the industry grows from it within itself. Attempting to grow the industry first just does not work out....and I am industry, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Mormegil87]

Hi,

So can we start a thread to discuss the fixes and a community generated "going forward" plan that grows our sport before attempting to grow the industry?
IF we grow the sport, the industry grows from it within itself. Attempting to grow the industry first just does not work out....and I am industry, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

Yes please

 

[Dthomas3523]

Hi,

So can we start a thread to discuss the fixes and a community generated "going forward" plan that grows our sport before attempting to grow the industry?
IF we grow the sport, the industry grows from it within itself. Attempting to grow the industry first just does not work out....and I am industry, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

Do it. I’ll sticky it.

 

[Diver160651]

Can you start it by taking the relevant posts out of this thread and planting them in the new one rather than having someone like Frank rewrite the suggestions?

 

[b6graham]

Hi,

So can we start a thread to discuss the fixes and a community generated "going forward" plan that grows our sport before attempting to grow the industry?
IF we grow the sport, the industry grows from it within itself. Attempting to grow the industry first just does not work out....and I am industry, lol.

Sincerely,
Theis

the sport grows outside of NRL/PRS/CD/RTC thank goodness

is there overlap between ranges and MDs? yes sometimes.

 

[kriller134]

I like how their statement says that twenty something MDs voted on it and agreed with the outcome. As if there isn’t a conflict of interest. As If the series doesn’t already strong arm them into the types of events they can hold.

 

[msstate56]

Weight is before accessories.

But you have to carry everything with you.

The way I read it for the new NRL hunter series is based off the Hornady Precision Hunter Steel Challege rules. 12# light hunter, 16# heavy hunter. This includes everything you can use attached to the rifle during the match. Bipods, suppressors, weights, etc. I’ve seen some contradictory listings as to whether an empty mag counts toward the weight limit. You can’t weigh in, then attach a 2# plate at the first stage. And yes you have to carry your pack and tripod the whole match.

I’m very interested in this series as I am a hunter, and mostly use PRS matches to make me a more efficient LR hunter anyway. My current PRS rifle weighs 15#12oz in 6.5 CM shooting factory ammo. I never bought into the super heavy impractical rifles to begin with.

I just wish we had more of these matches in the SE. They have one in TN, which I plan on shooting. I’m dismayed with the stranglehold PRS has on the Southeast. I’ve mentioned before that I truly enjoyed when we had “outlaw” matches around here. Then they decided to make them PRS “sanctioned” matches and doubled the match fee. But the matches were the exact same. The vast majority of the people shooting these matches don’t give a shit about PRS points.

 

[B-P-UU]

From the NRL Hunter website:
What is the weight limit included? The weight limit for each class includes everything mounted to your rifle except for your magazine and ammunition. This includes scope, bipod, sling, or any other attachment that you wish to use on your rifle during the match.

***********
Suppressor and muzzle devices are included in the weight as well.

So basically everything but loaded mag.

 

[Dthomas3523]

From the NRL Hunter website:
What is the weight limit included? The weight limit for each class includes everything mounted to your rifle except for your magazine and ammunition. This includes scope, bipod, sling, or any other attachment that you wish to use on your rifle during the match.

***********
Suppressor and muzzle devices are included in the weight as well.

So basically everything but loaded mag.

Interesting that answer conflicts with the description of what they consider a rifle.

 

[samb300]

From the NRL Hunter website:
What is the weight limit included? The weight limit for each class includes everything mounted to your rifle except for your magazine and ammunition. This includes scope, bipod, sling, or any other attachment that you wish to use on your rifle during the match.

***********
Suppressor and muzzle devices are included in the weight as well.

So basically everything but loaded mag.

If anyone is interested, I’ll be making 8# tungsten magazine base plates and selling them out of a windowless panel van at all NRL matches.

 

[vivdav]

As a newish shooter I started this thread because of a genuine interest in the year end best of the best competition. Unfortunately it seems it has devolved into a pro wrestling like fiasco for the production class. I get it... nothing but a money grab. I signed up for my first PRS national event in Navasota but now wonder if I really want to. I signed up because I wanted to get better and compete. The reality is I do not have a chance of winning but I definitely will get better and learn from shooters that are much better than me. I wonder if I would be better off continuing with local matches and learning from some national level local competitors. I can shoot 6 to 8 local matches for the cost of one national match put on by PRS. Curious where it is all headed......

