Hunting & Fishing .223 vs .22-250 for coyote/deer/hog?

[BenY 2013]

Getting a bit of a wild hair and considering re-barreling my .308 to one of the calibers for hunting small to medium sized game. I have decided between the .223 and .22-250, Chad Dixon and the O'neil Ops crew have inspired me to build a rifle suited for this type of shooting. The barrel will be 16.5" finished and threaded for a suppressor. I already have the Form 1 sent off for a can for the .223(AR-15, yes I know I already have a .223 but I love the bolt guns) so keep that in mind. I would like to also be able to push the round out to longer distances at steel(1000yds and under), which I know both rounds can be capable of. Although slightly in favor of the .22-250.

Main reason I am considering the .223 is the availability and price of ammo. Also my Form 1 can will not be as ideal for a .22-250, however it should be good for the .223.

So if you had the choice between these 2 calibers and were going to be hunting this sized game which would be your choice? And why?

Ben

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

i was going to cast a vote for the .22-250, though with the 16.5" barrel and loss of velocity i don't know if it'll matter between the two without running numbers, though you'ld have more case capacity to play with the 22-250 if you reload, especially with if considering using the heavier / longer heads.

actually i think barrel twist and bullet choice would be a bigger consideration for choosing between the two.

 

[dk17hmr]

I don't know if I would go much less than 22" with a 22-250. It would probably be hell on a can, even if you didn't use a can it would be painful without hearing protection. I really like the 22-250 case but I like it more with a fast twist so it can stabilize heavier/longer bullets instead of only lightweight bullets.

I think the 223 will do better in a short barrel....and ammo is cheaper.

 

[Rattler56]

22-250 all the way, have two of them and love the caliber its a 223 on steroids.

 

[xdeano]

go with the 22-250.

xdeano

 

[ahhshoot]

I've never shot a 22-250. But you mention shooting a 223 with a 16" tube inside 1k yards. I can tell you from experience that the 223 after 700 is useless for 99% of applications. It will group to 600-650 decent with a 16" tube and 75 gr projectiles but after that you might as well go all-in on the river with nothing in hand. It just doesn't have the ass.

 

[coldboremiracle]

If you are going 16.5, then go .223. In my experience, there is nothing you can do with a 22-250 that cant be done reasonably well with a .223. If you wanna go long, definitely go with an 8 twist and shoot the biggies.

 

[coldboremiracle]

I can tell you from experience that the 223 after 700 is useless for 99% of applications.

Your "opinion" may be accurate for your DA, and your gun, skill set, etc. But that statement is quite incorrect. I have used short .223's to shoot well beyond 700, and even 1000 on occasion. for dropping dogs and varmints, it is great.

 

[ahhshoot]

Your "opinion" may be accurate for your DA, and your gun, skill set, etc. But that statement is quite incorrect. I have used short .223's to shoot well beyond 700, and even 1000 on occasion. for dropping dogs and varmints, it is great.

are you suggesting that the OP is better off shooting a 223 past 700 than a 22-250?

 

[coldboremiracle]

are you suggesting that the OP is better off shooting a 223 past 700 than a 22-250?

Why would you think that? Thats not what I suggested, I said that if he is going to go short, he may as well burn less powder and shoot a .223. If he was going to go longer, then I'd suggest a faster than standard twist 22-250. Like an 8-9 twist to take advantage of the 250 case.
What I was suggesting in the second post was simply that my experience, as well as the experience of most every body I shoot with, directly contradicts your statement about .223's being useless beyond 700yds. Though I guess I can see how you could mix the two subjects.

 

[Red343]

Usually i would say 22-250 its a awesome all around gun. But with you cutting the barrel down, wanting easier to find ammo and your suppressor more suited for a .223, you probably should go with the .223.

The 22-250 would probably be extra loud and have a huge fire ball with a 16" barrel.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Are you suggesting that the OP would be better off shooting big fireballs?

 

[ahhshoot]

Are you suggesting that the OP would be better off shooting big fireballs?

10-4. Are you suggesting that you don't like huge muzzle blast? lol.

I can't speak for others, I took my 16" AR which usually holds around 1 MOA to the range a while back just for this experiment. I didn't handload for this round so I bought the best factory ammo that I thought would be up for the task (heavy bullets high BC relatively and a good bit of oomph behind them). It held 1MOA with Norma 75 gr and Superformance 75 gr until about 700, but at 750-800 It spread out to about 4 MOA. I do live in Florida so atmosphere might be a factor here on the little boolitz, I believe it was an 8 twist barrel.

