.223 rem vs 6.5 cr for first mid range rifle

[Turkeytider]

Honestly, i have more fun shooting my 223 at 300 yards than any of my other rifles.

Couldn`t be more pleased that my first range gun is a .223. Shooting at, and hitting a fair amount, 8" and 6" gongs at 500 is a hoot. Now......the 4" ? That`s a helluva challenge....at least for yours truly! Of course, the only " competition " I`m engaged in is with myself.

 

[FredHammer]

I would shoot a 45-70CM. To eek in all the points I could if the round hit near the higher ring. If ya ain't cheatin, ya ain't tryin!

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I'll bet those Fudd matches with vudoos are getting beaten by guys with 10/22's too. No one said a .223 is a benchrest caliber, most of all have said it was cheaper, fun, and easy to shoot. Do you really expect a "beginner" to win anything? When I was roadracing motorcycles I seldom had the best machinery, but I was usually in the top three or close to it. It isn't just the equipment. But I guess you're the dildo expert and must know better.

No they are getting their shit pushed in, because they are running stuff that is not mechanically capable of competing. The guns basically shoot themselves and the only thing someone with a 10/22 is winning, is semi auto division.

Some of you cannot read and do not even understand what the OP is trying to do.

He wants to compete on paper at 300. HRM.... if only we had a discipline that has been around for 50+ years that has optimized how to shoot paper at 300 yards for a blue print...................................

No one gives a fuck about you riding motorcycles because it has zero relevance or similarity. A great shooter cannot overcome a bad gun the way a great rider can overcome a slower bike. They have these things called turns, maybe you have heard of them. If you actually raced you would understand this.

.223 is a poor option for a number of reasons. IF he HAS to shoot factory or even semi custom ammo, there are no real good .223 options. There are good options for something like a 6GT or 6 BR from the likes of Lapua or Unknown munitions. You still won't be able to hang with guys hand loading something tailored to the rifle that is built to compete at that game. As I said before, the best value would be buying someones old/used BR rig and using that. Nothing else is going to get you close without dumping a bunch of money into a rig AND reloading.

If the goal was to just shoot and not be competitive, shoot whatever the fuck you want. He said he wanted to compete, and to compete, you need to atleast have equipment capable of doing so. The skills as well, but without the equipment, the skills dont fucking matter.

 

[beetroot]

I say try pick up a used Tikka in 223, CTR or varmint.

Shoot it in the factory stock which is perfectly serviceable, or upgrade to a KRG Bravo and you’ll have a great shooting rifle for not a huge amount of money. Burris XTR3/XTR3i is probably the best bang for the buck scope wise.

223 is a great cartridge to get started with, if you are only shooting to 300yards then damn near any ammo will be good enough to get you going.
If you get your fundamentals right, under 300 you can easily be competitive with a 223 even with bulk ammo, you might not win any matches with 1moa ammo but you won’t be coming last purely because your ammo isn’t shooting 1/4moa.

Also if you plan to stick around here put deathbeforedismount on ignore, you wont be missing any posts of any value.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The geriatrics who shoot minute of pie plate at 100 yards have spoken.

Competitive with bulk ammo? Competitive with what? A shotgun? LOLOLOL

 

[Turkeytider]

The geriatrics who shoot minute of pie plate at 100 yards have spoken.

Competitive with bulk ammo? Competitive with what? A shotgun? LOLOLOL

You 30-somethings ( or whatever you are) shouldn`t be knocking geriatrics. You`ll be one before you know it, hoss. And for all you know, maybe somebody gets just as much enjoyment out of " minute of pie plate at 100 yards " as you do putting 5 inside of 10" at 1K. Something for everyone to enjoy, don`t you think?

 

[spife7980]

The geriatrics who shoot minute of pie plate at 100 yards have spoken.

Competitive with bulk ammo? Competitive with what? A shotgun? LOLOLOL

You keep talking about being competitive but I seem to remember you getting dunked on not that long ago for just how uncompetitive you are yourself?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You keep talking about being competitive but I seem to remember you getting dunked on not that long ago for just how uncompetitive you are yourself?

By small dicks who dont even compete or shoot. Its hilarious to try to call someone out when your hiding behind a PC and refuse to show your scores. What is your PRS number again?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

You 30-somethings ( or whatever you are) shouldn`t be knocking geriatrics. You`ll be one before you know it, hoss. And for all you know, maybe somebody gets just as much enjoyment out of " minute of pie plate at 100 yards " as you do putting 5 inside of 10" at 1K. Something for everyone to enjoy, don`t you think?

