208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

#51
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Hi Rich

Wind is up today but I will be running tests on H4350 in the future to see what the upper pressure limit is. I think I am close but haen't explored it yet. The accuracy is really consistent from 47.5 grains up so I expect good results. I will also try Varget around your 43.0 grain area for velocities to compare to the H4350. One thing I have liked about H4350 though is that it seems to have a large area sweet spot. I noticed this in my 300 SAUM. Varget does run well is the 308 but seems to like high pressure loads from my experience and that is why I haven't used it as often as maybe I should. My H4350 load is a long way from a sticky bolt situtation because I am just starting to see a very little primer extrusion and no extractor case marking at all. This means I could have a lot more velocity left to claim. Will try and forward later. My goal actually for this rifle was to equal the 6mmBR in wind drift with a reasonable load that will give me excellent barrel life and I think I have that now. If I need the speed I can shoot my 300 SAUM. Steve
 
#52
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Steve,

I found the sweet spot in Varget seemed rather long also, but then I'm used to a tenth of a grain or two dropping the load out of tune with RL15 and RL17. Might be a bad comparison but I had single digit SD's across an entire half grain and suspect I could extend that further if I tested more on the lower and upper ends.

Let us know if/when you run into the upper pressure limit. If you can get above 2650 it will be worth exploring for those of us with shorter barrels. While there is a tradeoff with velocity, one thing I like about Varget is that it gets the job done with less powder. When running RL17 I was hitting the compression line trying to get more velocity out of the load. It had the speed, but the compression made uniform seating depth a pain in the ass.

The bullets would push back and even if they didn't, they frequently required individual adjustments of the seating die to get them all to the same depth. With Varget, I just set the die and go.

Rich
 
#53
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Rich

I know I can get 2650 using about 49.0 - 49.5 grains of H4350 because I was nearly there using 48.5 however the accuracy may not be there. Will have to test somemore. They will be high pressure loads but I think within the realm of possiblity. However, I don't think you will be able to reach the same velocity due to case capacity. Remember I have my bullets seated way out. Varget maybe the best way for you.

Steve
 
#54
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Steve,

Have to see. Maybe, maybe not. My chamber length is around 2.960. My feedramp is modified to allow for longer rounds and I'm using the type II Alpha Mags, I can load pretty long, though certainly not .040 beyond the 3.00" mark as you are able.

I'd be interested in the results either way, just for curiosity's sake.

Rich
 
#55
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Rich

The winds died so I went to the range for more testing.
I can get 2650 fps using 50.0 grains of H4350 however I was getting extractor wipe on the brass and a little stickly bolt lift. I consider this way above max and am very comfortable shooting the accurate loading at 48.0 grains which gives just under 2600 fps. There are no pressure signs at all at 48.0 grains.

I did try your loads using Varget and got your velocities. 42.0 grains Varget gave 2480 while 43.0 gives 2512 fps. Good comparison and it does appear that H4350 will give a higher velocity than Varget.

It appears that the longer barrel isn't generating the free velocity I wanted and am considering shortening the barrel back to my standard 28" because it fits into my cases better.

Tried 208 A-Max's and they were good but not as good as the Bergers however they may get better if I played with their OAL.

Steve
 
#56
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

You say they didn't perform as well as the Bergers...in what regard? What sort of testing were you doing with them?

Your results are interesting. I wonder how quick 48gr of H4350 would get the 208s moving in my 24"er
 
#57
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

I'll try and find out soon enough about the H4350 and 208s. I found the Bergers were much easier to tune...as in stick 'em in the lands about.005" and you're good to go. The 208s are more forgiving of seating depth, but for me less accurate all around.
 
#58
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Rich and Medic

I found the same thing as medic in that the A-Max weren't as accurate as the Bergers in my rifle at 300 meters. I am running the Bergers at .010" jammed and as medic indicated they are very accurate and easier to tune. Seat them and go without needing any OAL testing for the best length. I put 3 of the Bergers side by each touching at 300 meters before getting excited and pulling the last 2 out of the group a bit!

I am only an 'F' class shooter, Rich, and all I was testing were some loads and their accuracy. I don't use this rifle for hunting so bullet expansion performance doesn't interest me in this application.

