Im building a new 223 rem match. It's mostly a trainer but we have an affinity for our smaller cartridges with the guys who shot at the same events as me. With that we don't currently have a tac class so I'm not limited by those restrictions. I went with a28 inch barrel to mimic my 6 xc combo I run. With that I'm looking for what guys have seen with 80 gr bullets and above. There's not much info on 88 elds or real world results with the different 90s.
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PRS Talk 223 prs build
- Thread starter Toughestsoldier
- Start date
I run 80g SMKs at about 2900+ in my 26" 223. Good enough on most days. ?
I ran 80 SMKs vs another better BC bullet because I have a ton of them. No problem loading long in an AICS mag.
I shoot everything up to the 95g SMKs, but not for PRS. You're not going to mag feed anything bigger than a 80g.
I ran 80 SMKs vs another better BC bullet because I have a ton of them. No problem loading long in an AICS mag.
I shoot everything up to the 95g SMKs, but not for PRS. You're not going to mag feed anything bigger than a 80g.
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According to the the Sierra book app I can run 90s with room to spare in my aics mags
You sure can. And you can also mag feed a 95g SMK. But the velocity loss you'll experience won't make it worth it in either drop or windage. Compare the numbers for the ranges you plan to use it at and see what's worth it to you. I wouldn't believe the Sierra/Hodgdon load length for the 90s. Did you happen to notice that list the 90s COAL shorter than the 80s?
In my experience, 80s (or roughly that length/ogive/etc) give the best results when mag feeding. Now in F-Class I single loaded and could load 90s and 95s longer than a 308 and still pack a ton of powder behind them to get good velocity.
80s is where it's at in 223rem. I run my 80 Amax at 2.51 and mags go out to 2.55... save the 90s for 22br, 220TB, 22cr, 224V....
I'm running 88 grain Hornady ELD Match at 2900 FPS and I couldn't be more pleased with the results.
Keep in mind that its throated to jam the lands in my rifle at 2.638" and I had to modify AccurateMags to feed them that long, but that wasn't hard to do. I filled the gap between the insert ribs with JB weld and then milled off that back rib to extend the length. Of course I also removed that useless little lip in the front of the inserts as well.
27.5 MOA drop at 1000 yards with 6.6 MOA for 10 MPH wind. That's close to what the slower 6s will do.
80s at 3000 FPS have been my fav for 20 years or more and they are a little more accurate but the BC just doesn't do it and there's more drop and wind than the 88s. The recoil difference is negligible.
Keep in mind that its throated to jam the lands in my rifle at 2.638" and I had to modify AccurateMags to feed them that long, but that wasn't hard to do. I filled the gap between the insert ribs with JB weld and then milled off that back rib to extend the length. Of course I also removed that useless little lip in the front of the inserts as well.
27.5 MOA drop at 1000 yards with 6.6 MOA for 10 MPH wind. That's close to what the slower 6s will do.
80s at 3000 FPS have been my fav for 20 years or more and they are a little more accurate but the BC just doesn't do it and there's more drop and wind than the 88s. The recoil difference is negligible.
88's @ 2900 out of a 223rem? What are you getting 1 shot out of your brass.... Lapua brass with 80 Amax's out of 6 different 223rem barrels (Bartlein, Kreiger, Mullerworks, Shilen and Criterion) all had pressure @ 2950 with 80's How are you running 88's @ 2900 without trashing brass?
Thats more than a 224V chambered for long heavies with .110 freebore with more case capacity than 223rem is running in a 26" bolt gun.... Your defying physics over there. We should take note.
I don't know what the free bore is actually. I just ran the throating tool in until I got the seating depth I was after.
Like I stated earlier, I'm touching the lands with 2.638 OAL with the 88s.
What was your OAL with the 80s? Must have been quite a bit shorter. Most guys are closer to 2.500" OAL. My old F Class rifle jammed with the 80 SMK around 2.555".
I've been somewhat focused on runout problems with the lighter 75s since they jam the lands only about half way into the neck and then when feeding from a mag it might get knocked off kilter when it hits the feed ramp, but single feed by hand, they can still shoot well. That is not a problem with the 80 SMK or 88 ELD because they both seat well into the neck.
I'm not saying it isn't an aggressive load, but I don't think its unsafe either.
Lapua brass is heavy and that will slow you down a bit.
Winchester cases are the lightest I know of and are good to max out velocity (especially if fire formed and neck resized) at the same time, for PRS I like to buy once fired IVI or Lake City brass 3,000 at a time, then do a full process resize with annealing, then weight sort into closest weight into 100 round lots. So brass life is of little concern after 2-3 firings. The 3,000 once fired cases costs about the same as 300 new cases and I see little practical performance difference for the PRS game. F-Class is much less fault tolerant in terms of load consistency, so I use new premium brass for that.