Yea no doubt man. Its a select few around here targeted at.

Guy comes here asking for advise. Most of the advice is garbage. Its been explained why its garbage but they want to argue.

The irony is the best F class and Bench rest shooters are mostly geriatrics and old dudes. Problem is they don't waste their time posting here with the chads. So you get old crusty assholes who get mad when someone tells them they are wrong. Go ask any of them if they recommend .223, bulk ammo or rack grade cheap rifles while not reloading. Bless their hearts.

Guy wants to compete and you got fools telling him he can be competitive with bulk ammo? I mean if you can't laugh at that what can you laugh at.

 

[carbonbased]

Ran some numbers through Strelok.

Ammo*​	10mph 90° Wind Hold @300yds (mrad)​	Cost per rd as of 11/3/23**​
.223 77gr TMK Black Hills	0.7​	$1.40-$1.60​
6BR Norma Lapua 105gr Scenar-L	0.7​	$2.24-$2.76​

Just starting out, with factory ammo? I think that at least between the ammo above, .223 is the winner for 300 yds.

* Didn’t have .223 SMK 77gr available in Strelok and was too lazy to input it
** Prices via Ammoseek

 

[FredHammer]

No they are getting their shit pushed in,

I'm a child, I know. Every time tho:

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I'm a child, I know. Every time tho:

 

[FredHammer]

View attachment 8263412

MONICA, please....

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

No one gives a fuck about you riding motorcycles because it has zero relevance or similarity. A great shooter cannot overcome a bad gun the way a great rider can overcome a slower bike. They have these things called turns, maybe you have heard of them. If you actually raced you would understand this.

Bit off topic here, but I disagree with this paragraph. Racing is even more of an equipment based game than shooting. At least in shooting the wind/environmentals are an equalizer. In racing sure you have turns but they're mostly constants that you can plan for. If your vehicle is down 10% in horsepower or doesn't have a good setup then you're screwed.

 

[carbonbased]

Ran some numbers through Strelok.

Ammo*​	10mph 90° Wind Hold @300yds (mrad)​	Cost per rd as of 11/3/23**​
.223 77gr TMK Black Hills	0.7​	$1.40-$1.60​
6BR Norma Lapua 105gr Scenar-L	0.7​	$2.24-$2.76​

Just starting out, with factory ammo? I think that at least between the ammo above, .223 is the winner for 300 yds.

* Didn’t have .223 SMK 77gr available in Strelok and was too lazy to input it
** Prices via Ammoseek

So, I added some more calibers.

Again, through Strelok.

Ammo*​	10mph 90° Wind Hold @300yds (mrad)​	Cost per rd as of 11/3/23**​
.223 69gr Federal GM223M	0.8​	$1.10-$1.57​
.223 77gr TMK Black Hills	0.7​	$1.40-$1.60​
6mm ARC	???​	$1.18-$3​
6BR Norma Lapua 105gr Scenar-L	0.7​	$2.24-$2.76​
6.5CM Hornady 140gr ELD Match***	0.4​	$1.18-$2.50​

As I said before, just starting out, with factory ammo? 6 ARC has few factory rifles from which to choose (and some other issues), so I still think that at least between the ammo above, .223 is the winner for 300 yds.

Sure, 6.5 has less wind drift, but I think the recoil/spotting mechanics alone make that cartridge a tougher choice for a regular shooter, let alone a beginner.

I’ll leave it to you guys to calc 6 ARC wind. I don’t have it inputed in Strelok and am short on time. I also don’t know what is considered a decent match round so the spread of prices for 6 ARC is large as I just used the price swath of all of the available 6 ARC ammo.

* Didn’t have .223 SMK 77gr available in Strelok and was too lazy to input it
** Prices via Ammoseek
*** Significantly more recoil, may not be appropriate for a beginner. Harder to spot for yourself. Currently, 6mm rules PRS (I think). Also, didn’t have Berger in Strelok & also too lazy to add it.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

So, I added some more calibers.

Again, through Strelok.

