223 Ackley Improved

[verdugo60]

Not closing on a go isn’t good enough. Most are set up .004” short of the parent case. There is a lot of factory cases and ammo that are shorter than that. A hard looking primer strike won’t always make the round go off if the case has enough room to run away from the impact of the firing pin

I think that's exactly what's happening. When it feels tight when I close it it usually goes off.

I'm wondering if I should send it back to the smith and have them shave a couple thousandths off the shoulder to get it to reliably shoot 223 factory. The only 223 AI I'll shoot will be my own reloads so no big deal if the chamber is a bit shorter to accommodate regular factory 223 right?

 

[Geno C.]

I think that's exactly what's happening. When it feels tight when I close it it usually goes off.

I'm wondering if I should send it back to the smith and have them shave a couple thousandths off the shoulder to get it to reliably shoot 223 factory. The only 223 AI I'll shoot will be my own reloads so no big deal if the chamber is a bit shorter to accommodate regular factory 223 right?

Correct. -.007” short of the parent GO gauge is where all mine are set. If you take a couple boxes of virgin brass and measure compared to a regular 223 GO gauge and you’ll know why. I want the shortest case to still be supported, and preferably still a crush for.

 

[verdugo60]

And in this case the parent gauge would be 223 Rem not 223AI correct?

 

[Geno C.]

And in this case the parent gauge would be 223 Rem not 223AI correct?

Correct

 

[verdugo60]

Confirmed with barrel maker and I'm going to send it in to them to shorten headspace a few thousandths.

Preferred barrel blanks has had great customer service despite this hiccup and the barrel is shooting phenomenal with 88's!

 

[DIBBS]

@verdugo60 why change headspace after shooting a group like that? Once your brass is fireformed, just adjust the sizing die accordingly. Aren't you able to jam the bullets into the lands with your FF loads? Or is the photo after changes were made?

 

[verdugo60]

@DIBBS, see conversation above. Basically I need shorter headspace for factory 223 ammo to reliably fire. I’m getting light strikes due to a bit too much headspace with my 223 loads. Obviously my formed ackley loads are shooting great but I want this gun to be able to shoot factory ammo reliably in a pinch. It won’t effect accuracy to shorten my headspace a bit. It will actually most likely improve accuracy of standard 223 because the case will be better supported. I’ll just bump my formed cases an extra few thou to chamber once I get the barrel back.

A 223 rem “go” gauge should not chamber in a properly headspaced Ackley chamber and on mine it does. Probably a tolerance stacking issue since they didn’t have my action on hand for the prefit.

 

[Subhunter2]

Anybody ran 69gr TMK in AI?
Wanted to see if anybody is using different powders than my standard 8208 and 4895,

 

[CaptNemo]

I'm contemplating a new barrel for my Tikka and reading this makes me want to consider setting the headspace with a standard .223 GO gauge.
It sounds like being on the tight side of .223 isn't a bad thing for shooting factory ammo to fireform.

 

[Geno C.]

I have yet to find a piece of brass or factory round that I can’t close the bolt on, with headspace .007” short of the 223 go

 

[verdugo60]

I'm contemplating a new barrel for my Tikka and reading this makes me want to consider setting the headspace with a standard .223 GO gauge.
It sounds like being on the tight side of .223 isn't a bad thing for shooting factory ammo to fireform.

Based off my experience so far I would agree. Even a few thou short of a 223 GO gauge seems ideal. Haven’t received mine back yet but will report when I do.

 

[RogueTanker]

Savage 10
1/7 Bartlein
22'' heavy palma
88gr ELD-M
25.6gr XBR 8208
approx 1/2 MOA, plenty good for short range matches and practice.
approx 2860- seems to be the velocity node.
This load is very very hot. Work up to it and don't expect good brass life.

 

[DIBBS]

Savage 10
1/7 Bartlein
22'' heavy palma
88gr ELD-M
25.6gr XBR 8208

This load is very very hot. Work up to it and don't expect good brass life.

How hot... like one or two and done with the primer pockets?

 

[Geno C.]

How hot... like one or two and done with the primer pockets?

2 would be my guess. That one is spicy

 

[RogueTanker]

2 would be my guess. That one is spicy

I'll let you know once I get a couple firings. I'd expect 2-3. Primers are cratered, but no ejection marks or gas from the primer pocket.

 

[Geno C.]

