224 Valkyrie vs 220 Thunderbolt

[garandman]

Like I said, be careful what you say. You didnt say that. You said the COAL you need to load 224V doesnt fit in an AR mag....This is not a true statement. I load 88 ELD's all day long in my 224V gasser and they shoot tiny 0.5moa. groups...Is it going as fast as my custom 224V reamer in my bolt gun? No. But it shoots beautifully out to 800yds so far. Different strokes for different folks.

Fair enuf.


Thanx for the thread. I'll keep reading.

 

[MarinePMI]

Well...the seas started getting a little rough there...glad to see tings are calming down, and we can get back on topic.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm sufficiently well read,, thank you. You need to not make uninformed assumtions about what I've read.

You CAN load to AR mag length. Duh. That's what Federals factory ammo is. Its like 2.230 +/- as memory serves ... of the rounds I mic'd.

I didn't need to make assumptions, I quoted the asinine statement you made with exactly the context you gave. It was both erroneous and stupid. Then you took my response as an attack, went to Wikipedia to get some facts so you could reply without making a fool of yourself again, and then played the victim like you do everytime someone disagrees with you.
Then again you're the guy who tried to argue to Frank that his 100 yard 224V groups can't be compared to 223 groups because the BC is different, so clearly you're in over your head...

 

[garandman]

I didn't need to make assumptions, I quoted the asinine statement you made with exactly the context you gave. It was both erroneous and stupid. Then you took my response as an attack, went to Wikipedia to get some facts so you could reply without making a fool of yourself again, and then played the victim like you do everytime someone disagrees with you.
Then again you're the guy who tried to argue to Frank that his 100 yard 224V groups can't be compared to 223 groups because the BC is different, so clearly you're in over your head...

I already said.... I'm not gonna participate in teh further derailing of this thread. I'm gonna CHOOSE to let the false claims go unchallenged.

I'd say ppl who don't understand that a bullet with a significantly higher BC is ***NOT *** comparable to a much lower BC bullet are "in over their head."

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I'd say ppl who don't understand that a bullet with a significantly higher BC is ***NOT *** comparable to a much lower BC bullet are "in over their head."

For 100 yard group shooting....

You can't make this stuff up people.

 

[padom]

BC has not a damn thing to do with group size....NOTHING

 

[lash]

BC has not a damn thing to do with group size....NOTHING

I’m afraid that you are wasting your considerable talent trying to educate a fool. It’s wasted time and effort. I tried that a while ago to no avail. He really IS that full of himself.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I just want to know if all of Page 2 was referring to .223 or 6.8 mag length? LOL, the world may never know.

Just because I couldn't make up my mind...

 

[rookie7]

@padom if a person is going to shoot 69 to 80 grain bullets out of the Valkyrie does it have a performance gain with those weights over the 223 and 223 ai to warrant going with it? I don’t have an ai, but I do load 223.

Thanks

 

[b6graham]

@padom if a person is going to shoot 69 to 80 grain bullets out of the Valkyrie does it have a performance gain with those weights over the 223 and 223 ai to warrant going with it? I don’t have an ai, but I do load 223.

Thanks

Does it even with 88s? Referring to AI especially considering Lapua makes 223 brass

 

[garandman]

Ballistic Coefficient

www.chuckhawks.com

Ballistic coefficient has to do with how efficiently a bullet flies through the air… how it handles air resistance.

Given that there is air everywhere between the muzzle and the 1st 100 yd distance target, Of course ballistic coefficient affects the accuracy of a bullet, and group size.

 

[b6graham]

At 100y. It does not.

 

[garandman]

At 100y. It does not.

A bullet doesn't encounter air resistance in the 1st 100 yd of travel ? of course it does.

A Bullets stabilization is at play during the 1st 100 yd but so is ballistic coefficient

 

[garandman]

And simply making a statement that you disagree with me or calling me an idiot or a fool is entirely unpersuasive.



In fact it's rather childish

 

[padom]

Take this bullshit somewhere else or I'm going to start handing out bans. If it doesn't pertain to 224V or 220TB bolt guns dont type it.

 

[b6graham]

And simply making a statement that you disagree with me or calling me an idiot or a fool is entirely unpersuasive.



In fact it's rather childish

So why do benchrest shooters, which have shot the smallest groups at 100 300 etc use bullets with BCs we laugh at for PRS type shooting

 

[b6graham]

Take this bullshit somewhere else or I'm going to start handing out bans. If it doesn't pertain to 224V or 220TB bolt guns dont type it.