Ammo*​	10mph 90° Wind Hold @300yds (mrad)​	Cost per rd as of 11/3/23**​
.223 77gr TMK Black Hills	0.7​	$1.40-$1.60​
6mm ARC	???​	$1.18-$3​
6BR Norma Lapua 105gr Scenar-L	0.7​	$2.24-$2.76​
6.5CM Hornady 140gr ELD Match***	0.4​	$1.18-$2.50​

As I said before, just starting out, with factory ammo? 6 ARC has few factory rifles from which to choose (and some other issues), so I still think that at least between the ammo above, .223 is the winner for 300 yds.

Sure, 6.5 has less wind drift, but I think the recoil/spotting mechanics alone make that cartridge a tougher choice for a regular shooter, let alone a beginner.

I’ll leave it to you guys to calc 6 ARC wind. I don’t have it inputed in Strelok and am short on time. I also don’t know what is considered a decent match round so the spread of prices for 6 ARC is large as I just used the price swath of all of the available 6 ARC ammo.

* Didn’t have .223 SMK 77gr available in Strelok and was too lazy to input it
** Prices via Ammoseek
*** Significantly more recoil, may not be appropriate for a beginner. Harder to spot for yourself. Currently, 6mm rules PRS (I think). Also, didn’t have Berger in Strelok & also too lazy to add it.

None of that factors into printing groups at 300 on paper. Even the very best factory loads will shoot around 12-20 SD and barely hold 1/2" moa over time.

ARC in a bolt gun is pointless, it was designed to be shot out of a small frame AR, like the 6.5 grendel. Its a compromise. A BR it is not.

Shooting Factory ammo is pretty much deciding to lose from the jump. But if you are going to do it, I would probably run something like a 6 BR so you get good Lapua factory ammo (the bc of a dated bullet like the Scenar is much less important than bullet consistency, which they are known for) as well as good brass that can either be reloaded, or sold to offset ammo cost.

Is it possible the OP finds a gun, .223 ammo, scope ect that shoots competitive under $2500? Yea anything is possible. Is it probable? Not at all.

Guys can pull an example of one dude doing something statistically insignificant but that is the exception, not the rule. Unless you can replicate it, does it even matter? Look across the board at what people are using for this kind of shooting. Its going to be clear really fast what works and what doesn't. If guys could save a ton of money, time, barrel life and powder shooting .223, they would already be doing it.

 

[carbonbased]

None of that factors into printing groups at 300 on paper. Even the very best factory loads will shoot around 12-20 SD and barely hold 1/2" moa over time.

ARC in a bolt gun is pointless, it was designed to be shot out of a small frame AR, like the 6.5 grendel. Its a compromise. A BR it is not.

Shooting Factory ammo is pretty much deciding to lose from the jump. But if you are going to do it, I would probably run something like a 6 BR so you get good Lapua factory ammo (the bc of a dated bullet like the Scenar is much less important than bullet consistency, which they are known for) as well as good brass that can either be reloaded, or sold to offset ammo cost.

Is it possible the OP finds a gun, .223 ammo, scope ect that shoots competitive under $2500? Yea anything is possible. Is it probable? Not at all.

Guys can pull an example of one dude doing something statistically insignificant but that is the exception, not the rule. Unless you can replicate it, does it even matter? Look across the board at what people are using for this kind of shooting. Its going to be clear really fast what works and what doesn't. If guys could save a ton of money, time, barrel life and powder shooting .223, they would already be doing it.

I guess I’m not looking at the best cartridge for winning. I’m just recommending something for the OP’s requirements and stipulations.

He’s a new father (no time), must shoot factory ammo (due to no time), and is new at the sport (lighter recoil prob good). He probably want to have fun, not necessarily win right off the bat.

Who knows how long he’ll shoot? I know little kids take up a loooootttt of time.

For $2-$2.5k a .223 Tikka CTR or Super Varmint plus including a scope seems like a reasonable step into the game.

I suppose he could get a 6.5cm if hunting deer is on the table. But people shoot deer with .223 TMK (ducking).

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Yea man i get it it sucks. I got a small kid too. The Tikka's are good rifles but you get limited by twist rate and they shoot a bit on the slow side.

He asked how he could be competitive. I already beat the horse dead so gona bow out of the thread. Just trying to make sure the dude has realistic expectations before he spends his money on something that may not do what he thinks it will.

 

[carbonbased]

A possibility is to borrow friend’s rifles in different calibers to see what you like. Or strike up conversations at the range…many guys will offer to let others shoot their guns.