Which brass are you using? That some speed from that length barrel

 

[RogueTanker]

Which brass are you using? That some speed from that length barrel

Lapua, though I plan on switching to LC 16. I get better velocity and lower SD's oddly enough. Plus LC brass is dirt cheap. Yeah, I know it's screaming, but it shoots so well. I'll check the load on a day hotter than the 85* i tested it in to make sure it doesn't start piercing primers and what not.

 

[RogueTanker]

Went back and tried it again. Didn't get a chance to test the rounds in the heat but I did test the brass.

LC 16 is the clear winner. One of the best groups I've ever shot. 2868 fps, sd of 6. Lapua brass just isn't for this rifle I guess.

 

[IowaGeologist]

Posted this on another site, figured I'd try here too.

I now have enough formed brass to start diving into the 223AI loads using 75gr ELDs. I've went out once already and wasn't blown away by the results. Figured I'd get some more input from the folks on here to see if I might want to tweak things or start from scratch.

Some background info:
26" CBI 223AI barrel on Origin action
Standard 0.062 freebore
Formed LC brass
CCI 450s
75 ELD Base to Ogive - 1.938"
Temp was about 70 deg

I decided to try out Varget and CFE223 first. Went 25.5, 25.8, and 26.1 gr Varget. Went with 26.9, 27.2, and 27.5 gr CFE223 as well. Overall, most groups were under an inch. About the best I did was 0.5". STD/ES numbers were pretty bad for CFE (20s/50s avg) and slightly better for Varget (15s/30s avg) but not great. Velocity from my magnetospeed are below.

Varget:
25.5 - 2941 (best ES/STD
25.8 - 2989 (best group)
26.1 - 3034

CFE223:
26.9 - 2965
27.2 - 3003
27.5 - 3035

So I'd like to be a little faster. I've seen quite a few people with 26" barrels pushing 75ELDs and 80 SMKs/ELDs around 3100-3150. Good news, I have plenty of bullets and powder. I also had no pressure signs from anything shot. I went ahead and loaded up another 3 test groups for Varget, at 26.3, 26.5, and 26.8 gr. Only the 26.8 gr load had noticeable compression. Not sure if I'll put much more into CFE223 after the mediocre showing and the fact it's not temp stable.

I've also seen a few people having luck with H4895 in the AI with 75s, so might give that a shot if these next Varget loads don't turn out how I'd like them to. Anything else I might want to take a look at? Any experience with H4895/Varget/CFE223 loads and 75/80 class bullets you might want to share? Thanks for any input.

 

[Dale264]

Any experience with H4895/Varget/CFE223 loads and 75/80 class bullets you might want to share?

Add more powder!!!

 

[Kentucreed6]

H4895 will get more speed. I’ve been to 3100 with 80eld. 26 grains

 

[Seandradamus]

Went back and tried it again. Didn't get a chance to test the rounds in the heat but I did test the brass.

LC 16 is the clear winner. One of the best groups I've ever shot. 2868 fps, sd of 6. Lapua brass just isn't for this rifle I guess.

Mine is the same way With brass but if I reduce the load .2 for lapua it shoots the same.

 

[RogueTanker]

Mine is the same way With brass but if I reduce the load .2 for lapua it shoots the same.

Hmm, I might give it a shot. Or five.

 

[outlawkyote]

Ive Got several 223ai bolt rifles, I love the cartridge
Normally I use R15 with the heavy bullets but decided to give Varget a try and see if I could come up with a "common" load that all four rifles would shoot well. Then I discovered that Varget is in very low supply right now so, Ill probably have to start over using R15. But anyhow, I thought 25.6-25.8 seem to shoot fairly well in all four rifles. The 30" shillen barrel hit max pressure before the others likely since its the newest barrel with only about 75 rounds through it.
All these barrels were cut with the same reamer from JGs with a .170FB. All barrels were headspaced with the same gauge and I can interchange brass from one to the other. All the brass is Starline and neck turned just enough to clean up about 90 percent. All the ammo was loaded at one sitting. This is my 200yd target and was using a lab radar for velocities
Im not a big Varget fan but had a bunch left over from my 6BR so was using it to find a "common" load. R15 is actually faster and more accurate in my opinion.

I dont know how to rotate the picture?

 

[Moose]

I use RL-15 in my 223AI with 75gr Amax and it works out very nice for me.

 

[outlawkyote]

I use RL-15 in my 223AI with 75gr Amax and it works out very nice for me.