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I know a guy here in Utah getting 2950 with 88s out of a 223 without problem but I think it's because of elevation and use of CFE223...
Taking some measurements here with 88's at your mentioned COAL of 2.638 that puts the boattail/bearing surface junctino right at the case neck/shoulder junction so I see that working but not in any typical 223rem chamber. You have to be running a shit ton of freebore and unless major mods to mags like you mentioned, your single loading them.
Has to be elevation and maybe hes running a ton of freebore like PracticalTactical. CFE223 is what my testing was with as well in a rem match chamber that has a little more freebore and a little tighter neck then 223 Wylde. But not the amount of freebore being mentioned.
Now the 224V with 88's, I have a custom reamer with .110 freebore to get the most out of that round and I got up to 2950 with CFE223, but brass wasnt lasting at those speeds. 223rem has less case capacity..
I seated mine wayyy out when I had my 223 but all I did was Dremel the front polymer out if that insert. The rest of the modification seems very unnecessary.
After ~2850fps at max mag length in a custom freebore chamber I start popping some primers with crimped brass in hot weather with a 29.5 inch barrel. 2900+ is not realistic in a 223 with 88s IMO. That's the exception not the rule and is very likely not going in a magazine.
Well without milling out the back rib I could only get to 2.540" OAL and that would limit my velocity with heavy bullets.
By milling out most of that rib, I increased my OAL to 2.625 at the moment and I could mill away more if I want to, so I could chase throat erosion.
So by milling the back rib, I effectively increased my case capacity by 0.224 diameter over a distance of 0.085 which probably equates to another grain or two of powder without increasing pressure.
Granted, you wont need the extra length if you're throated for 75 grain ELDs with a 223 Wild chamber or something along those lines.
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I shoot 85gr Nosler RDF's at 2935fps loaded at 2.495 and using Reloader 15. I use LC brass and recycle it after 1x firing. This load did blow primers in a water test, so its over max but accurate and hit plates at 1250 yards
With anything over those restrictions, we must register as open class.
Just because its a 223 does not mean that you are required to shoot tactical division.
It's just that within the tactical division we cannot get creative.
In all honesty, its hard to beat the 75 grain Hornady ELD, but if the throat is long enough to allow the load to get enough speed out of the 88s or 90s it can be beat.
When I shoot Nosler 85gr RDF I shoot open class, when I run the Nosler 77gr RDF I am in Tactical class. I use Reloader 15 powder for both and LC brass. Proof barrels 26"
For the 88s I'm running Varget, Alliant 2000-MR and IMR 8208 XBR and I'm going to try some Vit 550 soon in an effort to use it up.
25.5 grains of Varget is messing with my seating depth at around 2.610 OAL with FL cases because its a compressed load and that gets me to around 2908 FPS... plenty hot though. Alliant 2000-MR and IMR 8208 XBR have plenty of room in the case running the same speed.
Primers are BR4 and Federal Match.
My 1:7 Bartlien barrel is 26 inches long.
I seem to be hitting an accuracy node with the 88s around 2850 FPS, almost all groups with all powders are around 1/2 MOA at 100 yards but I printed a nice 0.18 inch group on Saturday around 2850 FPS.
I'm going to knock the primers out this week and pin gage the primer holes to gage web expansion and see just how hot things are getting.
25.5 grains of Varget is messing with my seating depth at around 2.610 OAL with FL cases because its a compressed load and that gets me to around 2908 FPS... plenty hot though. Alliant 2000-MR and IMR 8208 XBR have plenty of room in the case running the same speed.
Primers are BR4 and Federal Match.
My 1:7 Bartlien barrel is 26 inches long.
I seem to be hitting an accuracy node with the 88s around 2850 FPS, almost all groups with all powders are around 1/2 MOA at 100 yards but I printed a nice 0.18 inch group on Saturday around 2850 FPS.
I'm going to knock the primers out this week and pin gage the primer holes to gage web expansion and see just how hot things are getting.
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So I used gage pins to test for primer pocket expansion last night.
The rounds ranged from 2750 FPS to 2910 FPS with 88s.
Now, I'm not certain the starting primer hole size because I'm using once fired IVI brass, but most of them are 0.173" and the odd one is already 0.174". I did not gage them individually before loading.
Of all the cases I fired on Saturday (about 30 or so) about 1 out of 3 (from each 3 round test group) will accept a 0.174" gage pin. Again, not certain how many may have been able to take it before firing, but safe to say there probably was some primer hole expansion, but no more than 0.001" diameter.