 

[NiteQwill]

As a newish shooter I started this thread because of a genuine interest in the year end best of the best competition. Unfortunately it seems it has devolved into a pro wrestling like fiasco for the production class. I get it... nothing but a money grab. I signed up for my first PRS national event in Navasota but now wonder if I really want to. I signed up because I wanted to get better and compete. The reality is I do not have a chance of winning but I definitely will get better and learn from shooters that are much better than me. I wonder if I would be better off continuing with local matches and learning from some national level local competitors. I can shoot 6 to 8 local matches for the cost of one national match put on by PRS. Curious where it is all headed......

I would still continue with your plans and shoot the match. You will learn a lot regardless of the internal drama. Good luck!

 

[Northfl]

As a newish shooter I started this thread because of a genuine interest in the year end best of the best competition. Unfortunately it seems it has devolved into a pro wrestling like fiasco for the production class. I get it... nothing but a money grab. I signed up for my first PRS national event in Navasota but now wonder if I really want to. I signed up because I wanted to get better and compete. The reality is I do not have a chance of winning but I definitely will get better and learn from shooters that are much better than me. I wonder if I would be better off continuing with local matches and learning from some national level local competitors. I can shoot 6 to 8 local matches for the cost of one national match put on by PRS. Curious where it is all headed......

Definitely continue with your matxh plans. It will be a learning experience if nothing else. I think the third match i shot was a two day. Its different than a local one day for sure. I always think the same way no chance of winning it but eager to learn. In my area there are a few pros that are going to start production class for what ever reason. Not sure why but i will keep doing me until i get better at it and then will continue to do me if i move to open. Dont pay any attention to the drama internally. Just go shoot and have fun and learn

 

[JustSendit]

As a newish shooter I started this thread because of a genuine interest in the year end best of the best competition. Unfortunately it seems it has devolved into a pro wrestling like fiasco for the production class. I get it... nothing but a money grab. I signed up for my first PRS national event in Navasota but now wonder if I really want to. I signed up because I wanted to get better and compete. The reality is I do not have a chance of winning but I definitely will get better and learn from shooters that are much better than me. I wonder if I would be better off continuing with local matches and learning from some national level local competitors. I can shoot 6 to 8 local matches for the cost of one national match put on by PRS. Curious where it is all headed......

Dude don’t be dissuaded, every thread here has a mind of its own and often goes a different direction than the TS intended. A lot of guys including myself complain about PRS but at the end of the day I’m addicted. I 100% say do a pro level match, I learned more from one pro match this year than I did the 5 one day matches I made it to. Just so happened it was an AG cup match to boot so it was especially challenging. I went back to my range with a clear picture of what I needed to practice!

 

[vivdav]

Excellent advice and will plan on going. The learning curve is definitely straight up these days. I need some classes and more practice. DFAT sounds like a great way to dry practice. Just hope the drama subsides

 

[NiteQwill]

Excellent advice and will plan on going. The learning curve is definitely straight up these days. I need some classes and more practice. DFAT sounds like a great way to dry practice. Just hope the drama subsides

Every single shooting organization has drama, it is certainly not the first and will not be the last. That is the territory of competition where people WANT to win, all the way from any local club matches to Olympic Biathlon.

 

[skatz11]

Successful shooting sport organizations such as USPSA and IDPA have been through these types of situations. Both have been around a lot longer than PRS.

The common thing that keep these sports going and growing is being open and accessible to new shooters and keeping the dedicated competitor happy with competitive equity.

1. Clearly defined Division based on equipment type and features, not arbitrary dollar values. Caliber, mag capacity, weight, compensators and so on.

2. Shooter classification. Gives every skill level a chance to win against their class and see how they stack up against the rest of the field.

For PRS style shooting I like the idea of weight limits. Not sure what to make the weights but I think open, practical, and hunter make the most sense for divisions.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

This topic of discussion came up in last night's podcast episode. Something has got to change. Im sure i ruffled some feathers but, i dont really give a shit. We are going to be holding some 1 day matches that dont fit the mold and won't be affiliated with any series and will have cash prizes.

