224 Valkyrie vs 220 Thunderbolt

[padom]

224 Valkyrie vs 220 Thunderbolt

Valkyrie on the right is at max charge, compressed and heavy bolt lift at 2900 and trashing brass.

Cartridge on left should do 3000 easy with 4-5gr more powder capacity but we will see.

Bighorn Origin
6.8 Bolt Head
Bighorn 12 point nut
MDT ACC
Jewell
MDT BR mags

Same barrel blank
Both 26"
1:7
Same bullets (88 ELD, 90 VLD, 90 SMK, 95 SMK)


88 ELD-M in both. 224V on the right

 

[phlegethon]

Isn’t the whole point of the Valkyrie that it fits in a small frame AR? There are plenty of faster .22 cartridges for bolt guns.

 

[padom]

Isn’t the whole point of the Valkyrie that it fits in a small frame AR? There are plenty of faster .22 cartridges for bolt guns.

Show me which ones sling 90's at 3000, run reliably out of mags, and get 3000+ rounds out of a barrel before it craps out.

 

[demolitionman]

Sounds like fun. I’m tag’n in on this thread.

 

[bgavin]

Show me which ones sling 90's at 3000, run reliably out of mags, and get 3000+ rounds out of a barrel before it craps out.

I’m interested to see this.

 

[XLR308]

Straight necked down 68spc case ?

 

[padom]

Straight necked down 68spc case ?

Nope

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm gonna guess 220 Thunderbolt.

 

[padom]

?

 

[XLR308]

I'm gonna guess 220 Thunderbolt.

I honestly up until now never realized the 220TB was based on the 30 Rem case.
Learnt sompthin new I did ?

 

[padom]

I honestly up until now never realized the 220TB was based on the 30 Rem case.
Learnt sompthin new I did ?

That's what it was originally developed on but was not up to snuff and wouldn't last. That's not what these cases are.

 

[XLR308]

Next closest thing I could think of would be the 6mm Hagar, after that I'm out of turns and will just be patient.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Isn’t the whole point of the Valkyrie that it fits in a small frame AR? There are plenty of faster .22 cartridges for bolt guns.

Show me one with factory 88/90 ammo.....

 

[phlegethon]

Show me one with factory 88/90 ammo.....

Sure, there are definitely advantages to Valkyrie. But I was under the impression that once you were not constrained to the length of a 5.56 AR mag and were hand loading, it wasn't hard to improve on it's performance. I think the Valkyrie does an impressive job, but I am wondering if the OP is making an apples to apples comparison. It will be interesting to see.

 

[steve123]

I think I see a false shoulder on the mystery cartridge so I'm guessing it's necked down???

It must hold close to 30 grains of power too.

It'l be fun to find out.

 

[padom]

Sure, there are definitely advantages to Valkyrie. But I was under the impression that once you were not constrained to the length of a 5.56 AR mag and were hand loading, it wasn't hard to improve on it's performance. I think the Valkyrie does an impressive job, but I am wondering if the OP is making an apples to apples comparison. It will be interesting to see.

This cartridge was also designed to shoot out of an AR with 6.8 mags and bolt just like the 224V. First time it's been moved to the bolt gun to alleviate mag restrictions just like guys are doing with the 224V. It's a direct comparison.

 

[JCARL]

I'm intrigued.

 

[Kimber.204]

I just picked up a used AR-15 match rifle for NRA Highpower shooting in 220 Thunderbolt. This thing is awesome.
I've got some 88gr ELD's headed my way to try out.

I'll definitely be having Keystone Accuracy spin me up a pre-fit for my Bighorn TL3. Can't wait to see your analysis @padom

Regards,
Ross

 

[702lineman]

Well I'm anxious to see the 3000fps with 90s and 3000 rounds in the same cartridge. I have a 22-250ai with 26in barrel. It has had 90vld at 3383, and 95s at 3081. BUT, we are talking about 8 or 9 grains more powder and about 1200 rd barrel life.

I'm sure it can be done, just curious to see how.

 

[phlegethon]

OK, this does look interesting. Is there a new source of brass? Surely no factory ammo?

The .220 Thunderbolt, AR-15 Semi-Automatic | Keystone Accuracy

 

[Bradu]

How does this compare to a 22br?