Just spitballing.

 

[Im2bent]

I guess I’m not looking at the best cartridge for winning. I’m just recommending something for the OP’s requirements and stipulations.

He’s a new father (no time), must shoot factory ammo (due to no time), and is new at the sport (lighter recoil prob good). He probably want to have fun, not necessarily win right off the bat.

Who knows how long he’ll shoot? I know little kids take up a loooootttt of time.

For $2-$2.5k a .223 Tikka CTR or Super Varmint plus including a scope seems like a reasonable step into the game.

I suppose he could get a 6.5cm if hunting deer is on the table. But people shoot deer with .223 TMK (ducking).

77 gr Sierra SMK’s deer hunting

Cleaned the tip with a small jewelers drill bit and the results. 223 w/77 gr SMK at 2780 fps, tagged out with a 234 yard shot & 20 yard recovery. jacket was in the offside hide.

www.snipershide.com

 

[NewsShooter]

Yea no doubt man. Its a select few around here targeted at.

Guy comes here asking for advise. Most of the advice is garbage. Its been explained why its garbage but they want to argue.

The irony is the best F class and Bench rest shooters are mostly geriatrics and old dudes. Problem is they don't waste their time posting here with the chads. So you get old crusty assholes who get mad when someone tells them they are wrong. Go ask any of them if they recommend .223, bulk ammo or rack grade cheap rifles while not reloading. Bless their hearts.

Guy wants to compete and you got fools telling him he can be competitive with bulk ammo? I mean if you can't laugh at that what can you laugh at.

Black hills 77 SMK, out of a savage



One of my last races at Sears Point. Hadn't raced in two years, only got a third place.

 

[carbonbased]

Ok, prob last post on this subject. Had a sec to add a 6ARC into Strelok for the OP.

Ammo​	10mph 90° Wind Hold @300yds (mrad)​	Cost per rd as of 11/3/23**​
.223 69gr Federal GM223M	0.8​	$1.10-$1.57​
.223 77gr TMK Black Hills*	0.7​	$1.40-$1.60​
6mm ARC Hornady 108gr ELD Match***	0.5​	$1.20-$2.15​
6BR Norma Lapua 105gr Scenar-L	0.7​	$2.24-$2.76​
6.5CM Hornady 140gr ELD Match****	0.4​	$1.18-$2.50​

Still think .223 is the way to go for a new guy, but that 6ARC looks pretty cool. Too bad more manufacturers don’t make bolt rifles in that caliber.

*Didn’t have .223 SMK 77gr available in Strelok and was too lazy to input it
**Prices via Ammoseek
***Issues with stock rifle availability. No idea if 108gr ELD sucks or not.
****Significantly more recoil, may not be appropriate for a beginner. Harder to spot for yourself. Currently, 6mm rules PRS (I think). Also, didn’t have Berger in Strelok & also too lazy to add it.

 

[FredHammer]

Black hills 77 SMK, out of a savage

View attachment 8263594

One of my last races at Sears Point. Hadn't raced in two years, only got a third place.

View attachment 8263597

Do you know the MV of the BH77SMK fired?

 

[beetroot]

Ok, prob last post on this subject. Had a sec to add a 6ARC into Strelok for the OP.

Ammo​	10mph 90° Wind Hold @300yds (mrad)​	Cost per rd as of 11/3/23**​
.223 69gr Federal GM223M	0.8​	$1.10-$1.57​
.223 77gr TMK Black Hills*	0.7​	$1.40-$1.60​
6mm ARC Hornady 108gr ELD Match***	0.5​	$1.20-$2.15​
6BR Norma Lapua 105gr Scenar-L	0.7​	$2.24-$2.76​
6.5CM Hornady 140gr ELD Match****	0.4​	$1.18-$2.50​

Still think .223 is the way to go for a new guy, but that 6ARC looks pretty cool. Too bad more manufacturers don’t make bolt rifles in that caliber.

*Didn’t have .223 SMK 77gr available in Strelok and was too lazy to input it
**Prices via Ammoseek
***Issues with stock rifle availability. No idea if 108gr ELD sucks or not.
****Significantly more recoil, may not be appropriate for a beginner. Harder to spot for yourself. Currently, 6mm rules PRS (I think). Also, didn’t have Berger in Strelok & also too lazy to add it.

The advantage to 223 is you can shoot in tactical division or any match/class that is 223 only.