 

[NiteQwill]

This topic of discussion came up in last night's podcast episode. Something has got to change. Im sure i ruffled some feathers but, i dont really give a shit. We are going to be holding some 1 day matches that dont fit the mold and won't be affiliated with any series and will have cash prizes.

Which podcast? I follow a few.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

Which podcast? I follow a few.

Episode 31: PRS Finale AAR and Finale Drama | Just Fn Send It Podcast

Jeff is back from the finale, of course, and we talk about his experience there. Along with that, we discuss the PRS drama, plans for Pactolus Precision, and a whole bunch of other shit. Jeff needs to get a new microphone. His volume records much lower than mine, so sorry for that. Great...

davidbakergli.podbean.com

 

[AlwineArcher]

As a newish shooter I started this thread because of a genuine interest in the year end best of the best competition. Unfortunately it seems it has devolved into a pro wrestling like fiasco for the production class. I get it... nothing but a money grab. I signed up for my first PRS national event in Navasota but now wonder if I really want to. I signed up because I wanted to get better and compete. The reality is I do not have a chance of winning but I definitely will get better and learn from shooters that are much better than me. I wonder if I would be better off continuing with local matches and learning from some national level local competitors. I can shoot 6 to 8 local matches for the cost of one national match put on by PRS. Curious where it is all headed......

Sure there is plenty of drama in this sport, but I haven't ever competed in anything that didn't have drama at the end of the day.
Shooting it still fun!
I started shooting production this year because it seemed like a great way to get started. I probably should move up to "open" now but I am feeling slightly motivated to stay in the Production division.

Stay the course, go shoot that 2 day national match!
I shot my first match about 9 months ago, and absolutely got crushed! That match taught me what I needed to work, I went home, started working on those things, and was able to drastically improve for my next match a few weeks later.

Good luck at the match, forget about the drama, and you'll have an awesome time!

Shoot Straight
Matt Alwine

 

[_Windrider_]

Growth is impacted,

The numbers are not what is claimed, especially when you can get someone to sign up but not shoot. There are enough people out there who will support you, so getting a couple hundred who don't shoot to pay a minor fee is easy, especially if they were prior students.

The growth is what we see on the streets, how the matches change, what investment is being put back into the product, this growth is stalled.

This was the scam that caused the last owner to fold up and give it away essentially. He was fooled by all the talk, bought the Series for 5x more money than it was worth, and then found out he bought an illusion. The non Functioning site and weak ass list of shooters, most of who won't shoot anyway. Why he gave it away, not worth the effort. The biggest growth is the sister series overseas, not in the US.

You have to invest in your company, you have to invest in what works, not just for your own range but for the series. Nascar invests in tracks they don't own too because it's about the product. Nascar manages the drivers, Nascar writes the rules and then enforces them across all, big teams don't get a pass because of their spending habits. They want the Product to be consistent and the product is the race. If a race at their track is awesome and they let the other tracks do whatever, the product will be different.

This is designed to compete with its self, Shannon wants the most matches, sponsors, and training possible at his range, the other ranges in the series are competing with him. In fact, they use it as a tactic, you dont' want to play by PRS rules, we'll put as many PRS matches on the same weekend we can to suppress your numbers. He is well known for his strong-arm tactics. In terms of business, it works by accident, if you want to call this working. No business that changes hands 5 times in as many years can be considered successful. It was musical chairs with a cost attached.

Competition Dynamics,
Riflemans Team Challenge
NRL
Border Wars
Unaffiliated Matches or local comps

There are other groups out there, ones where this kind of drama is few and far between.

dont forget the guardian series of matches. Low key., fun and supports a great cause.

 

[Lowlight]

Not true,

there doesn't have to be drama, we had next to no drama before the PRS Appeared, any comments stating drama should be expected is stupid and a bold ass lie

You don't need the drama and the drama absolutely hurts the sport

There are PLENTY OF CHOICES, you don't have to support a drama-filled series when you can attend a match without it.

These problems are constantly recurring in one form or another... why do you think there is no SH Team, I would totally support a team if this was worth it, it's not

Stop lying to people, stop telling them this is normal, it's not it's created by design to support their friends and those who pay them, the FACT RUGER is the new Sponsor for 2021 proves it.

Don't listen to the LIARS, you can learn just as much somewhere else, vote with your WALLET, these guys don't want you leaving because you fund their games. They are taking the money from Peter and giving it to Paul