I use it with the 77gr TMKs too. Good Velocity and good accuracy. This is with a 26" barrel

 

[PAYDIRT]

Ive Got several 223ai bolt rifles, I love the cartridge
Normally I use R15 with the heavy bullets but decided to give Varget a try and see if I could come up with a "common" load that all four rifles would shoot well. Then I discovered that Varget is in very low supply right now so, Ill probably have to start over using R15. But anyhow, I thought 25.6-25.8 seem to shoot fairly well in all four rifles. The 30" shillen barrel hit max pressure before the others likely since its the newest barrel with only about 75 rounds through it.
All these barrels were cut with the same reamer from JGs with a .170FB. All barrels were headspaced with the same gauge and I can interchange brass from one to the other. All the brass is Starline and neck turned just enough to clean up about 90 percent. All the ammo was loaded at one sitting. This is my 200yd target and was using a lab radar for velocities
Im not a big Varget fan but had a bunch left over from my 6BR so was using it to find a "common" load. R15 is actually faster and more accurate in my opinion.

I dont know how to rotate the picture?

 

[outlawkyote]

Thank You sir.

 

[PAYDIRT]

I use it with the 77gr TMKs too. Good Velocity and good accuracy. This is with a 26" barrel

 

[PAYDIRT]

No more lol

 

[outlawkyote]

Has anyone tried H414 with the very heavy bullets? Im getting pretty good velocities and decent accuracy at 300yds

 

[Subhunter2]

nice little hunting load

62gr Barrnes Tipped TSX
25.8 gr h 4895
Lapua formed brass
BR4 primer
20” proof 1/8 twist barrel
3,145 FPS
on magnetospeed
Perfect for small deer and pigs this season

 

[PracticalTactical]

I'm running a straight 223 with a long throat... 1 in 7 twist.
Loading 88 grain ELDs seated to 2.580" OAL

I'm getting 2800 FPS with cases sized with a small base die, 2850 with regular sizing dies and 2900 + with fire formed brass that was neck sized only.

Feeding from modified Accurate Mags that will handle up to 2.630" in current configuration.

Accuracy is pretty much 1/2 MOA.

Using 25.5 grains of varget with fire formed brass, but back off a grain for full length resized.

The load is aggressive sure, but still safe. I never pop any primers or get stiff bolt lift. The corners of the primers are still rounded.

 

[outlawkyote]

Thats Smokin for a 223 straight
Whats your secret?

 

[PracticalTactical]

Thats Smokin for a 223 straight
Whats your secret?

Its really just a long seating depth. The longer the bullet sits forward in the case, the greater the powder capacity is.

I shot some video last weekend while testing the load in 85 degree heat, but unfortunately the microphone was on mute, so that kinda sucks. Otherwise I could post a video for you.

If you go to page 16 here's a PDF publication from the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association talking about 90 grainers at similar speeds from back in 2008... So what I'm doing is nothing new. Doing it in a repeater is fresh.

http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Winter%20Spring%202008%20Edition.pdf

 

[outlawkyote]

Whats Your Freebore? Im seating my 88s at 2.64 and single loading them.
Those 88s sure do sail nice but I start loosing MOA after 1520 yds. Im hoping the 95s might get me a till further.

 

[outlawkyote]

I took 10 shots and only hit 18" steel 8 times
I was a little tired after mowing the grass around our range at every steel plate out to 1810. I need to get out and try it again but with the 95s

 

[PracticalTactical]

Whats Your Freebore? Im seating my 88s at 2.64 and single loading them.
Those 88s sure do sail nice but I start loosing MOA after 1520 yds. Im hoping the 95s might get me a till further.

I don't know what the freebore is. The pipe fitter had a chambering reamer and a throating reamer. All we did was run the throating reamer in until we hit the seating depth I was after.

The goal was to have the base of the bearing surface with the 88s just forward of the neck to shoulder junction.

That's awesome BTW that you're working steel out that far. Most guys assume that's unrealistic for a small caliber. Where I shoot we have 760 yards max, so past that its a rare occasion to test performance.

It also depends on what the farmer plants. Soy beans are fine but corn is so tall it hides our targets.

