.224 Valkyrie

#101
This is probably a dumb question, but just how close is .224V to factory 6.5CM ELD-M? I am building a match bolt rifle that will pretty much just be eating factory ammo and am wondering if this would make sense in comparison to factory 6.5CM since, as others have stated, I can't think of a reason NOT to go with .224V if it's for competitive use, and I DON'T reload. If they both shoot the same, is there a reason I shouldn't go with the lighter recoiling one, given my circumstances?
 
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#102
SuperSneakySniper said:
This is probably a dumb question, but just how close is .224V to factory 6.5CM ELD-M? I am building a match bolt rifle that will pretty much just be eating factory ammo and am wondering if this would make sense in comparison to factory 6.5CM since, as others have stated, I can't think of a reason NOT to go with .224V if it's for competitive use, and I DON'T reload. If they both shoot the same, is there a reason I shouldn't go with the lighter recoiling one, given my circumstances?
Click to expand...

BC is the advantage with the 6.5 Creed. The new eldm is around .648 and the 224v is in the .560’s.

Thats pretty substantial for me if I was solely choosing a round to compete with. If I was looking for more of a fun do it all round (plink,trainer,small/medium game hunting) this would be it over a 308 though.

 
#103
SuperSneakySniper said:
This is probably a dumb question, but just how close is .224V to factory 6.5CM ELD-M? I am building a match bolt rifle that will pretty much just be eating factory ammo and am wondering if this would make sense in comparison to factory 6.5CM since, as others have stated, I can't think of a reason NOT to go with .224V if it's for competitive use, and I DON'T reload. If they both shoot the same, is there a reason I shouldn't go with the lighter recoiling one, given my circumstances?
Click to expand...

Don't forget about the 6mm Creedmoor. Possibly even the 6.5 PRC. Both will out perform 6.5 Ceedmoor and .224V with factory ammo.
 
#104
I don't see this being a big hit at PRS style matches, at least not at matches that go out to or beyond 1k. I shoot 223 and 22-250 regularly with 75-80 grain bullets out to 1k and it gets damn hard to hear let alone see impacts on clean, freshly painted steel plates once you go much past 700 yards. A little wind and/or mirage is all it takes and your left wondering hit you hit or not. Ballistically, if the 90 grain bullets can make 2900fps it would match my rather sedate 6.5 creedmoor match load I was shooting this past year that launched 140ELD's at 2700. That's looking at wind drift only, the 224 would need about a mil less elevation but elevation isn't usually a concern unless the targets of of unknown distance, which I have yet to run into at a match.

That said, I see a 224 valkyrie in my future in a AR build once I see handloaders can get some good velocity using 75 & 80 ELD's without trashing the brass.

 
#105
Niles Coyote said:
I don't see this being a big hit at PRS style matches, at least not at matches that go out to or beyond 1k. I shoot 223 and 22-250 regularly with 75-80 grain bullets out to 1k and it gets damn hard to hear let alone see impacts on clean, freshly painted steel plates once you go much past 700 yards. A little wind and/or mirage is all it takes and your left wondering hit you hit or not. Ballistically, if the 90 grain bullets can make 2900fps it would match my rather sedate 6.5 creedmoor match load I was shooting this past year that launched 140ELD's at 2700. That's looking at wind drift only, the 224 would need about a mil less elevation but elevation isn't usually a concern unless the targets of of unknown distance, which I have yet to run into at a match.

That said, I see a 224 valkyrie in my future in a AR build once I see handloaders can get some good velocity using 75 & 80 ELD's without trashing the brass.
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I don't see brass being trashed because it is not a rebated rim. I am looking to put one of these together myself. I hope some more companies announce they are making barrels for it.
 
#106
GGK said:
I don't see brass being trashed because it is not a rebated rim. I am looking to put one of these together myself. I hope some more companies announce they are making barrels for it.
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I hope the brass works out great. I just have a few bitter memories from all the FC marked 308 brass in my possession that have loose primer pockets... after two or three hand loads.
 
#107
Niles Coyote said:
I hope the brass works out great. I just have a few bitter memories from all the FC marked 308 brass in my possession that have loose primer pockets... after two or three hand loads.
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I am expecting this is gonna be small primer so I feel the pockets might be ok even with the softer FC brass. But at the same time I don't expect Federal to be the only one making ammo for this so other brass options will probably be available.

Even so running this brass in a gas gun is probably gonna tear up the brass in 4-6 firings anyway.
 
#108
GGK said:
But at the same time I don't expect Federal to be the only one making ammo for this so other brass options will probably be available.
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That what I am hoping for as well if the federal brass turns out to be soft, 5.56 brass doesn't seem to share that characteristic. fingers crossed it will be good from the start...

 
#110
One thing to keep in mind, I've already contacted JP Rifles and they will be using barrels with rifle +2" gas system lengths for this cartridge... I doubt many will at the start, just like they did with the 22 nosler.
 
