.223 precision build questions. Help me understand.

Boogaloo

Boogaloo

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Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 1, 2012
218
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Los Angeles Kalifornia
#1
I am looking to start a build based on a .223 primarily because I have a lot of reloading components for .223/5.56 and am a bit tired of shooting AR's at this point.

I would like to know what you know about the .223 as a medium range precision target platform and which direction I should go. I have read a bit about the 223 AI and just recently stumbled across the 224 AR Magnum here: 224 AR

It looks like the 224 AR Mag is out because it is obviously based on the 6.5 Grendel which is different enough to make it not as affordable for me, but still an interesting cartridge none the less.

223 AI looks interesting because I would really only need dies and then to fire form a bunch of brass to get there. from what I understand, you net about 2.5 additional grains of powder weight going to the 223 AI so that could be a good thing right?

I know this is not going to be a 1000 yard rifle, and I am not trying to build a 1000 yard rifle necessarily, but rather a more economical platform that will take me accurately out to 600 yards or so and perhaps be a nice light tactical rig that I can carry around up on our property to slay the occasional hog.

Any of you guys have precision .223's that might want to share some data with me regarding which cartridge, chamber, barrel length and set up you went with and why? Also, favorite bullets for your particular toy? Berger 80 VLD? 90 VLD? etc?
 
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#2
You can buy a tikka or a 700 in 223 and have a decent 600 yard rifle. To shoot those 80s or 90s I'm pretty sure you want a 6.5 or 7 twist.

In my tikka witch has a 8 twist, I use the 69 and 77smk with pretty good results.

I'm you will get a lot of good posts here.

Good luck!
 
#3
223AI.

Seriously.

I drank the koolaid last year and built one with a 22" 1:7 barrel and its GREAT. Very inexpensive to shoot with no recoil and ballistics that surpass the 308/175SMK combo. I feed mine a steady diet of 80gr A-Max at ~2900fps, but might play with some 90gr VLDs if they ever come back in stock anywhere.

That said - any factory 1:9 223 (Rem 700 Tactical or Savage) will work great with 75gr HPBT or 77gr SMK/CCs. I had a Savage 12FV that I made easy hits on 8" steel out to 650 with Hornady 75gr Steel Match factory ammo.
 
#4
I even ran 68gr Hornady BTHP's at about 2775 fps. outta my Rem 700 tactical at 600 yards (first time out past 200) and did pretty well I would say. Although I have heard that the 75's are hit and miss with it's 1-9 twist.
 
#5
BoilerUP said:
223AI.

Seriously.

I drank the koolaid last year and built one with a 22" 1:7 barrel and its GREAT. Very inexpensive to shoot with no recoil and ballistics that surpass the 308/175SMK combo. I feed mine a steady diet of 80gr A-Max at ~2900fps, but might play with some 90gr VLDs if they ever come back in stock anywhere.

That said - any factory 1:9 223 (Rem 700 Tactical or Savage) will work great with 75gr HPBT or 77gr SMK/CCs. I had a Savage 12FV that I made easy hits on 8" steel out to 650 with Hornady 75gr Steel Match factory ammo.
Click to expand...

All great replies fellas! Thanks!

@ BoilerUp specifically: How difficult was it for you to churn out 223 AI brass from factory 223 brass? Do/can you use milsurp brass like the Lake City or do you stay with new virgin brass to start with? I have a lot of once fired L.C. 556 brass and would love to use some of it to convert to AI should I decide to go that way.

@ BoilerUp (again) Which barrel maker did you go with to get a 1:7 twist? I am looking at Brux and the like and I am only seeing 1:8 twist offerings...

Thanks guys, much appreciated.
 
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#6
I am not sure about the 223Ai as i never went that route...I just stayed with the good ole fashioned 223.
DSCN03112.jpg

Mark Gordon of Short Action Customs built my 223 with a 18" 1:8 twist Bartlein barrel. I shoot 77 Sierra BTHP with 25grains of AA 2460. It shoots at 2700fps and is awesome to shoot. I have taken it out to 650 yards and was easily hitting a 10" plate.