Thoughts on 223AI with 80s and 88s compared to 224V

 

[padom]

Thoughts on 223AI with 80s and 88s compared to 224V

Well 223ai is slower (not by a ton) and you have to fire form brass but they are close...220TB on the other hand blows both of them out of the water. Slinging 90s at 3100 with a mild charge is 300fps faster

 

[Bradu]

Thoughts on 223AI with 80s and 88s compared to 224V

I'm very happy with my 223 AI although now I wish I had a longer barrel. 2858 fps with an 80 grain a max out of a 16" barrel. I have a 22-250 AI barrel to try out but I still want a 22br barrel to play with.

 

[Tunnuh]

Well 223ai is slower (not by a ton) and you have to fire form brass but they are close...220TB on the other hand blows both of them out of the water. Slinging 90s at 3100 with a mild charge is 300fps faster

I'm interested in building a 224V out of a Remington 700 short action I have just sitting in my safe. It's got the .223 bolt face. Is opening that up and having a barrel spun up for a trainer rifle/kid/wife/tag along buddy at a match rifle better than a precision .223 in your opinion, and is there a limitation in opening the bolt for the case? I shoot a lot but don't know much about the smithing side of it.

After listening to Frank's podcast about the valkyrie though, I'm seriously considering it for better barrel life to practice with, rather than putting more rounds on my match rifle.

 

[padom]

I'm interested in building a 224V out of a Remington 700 short action I have just sitting in my safe. It's got the .223 bolt face. Is opening that up and having a barrel spun up for a trainer rifle/kid/wife/tag along buddy at a match rifle better than a precision .223 in your opinion, and is there a limitation in opening the bolt for the case? I shoot a lot but don't know much about the smithing side of it.

After listening to Frank's podcast about the valkyrie though, I'm seriously considering it for better barrel life to practice with, rather than putting more rounds on my match rifle.

Can it be done, yes. Or you can buy a PTG 6.8 bolt ready to go. Yea the 224V is a great little rifle that can easily sling 88's at 2800 very accurately. Go wtih the SAMMI reamer if you plan to shoot factory ammo or go with a long freebore reamer which Keystone Accuracy has if you plan to handload to get the most out of the round.

 

[Tunnuh]

Can it be done, yes. Or you can buy a PTG 6.8 bolt ready to go. Yea the 224V is a great little rifle that can easily sling 88's at 2800 very accurately. Go wtih the SAMMI reamer if you plan to shoot factory ammo or go with a long freebore reamer which Keystone Accuracy has if you plan to handload to get the most out of the round.

Good info, much appreciated. I'll likely go with the SAMMI reamer since I would just run Hornady match for ease.

 

[bgavin]

Good info, much appreciated. I'll likely go with the SAMMI reamer since I would just run Hornady match for ease.

This is exactly what I’m doing. Getting it for a trainer and to try and get my daughter out shooting with me. Going with the sammi spec reamer for factory ammo.

 

[Tunnuh]

This is exactly what I’m doing. Getting it for a trainer and to try and get my daughter out shooting with me. Going with the sammi spec reamer for factory ammo.

It seemed like a no brainer. Longer barrel life and less reloading, so I'm wanting to get it done by the end of the year for said reasons. It's a good time for us with all the options.

 

[rookie7]

It seemed like a no brainer. Longer barrel life and less reloading, so I'm wanting to get it done by the end of the year for said reasons. It's a good time for us with all the options.

When you say it has longer barrel life what are you comparing it to?

 

[b6graham]

When you say it has longer barrel life what are you comparing it to?

Creeds

 

[padom]

When you say it has longer barrel life what are you comparing it to?

Hot rod 22 that can throw 90s at 3100 or faster....

 

[Tunnuh]

@rookie7

I'm comparing 224 valkyrie with the 220 referenced here, the .260 I had, the 6mm creedmoor I'm going to for comps. 5kish barrel life that I'veheard of is good to go for the associated bc, trajectory, and velocities.

 

[steve123]

@padom if a person is going to shoot 69 to 80 grain bullets out of the Valkyrie does it have a performance gain with those weights over the 223 and 223 ai to warrant going with it? I don’t have an ai, but I do load 223.

Thanks

Yeah, bolt action thread but....