#111
Niles Coyote said:
I don't see this being a big hit at PRS style matches, at least not at matches that go out to or beyond 1k. I shoot 223 and 22-250 regularly with 75-80 grain bullets out to 1k and it gets damn hard to hear let alone see impacts on clean, freshly painted steel plates once you go much past 700 yards. A little wind and/or mirage is all it takes and your left wondering hit you hit or not. Ballistically, if the 90 grain bullets can make 2900fps it would match my rather sedate 6.5 creedmoor match load I was shooting this past year that launched 140ELD's at 2700. That's looking at wind drift only, the 224 would need about a mil less elevation but elevation isn't usually a concern unless the targets of of unknown distance, which I have yet to run into at a match.

That said, I see a 224 valkyrie in my future in a AR build once I see handloaders can get some good velocity using 75 & 80 ELD's without trashing the brass.
Click to expand...


Can the 90 SMK be pushed must past 2700-2800? In the past I thought it always had a reputation as being a pretty thin jacket and had issues pushing it faster then 2700.
 
#112
Pusher591 said:
Can the 90 SMK be pushed must past 2700-2800? In the past I thought it always had a reputation as being a pretty thin jacket and had issues pushing it faster then 2700.
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I can't answer that. I have zero experience with 90 grain 224 bullets. I was using 2900 fps for my comparison because I thought I had seen some one post that velocity and it was the highest I remember seeing. I do recall many posts in the past talking about how fickle the 90 grain bullets can be with different twists and velocities. When I get a barrel I doubt I will be using anything but 75 and 80 grain ELD's unless I pick up some factory ammo.
 
#113
I posted earlier that I got pretty good velocities using the 90gr SMK in a 223 Ackley with a 28" tube. 2900fps is certainly doable. But even though the velocities were good, it just didn't shoot as tight as I wanted.

For whatever reason, the 80gr SMK wasn't so finicky in my barrel.

8208XBR and H4895 seem to be pretty good powder choices for great velocity in those mid weight charges like that.
 
#114
sandwarrior said:
I don't know who is saying this, but I don't see it as possible. Fast, yes, that fast? No. I've seen bigger cases have a lot of problems getting a 100 gr. bullet to 3k, let alone 3500.
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3500? We push 100gr 6.5 bullets to 3700 day in, day out. Called 260 Dingo. You want fast? We necked it down to .243 and now we launch 55gr bullets in excess of 4500. Chrony says we average 4557, had a best of 4661. Getting the 115gr DTAC to 3500+fps isn't gonna be an issue. Getting on topic, I'm building a 224 Valkyrie bolt action on a Savage 16 for the NRA show in May. If it works well out of an AR at 55k psi, it's gonna kick butt out of a bolt at 60k+. Still awaiting a Shilen Select Match barrel and reamer/bolt from PT&G. Should be here and done by the end of the month.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 
#115
We're talking .22 cal. Also, something that will fit in an AR platform. I see a niche for the .224V in light bolt actions. I also see this as something, if you want more power from an AR, the .224 Valkyrie will fill that need. Beyond that, it's another re-invention of the wheel.
 
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#116
sandwarrior said:
We're talking .22 cal. Also, something that will fit in an AR platform. I see a niche for the .224V in light bolt actions. I also see this as something, if you want more power from an AR, the .224 Valkyrie will fill that need. Beyond that, it's another re-invention of the wheel.
Click to expand...

With new 95gr SMK coming i think the Valkryie fills the SPR roll perfectly for hunting medium game and target shooting. If you could get it to 2700-2750 in a 20-22" barrel with 95gr SMKs that would be pretty sweet
 
#118
Lowlight said:
We shot it over the weekend,

Everyday Sniper

<iframe src='https://www.podbean.com/media/player/jywbf-8361c7?from=yiiadmin' data-link='https://www.podbean.com/media/player/jywbf-8361c7?from=yiiadmin' height='100' width='100%' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' data-name='pb-iframe-player' ></iframe>
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Love the podcast! Keep up the good work! I honestly hadn’t given the 224V the time of day until listening to episode 2. Definitely has my interest perked and was curious of it in a bolt gun role and lead me here. I do have an extra lower kicking around too.
 
#119
5RWill said:
With new 95gr SMK coming i think the Valkryie fills the SPR roll perfectly for hunting medium game and target shooting. If you could get it to 2700-2750 in a 20-22" barrel with 95gr SMKs that would be pretty sweet
Click to expand...

Agreed. Those are the niches I'm talking about. And, I think this cartridge can do this. If you could somehow get 3500 with this combination, it would eat barrels on a daily basis.