I'm not steering him away from the .223 for his use because in general I would guess 90% would be within 700 yards anyway and I do agree about the muzzle blast and wasted powder. But even with an ideal 223 setup you still aren't using the right tool for the job if you want to shoot that far. Hell, even the .22-250 isn't the ideal tool. But, even though he would have huge muzzle blast he would have a good bit more velocity with the heavier projo's.

And it's always fun to shoot fireballs

 

[ahhshoot]

Your "opinion" may be accurate for your DA, and your gun, skill set, etc. But that statement is quite incorrect. I have used short .223's to shoot well beyond 700, and even 1000 on occasion. for dropping dogs and varmints, it is great.

I don't doubt that you have. Down here at sea level and using the ballistics on coldbore are showing these things dropping into transonic at about 760.

Where you're at in Utah (elevation seems to vary between 2100 and 13k according to Wiki). Assuming 8k elevation you are still supersonic until almost 1k. So maybe we are both right?

 

[HOOFER]

Less than 18 I would do 223. Over 18. I would do 22-250. I between 223ai is an option to make up a bit of your short length. The 16.5 223 are fun. Handy and I wouldn't hesitate taking a good shot on a deer or hog with it.

 

[BenY 2013]

I believe I will go with the .223 for this application. Got to looking for ammo and the .223 is much more plentiful and cheaper as well. I may very well have a .22-250 one of these days, but for now I'll go with the .223.

For a 16.5" barrel what kind of twist would be the best? I'm not really sure what bullet weight I will be shooting yet, but I like the idea of heavier bullets for any kind of distance but the 55gr seems to be a very plentiful bullet. What would be a good all around twist for this? Thanks guys!

Ben

 

[coldboremiracle]

The standard is 9. Personally, I prefer an 8 twist, it still allows you to shoot most of the lighter stuff, but is fast enough to shoot the 75 and 80 grain bullets.

 

[skinney_7]

First off, Ben, that's awesome to hear we played a part in the decision of your new build! You're choosing wisely having Chad @ LRI do the work.
Second, I'm not quite certain why some are thinking a shorter barrel 250 is going to be loud, or cause a fireball, suppressed, cause it's not, enough said.
Getting into some specs for ya..., if you like, lock em up tip em over yote kills, and pdiggers popping like they have a lb of tannerite up inside em, then the 250, velocity, and hydrostatic shock are your friend, plain and simple, the 250 has the capability of higher velocity, and will carry more energy further than the .223.
I would highly suggest an 8 twist barrel, mine shoots the 50's up to the 69smk's better than I ever will, and like previously stated, it gives you the option to run the heavies for further applications.

There is no shortage of 22-250 ammo, and if you reload you can even roll with the Lapua brass Another consideration, since your can is on a form 1 have an inconel BB installed, there is a little pressure and heat on the 250 with a short barrel, if you can is built well, it will handle it...

Don't take my opinion as biased against the .223, I've shot one for years, still do, even killed a few "dogs" with mine but here's the deal yo, there's nothing the .223 can do, that the 22-250 can't exceed

 

[BenY 2013]

First off, Ben, that's awesome to hear we played a part in the decision of your new build! You're choosing wisely having Chad @ LRI do the work.
Second, I'm not quite certain why some are thinking a shorter barrel 250 is going to be loud, or cause a fireball, suppressed, cause it's not, enough said.
Getting into some specs for ya..., if you like, lock em up tip em over yote kills, and pdiggers popping like they have a lb of tannerite up inside em, then the 250, velocity, and hydrostatic shock are your friend, plain and simple, the 250 has the capability of higher velocity, and will carry more energy further than the .223.
I would highly suggest an 8 twist barrel, mine shoots the 50's up to the 69smk's better than I ever will, and like previously stated, it gives you the option to run the heavies for further applications.

There is no shortage of 22-250 ammo, and if you reload you can even roll with the Lapua brass Another consideration, since your can is on a form 1 have an inconel BB installed, there is a little pressure and heat on the 250 with a short barrel, if you can is built well, it will handle it...

Don't take my opinion as biased against the .223, I've shot one for years, still do, even killed a few "dogs" with mine but here's the deal yo, there's nothing the .223 can do, that the 22-250 can't exceed

Man I love y'all's videos very awesome work! I have patiently...oh what the hell ever...been awaiting that .300BLK video. I also know from your videos that the 250 would be fine in a shorter barrel. I will most likely never shoot at anything bigger than a woodchuck or something past 500yds, at least until I am certain that I can do my part. So I am not worried about the velocity being an issue. My main reservation with the .22-250 is my Form 1 can is only going to be 6.25" long... (yes I know I am a tard, but the From 1 was originally intended for a .22LR then I got a wild hair..) I am afraid that it will not have enough volume to effectively suppress the extra gas that will be coming out of the barrel as opposed to the .223.. Maybe if I were to run the can wet? At least until I could get another Form 1 back to make a longer can. What are your thoughts on this? Thank you and keep up the good work!