6ARC is the better performing cartridge but 223 is always nice to have and will have better availability of bulk ammo (ignoring any panic buying). If 300yards is the hard limit then 223 is more than adequate.

223 is also a more common chambering so more likely to find a decent factory rifle, or a used rifle.

 

[JFricke]

Alright, first Id like to thank everyone that posted.

The takeaway I get is that .223 is sufficient if good times and resonable accuracy are the goal. If winning matches out of the gate is the goal (unlikely due to being a beginner) I need to venture into the 6mm BR or others, and expect to start reloading.

Additionally various factory rigs chambered in .223 are sufficient for good times and reasonable accuracy (1 moa). If winning matches is the goal I need to spend some time looking for a dedicated rig that someone is letting go in order to upgrade and expect to still blow the budget. Either way buying used will help with the budget.

Ok, prob last post on this subject. Had a sec to add a 6ARC into Strelok for the OP.

Ammo​	10mph 90° Wind Hold @300yds (mrad)​	Cost per rd as of 11/3/23**​
.223 69gr Federal GM223M	0.8​	$1.10-$1.57​
.223 77gr TMK Black Hills*	0.7​	$1.40-$1.60​
6mm ARC Hornady 108gr ELD Match***	0.5​	$1.20-$2.15​
6BR Norma Lapua 105gr Scenar-L	0.7​	$2.24-$2.76​
6.5CM Hornady 140gr ELD Match****	0.4​	$1.18-$2.50​

Still think .223 is the way to go for a new guy, but that 6ARC looks pretty cool. Too bad more manufacturers don’t make bolt rifles in that caliber.

*Didn’t have .223 SMK 77gr available in Strelok and was too lazy to input it
**Prices via Ammoseek
***Issues with stock rifle availability. No idea if 108gr ELD sucks or not.
****Significantly more recoil, may not be appropriate for a beginner. Harder to spot for yourself. Currently, 6mm rules PRS (I think). Also, didn’t have Berger in Strelok & also too lazy to add it.

This is interesting. I don't really understand how the 6arc has so much less windage than the 6 br at what is likely the same velocity with a bullet that is only 3 grain heavier.... I have a lot to learn here obviously

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

The 105 scenar is a dated bullet compared to the 108 eldm but you can't trust either bc and the BR should be pushing it faster at lower pressures which would negate a difference in BC. Not sure where those numbers were pulled from but I would run them through AB with trued g7 and/or the cdm.
Hornady published data is horrific and that's when their bullets arent blowing apart.

 

[Cr1775]

None of that factors into printing groups at 300 on paper. Even the very best factory loads will shoot around 12-20 SD and barely hold 1/2" moa over time.

ARC in a bolt gun is pointless, it was designed to be shot out of a small frame AR, like the 6.5 grendel. Its a compromise. A BR it is not.

Shooting Factory ammo is pretty much deciding to lose from the jump. But if you are going to do it, I would probably run something like a 6 BR so you get good Lapua factory ammo (the bc of a dated bullet like the Scenar is much less important than bullet consistency, which they are known for) as well as good brass that can either be reloaded, or sold to offset ammo cost.

Is it possible the OP finds a gun, .223 ammo, scope ect that shoots competitive under $2500? Yea anything is possible. Is it probable? Not at all.

Guys can pull an example of one dude doing something statistically insignificant but that is the exception, not the rule. Unless you can replicate it, does it even matter? Look across the board at what people are using for this kind of shooting. Its going to be clear really fast what works and what doesn't. If guys could save a ton of money, time, barrel life and powder shooting .223, they would already be doing it.

Hate to break it to you, but es and sd don't mean dick at 300 yards.

 

[tna9001]

It's the same money for the gun and the ammo for either the .223 or, say, 6.5 Creedmoor, and with the Creedmoor, you get a much more versatile and capable rifle.

If you decide to do other matches like PRS, you will be limited by stage distances with the .223. Again, why buy a less capable rifle if other considerations are similar?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Hate to break it to you, but es and sd don't mean dick at 300 yards.

Hate to break it to you, when you are trying to win by .001s of an inch, they do.

 

[ECK]

Just throwing this out there because I’ve been contemplating adding a .223 bolt gun to the collection:

Build a rifle off a Zermatt Origin action with .223 bolt head ($900) and add a .223 pre-fit barrel(~$600). Drop it in a KRG Bravo stock (~$400), add trigger (buy a used one on the PX for $150-200). Top it off with a modest scope (there are a few decent options in the $700-1,000 range).

