224 Valkyrie vs 220 Thunderbolt

[Jackomason]

Just 300-350fps, thats all. lolol. Make sure you get the long freebore 224V chamber, especially if you plan to sling heavies! Once we have dies available in the fall and hopefully a 220TB brass supplier on board the choice will be a no brainer!

Maybe by the time I can burn through a valk barrel this will be hitting its stride. I do think you have a good thing going and I'll be keeping an eye on it but the valk just makes so much sense to me. If this small bore thing starts taking off like everyone is saying then I'm guessing the 220TB will grow quick. I'm fine taking a performance hit and get dies, brass and maybe a little more barrel life.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So 220TB with 75 (and 80?) gr bullets are AR15 mag compatible, but when you load 88/90/95s, they will be too long for an AR15 mag, but do they use the same chamber as the standard 220TB? I thought I read that someone was shooting 220Tb 75s out of the mag and sled loading heavier bullets, I assumed out of the same rifle and chamber?

 

[padom]

So 220TB with 75 (and 80?) gr bullets are AR15 mag compatible, but when you load 88/90/95s, they will be too long for an AR15 mag, but do they use the same chamber as the standard 220TB? I thought I read that someone was shooting 220Tb 75s out of the mag and sled loading heavier bullets, I assumed out of the same rifle and chamber?

2 different reamers. Keystone has a AR reamer and a long freebore reamer for 90's...you can single load them in an AR or run them in a mag out of a bolt gun..


I have to look at my.numbers, but I run a 77 TMK @ 3100-3200 or so out of a mag in my 220TB 24" Kreiger AR if I recall correctly

 

[Kimber.204]

2 different reamers. Keystone has a AR reamer and a long freebore reamer for 90's...you can single load them in an AR or run them in a mag out of a bolt gun..


I have to look at my.numbers, but I run a 77 TMK @ 3100-3200 or so out of a mag in my 220TB 24" Kreiger AR if I recall correctly

Dom, do you know the difference in free bore off the top of your head?
John Scandale told me that the bolt gun reamer was .115" free bore.
Just curious.
Thanks
Ross

 

[padom]

Dom, do you know the difference in free bore off the top of your head?
John Scandale told me that the bolt gun reamer was .115" free bore.
Just curious.
Thanks
Ross

I don't remember exactly off the top of my head. I think the AR is something like .055 or .065 freebore

 

[Kimber.204]

Who just had a new barrel in .220 Thunderbolt delivered from Keystone Accuracy today?????

THIS GUY!!!!!

I'll have some time to get is screwed on tomorrow and maybe even a range trip with some of my AR loads.

 

[Kimber.204]

Using the data from @padom I did a quick work up with 88gr ELD-M and Varget.

Powder Charge Velocity
28.0 2929
28.3 2946
28.6 2982
28.9 3005
29.2 3069
29.4 3059
29.5 3080
29.6 3092
29.8 3102 - no pressure signs

Using a Magneto Speed sporter, all rounds same point of impact at 110yds .75moa group
I'm going to follow this up with a closer look at the upper range. I'm curious where the ceiling is.

 

[Ugly Dog]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but assuming this was your first firing on newly built brass. Would you anticipate any velocity changes going forward with fire formed (second shot) brass?

 

[padom]

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but assuming this was your first firing on newly built brass. Would you anticipate any velocity changes going forward with fire formed (second shot) brass?

It should speed up some. My 90smk with same powder charges are roughly 40-50fps faster than those numbers

 

[Kimber.204]

It should speed up some. My 90smk with same powder charges are roughly 40-50fps faster than those numbers

Also, these numbers show shots 7 through 15....only 15 rounds through the barrel, it could speed up some. I'm just going to shoot it for a while and after a couple/few hundred rounds I'll look at the numbers again. and update you all. This is my first Green Mountain barrel, so I don't know if they tend to speed up or not, but I've had two Kreigers and a factory FN that all sped up around the 200/250 round mark.

 

[MarinePMI]

JME, but GM barrels tend to speed up/tighten up right around 100rds or so...