Ben

 

[PD DUMPER]

22-250 all the way. Thunderbeast suggested to go with the 30 cal. can for the 22-250, witch would double up for the anything thru .30 cal.

 

[AIS]

Had GAP build me a non-typical 22-250 with a 8 twist 24 in barrel to shoot the 75 gr bergers and that thing is fun!! Have just had it for 2 weeks so no data on yotes but lays a pdogs out!!! didn't know how the heavies would work on pdogs but its explosive!! If I was to go just a 16.5 barrel my vote is with 223 with a 8 twist barrel. Save some powder and get some dead dogs.....

 

[BenY 2013]

Ugh I am still undecided... I like the extra power of the 250, but that will also be a negative on barrel life.. Although the odds of me shooting out a barrel are quite slim. I do think my suppressor would do better on the .223 as well. So many things to consider.

Ben

 

[jeffbird]

considering re-barreling my .308

223 will require a new bolt as it uses a .378" bolt face, while the 308 and 22-250 use the same .473" bolt face.

So 22-250 by default unless you want to pay for a new bolt. For everything you describe, a 243 would be another to consider.

Might be prudent to check with the suppressor manufacturer whether it will handle a 22-250.

 

[BenY 2013]

Gun is a Savage so new bolt head should be quite quite simple. Also I am the manufacture of the suppressor since it is a Form 1. That is my only concern with the .22-250 however is pressure on the can, since I only have 6.25" to play with..

Ben

 

[BuzzBoss915]

I'm puzzled by your specifications? You definitely state that this would be a rebarrel on a 308, so the 22-250 is the logical choice. Why are you fixated on such a short barrel? Really, (and especially since you mention long range targets) either the 223 or the 22-250 should have a 24" barrel for optimum performance.

As far as hunting, coyotes, deer and hogs. I have killed thousands of coyotes with a 22-250Ackley, a 220 Swift and the Remington 22-250 chambering. The performance of the 223 is far inferior on game although I have killed a few hogs with a 223Ackley, head shots. It's possible, but not ideal. So, I am telling you, from considerable experience, that the 223 is nowhere near the performance level of the 22-250, and economy is such an insignificant consideration that it's not worth mentioning. You likely will never wash the barrel with either cartridge; it's a lot harder to do than you think, if you load half way sensibly.

The fireball actually is a consideration, with such a short barrel and you will have to use a faster burning rate powder than normal. Look, everybody has a dream rifle and I'm not really going to talk you out of it anyway. But, just stop and think about it a little more before you plunge. You know what that guy with the pointy ears said: "It's not logical".

Whatever, good luck and excuse my wet blanket response; I'm just trying to help. I have built several "Dream Rifles", I know what it's like to ponder this stuff. And while I'm at it, why the can? BB

 

[coldboremiracle]

And while I'm at it, why the can? BB

Why? have you used a can? Especially when hunting it provides a level of anonymity that is hard to live without once experienced. As Skinney's and others videos show, it makes a huge difference.
I understand your points about the 250, and agree with some. But I believe you are selling the 223 a bit short, in a couple different ways.

 

[Rattler56]

Like earlier I love my 22-250's, however if I were to go with a short barrel, I would do the .223 and my AR flat puts them down out to 600
with a 69 SMK.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Let me present exibit A:



This rifle is a 7.7 twist 20" Kreiger chambered in 223Wylde, it shoots 75Amax's at 2800fps. I have taken it to 1260 yds with great accuracy, (18"wide by 24"tall steel). Sure, had it been chambered in 22-250, it would be faster, and flatter. But it is stupid accurate, and repeatable inside 1K with favorable conditions. I have zero regrets about chambers, length, or design. While I have never shot a coyote with it, there is no doubt in my mind it would do well in those ranges, and excel inside 500. It punches right through antelope at 330yds, so a coyote or fox or any other varmint wouldn't fair well Im sure. Thats a .30 can, so it hushes it up real good.

Obviously, depending on the OP's DA and range, this may not be ideal. But it works great for me, and may work for those in similar conditions.

 

[BenY 2013]

I'm puzzled by your specifications? You definitely state that this would be a rebarrel on a 308, so the 22-250 is the logical choice. Why are you fixated on such a short barrel? Really, (and especially since you mention long range targets) either the 223 or the 22-250 should have a 24" barrel for optimum performance.

