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Chasing Gear, the broken record of shooting lighter calibers
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
Guys,
Balance is the key and alot of you are talking light already and then about going LIGHTER that is not my point at all
You guys took the context and change it to the lightest thing possible, not what I am saying
Absolutely it is possible to go too light, and too far…
You all threw balance out the window, and went to the extreme edges which is what someone above said, the pendulum swinging too far both ways
I means come on, take a minute to use your brains, for example, what is the lightest a 6.5 bullet weight goes down too… You can get a 90gr 6.5 bullet, shit goes light, that won’t beat a 140gr at 1000 yards… give me a fucking break and try thinking about it logically
If a 6mm at 105, 108, 115 is awesome, why not a 6.5 at the same weight range ? They make them, Barnes has a 115gr, Lehigh has a 110 solid that is super nice. No dont’ want to pay for a solid, Lapua has a 108 in 6.5 so why aren‘t people just changing your loads vs moving to a 6mm ?
We have to get more creative, stop doing the same shit because the guy before me did it that way…
We dont need a 300WM today because a 6.5CM will get the same job done, think about that
Balance is the key and alot of you are talking light already and then about going LIGHTER that is not my point at all
You guys took the context and change it to the lightest thing possible, not what I am saying
Absolutely it is possible to go too light, and too far…
You all threw balance out the window, and went to the extreme edges which is what someone above said, the pendulum swinging too far both ways
I means come on, take a minute to use your brains, for example, what is the lightest a 6.5 bullet weight goes down too… You can get a 90gr 6.5 bullet, shit goes light, that won’t beat a 140gr at 1000 yards… give me a fucking break and try thinking about it logically
If a 6mm at 105, 108, 115 is awesome, why not a 6.5 at the same weight range ? They make them, Barnes has a 115gr, Lehigh has a 110 solid that is super nice. No dont’ want to pay for a solid, Lapua has a 108 in 6.5 so why aren‘t people just changing your loads vs moving to a 6mm ?
We have to get more creative, stop doing the same shit because the guy before me did it that way…
We dont need a 300WM today because a 6.5CM will get the same job done, think about that
I completely agree with this and been preaching it for years. A lot of comps around here are 5-600 yards with plates put at random ranges. 304-456 yards etc. does anyone think a 140 will outperform a 120 at this style of comp?
People get caught up in the high bc numbers without balancing. A heavy high bc looks good on paper but a flat shooting light bullet will win the day, especially if the cartridge can’t get the velocity needed to benefit from the high bc. Lots of times, the high bc doesn’t even come into beneficial play till close to transonic. Just punch numbers in your calculator and see.
People get caught up in the high bc numbers without balancing. A heavy high bc looks good on paper but a flat shooting light bullet will win the day, especially if the cartridge can’t get the velocity needed to benefit from the high bc. Lots of times, the high bc doesn’t even come into beneficial play till close to transonic. Just punch numbers in your calculator and see.
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Exactly the big BC effects happen downrange, think about truing your software,
We true Muzzle Velocity at 600 yards, and BC at 800 +
That change in BC at 800 + does not affect the data in your program at 400 yards, or 200 yards, velocity does. That is clue, that speed early is a better a play.
We need to adjust our sweet spot to 600 - 800 yards, that is actually a bit of an increase, seems short, but its a nice place to consider. You want to own every target of opportunity at this point in the range. Once you own this, you move out. (I know we move out, but you focus here)
Own the ranges, sub MOA on up...
We true Muzzle Velocity at 600 yards, and BC at 800 +
That change in BC at 800 + does not affect the data in your program at 400 yards, or 200 yards, velocity does. That is clue, that speed early is a better a play.
We need to adjust our sweet spot to 600 - 800 yards, that is actually a bit of an increase, seems short, but its a nice place to consider. You want to own every target of opportunity at this point in the range. Once you own this, you move out. (I know we move out, but you focus here)
Own the ranges, sub MOA on up...
Someone set the standard long ago that high bc sells bullets. I see guys bragging about having the newest big heavy high bc bullet, some running a 156 in a creed at 2550 fps.
I’m smoking them to 1200 with a 130 at 2950.
I’m smoking them to 1200 with a 130 at 2950.
That is the thing,
We know weight helps with the BC, and we know heavier will work, but BC is tied to MV there is no two ways about it.
This is why we don't shoot a 230gr Berger out of a 308...
We know weight helps with the BC, and we know heavier will work, but BC is tied to MV there is no two ways about it.
This is why we don't shoot a 230gr Berger out of a 308...
The focus has to be on the sweet spot I agree. I was shooting 175s out of a 20" 308. Looked at a ballistic calc compared with a decent 155, only shooting to 1,000y and thought why am I doing this? Obviously not the most ballistically capable caliber but the point still stands.
Federal made the 6.5 gmm with the 130 Berger for a reason.