I expected to find a lower expansion ratio on the slower 2750 FPS cases, but that was not the case. It was about the same ratio regardless of the powder charge used.
None of the cases will accept a 0.175" gage pin.
So I hope that provides you with some sort of pressure indication.
In these targets I shoot one shot per target going from left to right.
I wrote the speeds down under each shot, where the Labradar picked it up.
The rounds ranged from 2750 FPS to 2910 FPS with 88s.
Now, I'm not certain the starting primer hole size because I'm using once fired IVI brass, but most of them are 0.173" and the odd one is already 0.174". I did not gage them individually before loading.
Of all the cases I fired on Saturday (about 30 or so) about 1 out of 3 (from each 3 round test group) will accept a 0.174" gage pin. Again, not certain how many may have been able to take it before firing, but safe to say there probably was some primer hole expansion, but no more than 0.001" diameter.
I expected to find a lower expansion ratio on the slower 2750 FPS cases, but that was not the case. It was about the same ratio regardless of the powder charge used.
None of the cases will accept a 0.175" gage pin.
So I hope that provides you with some sort of pressure indication.
In these targets I shoot one shot per target going from left to right.
I wrote the speeds down under each shot, where the Labradar picked it up.
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Yes. 23.5 grains loaded near max mag length. I think it's like 2.54" coal? 29.5" barrel goes around 2830 fps
Bearing surface of the 88 isn’t as long. If you have a long barrel like mine you should be able to no problem. I don’t reload my brass though. I toss it after one firing
What twist is your barrel? I run the 75gr ELDM in a 1-8 with good results, might try the 80gr to see how they shoot.
One firing?
It only gets good after the first firing.
My cases grow 0.005" on both body diameter and headspace. That's when they fit correctly and start to shoot really well.
If your load is so hot that cases are toast after just one firing, I would suggest that you back off the load for first full length resized cases and then get aggressive on the second firing with a neck resize only.... And then toss them.
I use wolf primed brass. My 223 is a trainer and I use it because loading is super fast and can be done on a Dillon. I’m not wasting my time with a trainer picking up and resizing brass. If I’m going through all that trouble I’ll shot my 6BR which is superior to a 223 in just about every regard except recoil for PRS. The wolf primed brass is like .13 cents a piece. Not worth reloading when you can buy new.
my 223 shoots half inch or better which is all I need from a training rifle. I can be competitive in club matches with it and the ballistics damn near match my 6BR. Past 700 yards the 6BR has a major advantage with both splash and vertical compared to any .223 I’ve ever shot.
my 223 shoots half inch or better which is all I need from a training rifle. I can be competitive in club matches with it and the ballistics damn near match my 6BR. Past 700 yards the 6BR has a major advantage with both splash and vertical compared to any .223 I’ve ever shot.
I run 6XC for matches because it’s superior ballistically but I have a real soft spot for the 223 so I want to maximize the cartridge as far as I can Because it is still plenty capable of winning some of my local events
I’m shooting PRS Tactical division this year. Made the finale this year! I am running 75gr eldm in a 7twist Mullerworks barrel. 24 grains of 8208 is giving me 2990 f/s.
Ok, now I'm really curious what speeds you are getting and what bullet you are running in the 6BR. Most guys that I've spoke with are around 2900 FPS with 105s or 108s with a G1 BC around 0.535.
I can easily hit 2850 FPS with the 88 ELD with a G1 BC of .545, and with fire formed cases I'm comfortable with 2900 FPS, with less recoil than the 6BR. So it seems as though I'm getting about the same trajectory, but maybe I'm missing something.
I get it how the 6BR is a dream for accuracy, but how much better can the ballistics be than what I'm getting with my 223?
My current rifle does not have a tight neck, but I'm seriously considering a new barrel with a tight neck so I can neck turn and really dial my 223 in.
I have things set up where I quickly neck turn brass in lots of 2-3000 anyway, so it wouldn't be a big deal to add my 223 to the mix.
And here's the thing.... I think of PRS as a priority game... where I have to manage the time it takes to the odds of getting a hit. On that basis I tend to rush the long shots and get back inside 850 yards where I'm confident I will make a hit. So to me, it seems that sacrificing 1200 yard performance is of little consequence... unless you are in serious contention to win the match. Which I'm not.
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As someone that was competitive with 223 and switched to 6/6.5 Creedmoor, consider the RO's ability to spot impacts on targets. Here in Florida, I was making impacts (verified by squamates with their own spotting scopes), but the RO's would occasionally not see the impact due to mirage. I still have my 223 standing by, but the bottom line is that there is no replacement for displacement. 
No doubt about seeing impacts. I have first hand knowledge with the mirage here in south Texas. I've had a "couple" of hits not given.