 

[DarinC]

Any updates Padom?

 

[Kimber.204]

@DarinC well, Dom posted his 224 Valkyrie barrel in the for sale section a while ago, and I haven't seen him post the 220 Thunderbolt barrel....so we know what he likes.

I've had my 220 Thunderbolt barrel for a little while now and I've put not quite a hundred rounds through it. I got out and shot a practice match (NRA Highpower) this morning but got pushed off the range by a thunder storm. The 220 is awesome. Such light recoil it's almost cheating for the speed and accuracy. Last year I shot an Eliseo chassis in 6mm Comp Match and I even had a 95gr reduced load for standing, the 220 is much less felt recoil with the 88gr ELD-M's going 3050 - 3100fps.

 

[padom]

Yep, here's the update. Received both the 224 1:7 MTU blanks from Bartlein as promised to compare to the Green Mountain button barrels. The 224V I just picked up and its screwed onto one of my TL3's. It was chambered exactly like the GM with my long freebore reamer. Going to load up 50rd of the load that worked best in my GM and then I will do load development using PP2000 and 90smk to see how that does.


Here's the Bartlein 220TB, which is 90% finished, just needs the chamber put in it. Will be picking that up next week.

 

[lash]

Yep, here's the update. Received both the 224 1:7 MTU blanks from Bartlein as promised to compare to the Green Mountain button barrels. The 224V I just picked up and its screwed onto one of my TL3's. It was chambered exactly like the GM with my long freebore reamer. Going to load up 50rd of the load that worked best in my GM and then I will do load development using PP2000 and 90smk to see how that does.


Here's the Bartlein 220TB, which is 90% finished, just needs the chambered in it. Will be picking that up next week.

I just want to say, Damn! Nice selection of barrels there.

That is all.

 

[Lunchbox27]

Lol, at first I thought that was your bench and all your barrels.

 

[DarinC]

Thank you Kimber and Dom. Curious how the brass and dies conversation progresses as this keeps going.

With Hornady working so hard with their long range offerings, and already making the Hagar brass, I’d love to see them pick up the cartridge to compete with the V. But I know that’s a huge step

As always, thanks guys, intently following.

 

[cleric]

Any further updates...

Was thinking of a 224 but 220tb seems interesting


Anyone tried the new 95grain? Looks like only 1:7 is available. But I am not sure the velocity will be there to take advantage of the higher bc

 

[V42]

I'm curious about the 95 Matchking as well. I shot a 24" Krieger/6.5 twist chambered in Valkyrie on an AR in some matches this year and really liked it. That got me to thinking about a bolt gun in 22 PDK to handle the 95's and research on that cartridge led me to the 220 Thunderbolt. I don't even know if the 95's would be necessary. The 90's flew well out of the 24" at 2650 fps (consistently hit an 18x18" target at 1175 yds in the match last weekend), if the TB can get them to 3100, that may be sufficient.

 

[padom]

Alright guys I have both the 220TB and 224V Bartlein barrels spun up and back here in the shop. I just screwed the new Bartlein freshly chambered in 220TB on my TL3 and ready for testing. Big thank you to Frank Green and Bartlein barrels for donating these 2 blanks for the review/testing.

Ill go ahead and shoot the final load from the Green Mountain Button 220TB barrel to break it in. Put 50rd or so through it then Ill do a new OCW probably 0.6gr below and 0.6gr above my current load to confirm Im in the center of the node with the 90smk. Ill then do some OCW and seating depth testing with 95smk and 2000MR.

After Im done with this I have the Bartlein 224V chambered with my long freebore reamer here ready to be tested next. Looking forward to seeing how these Bartleins compare to the GM buttons. If the nodes are the same, if the nodes are wider and what the speeds look like in comparison and obviously accuracy. Stay Tuned!!

 

[Jackomason]

I just got my GM barrel that was cut with your reamer in last week. Cant wait.

 

[padom]

I just got my GM barrel that was cut with your reamer in last week. Cant wait. View attachment 7161776

Nice man! Load development should be done for you if your shooting 88 ELD!