 
#120
I agree with the 95 grain smk in the 22 Grendel and this cartridge, but like it was discussed in the 22 Grendel thread in the semi auto section most seem to think it way be to long to be useable in the AR even with asc mags that allow for 2.31 coal, my fingers are still crossed though due to seirra not publishing this bullets specs yet, but it will be a match made in heaven if you could fit it in this cartridge or the 22 Grendel's mag without eating up to much case volume. Either way the 90 grain smk mag feed at similar speeds to the 77 grain in a 223 SPANKS the hell out of a 223 in terms of external ballistics. Can't wait for this round to become more commonplace, I believe the more first hand reports we hear .The more the community as a whole ,will come to respect this round and its versatility it the AR platform.
 
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#122
Great for AR-15 platform....that's it.

If i wanted to run a 22 caliber in a bolt action rifle for yotes or PRS I would select a 22 Creedmoor. Alot more performance that the 224 valkyrie and still fit in a short action.
 
#124
littlehendrick said:
With it being backed by a large ammo manufacture, it will likely stick around for those who don’t reload.

In in terms of a bolt gun, Phil from MPA was saying he was getting 2900 with 90gr in a 24” barrel. That is very close to 6dasher.

it is another option out there. If you handload, the world is our oyster to load whatever the heck you want. But other decide not to, and just roll with factory stuff, so this might suit their budget well.
Click to expand...
this
 
#125
Now has anyone seen first hand the brass out of an AR? It looks like hammered shit and unloadable again out of a gas gun from what i have seen. For me this would only be a bolt gun option because of this. That being said, with ballistic data that is very close to my 6 dasher this could be a cheap low recoil training/shooting/critter getter do anything weapon. I could easily see myself building one in a couple years off a rem short action.
 
#126
Every AR is different, with a little gas block tuning and some velcro on the deflector, the brass can be plenty reloadable, this for the AR that tends to ding cases.

For example my mostly stock AR doesn't ding up brass.

I'm hoping the 224V brass is decently strong, if not I'll wash my hands of it and do a 22 cal based off Grendel or the BR case. I'd rather just shoot factory brass if at all possible, that's for sure.
 
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#127
steve123 said:
Every AR is different, with a little gas block tuning and some velcro on the deflector, the brass can be plenty reloadable, this for the AR that tends to ding cases.

For example my mostly stock AR doesn't ding up brass.

I'm hoping the 224V brass is decently strong, if not I'll wash my hands of it and do a 22 cal based off Grendel or the BR case. I'd rather just shoot factory brass if at all possible, that's for sure.
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I completely agree but what I saw was case head shredding. No way even close to reusable. This I saw first hand out of two different weapons.
 
#128
Str8shot said:
I completely agree but what I saw was case head shredding. No way even close to reusable. This I saw first hand out of two different weapons.
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That is a bit weird. Ive seen some comparison videos from brass that was fired out of the JP rifle and they didn't seem shredded. Maybe it was something like the 22" with the extended gas system and adjustable block. Or JP uses a smaller gas port diameter. I am assuming this cartridge is going to be a lot like 6.5 creed is out of an AR10.
 
#129
GGK said:
That is a bit weird. Ive seen some comparison videos from brass that was fired out of the JP rifle and they didn't seem shredded. Maybe it was something like the 22" with the extended gas system and adjustable block. Or JP uses a smaller gas port diameter. I am assuming this cartridge is going to be a lot like 6.5 creed is out of an AR10.
Click to expand...
I'm really hoping it was a freak deal with the brass or something. This really looks like a fun load in an AR platform.
 
#130
Mayday Malone said:
I agree with the 95 grain smk in the 22 Grendel and this cartridge, but like it was discussed in the 22 Grendel thread in the semi auto section most seem to think it way be to long to be useable in the AR even with asc mags that allow for 2.31 coal, my fingers are still crossed though due to seirra not publishing this bullets specs yet, but it will be a match made in heaven if you could fit it in this cartridge or the 22 Grendel's mag without eating up to much case volume. Either way the 90 grain smk mag feed at similar speeds to the 77 grain in a 223 SPANKS the hell out of a 223 in terms of external ballistics. Can't wait for this round to become more commonplace, I believe the more first hand reports we hear .The more the community as a whole ,will come to respect this round and its versatility it the AR platform.
Click to expand...

I asked Sierra today via instgram when they posted it if it would run in the 224 valkryie i didn't specify a semi-auto mag length but i mentioned if it was too long or not and they said no. Hopefully that is the case.
 
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#132
Str8shot said:
Now has anyone seen first hand the brass out of an AR? It looks like hammered shit and unloadable again out of a gas gun from what i have seen. For me this would only be a bolt gun option because of this. That being said, with ballistic data that is very close to my 6 dasher this could be a cheap low recoil training/shooting/critter getter do anything weapon. I could easily see myself building one in a couple years off a rem short action.
Click to expand...