As far as hunting, coyotes, deer and hogs. I have killed thousands of coyotes with a 22-250Ackley, a 220 Swift and the Remington 22-250 chambering. The performance of the 223 is far inferior on game although I have killed a few hogs with a 223Ackley, head shots. It's possible, but not ideal. So, I am telling you, from considerable experience, that the 223 is nowhere near the performance level of the 22-250, and economy is such an insignificant consideration that it's not worth mentioning. You likely will never wash the barrel with either cartridge; it's a lot harder to do than you think, if you load half way sensibly.

The fireball actually is a consideration, with such a short barrel and you will have to use a faster burning rate powder than normal. Look, everybody has a dream rifle and I'm not really going to talk you out of it anyway. But, just stop and think about it a little more before you plunge. You know what that guy with the pointy ears said: "It's not logical".

Whatever, good luck and excuse my wet blanket response; I'm just trying to help. I have built several "Dream Rifles", I know what it's like to ponder this stuff. And while I'm at it, why the can? BB

The Savage bolt head can be swapped very easily. I realize the bolt head is a different size, but I have that covered if need be.

As to the short barrel, why not? Short barrel rifles are so much easier to maneuver. Especially in a deer stand or getting in and out of vehicles. I am not saying there is not a place for long barrels, but for my ranges there is no point for anything longer that 16-18" long. Also the can, once you have used one there is no going back at least for me.. Shooting with a suppressor is simply amazing.

I also believe that the price and availability of ammo should always be considered, maybe that is just me. I just always want to be able to find ammo for my guns(not reloading yet).

I have watched several videos of the .223 vs a coyote. In some of them the the coyote does not go down and keeps running which I personally do not like. Mostly because I do not like tracking animals through the thick brush I have where I hunt. I will say the videos I have seen of the .22-250, 95% of the dogs are down right there and don't get up. I like that.

Ben

 

[coldboremiracle]

The Ozarks aren't far off sea level, and I remember it to be quite humid, so more horsepower may be what the OP needs. I wish you well in your decision.

 

[coldboremiracle]

I have watched several videos of the .223 vs a coyote. In some of them the the coyote does not go down and keeps running which I personally do not like. Mostly because I do not like tracking animals through the thick brush I have where I hunt. I will say the videos I have seen of the .22-250, 95% of the dogs are down right there and don't get up. I like that.

Your reasoning makes sense, but I wonder; if a 55-60gr vmax @ 3300 wont do the trick, I doubt the same bullet at 3600-3800 will.

 

[BenY 2013]

Your reasoning makes sense, but I wonder; if a 55-60gr vmax @ 3300 wont do the trick, I doubt the same bullet at 3600-3800 will.

That is a very good point, I do believe shot placement played a large role in most of those videos. I am still leaning towards the .223 at this time. Seems like in my current situation it is the winner. Although a .22-250, may be a future project.

Ben

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Okay, I can see I wasted my breath explaining reality from my perspective, which includes many years of hunting, including Africa, Mexico, Europe and Canada. Ain't my first rodeo.

It's true, I'm not a fanboy of suppressers, and have no idea how "amazing" they are, but I concede the point.

I concede nothing insofar as selling the 223 short, over a 22-250. I own both, (5) in fact. There is no comparison, performance wise. Good luck. BB

 

[coldboremiracle]

I concede nothing insofar as selling the 223 short, over a 22-250. I own both, (5) in fact. There is no comparison, performance wise. BB

Your right, all things being equal, the 250 will always out perform the 223, all things being equal. I'd love to have a22-24" eight twist 250. Shooting 75-80's around the 3,000 mark would be awesome. The difference is when things are not equal. Standard twist in 250's wont spin a high bc big bullet, whereas the standard twist in a 223 will. Obviously if the op is building the gun, this is a non-issue, since he can twist it however he wants. But I have out shot standard 250's with my 223 on many occasions. All the extra speed you get wont carry very far. And I still maintain, a coyote or other small animal wont be able to tell the difference between a couple hundred feet per second. He's not gonna get back up and ask if you brought anything bigger. As always, shot placement is far more important than the other particulars.
So it just depends on what the op wants, and how much he wants to spend on ammo. Sure, there are plenty of reasons to go either way, choose op, you'll be in love either way.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

"As always, shot placement is far more important than the other particulars."

This is why, in the real world, velocity allows you to hold on fur, on multiples, for instance. My 22/243 has a 26" barrel and killing coyotes is much easier because I don't worry (as much) about drop, or have to dial it in, since there is never time for that anyway. This is where your selected zero and your midrange trajectory becomes important. Killing steel is a lot more patient than critters. In fact, dual purpose is almost never a better solution than strictly mission oriented. But, there I go again, sorry to intrude this dream. BB