 

[Jackomason]

Nice man! Load development should be done for you if your shooting 88 ELD!

Will definitely try CFE223 and run it through its paces. Also want to see if I can make H4895 work better and maybe try a shooters world powder.

 

[padom]

Will definitely try CFE223 and run it through its paces. Also want to see if I can make H4895 work better and maybe try a shooters world powder.

H4895 shot pretty bad with 88's. With 80's H4895 was really good.

 

[padom]

Got the new Bartlein 220TB out today to get some initial rounds down the tube. I shot the leftover rounds I had loaded up for the Green Mountain 220TB barrel reviewed earlier in this thread. I had 2 batches of leftover ammo, everything being equal, except one batch was loaded with Federal 205M primers and one batch was loaded with CCI 450 primers.

All shot from the bench at 100yds over the LabRadar. I shot a 3x5 with each batch of ammo with no can, just my QD brake. I then shoot a 2x5 with each batch with my Rugged Surge 7.62 installed.

The ammo shot about 0.5moa with some groups better and some groups worse. Can see vertical in the groupings so it appears this load needs tweaked for this Bartlein. I shot 13rds through the new barrel before shooting both of these 5x5's. I now have 63rds down the barrel. Ill load up a new OCW with Varget and the 90smk and 205M's since the SD across 25rds was half the SD of the CCI 450 loads (7 vs 14)..


This is the first 5 shot group on the zeroing target. I shot 7 shots to get my rough then shot this 5 shot group








This is the first 5x5 shot with the 205M batch - 0.501" AGG







This is the second 5x5 shot with the CCI 450 batch - 0.458" AGG

 

[DeadeyeD’rick]

Thanks for pointing me this way. Are 8208 or varget contenders for powder here?

 

[padom]

Thanks for pointing me this way. Are 8208 or varget contenders for powder here?

Varget is the go to powder as shown on the above targets.. RE15 also. 8208 is decent but accurate and single digit SD's with Varget is stupid easy

 

[DeadeyeD’rick]

Awesome, looked right over those targets.

 

[padom]

Got out today to do a short OCW just below and above my current load on the new Bartlein. Before shooting it, I had 12rd loaded up of 28.6gr to foul the barrel some since I cleaned it this morning. It had 63rd down it. Ran a few wet patches then a brass brush dipped in Butch's down the bore then dry patched it out before heading to the range this morning.

Here is the 12 fouling rounds. Fired from left to right. Heck of a group fresh out of the safe cold bore and cleaned barrel!






Here is my mini OCW going just below and just above my current load. Accuracy is excellent. Barrel is really settling in.






Next up, Im going to do a full OCW with PP2000MR and 95smk. Then we will take the 90smk and 95smk final loads and shoot them at distance.

 

[DeadeyeD’rick]

I’ve used the OCW method quite a few time with success. My last load development I used the Satterlee method with mixed results. The first time was successful and easy to find a good node. This last time was quite different as I need to start over on my 6 creed development. Have you tried the Satterlee method?

 

[sandwarrior]

I think I'm gonna take this out an' kill me one of those wild beasts. ?

Just kidding, I'm still trying to figure out how you can get so much out of a cartridge that was intended to fit in an AR. I realize this is the bolt gun section, but I'm thinking if the loads were made compatible for both, there would be a lot of restrictions not normally inherent to a bolt gun.

Any word yet of factory "off the shelf" ammo yet?

 

[padom]

View attachment 7164463

I think I'm gonna take this out an' kill me one of those wild beasts. ?

Just kidding, I'm still trying to figure out how you can get so much out of a cartridge that was intended to fit in an AR. I realize this is the bolt gun section, but I'm thinking if the loads were made compatible for both, there would be a lot of restrictions not normally inherent to a bolt gun.

Any word yet of factory "off the shelf" ammo yet?

Because Keystone has 2 different reamers. An AR reamer with a shorter freebore for AR15's and a long freebore bolt gun reamer. When you go from .050" to .115" you can get that long 90/95smk up out of the case which gives a lot more case capacity. This allows more powder, which equals more speed, with no pressure issues......