I have since taken off the AAC M4/2000 suppressor and had Mark re-thread it for a 5/8 x 24 so I could run my Thunderbeast on it...long story but the AAC just didn't work very well on a precision rifle.
 
#7
223ai brass is easy to form from once fired LC brass. I anneal the cases (easy to do) and then load a near max charge and go target practice. What you get in the end is formed 223ai brass. Do this for about 300-500 rounds and if you run loads that aren't screaming you have brass for your entire barrel life. My opinion is that if you are going with a custom barrel/build route, and you are not going to be losing brass it is worth doing the ai. If you are starting with a factory gun with a factory tube it is not worth it and you should just run the parent cartridge. In a situation where I am not likely to recover my brass(hunting in weeds, ect.) I use my 6x45 as it needs no fireforming.
 
#8
Gregg Young (aka "Bugholes") from Southern Precision Rifles was able to special order a Brux 1/7 with a Rem Varmint contour for me; only took about 10 weeks to get it. Jared from APA is putting it on my Surgeon 591/R right now.

I'm too lazy to do the AI thing; I like to just mount up the scope and go. But, if you're interested in doing that, I would go with a longer barrel, say 22", to get the most velocity you can.

BTW, I think SSC is selling a trued Rem 700 receiver with a 223 bolt in the firearms for sale section. That would be a good start on a custom build. Perhaps you could have Russel from SSC fit a barrel up to it and drop it in either a HS precision or AICS stock, whatever suits your budget.
 
#9
What about the 223 wild, for 223 and 556 ammunition which has turned into a big following for AR-15 rebuilds or new builds. I just built my sons for his college graduation but it was just a straight up Remington 700 varmint in 223 that I put in a AICS. Had him making shots out to 500 yards on a 18 inch steel target with a 55 grain Hornady VMAX it was his first day of being exposed to the mil system.
 
#10
Boogaloo said:
All great replies fellas! Thanks!

@ BoilerUp specifically: How difficult was it for you to churn out 223 AI brass from factory 223 brass? Do/can you use milsurp brass like the Lake City or do you stay with new virgin brass to start with? I have a lot of once fired L.C. 556 brass and would love to use some of it to convert to AI should I decide to go that way.

@ BoilerUp (again) Which barrel maker did you go with to get a 1:7 twist? I am looking at Brux and the like and I am only seeing 1:8 twist offerings...
Click to expand...

My rifle is a Savage, and the barrel is a Criterion prefit (button rifle division of Krieger) from Northland Shooters Supply.

As for forming AI brass...I used virgin Nosler brass but its pretty easy - FL size, load near max, go shoot, you now have AI brass. And, you'll trim it pretty much never.
 
#14
I want 223ai after 1500rnds in my rem tactical....with the same barrel. I had SSC true it, thread it, and coat it...LOVE IT. The AI brass is how it should have always been. Less work, more power, win/win.

I've fire formed 10x's fired LC, virgin lapua and win, and once fired lapua. Haven't lost a single case to split necks.

I'm going to rebarrel with a 1:8 and run 80's out far....but for now I'm cooking 52gr JLK ld's with RL10x and WC844

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
 
#15
Love my .22 centerfires. I have a 223ai, and a straight 223, and I much prefer my straight .223...mostly because I hate fireforming. If a short barrel is what you're after, then the 223ai makes sense...otherwise I'd stick with a standard 223. I am sending 82 bergers, pointed, at 2900 out of my 223, and it hammers. I am hoping to get 4-5k out of the barrel before accuracy starts to drop off. I am at 2k now, and it shots as tight as it did when I had it built. It's a win/win.
 
#16
223ai said:
Love my .22 centerfires. I have a 223ai, and a straight 223, and I much prefer my straight .223...mostly because I hate fireforming. If a short barrel is what you're after, then the 223ai makes sense...otherwise I'd stick with a standard 223. I am sending 82 bergers, pointed, at 2900 out of my 223, and it hammers. I am hoping to get 4-5k out of the barrel before accuracy starts to drop off. I am at 2k now, and it shots as tight as it did when I had it built. It's a win/win.
Click to expand...