Norma 130 GT's. When those are gone, I'll likely move to the Sierra's, since they (used to be) more easily found than the Normas.
I did the same with a 18” ar 10. There was no benefit over a 150 with a 178. I went for flat shooting within the capable range of the platform.
The 123 ELDM is a good performer in my x47. I find it easier to spot impacts with them over the 140/147's that I also regularly shoot. My accurate load with the 123's with Varget at 2900ish is around 150 fps faster than my go-to load for the 140 ELDM's and 200 fps faster than the 147's. I know that the higher velocity of the lighter bullet is supposed to make up for wind deflection over the slower, heavier bullets, but I always seem to have higher hit percentages on windy days with the heavier bullets at distance. It could just be that my rifle likes the heavier bullets better though.
I do think the sweet spot for my x47 is the 130's, but I have only shot the Berger 130's, I cannot comment on the 130 ELD's.
This and recoil with 175s is significant with a warm load. I saw no advantage in wind with the 175s out to 1000 anyway. Bought a bunch of 155 smks for 30 cents around awhile back.
If your gun likes ‘em and you get them on sale for 30 cents apiece, it makes sense.
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I've had some experience with the 55gr 20 cal Berger. I've seen some shooters have good success with it and some have bad experiences.
First off this bullet requires a faster twist than 40's like around 8-10 twist.
There is a guy on a BR forum that placed high in a 1000Y match with a cartridge based off 6mmBR using 55's. As well as some coyote hunters with good results.
I had a 20x47L barrel done for this bullet in a 9 twist Krieger. In less than 300 rounds bullets started blowing up. My load was 3830 fps and they shot great at first. I tried slowing them down to 3600 fps but to no avail. The thing I noticed is that the barrel got very HOT very FAST! I cleaned the barrel down to bare metal and polished it with BoreBright but that didn't work either. I did discover that for whatever reason the 40 vmax going 4100 fps worked fine for varminting thankfully or I'd been SOL.
Later I got into a used 20-221AI with low round count. On 19gr of powder it sends 32's at 3750 out of a 21" barrel. Takes forever for the barrel to get hot, gets long barrel life, VERY low recoil and noise, very precise, and awesome out to 500Y, though it does blow in the wind due to low BC at 500Y. Most fun little round I've owned! Guess which round I like better?!
I think these 55's are best below 3500 fps or so but that's my IMHO.
Back when 224V came out my main concern was brass quality vs the already strong Lapua 6.5 Grendel and 6mmBR brass but now it looks like the brass for 224V isn't bad afterall.
Then there were reamer design problems at first which seem to be resolved.
Also some bullets problems like the 88's when they first came out.
It looks like a 224V with 85.5gr bullets would be a great combo nowadays?!
I already had an AR in 6mmFatRat so I just stuck with that using 95's at 2870 fps.
But I like these low recoiling and long barrel life cartridges that use bullets with decent BC's going reasonably fast using less powder.
6mmBR is one such round and is an easy button type of cartridge. Doesn't have the prowess 6x47L has but has plenty of benefits.
I'd own a 224V if starting over. Enough more than 223 to be interesting without being a barrel burner.
Then there were reamer design problems at first which seem to be resolved.
Also some bullets problems like the 88's when they first came out.
It looks like a 224V with 85.5gr bullets would be a great combo nowadays?!
I already had an AR in 6mmFatRat so I just stuck with that using 95's at 2870 fps.
But I like these low recoiling and long barrel life cartridges that use bullets with decent BC's going reasonably fast using less powder.
6mmBR is one such round and is an easy button type of cartridge. Doesn't have the prowess 6x47L has but has plenty of benefits.
I'd own a 224V if starting over. Enough more than 223 to be interesting without being a barrel burner.
My custom .223 utilizes a 28" 1:7" barrel. I run 80 grain Berger VLD's at approximately 2900 fps. It is an MTU profile. No brake required as recoil is minimal. I really enjoy this rifle.
I'm inspired by this thread and will be re-barreling my 6 GT rig that utilizes the ungainly 109 grain Bergers to fire these 15.5 grain beauties! I'm targeting 5,000 fps.
Who makes this barrel shank?Do you need a 10 round magazine on your rifle?
If not, get a Blaser R8.
A Blaser R8 in 308 is app 3" shorter than a 700sa (and almost 4" shorter than a 700la) when both rifles have the same barrel length.
The R8 with 24" barrels in 22lr, 223rem and 338 Lapua mag has the same total rifle length.
Choice of caliber, given same barrel length, do not affect rifle overall length.
Any barrelsmith can now make barrels for the R8.
Blaser barrel extention for custom barrels:
I haven't done it, but I thought 6.5 Grendel could be used...not that it is any more available at the moment.