Later on, buy the .308 bolt head for the Origin action from Zermatt Arms ($125) and get a pre-fit barrel in one of the 6mm or 6.5 variants for longer range or whenever you start shooting comps where the heavier caliber is more competitive. I’m sure there’s someone at your local club that can point you in the direction of a local gunsmith that has an action wrench and barrel clamp (or buy your own).

It’s a little more than the OP’s stated budget (depending on which scope he goes with) but we all know how that’s only a self-imposed glass ceiling, and besides Christmas is coming up. Personally I think this is a better option in the long run, and being Rem 700 pattern its easily up-gradable as his shooting matures.

 

[NewsShooter]

Do you know the MV of the BH77SMK fired?

The velocity in my rifle is 2900, but I also have a 30 inch F class barrel.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Just throwing this out there because I’ve been contemplating adding a .223 bolt gun to the collection:

Build a rifle off a Zermatt Origin action with .223 bolt head ($900) and add a .223 pre-fit barrel(~$600). Drop it in a KRG Bravo stock (~$400), add trigger (buy a used one on the PX for $150-200). Top it off with a modest scope (there are a few decent options in the $700-1,000 range).

Later on, buy the .308 bolt head for the Origin action from Zermatt Arms ($125) and get a pre-fit barrel in one of the 6mm or 6.5 variants for longer range or whenever you start shooting comps where the heavier caliber is more competitive. I’m sure there’s someone at your local club that can point you in the direction of a local gunsmith that has an action wrench and barrel clamp (or buy your own).

It’s a little more than the OP’s stated budget (depending on which scope he goes with) but we all know how that’s only a self-imposed glass ceiling, and besides Christmas is coming up. Personally I think this is a better option in the long run, and being Rem 700 pattern its easily up-gradable as his shooting matures.

Was waiting for this to be suggested

Origin in 223 with a prefit then when your ready get the bolt head for 308 and get a 6.5 bolt head and rock on.

Easy button 100%

 

[Im2bent]

This is exactly what I'm doing except with a CDG.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Brenda was pretty tough on that 66% silhouette this afternoon with her .223. Prince is not exactly the easiest place to shoot. 180 degree wind shift between 1:15 and 2:30. If ever there was a place a .223 wouldn't work for Precision Rifle, east of the Texas border, my vote would be Prince.

300 yards, solid connection including the first round. Gotta love a wife of 49 years, 351 days and counting Who Can Shoot! (50 years of the 17th and she's letting me shoot an out of state match with our son on the 18th.).

(we will be having Thanksgiving with our son in Florida and Then head out on a celebratory vacation, to mountains she has never seen.)

So, I guess for 300 yards, if a fellow wants a .223, get one with a 1-7 twist barrel and get after it.

 

[PappyM3]

You need a new budget or pick a new game. The reason people are shooting ppc, br, dasher ect other than really good berger bullets in 6mm, is they are stupid easy to load for and are very forgiving of seating depth changes as the throat wears. With a great barrel you can shoot in the .0s and .1s with them after tuning.

Even our local Fudd matches here have guys showing up with vudoos and zco slinging center x and xact. If you want to be competitive, you need to spend the money to do so. Not saying you need the best glass but you are going to need a caliber that is forgiving ( .223 is not a 300 yard benchrest caliber no matter what anyone here says), and a really good barrel that you reload for and is tuned. You could probally buy cheaper glass as you won't be turning turrets a whole lot and resolution is less important.

If budget is a hard ceiling. I would look into buying a used BR rig. Something older but atleast setup to be competitive with what you will find out there. Buy as much used shit as possible. If you don't reload find someone who does and pay them to make ammo for you if you won't do it. Even the best factory ammo you can buy will not hold a candle to your average reload, especially when tailored to what the barrel likes.

Lots of guys want to race f1 but don't have 500m it takes to run a season. If you can't afford to play a game, find something else you can.

It’s quite easy to have fun at shooting competitions and compete to improve yourself, without competing for the top spot.

It is outright stupid for a beginner to jump into a competition series and buy the best and most expensive wizzbang gear there is.

If he enjoys it and decides to get more competitive, he can do so later after getting some experience and discovering his shortfalls.