How long is your 223 barrel?
 
#17
I'll chime in here with a budget build option that's showing me 1/2 moa at 100yds. Mine started out as a rem700 sps straight off the shelf from a big-box store. 20" 1:9 factory barrel. I went with a B&C stock, jewel trigger, and a badger bolt knob. I was too cheap/impatient to get the barrel threaded so I went with a clamp-on brake. Looks like it belongs on a .50, but it does the job very nicely. Talk about zero recoil! Holy smooth firing cycle! TPS rings on a NF 20moa base, and a weaver ffp mil/mil 3-15. Good-to-go!

3027f54c-eae9-4399-9e13-2880e1206ba8_zps843a35c7.jpg


Unfortunately, my 1:9 barrel doesn't like anything heavier than 69g's. But it does shoots great with 69g SMK FGMM @2815fps. 3 @ 100yds:

IMG_1932_zps420e3f40.jpg


I've had decent luck hitting small targets out to 600yds, but its definitely sensitive to the wind. No regrets with this rig except for the 1:9. Next barrel will be a 1:7 or 1:8 so I can shoot something heavier. Otherwise, considering the relatively low cost, I couldn't be happier with this set-up.

IMG_1978_zps5f429755.jpg
 
#19
your user name is 223ai...and you prefer 223.....lol

and why do people hate fire forming?!?!? It's absolutely 0% added work! Load a stiff load in regular brass and shoot it.... Hell, most guys find that their fireform loads are super accurate as well... I mean you seriously give NOTHING up to go AI. Less continual brass prep, run under max and neck size...and your brass will out last your barrel!
 
#20
GSRswapandslow said:
and why do people hate fire forming?!?!? It's absolutely 0% added work! Load a stiff load in regular brass and shoot it.... Hell, most guys find that their fireform loads are super accurate as well... I mean you seriously give NOTHING up to go AI. Less continual brass prep, run under max and neck size...and your brass will out last your barrel!
Click to expand...

Except that you do give up something to go AI...namely your time (fireforming, and then load development on formed brass) and your barrel life, and it is extra work.

Continual brass prep is a non-issue as I run a Giraud trimmer. Neck sizing won't ever happen on a gun that I intend to use in the field, and I lose brass constantly at matches, so all that prep goes out the window in the field. I have two 223ai's, and I like them for what they are, but the performance difference comparative to a straight 223 set-up properly, FOR ME, is not worth the hassle. At 22", via Varget, I am sending 80gr JLK's at 2950 with LC formed 223AI cases....at 27", via 8208xbr, I am sending 82 Bergers at 2905 with standard LC 2011 cases. To me, the extra juice isn't worth the squeeze.
 
#22
I built myself a nice 223 a couple of years ago, using a new M700 action from Brownells that I trued. Chambered a 26" Krieger sendero contour, 1:7.7tw with a PTG 223 Match reamer, plopped it into Devcon in a B&C stock inletted for B-O M5 BM, and proceeded to enjoy shooting it.

Friend talked me out of that rifle at our club's gun show a year ago, so I used the money to build another one, only in 223 AI, and using a 1:7tw Krieger. This one went into a McM A5 (70% black/30% med gray marble finish), also inletted for M5 BM. Jewell HVR trigger, EGW 20 MOA sloped base, Vortex 6-24x50 Viper PST in TPS TSR rings finished it off. It's more of a happy coincidence than good planning, but the PTG 223 AI reamer Dave ground for me puts either Berger 90 LRBT or VLD at .020" jump when they're seated to AICS magazine length, and they shoot great at 2830fps.

I've been fireforming whatever brass was handy in the loading room, including LC, WW, R-P, & IMI. Haven't lost a single case to neck or shoulder split yet, even though some of the LC stuff had been fired several times. My favorite method of fireforming? Load something close to max with anything from H75AMax to JLK80VLD and shoot them in steel matches out to 600yds. Beyond that, I'll run the Berger 90s in formed cases.