Where I've been shooting they have indicator lights that work even with the 223, so I assume you guys don't have them huh.
Before they got the lights it was a problem for my 223 and I got robbed many times, but it happens even with 6mms.
Before they got the lights it was a problem for my 223 and I got robbed many times, but it happens even with 6mms.
6BR vs 223
IMO
Better SD
Better accuracy inherently
Better splash and target swing/movement to indicate where on plate you hit.
223 has better recoil and cost potentially. Is is also limited to 10 round mags. Dealbreaker for me in comps.
Last national match I was at was out to 1505 yards. I had more impacts with my 6BR than the majority of guys with much “better” calibers (6CM, 6.5CM, 6.5x47, etc). I came in second by I believe 3 points or so, so yes every point matters to me and you should have the same attitude if you ever want to be truly competitive. Every point is worth the same. Dropping 3 on a long range stage costs the same as dropping 3 on the PRS barricade. So to me consistency trumps all else. The 6BR is a less finicky, more consistent round than a .223. Also you’re comparing a specialty 223 load loaded long and hot with a long throat chamber vs a normal load/chamber of 6BR. I can run my BR hot and it will be 100 FPS or more faster than a 88 in 223.
also friendly tip...if you think a 105 BC trues to what’s on the box you might want to go shoot them at 1000 and see what your kestrel tells you it is
. My barrel/lot trues to over a .280 G7At the end of the day how many top shooters do you see shooting 223 in matches? 0. That should tell you all you need to know. It's a great caliber for cheap training and for new, young, or possibly female shooters that are sensitive to recoil.
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I had the same issue with 10rd capacity. So imodified a 10 rd mag to a 13 rd mag. It's long, but runs great.
Tried to upload a video, but it is an mp4 file and the hide doesn't support that type of file.
Tried to upload a video, but it is an mp4 file and the hide doesn't support that type of file.
Can you explain a little about how you adjusted the mag to hold more rounds?
And what mag you're using?
Accurate mag?
The 80 smk are awesome I also run them out of a 26” barrel at 2900 and have no problem to 1200 I’ve been running this as my match rifle while I tune and fireform my 6brx.
The 80 SMKs are easy to shoot accurately but don't compete anywhere near the 75 or 88 ELDs for BC, and that offsets the accuracy advantage, particularly for PRS where targets are fairly large.
I got out yesterday using fired formed IVI cases, neck resize only... That made a big difference in reducing primer flatness.
I took a couple shots at 670 yards with 88s and 25.5 grains of Varget… and needed 13.75 MOA for drop... So that's like 3.999 MILs.
Seems 8208 XBR is slightly more accurate than 2000MR in my rifle, but I can go a little faster with 2000MR.
Here's where I tested Vihtovori 550 and hit 2942 FPS.../ primers were not terribly flat... could go a little hotter really.
26.5 grains of 550 went 2903 FPS.... but I didn't write it on the target.
I took a couple shots at 670 yards with 88s and 25.5 grains of Varget… and needed 13.75 MOA for drop... So that's like 3.999 MILs.
Seems 8208 XBR is slightly more accurate than 2000MR in my rifle, but I can go a little faster with 2000MR.
Here's where I tested Vihtovori 550 and hit 2942 FPS.../ primers were not terribly flat... could go a little hotter really.
26.5 grains of 550 went 2903 FPS.... but I didn't write it on the target.
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So for anybody who follow this conversation I have found that number with the 88s I was looking for. 23.8 grains of 8208 with Starline 556 brass will push that bullet 2850 out of a 28 inch tube. I have managed to accomplish the desired goal of a six BR replica. That said I am finding some very efficient applications of 75 ELD’s running 2980 for match purposes.
To run the 80's, will a sammi chamber/throat work? I have a criterion Remage on a 700 action for a trainer. Was using the 77RDF's and thought about trying the 88 eld's
Update for you guys... I tried the 2000-MR powder in cold weather a couple weeks ago and the velocity spreads went crazy. (Like 100 FPS ES) Seems like it's really temperature sensitive, or maybe needs a hot primer.
At the moment I'm still likeing good old Varget or 8208XBR because I can fit a little more of it into the case without a compressed load like I get with Varget.
Varget seems to work best with fire formed cases that are just neck resized because that little bit of extra case volume reduces my load compression. 8208XBR is not compressed even if the case is FL resized.
At the moment I'm still likeing good old Varget or 8208XBR because I can fit a little more of it into the case without a compressed load like I get with Varget.
Varget seems to work best with fire formed cases that are just neck resized because that little bit of extra case volume reduces my load compression. 8208XBR is not compressed even if the case is FL resized.