Steve
 
#59
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Interesting. I will try some of my load at 300 or better on Monday and see how well it does. I like the looks and reviews of a lot of Berger's stuff but I have a hard time believing its performance is is a big enough improvement to demand twice the price.

Rich
 
#60
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Rich

Depends on what you are doing. For tactical shooting on relatively large targets probably not, while for 'F' class shooting on the small IKFRA targets, a small difference in accuracy means the difference between winning and out of the running in most local matches. At the World's TR shooting in Australia last week I was told that 2 points and 'V's separate the first 200 positions!! That is why I chase accuracy first before the top possible velocity.

Steve
 
#61
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SteveB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rich

Depends on what you are doing. For tactical shooting on relatively large targets probably not, while for 'F' class shooting on the small IKFRA targets, a small difference in accuracy means the difference between winning and out of the running in most local matches. At the World's TR shooting in Australia last week I was told that 2 points and 'V's separate the first 200 positions!! That is why I chase accuracy first before the top possible velocity.

Steve </div></div>

I believe that about the point spread. I also don't fault you for chasing accuracy over velocity. I'm more into the tactical type stuff, though I've shot zero of it competitively. My own steel is tactically oriented. I'm in law enforcement so that was an easy fit when I got into LR shooting.

The smallest target I have right now is 6" across, but when shooting at 800+ I'm usually shooting at my scaled IPSC that's 10" across. An MOA sized target at 1040 isn't what I would call easy. However what got me most irritated last time was my RL17 load was jumping around on me. My windage was good but the POI was high and low shot to shot with the same hold, part of which I attribute to me, part of which I attribute to velocity changes with the temp unstable powder.

I've shot a few competitions, but more for fun and experience than for score, prize, or standing. Certainly if I was competing at the level you are talking about I'd say the extra money spent on projectiles is probably worth it. I'm not a hater, I've thought about chopping my barrel and switching to a lighter round like the Berger 185 or Sierra 190 to keep velocity up.

I like experimenting with the heavier bullets. They do noticeably better in the wind and in the modern world I see no reason not to utilize better designed bullets.

Rich
 
#62
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Rich

On our targets, (800, 900, 1000 yards are the same target) the 5 ring (10 ring in US) is 1 MOA and the V (X ring in US) is 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards. At 1000 yards you are shooting at a 5" V(X) bull and if you aren't punching a high V (X) count and shooting clean you aren't in the running if the wind is calm. Therefore you actually need a rifle capable of shooting about 1/4 MOA right out to 1000 yards to be in the game to allow for shooting errors when shooting prone. They don't call "F" Class "Belly Benchrest" for nothing!!

However I have been looking at the tactical shooting for a while because it adds an interesting touch to shooting.

This is why Varget and H4350 are so important due to their temperature stability. The difference in density attitude changes the POA so much that you don't need another variable to contend with on top of.

Steve
 
#63
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

TOF only adds another dimension to the equation. I would assume it's only milliseconds difference between the 208 @ 2500 and the 208 @ 2650. I hear you on the elevation changes due to the high ES/SD numbers though.
 
#64
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

What about that vv560? I seen a guy launching 180 bergers out of a 7mm 22" barrel and seeing 2900+. I know the case capacity of a 7wsm is higher but maybe that powder will give an extra 40-50fps?
 
#65
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ouch!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about that vv560? I seen a guy launching 180 bergers out of a 7mm 22" barrel and seeing 2900+. I know the case capacity of a 7wsm is higher but maybe that powder will give an extra 40-50fps? </div></div>

How temperature stable is it? If speed is what you crave RL17 seems much more common and I was getting around 2650fps with it. Speed is nice, but consistency is more important in my book. I live in a part of the country with pretty wildly changing temperatures and weather patterns so for me, a temp unstable powder is just a headache I don't need.

Rich
 
#66
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

I tried rl17 with my 243 and was getting almost 3200 with 105 bergers. After trying it for a while, and weather change here alot as well. I gave up on it.

I dont know the temp stability on that powder I was just throwing it out there and seen if anyone is yet to try it.
 
#67
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ouch!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried rl17 with my 243 and was getting almost 3200 with 105 bergers. After trying it for a while, and weather change here alot as well. I gave up on it.

I dont know the temp stability on that powder I was just throwing it out there and seen if anyone is yet to try it. </div></div>

Did you read any of this thread or just skip to the end and post for the hell of it?
 