Been shooting precision rifle matches at a semi-local ranch - they've got a stage set up with 16"x18" plates from 300 to 1400yds, spaced at 100yd increments. Two shots at each distance, no sighters, but hit value increasing with distance. 1st time out with the 223 AI, I got all my hits out to 800yds, then got blown off the right side with the 1st shot at 900, and sucked back off the left side with the 2nd. Got both hits at 1000, but missed all four at 1100 & 1200 (the 90s go transonic at 1250 according to Litz's PMS). Then got one hit each at 1300 & 1400. What a hoot - the guy next to me was shooting his 308 with H208 AMaxes, and couldn't believe a 223 was capable of getting hits at 1400.

Don't know how much extra velocity I'm getting out of the AI compared to a std 223, but don't really care - I don't have to trim, and it shoots great. What more could you ask for? (how about loading component availability?)
 
#23
I love my 223 bolt!
Cheap to shoot, no recoil, accurate as hell, and did I mention cheap to shoot? :)
I normally prefer the old school BDL bottom metal, but in this case the Remington feeds like crap so I am upgrading to the Stiller DBM/AI mags.
Out to 600 yards the 223 is da bomb.

Mine is an an 8 twist and to my delight shoots my favorite gopher bullet...The 52 grain (CHEAP) Speer.
25.6 grains of W748 makes sub 5/8" holes at 200 yards giving me all I could ever want from a mid range gopher rifle.
The 75 Amax or 77SMK makes a great 600+ yard shooter.

Of all my rifles I do believe this to be my favorite....Its kind of like a 22rimfire...only accurate....and with some decent range
 
#24
Thanks for all of the great replies fellas.

@ flatland1 - That is a great story bud, I look forward to having that much fun with a .223 Bottom line is it should cost about half as much to shoot the same amount as my .308's cost which can only be a good thing right?

To everyone else.... Again, Thank you for the awesome replies. My mind is pretty well set on going AI and I was lucky enough to find a couple of barrels online to get the process started. I just secured a brand new low end Remington 700 that I will pull the action and barrel from. I am jumping in on Long Rifles group buy and should have this thing up and running in a month or so at the most I hope.

The build will be: Long Rifles trued action, Brux 1:7 Remington Varmint contour @ 24" (may go 26"), Jewel or Timney trigger, and rest is all in a new McMillan A5 w/Stiller DBM that I recently scored from another member here on the Hide. I am excited about this build and will definitely keep you guys posted with how it all turns out.
 
#25
Having owned a number of 223ai's, I would stronlgy urge you to reconsider your barrel length. A 22" 223AI will handle better, and gives up almost nothing over the longer tubes.

Since everyone else is showing their rifles, here's my most recent one. Similar to 223ai's reasoning, I opted for a straight 223 for this one.
Borden Alpine action
Rock Creek 1:8 Twist @ 21"
Jewel
PTG Oberndorff bottom metal
Leupold VX-3 4.5-14x40 LR with M1 elevation knob in Talley lows
McMillan Hunters Edge which I repainted in a flat black w/ grey and OD speckle

DSC_0022_zps78891f1f.jpg
 
#26
Thank you so much for this thread! I've been going back and forth on .308 vs. some hot-rod 6mm, but never though about .223. It makes sense. though. . .
 
#27
223ai said:
Except that you do give up something to go AI...namely your time (fireforming, and then load development on formed brass) and your barrel life, and it is extra work.

Continual brass prep is a non-issue as I run a Giraud trimmer. Neck sizing won't ever happen on a gun that I intend to use in the field, and I lose brass constantly at matches, so all that prep goes out the window in the field. I have two 223ai's, and I like them for what they are, but the performance difference comparative to a straight 223 set-up properly, FOR ME, is not worth the hassle. At 22", via Varget, I am sending 80gr JLK's at 2950 with LC formed 223AI cases....at 27", via 8208xbr, I am sending 82 Bergers at 2905 with standard LC 2011 cases. To me, the extra juice isn't worth the squeeze.
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion that AI isn't your thing, but I think you misrepresent the time and work requirements.