No factory ammo. Goal is more brass players right now.

 

[sandwarrior]

I see what you are saying there, but with the case at roughly 43mm(?) does that leave you enough room to seat a 88/90 gr. to mag length?

That was one of the reasons I went with the .224 Val that I'm building now. I didn't know about the .220 TB, or I might have gone with that instead.

 

[padom]

I see what you are saying there, but with the case at roughly 43mm(?) does that leave you enough room to seat a 88/90 gr. to mag length?

That was one of the reasons I went with the .224 Val that I'm building now. I didn't know about the .220 TB, or I might have gone with that instead.

Your question is hard to answer without knowing the platform. Are you asking about mag length with heavies in a AR or bolt gun? In an AR, no, because of the longer case vs a 224V you cannot run heavies in a mag (88/90). But you can run 75/77's at much higher speeds than you ever could in a 223 or 224V AR. For example, my 220TB AR15 load is a 77 TMK @ 3135 SD 3 with sub 0.5moa accuracy consistently out to 700yds. 100yd 5 shot groups are regularly 0.25moa. All shot out of a AR15 magazine.

Bolt gun, I shoot heavies as shown in this review thread out of a AICS pattern magazine.

 

[sandwarrior]

Yeah sorry, my question was running heavier/longer bullets in an AR-15 mag. length.

Your load is definitely 200-400 fps above what can be done with a .223. Where often bolt magazine length gets limited also. That...I don't understand. A tight but long throat still works pretty well for accuracy. No one is shooting super tight accuracy from the short throat they sell without handloading for their rifle (bolt gun). Meaning there isn't much in the way of really good match ammo to run through a bolt gun without at least giving up velocity.

I think you have a good idea here. My restriction is still mag length for bolt and AR. On another thread someone mentioned getting AI mags that run 2.550" internally. I'd love doing that out of a bolt gun. Probably an AR too, but that would take a huge amount of changes.

 

[bgavin]

I’m loving my 224 Valkyrie but when you get someone on board with brass and dies I’m on board. I’ll be calling keystone for a Krieger in 220tb.
Padom have you seen the new Berger 85.5 hybrid?

 

[Huckleberry75]

I am thinking this would be a screamer with the 65gn SGK or 69 TMK for predators and whitetails in an 8 or 9 tw bbl.

 

[MarinePMI]

It's what I'll be using for PD's this summer. 75gr Sierra TMK's out of a suppressed 24" LH GT Bartlein Origin, should make for some interesting long range shooting.

 

[DarinC]

@padom - any word on getting any other brass manufacturers on board with the 220 tb?

 

[padom]

@padom - any word on getting any other brass manufacturers on board with the 220 tb?

Not yet. Keystone just about has their new shop up and running. Once they start making dies then I can push back on the brass angle

 

[IHFarmer07]

Not yet. Keystone just about has their new shop up and running. Once they start making dies then I can push back on the brass angle

Great.....I’m about to jump ship on the Valkyrie

 

[Kimber.204]

I shoot with one of the guys that works at Peterson Brass and I asked him about the possibility of Peterson doing a run of 220 Thunderbolt. He said that it wasn't impossible, but the initial order for an odd head sized case was ....... LARGE.

 

[cleric]

Wonder what the definition of large is...

 

[padom]

Wonder what the definition of large is...

100,000 minimum most likely

 

[cleric]

I figured it would be some number like that...but when case companies talk large its going to be big


i really want a smooth operating 22 cal like the 220 thunder just don’t think I am buying anytime soon

 

[padom]

Brass is available now. Just have to run it in the FL FL bushing die to neck down from 6mm to 224.. no neck turning or trimming or anything.

 

[Kimber.204]

When I bought my 220 Thunderbolt AR upper it came with some new Gen 1 Hagar brass. It's great stuff, tight primer pockets good accuracy, etc.