#68
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ouch!!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried rl17 with my 243 and was getting almost 3200 with 105 bergers. After trying it for a while, and weather change here alot as well. I gave up on it.

I dont know the temp stability on that powder I was just throwing it out there and seen if anyone is yet to try it. </div></div>

Did you read any of this thread or just skip to the end and post for the hell of it?
</div></div>

Yep, did I miss the results of the vv560 powder that I mentioned before?

I could care less about the rl17 results. I want something with more consistancy. Is my grammar not good enough for you to understand my question?

Here Ill try again, has anyone tried the vv560 powder for the heavies in a .308 if not does anyone have one to try. I only have a gas gun in a .308 so probably wouldnt be as good of results for the heavies.
 
#69
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

I apologize Ouch, I meant to throw that in another thread but had this one open and mixed it up! Probably wouldn't have been productive in the other thread either. Lesson for the day I suppose, don't drink and post! =)

As for your question, I've not seen a whole lot posted about the VV powders. I suspect due to pricing and availability. I did see a thread that the owner from GA precision posted regarding the .243 I believe and he was using H4350. Do you have access to any of that?

Rich
 
#70
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

I might be wrong, but I think Montana Marine may have used some of the VV550 or VV560 (can't and don't know much about the name of the powder) at one point or another. results were similar to the RL17 as far as speed goes, but that's all I remember.
 
#71
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

I have h4350 in my .243 now. I have h414, rl17, varget,h1000, and h4831 available for trying on a gas .308 all I have is 178amax now. I'm thinking about getting some 208's and looking for a bolt gun to shoot the 208's since I'm starting to like the 30 cal more than I thought I would.
 
#72
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

The 178s should be fine with your bolt gun. How long is the barrel? There are some posts with I think Varget where somebody was getting those moving around 2400 from a gas gun.

30 cal is tough to beat for versatility and affordability. The 260 has a flatter trajectory and thats pretty much king of the competitions these days but the trajectory is really only an advantage on unknown distance shoots.

I'd see what velocities you can get out of your gas gun before buying a new weapon to use a new projectile. You might get lucky.

Rich
 
#73
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Ouch!, I don't know what the twist on your gas .308 is, but the RL17 and Varget worked well for me in the AR10T 11.25 twist I have. In fact, the brass looked better at "hot" levels on the RL17 that "mild"levels in Varget shooting 208/210s.
 
#74
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Its a factory dpms so Im guessing 11.25 or 11. I dont like rl 17 its too hit and miss speed was awesome in my .243. I would shoot matches from 400-1100 and if the sd and es are all over the place its not going to make my life easy. Cant turn a gas gun into a guess the fps today your already at a disadvantage with one.
 
#75
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

I have been following this thread and the R17 one as well. I decided to load up some different powders to see what was the difference between some of the faster powders that I had in my stock.

I would like to say that I have been loading for quite some time by using this method for seeing where pressure is seen in my equipment and then backing down to a good level beneath the pressure to find an accurate load. As always start low and work up. If you don't agree with the way I did this then please keep it to yourself. I tire of people lecturing about loading above book max. If you can't read pressure, stay the hell away from max.

Rifle: DTA SRS 22" 1-11 twist
Brass: 4th fired Winchester
Primer: R 9 1/2
Length from olgive: 2.202 (chamber measures 2.256 to olgive)
Chrono: Prochrono 10' from muzzle

Starting points received from lots of different sources that I researched. One shot fired at each charge into the same target at 100 yards.

Varget:
42.5.....no reading
43........2478 fps
43.5.....2492
44........2508
44.5.....2549
45........2564 Slight flattening
45.5.....2569 Definite flattening, stopped
Notes: 44, 44.5, and 45 were all nearly through the same hole

H4350:
45.5.....2376 fps
46........2393
46.5.....2419
47........2442
47.5.....2464
48........2482
48.5.....2501
49........2520
49.5.....2554 light ejector swipe, stopped
Notes: 46-47.5 were nearly same hole. I was hoping for more velocity and I am wondering if a magnum primer might help.

Ramshot Big Game:
43........2368
43.5.....2393
44........2415
44.5.....2446
45........2450
45.5.....2487
46........2506 very light e-swipe
46.5......2554 flat primer, stopped
Notes: 44.5-46 were within .5".