Definitely over regular 223 at AR mag length. 223AI is getting closer at mag length but I'm going to assume it's still falling behind 224V if not by much. All in semi auto.

Some bullets were designed to shoot out of an AR from the mag and some were not. My lesson on this subject was not understanding that the old 75gr Amax wasn't designed for shooting out of a mag in an AR. When loaded to 2.230" the ogive was below the mouth of the case at mag length. So I had to sell 499 of them at a loss!

I'm just making assumptions based off my limited experience but I think that with the strong brass available for 223, like LC or Lapua, you could exceed 224V velocity levels by pushing the higher pressures that those brands of brass will handle, but only in 223AI at 2.5-ish OACL.

Out of my single shot bolt rifle with a 2.6-ish OACL, 223AI will send the 88's via a light load at 2814 fps in a 28" barrel with only 24.8 grains of Varget. When I did my ladder test 26.3 grains didn't give but normal pressures signs and even though I wasn't using the chronograph I believe the velocity would be over 2900 fps, probably closer to 2950 fps.

If one pushed 224V to the same higher pressures I'm not sure the current brass offering would hold up???

My advice would be to go with the 224V, there's no fireforming, eventually there will be stronger brass, and you can shoot any type of bullet, but as is this shorter case allows the use of longer bullets without encroaching as much in the powder column as 223.

Want to get fancy?? order a 224V AI reamer, or do like Dom did and go 22TB.

Eh, 6mmBR out of a bolt rifle is a wonderful thing, enough so I'm selling my 223AI.

 

[Kimber.204]

I'm still waiting on my 220 Thunderbolt barrel from Keystone Accuracy, I think that when I mailed my check to him I may have ended up getting in line behind the folks that took advantage of the sale around Memorial day for the .22cal barrels.

Saw Midsouth Shooter Supply was having a sale on the 88gr ELD-M so I bought a barrels worth of them. Thanks again @padom for all your time and effort on this. I'll let you all know how it shoots when I get the barrel delivered.

Ross

 

[Jackomason]

I shouldn't have found this thread! Thanks for your hard work, I know ADG is always looking for new brass to make so I wonder if they would get into something like this..

One of the guys pushing the .224 valk told me that he doesnt care how he runs it cause its given to him from federal, this doesnt mean the round isn't awesome or still cheap to shoot for that matter but its definitely a factor.

Either way I'd really like to put together a barrel in a small caliber like this for my origin but there are so many to choose from between the 6BR to the .224 valk. I'll definitely go back and read through this thread carefully. Thanks again for the ideas!

 

[lash]

I shouldn't have found this thread! Thanks for your hard work, I know ADG is always looking for new brass to make so I wonder if they would get into something like this..

One of the guys pushing the .224 valk told me that he doesnt care how he runs it cause its given to him from federal, this doesnt mean the round isn't awesome or still cheap to shoot for that matter but its definitely a factor.

Either way I'd really like to put together a barrel in a small caliber like this for my origin but there are so many to choose from between the 6BR to the .224 valk. I'll definitely go back and read through this thread carefully. Thanks again for the ideas!

In the end, choose what grabs you and don’t look back. If that doesn’t end up floating your boat, then change a barrel...maybe a bolt.

 

[padom]

Loaded up some 220TB yesterday to shoot some groups at distance and some steel today.

90smk
1x Hornady brass
205M
28.3gr Varget
0.01" off
3000 SD 6

Shot this 5 shot group @ 100yd with the can on this gun for the first time to zero. The bullet hole on the bottom left circle is my adjusted zero after shooting the 5 shot group. I was good with that and couldn't wait to shoot some groups at 300 and 500yds and bang some steel at 700yd.





We moved over to the 700yd range and hung some paper @ 300yd, 500yd and painted steel. As soon as we started driving back to the firing line the skies opened up. Torrential downpour, 50mph wind gusts, and tons of lightning. We waited it out for a good 25min and it wasnt letting up so we left. Unfortunately we didn't get to shoot at distance but will be back in the next few days to get some rounds downrange again.

 

[wildcats]

I'm considering the 220Tb i a gas gun over the 224 Val and the 22 nosler.
Is the brass avail. or should i just buy the 6mm hagar from Creedmore Sports and neck it down.

Does Keystone accuracy sell the barrels bolt and die set?

 

[padom]

I'm considering the 220Tb i a gas gun over the 224 Val and the 22 nosler.
Is the brass avail. or should i just buy the 6mm hagar from Creedmore Sports and neck it down.