Edited to add: (sold the AR and now just have my Mausingfield with a Savage prefit from Keystone Accuracy)

But I bought some new Hagar brass from Creedmoor Sports this summer and I tried my same load in it and I started blowing primers.
To be fair....I should have done a work up for this new brass, but it weighted the same and was the same length as the Gen 1.
When we had some "warm" weather a few days ago, I got out and testing the same load with a CCI 450 instead of a Fed 205GM primer. I had an average speed of 3095fps, SD 6, ES 14 with the CCI 450 and Varget.....zero pressure signs. The cooler temp and that load of Varget with the Fed 205GM primer did not blow any primers, but I did have a few that looked like they started to leak. I think that I'll use the rest of those up this winter for practice loads.

 

[Dakotayote]

When I bought my 220 Thunderbolt AR upper it came with some new Gen 1 Hagar brass. It's great stuff, tight primer pockets good accuracy, etc.
But I bought some new Hagar brass from Creedmoor Sports this summer and I tried my same load in it and I started blowing primers.
To be fair....I should have done a work up for this new brass, but it weighted the same and was the same length as the Gen 1.
When we had some "warm" weather a few days ago, I got out and testing the same load with a CCI 450 instead of a Fed 205GM primer. I had an average speed of 3095fps, SD 6, ES 14 with the CCI 450 and Varget.....zero pressure signs. The cooler temp and that load of Varget with the Fed 205GM primer did not blow any primers, but I did have a few that looked like they started to leak. I think that I'll use the rest of those up this winter for prac

I’m going to preface my reply with a warning that I’m a newbie to the forum and this thread was the first one to catch my attention. Go any of you see any potential for this to be a effective hunting bullet or is this purely for target practice. Do any of you see the 220TB (Out of bolt action rifle) as a effective medium range coyote bullet. Say 300-500 yards. It’s pushing a heavier bullet than a 22-250 but not as fast. Just wondering what most shooters intended use was for this cartridge that has some impressive numbers.

 

[padom]

I’m going to preface my reply with a warning that I’m a newbie to the forum and this thread was the first one to catch my attention. Go any of you see any potential for this to be a effective hunting bullet or is this purely for target practice. Do any of you see the 220TB (Out of bolt action rifle) as a effective medium range coyote bullet. Say 300-500 yards. It’s pushing a heavier bullet than a 22-250 but not as fast. Just wondering what most shooters intended use was for this cartridge that has some impressive numbers.

It's a cartridge not a bullet. You can load with any 224 bullet you want. With a 90smk at 3000fps you can imagine the speed of lighter Varmint bullets

 

[IHFarmer07]

I’m going to preface my reply with a warning that I’m a newbie to the forum and this thread was the first one to catch my attention. Go any of you see any potential for this to be a effective hunting bullet or is this purely for target practice. Do any of you see the 220TB (Out of bolt action rifle) as a effective medium range coyote bullet. Say 300-500 yards. It’s pushing a heavier bullet than a 22-250 but not as fast. Just wondering what most shooters intended use was for this cartridge that has some impressive numbers.

Instead of it being a medium range shooting/hunting chambering it’s more of a long range shooting/hunting chambering.....your 22-250 may be able to shoot a 40-55gr bullet 3300-3600fps but that is not going to keep you stable beyond 500-600yrds. The .220TB WILL definitely be effective at medium range and long range. It depends on what platform your wanting this in.....I think it’s a great improvement over the Valkyrie.

I’d say with a heavier bullet going a little slower than a 22-250 you won’t have the pelt damage either with the .220TB but will have better knock down because of the heavier bullets

With my Valkyrie shooting 80eldms 2950-2970, I have many great hits/kills with the combo. The matter of fact, I have made the longest kills and hits on steel with it. If the Valkyrie would have better brass available it probably would be better but still would be lacking the speed that would be nice. 600 yrds with my Valkyrie is easy.....too easy.

I would definitely use this as a hunting round in both an ar15 or bolt action platform.....matter of fact it might take the place of my Valkyrie if better brass don’t come into play soon for it, maybe a new barrel idk, haven’t decided. But the .220TB is definitely on my watch/want list.