IMR 4895:
40.5.....2419
41........2450
41.5.....2455
42........2492
42.5.....2501
43........2564
43.5.....2574 light e-swipe
44........2594 heavy e-swipe (I should have stopped at 43.5)
notes: none

RE17:
45........2506
45.5.....2520
46........2554
46.5.....2559
47........2569
47.5.....2594
48........2629
48.5.....2656
49........2677
49.5.....2710 sticky bolt lift, stopped
Notes: Surprised I got so high before pressure showed. I tested this powder and RE15 to show myself that it wasn't that much more velocity. I was wrong. Also, all shots measured 1.297" and after .308 subtraction is sub 1" for all shots fired. There were two sub groups that each looked like a bug hole (this further pissed me off).

RE15:
41.5.....1345
42........1381
42.5.....1402
43........1333
43.5.....1399
44........1444
44.5.....1476 heavy bolt lift, stopped
Notes: I can't explain the low velocity. I stopped several times and shot known velocity loads through the chrono and got normal readings. 41.5-44 were all very accurate.

I was hoping for better results from H4350, and Big Game. Like you guys I can't shoot a temp instable power here in Vegas. The RE17 results actually made me angry because of how fast and how accurate it was despite the different powder weights.

Hodgdon's reloading page shows a new powder called CFE 223. Has impressive velocity for a 200 grain projectile. Looks like more experimenting will come into play when that comes out.

Looks like its Varget at around 2500 FPS for me.
 
#76
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

I am impressed with your Varget results. I am getting very light ejector wipe at 43gr and you managed more powder and velocity from a slower twist. That's a good rifle!

Rich
 
#77
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LawnMM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am impressed with your gadget results. I am getting very light ejector wipe at 43gr and you managed more powder and velocity from a slower twist. That's a good rifle!

Rich</div></div>

You posted velocities at 43 grains from two different trips to the range. Once at 2521, and the other at 2479. So both times you were faster, if even only by 1 fps on the second.

But likely the reason that mine tolerated more powder is due to seating depth. The DTA have very generous magazines allowing much shallower seating and less of a compressed load. What is your depth at olgive and distance to lands?
 
#78
Re: 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

208s.jpg


47.5grs RL-17, BR-2 primer lapua brass. 2625fps
 
#79
Re: 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

Try doing these tests at 300. Then you will see the ladder that everyone talks about and notice the vertical change in the powder differences. My rl17 load on the .243 was a silly accurate load but if you added 10-20* temp change I would go o a different barrel node and it wouldn't be as nice
 
#80
Re: 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

I agree. You only get an indication of accuracy at 100 yards. Once you move out to 300 yards or meters then you really learn what the loads will do. I only do 2 and 4 shot testing now at 100 meters then shift to 300 meters. If I get good loads at 300 meters then they seem to hold the accuracy way out to 900 meters in my experience. Steve
 
#81
Re: 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

100_6328.jpg

100_6329.jpg

I got to head to the range today. It was more to sight in a friends' Christensen 300 RUM. Anyway, the first target, I shot the 208 and 42.8 Varget. Mind you, I was using some old WIN brass that I'm surprised actually held the CCI BR2 primers. I had the seating die set to I don't remember what, so I never moved it. I had to reload in a hurry and wasn't going to futz with it. The second group is the Berger 155 and 46.2 of Varget. The third is 46.5 of RL17 and the 208 AMAX. Next target is The H4350. I will try groups next time, but sufficeth to say, I probably won't be using this powder. It has to be compressed at mag length, and shows little difference in velocity from Varget. I shot 47.0, 47.5, and 48.0. Notice that there is little progression in velocity. In other words, wrong powder. I reached the point of diminishing returns. Accurate though, especially for three different powder charges! The next was the 185 Berger and the Power Pro 2000 MR with 46.5 gr, and the next was the same except for 46.8 grains. All told, none of these groups are bad, seeing how the average for all the groups is less that 1/2 MOA. All of these were shot at 100 yards, and the chrono was 10' from the muzzle.
 
#83
Re: 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

Yes, the Varget looks decent, and it is at my stopping point. The H4350 and RL17 cases were charged using an 18" drop tube. Messing around with the seating depth with the 208s and Varget with charges ranging from 42.5 to 42.8 should get at least 2500 fps with a low ES/SD, and a group that is a consistent 1/3 MOA. The best I've shot the 208s and RL 17 was just under .4 for three at 100 and speed was 2650, but the ES was about 40 and SD was around 20. Varget is about 125 fps slower, and about twice as consistent. A trade for sure.
 