 

[padom]

Well I'm anxious to see the 3000fps with 90s and 3000 rounds in the same cartridge. I have a 22-250ai with 26in barrel. It has had 90vld at 3383, and 95s at 3081. BUT, we are talking about 8 or 9 grains more powder and about 1200 rd barrel life.

I'm sure it can be done, just curious to see how.

Years of testing showed about 2500rd out of a button barrel and 3500rd out of a cut rifled barrel.

 

[padom]

How does this compare to a 22br?

That's probably the closest comparison.

I'm getting 3100fps with 77 TMK with this cartridge in a 24" Kreiger AR out of ASC 6.8 mags and sub 0.5moa accuracy.

 

[Bradu]

That's probably the closest comparison.

I'm getting 3100fps with 77 TMK with this cartridge in a 24" Kreiger AR out of ASC 6.8 mags and sub 0.5moa accuracy.

I figured they would be close in case capacity by looking at them. I want to do a 22 br eventually.

 

[padom]

Put some rounds through the new 220 Thunderbolt bolt gun barrel this afternoon. Used some very conservative loads fron my AR 77smk jumping a mile 3250 and 88 ELD 3000. 3000 on very conservative charge weight of 28.5gr RE15 with 88's is awesome news. 90smk load development up next...

 

[Sutherlandsd]

I'm either going to do a 224 valk or a 22 creedmoor. The fact I found 150 rounds of valk brass at the range yesterday seems to me like a sign I need to build one.

 

[phlegethon]

Would there be an advantage over 22-250 with modern bullets?

 

[padom]

I'm either going to do a 224 valk or a 22 creedmoor. The fact I found 150 rounds of valk brass at the range yesterday seems to me like a sign I need to build one.

224V brass gets trashed trying to push 88gr above 2850 in a bolt gun.

I didnt go 22 Creedmoor route cause of barrel life of 800-1000rds.

90s shooting at 3000-3050 with moderate charges and awesome barrel life was my goal with this project.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

My reality is I will probably do a 22-250 with a 1/7 twist barrel just because of the massive amounts of that calibers components that I have laying around. It would be nice though to find something with a better barrel life and that used around 25gr of powder or less just to keep it as the cheapo fun gun I am looking for, anymore powder and it makes me wonder why I am fooling with it when my 6br will do it better with 30gr of varget.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Would there be an advantage over 22-250 with modern bullets?

Barrel life and factory offering

 

[Long Range 338]

224V brass gets trashed trying to push 88gr above 2850 in a bolt gun.

I didnt go 22 Creedmoor route cause of barrel life of 800-1000rds.

90s shooting at 3000-3050 with moderate charges and awesome barrel life was my goal with this project.

Why does the 22TB have such a barrel life advantage? If the 22CM is loaded to equal pressures would it be the same for barrel life?

 

[b6graham]

Why does the 22TB have such a barrel life advantage? If the 22CM is loaded to equal pressures would it be the same for barrel life?

30 versus 40gr powder

6BR versus 6Creed but smaller scale

 

[XLR308]

Put some rounds through the new 220 Thunderbolt bolt gun barrel this afternoon. Used some very conservative loads fron my AR 77smk jumping a mile 3250 and 88 ELD 3000. 3000 on very conservative charge weight of 28.5gr RE15 with 88's is awesome news. 90smk load development up next...

This looks really promising and better yet somebody else is doing the R&D for the rest of us ?
In my 20" 68spc AR my hunting load is a 120sst pushed with AR-COMP at a consistent 2730fps with no pressure signs but even using a drop tube I'm out of usable case space to stay within mag restriction without compression. The 120sst eats up some space to stay at or below 2.3" COAL and allways wanted to try a 6mm or 224 version in bolt gun.

 

[Rocketvapor]

How's the current batch of 6mm Hagar brass turning out?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I love the 22-250 but it as wicked overbore as the 25-06. I shoot both for accuracy but glad to see some people recognize the potential of the TB. It has been there all this time.