Further, when did he say this was a bench test competition? All I saw was that it was a centerfire match at 300.

 

[TheBigCountry]

It’s quite easy to have fun at shooting competitions and compete to improve yourself, without competing for the top spot.

It is outright stupid for a beginner to jump into a competition series and buy the best and most expensive wizzbang gear there is.

If he enjoys it and decides to get more competitive, he can do so later after getting some experience and discovering his shortfalls.

Further, when did he say this was a bench test competition? All I saw was that it was a centerfire match at 300.

Don’t listen to him. He’s Mr500

 

[PappyM3]

This is exactly what I'm doing except with a CDG.

Yeah, the ARC Coup De Grace action is another great option for evolving your rifle to new calibers as you go.

Just throwing this out there because I’ve been contemplating adding a .223 bolt gun to the collection:

Build a rifle off a Zermatt Origin action with .223 bolt head ($900) and add a .223 pre-fit barrel(~$600). Drop it in a KRG Bravo stock (~$400), add trigger (buy a used one on the PX for $150-200). Top it off with a modest scope (there are a few decent options in the $700-1,000 range).

Later on, buy the .308 bolt head for the Origin action from Zermatt Arms ($125) and get a pre-fit barrel in one of the 6mm or 6.5 variants for longer range or whenever you start shooting comps where the heavier caliber is more competitive. I’m sure there’s someone at your local club that can point you in the direction of a local gunsmith that has an action wrench and barrel clamp (or buy your own).

It’s a little more than the OP’s stated budget (depending on which scope he goes with) but we all know how that’s only a self-imposed glass ceiling, and besides Christmas is coming up. Personally I think this is a better option in the long run, and being Rem 700 pattern its easily up-gradable as his shooting matures.

If you don’t want a brake or threads, or other “add-ons”, you can easily get a shouldered pre-fit for as little as $420 before shipping. And I’d say there are plenty of acceptable optics in the $500-$600 range around Black Friday sales. We’ve frankly gotten spoiled with how far scopes have improved across the price spectrum.

 

[PappyM3]

Don’t listen to him. He’s Mr500

Here I was thinking I shouldn’t listen to him because he’s either a tanker or a cav scout

 

[Cr1775]

Hate to break it to you, when you are trying to win by .001s of an inch, they do.

He was considering using a old Rem 721. I do no think he is trying to win by a rch.
I fully believe that sd and es don't mean crap at 300 yards, i think bench shooters try many things to get that competitive advantage. But that dont make it so. At long range, well thats another thing.

 

[Im2bent]

Here I was thinking I shouldn’t listen to him because he’s either a tanker or a cav scout

Woah, woah, woah what's with the tanker hate? Just cause we're smart enough to get out of walking all over damnation and packed a big gun is no reason for hostility.

 

[beetroot]

It's the same money for the gun and the ammo for either the .223 or, say, 6.5 Creedmoor, and with the Creedmoor, you get a much more versatile and capable rifle.

If you decide to do other matches like PRS, you will be limited by stage distances with the .223. Again, why buy a less capable rifle if other considerations are similar?

Why buy a rifle to suit something he might do in the future when all he has time/money for is 300 yard matches? When he could buy a rifle with near zero recoil and shoot cheaper ammo. At 300yards as a beginer I'd be buying something like Hornady training ammo which is $30 for 50rounds, which is far cheaper than anything in the 6.5CM and is more than accurate enough to get starter.

Not to mention 223 will do just fine out to 700yards, spotting impacts/misses gets dificult at longer distances but it's far from impossible.

If the OP is smart about what he buys he could either sell the rifle later at minimal loss and upgrade to a better suited cartridge.
Or keep the 223 as a trainer/ rifle for his kid to use when they grow up.

 

[carbonbased]

I don't really understand how the 6arc has so much less windage than the 6 br at what is likely the same velocity with a bullet that is only 3 grain heavier....

Re:less windage - From what I gather (and I might be wrong) is that the 6Arc bullet I listed has both a higher muzzle velocity while also having a higher BC than the listed 6BR bullet. Being a tad heavier helps a little, I’m sure, but…I feel BC and velocity probably are the reasons.

I was surprised as well. I had never ran the numbers, so to speak.