#85
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Rich and others--

i've been playing with the 208 in 308 win a little also. varget was a bit finicky with my setup. i picked up a pound of IMR 4007ssc and like it fairly well. it is a fairly small kernel so compression seems to be limited.

my best results were at 45.0 grains 4007 which produced right at 2500 fps with low es numbers.

i increased the freebore in my barrel about .180 and have the bullet just touching the lands.

the lapua brass i have been using is very tired and i plan to continue testing when i get more brass prepped.

just another option.
 
#86
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

Try some Winchester brass Texas, more case capacity.

I inadvertently stumbled onto a lighter amount of neck tension on the last group I loaded up. It tightened up the groups, at 100yds anyway, quite a bit. I was working on a group in the high .3s until a guy at one of the local ranges cranked off with something loud right as I was breaking my shot and I pulled the last one.

I've ordered a new bushing to duplicate the neck tension. I also shot a local prairie dog match and set a new personal best with my latest load. I've since backed off from 43.0gr to 42.9gr as I was getting just a smidge of ejector wipe during the match. Also had a tight bolt, wouldn't call it sticky, but there was some resistance. Its all but gone a tenth of a grain lower and the ES was actually a few fps tighter at that charge weight anyway.

I've settled on 42.9gr of Varget yielding about 2470fps with an SD of 7 and ES of I think 16. Pretty good.

Rich
 
#87
208 amax 2000mr

Well I finaly made it to the range for the 2000mr test. Kinda scary with no data guidelines.. None of the groups really stood out and impressed me but looks like a couple are workable.

Rem 700 5r 24" .308
208 AMAX
Alliant 2000mr
Win brass
BR2
200yards wind 5-15 straight on
5 shot groups for each charge round robin
Good thing for "lawyer spec throat" coal 3.080!

44.5gn; 2450 fps 61es 30 sd too slow
45.0gn; 2477 43 17 slow but 1" vert,w/o flyer .42"
45.5gn 2506 42 15 speed good, 1" verticle
46.0gn 2529 32 13 .724 vert spread
46.5gn 2546 39 16 starting to show slight e-wipes
47.0gn 2570 33 12 groups start to open up on last 2
47.5gn 2584 54 23 but no scary presure signs

I will try the 46gn load at 1000yd match this weekend and see how it does. Do not have time for any fine tuning this week but this does show promise...

Joe
 
#89
208 amax 2000mr 1000yd test

man... kind of a good news bad news thing.
Good news my scores were the highest of the 3 1000yd matches I have shot but the fewest x-rings ever 1. Wind was 10-15 @ 90*-180* so it was a challenge. Am I getting better at wind calls or did this round do better at wind?
Bad news is EVERY round was a stiff bolt lift that I did not encounter during testing but, test rounds were FL sized and these were only neck sized. there were slight e-wipes on most heads. temp was maybe 5* warmer at match.
So, about all I can conclude is more testing required...
 
#93
Re: 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

Ok my brain hurts as I have been reading and reading on the 208. Reason is, I just picked up a 10fcp in the McM and the 1:10 at 24". I figured I am going to give the 208 a whirl along with the 155smk Palma that I had loaded up for the 5r I sold. My question is what are you guys using as a base for the Varget? Seems like 42 is a good starting point. I will be using some Fed brass as that is all I have on hand right now.

I have tried other powders, R15, 4064, and Varget has been hands down the most temp stable out of the bunch. That is why I am glad to see people are using it for the 208.
 
#94
Re: 208 Amax - Alternate Powder Thread

How much of a difference do you guys think it will make between me using the Fed Nato brass that I have and the Win brass you have been using to do the testing?
 
#96
Re: 208 Amax - Round 2 - Varget

My gun loves this bullet. The first shot was damn near dead center. After that, I got a woodie and I think it pushed the next 4 shots to the right.

Hornady 208 Amax @ 300 yards

42.9 gr. Alliant RE-15
Median velocity: 2464 fps
2.259" OAL to ogive
Savage 110FP w/24" barrel (1:10 twist)

Hornady208Amax300yds.jpg
 
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