 

[padom]

Here's how 77 TMK's shoot in my 24" Kreiger 220TB AR. That was with only 50rd on it last year. That load is my go to and sped up to 3100. 3250 easy in this 26" bolt gun. Maybe even 3300.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I like the 220TB. Thought about it before going with the 22N.
Always intended to reload so factory stuff except on clearance (because I'm cheap) wasn't a consideration.
The extra powder space sure sounds nice
Loading long in a No-Gas 28" AR is almost bolt gun
Necking down 6mm Hagar to 220TB would be easier (a little) than 6mm Hagar to 22N.
There's more brass where it's needed. Around the base.

The extra brass in the Hagar brass costs a little space but long loading the 220 TB would get it back, PLUS some. 35gr of CFE223 shown is not a load, just for volume comparison.

I'm currently shooting 30.3 gr of IMR4350 (at a node I think) and getting 2900fps with the 88's.
NO bad signs.
Occasionally getting Dime size 5 shot groups, but more often Quarter sized.
That opens up to about 1.5 MOA @ 600/60 shots.
I will follow your progress with the 220TB.
One question though, would the 220TB be a way to recover some usage from a shot out 22N barrel?
Not there yet, but will be someday.

Some details I've found;
Nosler brass for the 22N has a thicker neck. I might have to start turning, (.253 - .224)/2 =0.0145" .
Dogtown brass (bought on clearance from Midway @ around 23 cents each) is (.2505 - .224)/2 =0.01325"
6mm Hagar necked down to Nosgar is (.2508 - .224)/2 =0.0134"

The 220TB looks like it might be F-Open worthy (?)

 

[padom]

Making 22TB brass from 6mmHagar is so easy. Just run in it your FL bushing die with a 223 bushing. I use the exact same bushing I use for my 223 Lapua cases. Easy as that. Load and fire. Getting some other brass players on board is the goal here.

Water weight is damn close to 22BR but in a longer, slim case vs the pesky short/fat BR case. This aids in much more reliable feeding from a mag. Im running 1st run Hagar brass which is excellent stuff. From the guys that are running this and created this, they are getting well north of 12 reloads out of it. One guy says he gets 20 reloads out of it. Will see how that works in a bolt gun loading much longer.

 

[anon]

Why not just a 6mm Hagar with the 105-108s, or Valk necked up to 6mm?

 

[Rocketvapor]

"Getting some other brass players on board is the goal here. "
Even getting Hornaday on board for more frequent runs would be nice
The previous run was some nice brass. Current run has to be sorted, and it ain't that cheap.

"Why not just a 6mm Hagar with the 105-108s? "
That would be cheating

 

[padom]

Why not just a 6mm Hagar with the 105-108s, or Valk necked up to 6mm?

Barrel life and there is a lot bigger audience of 22cal shooters out there with components ready to load vs 6mm.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Most folks are hung up on mag length.
Long is where it's at

 

[Rocketvapor]

While we wait for actual targets
Here's some drift numbers for 600 yds.
Padom's brass trashing 224v with 88's 2900fps@600 yds, 3mph wind call error 0.32 mil 7.01"(sea level),
A more realistic 2800fps, 0.33 mil, 7.15"

I'm shooting the 88's 2900 with a 22N/28", maybe could go higher,

Getting the 88's up to 3000, same 3mph wind call error (I can do that ), 0.31mil, 6.65",

And zooming along at 3100fps, 0.28mil, 6.12".

BUT, when you get out LONG, 1000yds and beyond the wind difference is more.
A lot more.
the 3mph wind is
0.64 mil, 22.89" @ 2800fps,
and
0.54 mil, 19.36" @ 3100,
The 220TB wins with 3.5 inches less drift if you miss a call by just 3mph.
(per 2 calculators, maybe with errors, and maybe a little more in real life).

I get 11.5 MOA come up @ 2900fps from a good 100yd zero out to 600yds (a few F-Open 60 round matches) with my 28" 22N so the B.C. of the 88 seems darn close. (trying again Saturday)
Have a couple hundred 90's coming in just to try.

For you guys shooting 22CM's and stuff, the 88 ELD-M @ 3450fps, sea level only have 5.11" / 16.17"
(600/1000) with a 3mph call error. That's a whole inch better than the 220TB @ 600 and a barn missing 2" over a 224V

Somebody might ought to check my numbers.

 

[padom]

I got out today to get some more rounds down the 220TB. I had 45rd down the barrel just to check speed last outing. I put a few wet patches down the bore and dry patched it out before going out today.