 

[tna9001]

Why buy a rifle to suit something he might do in the future when all he has time/money for is 300 yard matches? When he could buy a rifle with near zero recoil and shoot cheaper ammo. At 300yards as a beginer I'd be buying something like Hornady training ammo which is $30 for 50rounds, which is far cheaper than anything in the 6.5CM and is more than accurate enough to get starter.

Not to mention 223 will do just fine out to 700yards, spotting impacts/misses gets dificult at longer distances but it's far from impossible.

If the OP is smart about what he buys he could either sell the rifle later at minimal loss and upgrade to a better suited cartridge.
Or keep the 223 as a trainer/ rifle for his kid to use when they grow up.

The ammo cost is a wash. If someone is interested in learning precision shooting and doesn't have time to reload, you've got to buy quality match ammo, and that puts the .223 right up there with larger calibers. The only downside to a 6.5 or 6 Creedmoor is the recoil, and it's not much of a downside.

Your argument is like saying I need to dig a hole 3' deep; why do I need a shovel with a long handle when a shovel with a short handle is fine for a 3' hole and then if I need to dig a deeper hole, I'll just buy another shovel with a longer handle.

The Hornady training ammo is junk.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Here I was thinking I shouldn’t listen to him because he’s either a tanker or a cav scout

“almost infantry”

 

[anon]

With today's selection of parts, I'd have started with a new

$900 Origin Action and a new
$395 Criterion Shouldered Pre-Fit

and found the rest of the parts used, here, just me.

It is a great time to be getting started.

*the Origin won't work with a .223 BDL

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Here’s the solution to the problem

Several years ago, a hunting/target bow salesman explained to me that target shooters were leaving carbon arrows and going to wider aluminum arrows because the larger shaft allowed often would hit a ring where the narrow shaft, hitting at the same point would miss.

So, forget the .223 or 6.5, H&H for the price of a large Hollywood mansion or a closet sized New York City apartment will provide you with a 700 H&H double rifle. Heck, if you don’t hit the x ring, no worries, the darned thing will probably take our the entire target, maybe even the entire berm backing the target. A couple of shots and your shoulder will likely be toast as well

Or, if really adventurous, try a 4 Bore rifle. Twice the size, twice the fun. (And cheap too compared to the H&H)

Seriously…..

My thoughts, to end this discussion, OP get a rifle, get one that meets your budget, but with reasonable quality and popularity. Shoot it. If after a while, you don’t like it or want something better, either sell it, or save some pennies and buy what you think you like and keep the other for a spare.


Below, 4 bore rifle, estimated auction price 10 to 16K

 

[Im2bent]

The ammo cost is a wash. If someone is interested in learning precision shooting and doesn't have time to reload, you've got to buy quality match ammo, and that puts the .223 right up there with larger calibers. The only downside to a 6.5 or 6 Creedmoor is the recoil, and it's not much of a downside.

Your argument is like saying I need to dig a hole 3' deep; why do I need a shovel with a long handle when a shovel with a short handle is fine for a 3' hole and then if I need to dig a deeper hole, I'll just buy another shovel with a longer handle.

The Hornady training ammo is junk.
View attachment 8263989View attachment 8263988

That SD at 300 yards is not a deal breaker

 

[tna9001]

Maybe not, but if you want to learn precision shooting, you need an accurate rifle (sub moa) and good ammo. Otherwise, you're chasing your tail. There's a lot of bad advice in this thread; it's like one of those: "What kind of scope should I buy to shoot 300 yards?"

 

[beetroot]

Maybe not, but if you want to learn precision shooting, you need an accurate rifle (sub moa) and good ammo. Otherwise, you're chasing your tail. There's a lot of bad advice in this thread; it's like one of those: "What kind of scope should I buy to shoot 300 yards?"

Remember barely a decade ago when guys were doing PRS type events with Savages and Leupold Mark 4s?

Those guys were the ones paving the way for precision shooting the way its played today, and it clearly didn't ruin their shooting careers.

A 223 Tikka Varmint, KRG Bravo, and basically any $1000 scope on the market is 95% of the way towards race rifle anyway, and miles ahead of what most of us started out with.

Bulk 223 ammo (even with horrible ES) is a complete non issue for someone brand new to the game. Even if it were an issue the decent match for 223 is still cheaper than match 6.5/6CM ammo, so it's a complete non issue.
Not to mention a match shoot to a maximum of 300yards means majority of the targets are probably closer than 300 so the ES is not going to be the reason the OP comes 30th of 40 shooters rather than 27th.

 

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