 

[outlawkyote]

The guy I shoot with designed the range. We set the benches up on one side of a long creek bottom and shoot down the length of the creek to the opposite side and onto the hills that are formed by the water sheds.
Weve been shooting together for the past couple years and he's been kicking my butt lately.
This time of year its prairie dog season so we dont get out there to shoot the range much right now which actually works out for the rancher since he supposedly has 1500head of yearlings grazing it right now.
Our ultimate goal is 1810 with the 22 creed (maybe the 223AI too) but, Weve already been there with the big boomers. If that gets too easy we'll have to find a different location to stretch it out further since the creek makes a turn and our range is done.
I was told, (since I dont spend much time on the computer) that some boys were having good success with the 224 Valkyrie at 2100+. Why isnt the 223AI shooting those distances? What does the Valkyrie have that the 223AI doesnt?

 

[PracticalTactical]

I was told, (since I dont spend much time on the computer) that some boys were having good success with the 224 Valkyrie at 2100+. Why isnt the 223AI shooting those distances? What does the Valkyrie have that the 223AI doesnt?

I suspect that if you had a 224 Valkyrie, you would be using it at those distances. Most guys... myself included have no access to anywhere to shoot that far, so its just not an option.

 

[outlawkyote]

4 shots to get my dope and 3 to hit
Been trying r16 a little because its so consistant but just cant get enough powder in the case to get my velicity up.

 

[DIBBS]

Any new intel, particularly with 75's ELDM's and H4895?

My COL with same is 2.43 but at 25 grains and CCI 400's I am getting pretty good primer flattening and once in a while sticky extraction out of a 700 Rem unbushed bolt and 7 twist 22"Benchmark barrel as I recall. Magnetospeed indicates velocity of 2980 but a ES of 35 IIRC. Load shoots lights out, but I believe I am going to have to back off a bit for extended case life. Have also experimented with 8208 but velocity is about 100 fps less when pressure signs start to show. My rifle is throated a little shorter than some of the posters here.

 

[Huckleberry75]

Any new intel, particularly with 75's ELDM's and H4895?

My COL with same is 2.43 but at 25 grains and CCI 400's I am getting pretty good primer flattening and once in a while sticky extraction out of a 700 Rem unbushed bolt and 7 twist 22"Benchmark barrel as I recall. Magnetospeed indicates velocity of 2980 but a ES of 35 IIRC. Load shoots lights out, but I believe I am going to have to back off a bit for extended case life. Have also experimented with 8208 but velocity is about 100 fps less when pressure signs start to show. My rifle is throated a little shorter than some of the posters here.

Bush your firing pin will help with cratering along with try some CCI-450's. They tend to have a thicker cup and handle a little more pressure.

 

[outlawkyote]

Any new intel, particularly with 75's ELDM's and H4895?

My COL with same is 2.43 but at 25 grains and CCI 400's I am getting pretty good primer flattening and once in a while sticky extraction out of a 700 Rem unbushed bolt and 7 twist 22"Benchmark barrel as I recall. Magnetospeed indicates velocity of 2980 but a ES of 35 IIRC. Load shoots lights out, but I believe I am going to have to back off a bit for extended case life. Have also experimented with 8208 but velocity is about 100 fps less when pressure signs start to show. My rifle is throated a little shorter than some of the posters here.

I ve had poor results with H4895 but havent tried it with 75gr elds.
When I was trying it with 88gr elds I hit pressure way sooner than expected and popped primers. Even Quickloads said I should have expected higher velocities and higher loads. I Had to pull bullets on two hotter loads that should have been safe.
However, 4895 works pretty good with 55gr bullets.
R15 will safely get 75gr elds to 3080fps with a 26" barrel and 3210fps with a 30" barrel.

 

[Huckleberry75]

H4895 and 75eldm do well together

 

[outlawkyote]

made it to 26gr H4895 with 77gr TMKs (dont have any 75gr elds right now) before popping a primer,
barrel is 26" 7.5t criterion and Im using starline brass. Labradar batteries were dead when I got there so couldnt get velocities.
Looks like the accuracy node is down around 24.2gr
If your over pressure at 25gr you might check for a carbon ring?
I doubt bushing the bolt is the problem since Im using a factory savage bolt head that blanks (pierces) primers except CCI450s and Wolf Mag primers.
I still prefer R15 though

 

[Moose]

I also prefer R15 in my 223AI.

 

[Dschapp44]

I’m running a 28 inch Bartlein, 5R, 7 twist and not pushing it to fast with lapua 1x fired brass

 

[Dschapp44]

Went and tried a few ladders with all of the different primers. CCI 400 pierced on the lowest charge so no data but here is the rest

 

[outlawkyote]

Went and tried a few ladders with all of the different primers. CCI 400 pierced on the lowest charge so no data but here is the rest

Wondering if youve tried H414 with those 95s?