I found some hornady 224 valk brass for sale the other day so I bought that. I also ended up buying loaded ammo that I didn't particularly want just so I could use the brass later. Not ideal but better than nothing.
You can always do the "Mexican match" approach with the loaded ammo. i.e. American Eagle ammo, pull the bullet, and seat with another bullet.
I haven't shopped for 224 brass in a while. What's the story behind the starline stuff? Have they stopped making it or is it just spotty availability?
I’ve wondered about the starline brass as well. It seems like they’ve stopped making it… at least for the time being.
I stocked up on Starline 224V brass awhile back when Midway and Midsouth both were blowing out 250 count bags of it.
Less case capacity than the Fed and Hornady offerings but it works well enough. And brass life is much longer in a bolt gun than in my former White Oak gas gun upper…
Less case capacity than the Fed and Hornady offerings but it works well enough. And brass life is much longer in a bolt gun than in my former White Oak gas gun upper…
I ordered directly from Starline 4 months ago or so...took a couple weeks but I got it.
Didn't Ackley try to make a .17 go to 5k? Think he only got to 4500 or so
Edit: found it, it was a .22
ackley
www.gswagner.com
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you can go to 5,000 with a 20x6.8. Not many bullets can stand the speed and barrels won't likely last long. No idea what the pressure is with it. I keep mine down to about 3700 with the 39-40 grain bullets.
Bene following this thread. Thinking like frank. Ever notice that there is a "sweet spot" in just about anything we do when looking at performance. Shooting, racing, underwater basket weaving. There seams to always be some kinda of trade off in Regards to performance. The trick looks like balance. Prime example is load development. Min to max charge weight, do choose fastest velocity or best group. This reply fueled by bourbon.(my only day off)
Theres also a small/medium/large factor to me. Maybe an extra large if you need to scratch that itch.
I run one action,chassis, scope with multiple barrels. This means if I'm not getting enough out of one caliber I can step it up to the next. There's no need to push the limits of one rather than just getting the right cartridge for the job.
We push the limits of our calibers like our wives push the limits of what the call brownies. No those gluten free, sugar free squares are not brownies... and your 6.5 creed is not an elk gun.
The moral is, don't make it something it's not and you'll be a lot happier with its preformance.
Are you trying to say that we should use the right tool for the job at hand? That’s crazy talk right there!
My buddy does this, sometimes when I’m prepping Lapua brass I think hes onto something.
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6.8spc and starline also has 6.8 basic brass available for backorder but I dont know the extent of work it would take to form from it.
More than that. Cause people genuinely think a 6.5CM shooting the heaviest bullet possible is the right tool for every job.Are you trying to say that we should use the right tool for the job at hand? That’s crazy talk right there!
I guess that's probably a marketing issue but evaluation and staying in the lane is a real difficulty in the shooting/hunting community.
Was able to shoot this with a new GAP built 22GT at a 600yd match Sunday. Virgin Alpha brass 90gr Bergers @ 3250 fps... suppressed.
I always thought that muzzle devices were against the rules in IBS but it looks like it just cant direct gases back more than 90°, interesting and great shooting!Was able to shoot this with a new GAP built 22GT at a 600yd match Sunday. Virgin Alpha brass 90gr Bergers @ 3250 fps... suppressed.
1.443” group eh? Wow! What is that, 0.23 MOA?Was able to shoot this with a new GAP built 22GT at a 600yd match Sunday. Virgin Alpha brass 90gr Bergers @ 3250 fps... suppressed.
I keep seeing a duck shape in that plaque (head on left) quack quack
Hornady's G7 BC numbers show to me that for PRS competition, the sweet spot for the 6.5 Creedmoor under Mach 1.75 (longer range -under 1900 FPS ) is the 130 ELD. This I surmise taking into account both bullet BC and recoil. Recoil is really an important part in PRS competition where you want to see the bullet's flight as soon as possible to be able to track misses that might not give you a "splash" indication, as in flat terrain or wooded terrain. When most of the shots in competition are in the 400-800 yard range, with then some as far out as 12-1400, the odds are heavy for tracking a bullet's path as quickly as possible - less recoil.
Interestingly Hornady makes the bullet, but does not have an ammo offering in that weight, offering the 140 instead.
See their page here:
https://www.hornady.com/support/ballistic-coefficient
They also don't offer, and have no plans to offer that bullet in bulk. Very annoying. I switched back to the 130eldm since Berger 130 Hybrids are over $60 per 100 when you can find them. To this day they are the easiest to load, most accurate 130 I've ever shot.
Who knew I was cool 10+ years ago shooting 120-130 in my 260/6.5CM. I did go overboard with a 28” barrel 260 and a 100gr. It’s a screamer and kills deer well. I have boxes of 140s on the shelf but don’t feel the need to load them up. If I hang onto them long enough someone will want the 140 Amax for nostalgia.