You're right you must spend some time cooking up a non-AI load. You'll do that with a non-ai chamber.

Hell, if you're happy with it that way, you can ONLY run non ai and sell the FFd brass.

The extra work is only in cooking up a second load for FFd brass.

If it were a wildcat that required dedicated FFing before it was useable, requiring a dedicated FFing barrel or wearing out a match barrel solely for the purpose of attaining brass, I'd wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments...but its not. If it were a hot rod like a 6.5RSAUM improved, and the barrel was only going to last 500-750 rounds, I'd agree with you...but its not.

You've got a plain Jane 223 when you want and a little extra spice when you prefer.
 
#28
I shoot a M10 Savage, all stock w/a 1/9" twist, 24" bbl, and when I use a 69g sierra BTHP bullet I have no issues hitting the 700 yard steel, heck I have no problem popping it with my 50g vmax p-dog load.
No need to go through the expense of a custom when a standard OTC gun will do the trick IMO.
A stock howa/remington/Savage/tikka will do what you want, unless you have a need for a non standard caliber, then you could have a new bbl made up of course.
 
#30
Awesome information guys. I really appreciate the participation here. Some great opinions on both sides of the fence to be sure.

One of the important things I see in the AI variant is the added 2+ grains of case capacity, which based on my QuickLoad work ups will deliver roughly 120 fps more velocity using the powders I have in hand to start this process with. I also have a few different bullets to start playing with, but the goal will be to see what I can get out of the 90 grainers at some point.

Here is a great link that outlines the 223/223-AI philosophy and there is some great info here that I found interesting, including the use of pistol powder and corn meal to fire form cases!

223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide within AccurateShooter.com

One thing I will say is that there has been a complete and total run on .224 barrels recently, and i'm not talking about AR15 barrels either. Every aftermarket barrel maker I called yesterday said that the .224 market is in full tilt boogie right now. The guys are Bartlein said it was weird, but that they are seeing a huge increase in orders for .224 barrels. Just food for thought.... You guys may want to get your orders in if this has even been a remote pipe dream for you.
 
#31
JSTARSZ said:
I have since taken off the AAC M4/2000 suppressor and had Mark re-thread it for a 5/8 x 24 so I could run my Thunderbeast on it...long story but the AAC just didn't work very well on a precision rifle.
Click to expand...

Bumping an old thread, but saw this. I'm about to build a 223 / 223AI and am planning to run an M4-2000. What problems did you have, I'm assuming accuracy issues? How well did the suppressor fit the mount, and were you using a blackout, brakeout, or brake? I do have an SAS with TOMB mount I can use if the AAC doesn't work.
 
#32
Red_SC said:
Bumping an old thread, but saw this. I'm about to build a 223 / 223AI and am planning to run an M4-2000. What problems did you have, I'm assuming accuracy issues? How well did the suppressor fit the mount, and were you using a blackout, brakeout, or brake? I do have an SAS with TOMB mount I can use if the AAC doesn't work.
Click to expand...
the 51T was one major problem as it would back off while firing but that can be fixed. The major issue was unpredictable flyers in groups. I could never get predictable groups with suppressor on vice off. Once I went to a direct thread on all the issues went away. I run the AAC on a SBR as accuracy is not as much of an issue. I couldn't ever be talked into a QD mount again. Too much of risk for a can that I am married to for life.
 
#34
Just took possesion of a Win70 Coyote, the older style with the non thumbhole laminated stock.
I mounted a Weaver KT15 15X scope for now, to see how it shoots. The bedding job didn't inspire a lot of confidence, but I'm no expert.
Been lying awake at night thinking about a scope, not wanting to spend a lot, and considering one of the cloes out Vortex Vipers.

Might have it threaded for a SureFire adapter to run a socom suppresor.

Should be fun to shoot.

Bob
 
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