I loaded up 25rd of 80smk over 29.5gr RE15 just to get some rounds down the clean barrel. Was interested in what speed these 80's were moving and if there was any pressure at 29.5gr. 29.0gr is my AR load with 77smk. Anything more than that and I see pressure. Was very interested to see if the longer COAL/more case capacity allowed me to go higher without seeing pressure signs.

I shot all 25rds over LabRadar. The first 20 I put on steel at 200yds. I then shot this 5 shot group on paper at 100yd before doing a little load development with the heavies. I pulled that last shot, got a little excited with the first 4 making that nice little knot. Those 4 shots measure 0.18". I had zero pressure signs with this load. No sticky or heavy bolt, primers looked great, nice and round and no marks on the case. These 80's can definitely be pushed higher. Very happy with 3120 and SD 8 over 25rds. With these results no need to push any harder and risk trashing brass.






I loaded up 2 OCW's (more to see where my ceiling was) with this virgin brass. The shoulder is blowing out a little bit with this formed brass so Ill be doing another OCW to find the center of the node with 1x brass. I also dont know where this thing likes the heavies seated so a seating depth test will be in order after I find my OCW.


First up is the 90 SMK over RE15. Impressive numbers at moderate charge weights. I didnt hit the ceiling, no pressure signs at all. I see no reason to go higher here as I reached my goal of 3000 easily. Interesting how the groups were all 1" or bigger until the 29.3gr load. Ill be going up to 29.5gr with my 1x OCW to see whats there then a seating depth test to follow to find where the 220TB likes these 90smk.







Next is the 88 ELD-M over RE15. These shot great with a very consistent POI across the charge weights. Again 29.3gr looks promising and interested to see what 29.5gr brings. Almost 3100fps and an SD5 at 29.3gr and zero pressure signs is way more than I expected from the 88's. Goal was 3000 with no pressure and good accuracy.








This is shaping up up to be a really nice test. The 224V definitely cant come close to these numbers with the heavies. 2800-2825 is the max if you want your brass to last. At least with CFE223 and H4895. Maybe thats different with other powders but not what Ive seen so far. I think the 80's is where its at with the 224V.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Nice comparison between the 90 and the 88.
Your group patterns (horiz/vert) between the two bullets and loads is interesting.

I bet a little less jump with the 90 and a little more with the 88 will be even better
You've probably reached a good summer load already.

 

[Steel head]

I’d wait for the impending 22 ninja magnum hornandy is announcing tomorrow

 

[SharpsNitro]

Are there any practical differences between the Thunderbolt and 22 Beast that Whitley markets?

 

[padom]

Are there any practical differences between the Thunderbolt and 22 Beast that Whitley markets?

Here's your response from the man himself, John Scandale, Owner of Keystone Accuracy and creator of the 220 Thunderbolt:

Here is a little history on the .220 Thunderbolt, as stated on the Keystone Accuracy website....the Thunderbolt was developed a year after the 6mm Hagar was rolled out around 2002. I was friends with the developer of the Hagar, John Harrison, both high power shooters from way back. The .220 was developed from no other reason than I (Keystone) had a ton of .22 cal bullets to use up, simply put 2 and 2 together and POOF, the .220 TB was born in 2004.
Seeing the significance of both cartridges, a fella named Robert Whitley, an attorney and part time high power shooter from Doylestown, PA rolled out a 6mm version of the 6.5 Grendel, called the 6mm AR and later the 6mm AR Turbo. Sales lagged for all of these cartridges but the cartridges continued to survive in small niche markets. Several years later, after I (Keystone) was pretty successful in high power with my .220 Thunderbolt for about 8 years, Whitley rolled out the .22 Beast, which was a direct dimensional copy of the original .220 Thunderbolt. For a short time, I even did some production work for Whitley, before Whitley's website went kind of radio silent. I don't know if they are still operational, but long story short...the .22 Beast was an exact copy of the .220 Thunderbolt, which was an exact copy of the 6mm Hagar,with exception to neck diameter.

 

[SharpsNitro]

Thanks padom.

I shoot Whitleys 243 30deg improved. I picked it over Joe Hendricks 6CM because more information was available on it.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I shoot a 22 Beast Short
The 22N (224V's big brother )