Does Keystone accuracy sell the barrels bolt and die set?

Hornady 6mm Hagar brass. You just run it into the 220TB sizing die with the 223 neck bushing. Thats it. Nothing fancy. Goal is to get a permanent 220TB brass supplier. Working on that...

Keystone sells barrels and bolts. or you can send them your 6.8/224V bolt and they will headspace it to the barrel. Dies unfortunetly wont be available for another few months. They are being made. Thats the only downside right now...

 

[padom]

If I have enough interest for 220TB AR or Bolt gun barrels that want dies also I can probably get a group buy going and get them made quicker....Probably need a minimum of 10

 

[Kimber.204]

@padom the dies I have are used and a little rusty. I'd be interested in a set ....that way I can leave one set in the Dillon tool head and have the other set for the single stage.

John said he was cutting my barrel earlier this week. So hopefully next week I'll get it to the range.

 

[Ugly Dog]

Im interested in a set of dies. Put me on the list.

 

[padom]

Looks like 3 months is the quickest I'll be able to get them made after making some phone calls today.

 

[wildcats]

I spoke to John earlier today regarding a Krieger 1-6.5 twist in 220tb for an AR15 platform ,he said it would be a couple of months.
He said he will be making dies later this year...

 

[black5.3]

Tagged... im coming into this a little late. But im thinking the 220TB would be sweet to build a rem 700 action and about a 28” barrel with my ultra 7 hanging in the end.... it would be my high speed trainer/occasional hunting rig.... Sitting in my aiat chassis.

 

[padom]

Tagged... im coming into this a little late. But im thinking the 220TB would be sweet to build a rem 700 action and about a 28” barrel with my ultra 7 hanging in the end.... it would be my high speed trainer/occasional hunting rig.... Sitting in my aiat chassis.

No need for a 28" barrel. With a 26" barrel I can sling 90's at 3100 without hitting pressure...

 

[black5.3]

I usually find 29” blanks and just have them finished at 28” but im not opposed to 26” or anything. Maybe in a medium or heavy palma as well.

 

[padom]

I usually find 29” blanks and just have them finished at 28” but im not opposed to 26” or anything. Maybe in a medium or heavy palma as well.

Yea I run a can so dont need all that length for me.

I'm running a 26" button on a TL3 with a Bighorn nut in a straight bull contour. In the ACC eith the forend weights this thing doesnt move when fired. Fucking love it .

Just received the Bartlein blanks for the review to compare. Dropping off at Keystone next week to have them chambered but will be TL3 shouldered barrels this time.

 

[black5.3]

Im definitely following for more info.. how long did you wait on the bartlein blanks?

 

[padom]

Im definitely following for more info.. how long did you wait on the bartlein blanks?

Frank donates them to me for these reviews So my timeframe would have no bearing on someone placing an order with Bartlein. Again, a big thanks to Frank and the people over at Bartlein barrels for continuing to support Snipers Hide and the shooting community as a whole!

 

[black5.3]

Man that's nice! I have been pricing parts and looking more into reloading options... before i know it my credit card will have a thousand more dollars on it and parts inbound haha

 

[padom]

Got back out today as the rain was ending to shoot these rounds that I got rained out on a few days ago. Wind was switching from dead still to 0.5mil right to left.

This load performed exactly as expected. 0.25moa at 300yd and just over half MOA at 500yds with the wind gust on that last shot otherwise it was right at 0.25moa. Not much more testing to do with this barrel. I think this review shows everything. Keystones Green Mountain button barrels straight hammer, 220TB is a killer cartridge, slinging 90's over 3000 with a very mild charge and accuracy is excellent.

Time to twist this barrel off and screw on the shouldered Bartlein in 220TB. Will be interesting to see how it compares to the GM button barrel.

 

[Jackomason]

Your tinkering/testing is helping me greatly. I think I'll go with the .224 valk from keystone in the next few weeks. That TB does seem sweet but I dont think I'd be missing out on too much.

 

[padom]

Your tinkering/testing is helping me greatly. I think I'll go with the .224 valk from keystone in the next few weeks. That TB does seem sweet but I dont think I'd be missing out on too much.

Just 300-350fps, thats all. lolol. Make sure you get the long freebore 224V chamber, especially if you plan to sling heavies! Once we have dies available in the fall and hopefully a 220TB brass supplier on board the choice will be a no brainer!