Yes, from the JP Enterprise AR the military arms channel was testing at my range the brass, rim/head was fine. That rifle, IIRC, was a 22" barrel and had a 2" extended gas though I am not sure what spring and weight was being used on the SCS.

Do you know anything regarding the rifles you saw that was trashing the brass? barrel and gas length?

I'd be real careful when choosing these barrel's, just like the 22 nosler, it is going to need a longer than rifle gas system.
 
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#134
I just don't see what the attraction is to this cartridge for a bolt gun unless you just want to run one of the mini action's to have a little bit shorter/lighter rifle and the issue with them is there is almost no aftermarket support.

Apples to apples the performance (when case length isn't an issue) to 223 really isn't much if any and based on what data is out there a 223AI should still out perform the Valkyrie when both loaded to their full potential.

The biggest issue I see is what mags will work in bolt guns (AICS pattern) until someone makes one (if they even do)? I played with some rounds in both .308 sized AI and Magpul AICS mags as well as .223 sized Accurate and Ruger AICS mags. In the 223 mags the Valkyrie sits way too low and will almost certainly hinder feeding reliability if it feeds at all. The 308 mags barely hold the rounds, more than a couple rounds in the mags causes the rounds to pop right out of the feed lips in both AI and Magpul mags. My experience with mags with tweaked feed lips has been less than stellar as far as reliability and the .308 sized mags will still be too large internally for the rounds to work.

The benefit I see to this round is solely in the AR-15 platform. It allows you to load the long high BC projectiles within mag length without sacrificing performance, the reason is the wider case with a shorter OAL. This concept isn't new to the AR-15 platform but it is the first in a commercially available option and I think the creators did a fantastic job. I love that they based it off the SPC because of mags alone. IMO the mags for SPC are better quality (PRI namely), and the the high capacity mags also don't curve quite as hard for the SPC's as they do for the Grendels which can be an issue for shooting off barricades if you don't want to run smaller capacity mags. Those long curvy Grendel mags will put you further back off the barricade and even with a 15" rail there isn't a whole lot of real estate to rest on unless you run a Atlas bipod all the way out. I watched several shooters run into this very problem who were shooting Grendels.

In a bolt gun, I'd stick to a 223. There are now reliable AICS pattern mags that give you the OAL to run the long bullets plus you have the plethora of 223 brass and dies. There are also now several factory 8 twist rifles to stabilize high BC bullets but they obviously still wouldn't work with the 90's. A 1:6.5-1:7 would be required.

I guess if you're just looking for an excuse to build another rifle but for me there's a lot of other chamberings I'd chose first.

My $.02.
 
#135
5RWill said:
They replied...can't be run at mag length for the valkryie in a semi-auto platform :cry:
Click to expand...

I don't have the exact measurements in front of me at the moment but I was curious about this myself so I ordered 500 of them a couple weeks back to test fit. I pulled a factory Valkyrie 90gr SMK round, measured both bullets to compare dimensions, and then seated a 95gr SMK to confirm. The ogive was well outside of the case mouth when loaded to PRI mag length (2.30") which was my main concern.

The only potential issue I could see is distance to lands, which I don't yet have a barrel to test, but that would be as simple as having a barrel done up with a proper throat to shoot them or just having the throat reamed out a little in an existing chamber.

I only plan to shoot factory ammo through mine but once I get my barrel I'll play with seating depth with the 95gr and report back to at least give those interested one example.
 
#136
Niles Coyote said:
Yes, from the JP Enterprise AR the military arms channel was testing at my range the brass, rim/head was fine. That rifle, IIRC, was a 22" barrel and had a 2" extended gas though I am not sure what spring and weight was being used on the SCS.

Do you know anything regarding the rifles you saw that was trashing the brass? barrel and gas length?

I'd be real careful when choosing these barrel's, just like the 22 nosler, it is going to need a longer than rifle gas system.
Click to expand...
Sadly as cold as it was that day I don't recall what they brought.
steve123 said:
Just guessing but I think you are getting 224V confused with 22 Nosler, it's well known 22N gets chewed up rims,???
Click to expand...
Nope They were def Valkyrie.
 
#138
redneckbmxer24 said:
I don't have the exact measurements in front of me at the moment but I was curious about this myself so I ordered 500 of them a couple weeks back to test fit. I pulled a factory Valkyrie 90gr SMK round, measured both bullets to compare dimensions, and then seated a 95gr SMK to confirm. The ogive was well outside of the case mouth when loaded to PRI mag length (2.30") which was my main concern.

The only potential issue I could see is distance to lands, which I don't yet have a barrel to test, but that would be as simple as having a barrel done up with a proper throat to shoot them or just having the throat reamed out a little in an existing chamber.

I only plan to shoot factory ammo through mine but once I get my barrel I'll play with seating depth with the 95gr and report back to at least give those interested one example.
Click to expand...

So assuming the we can have a barrel throated for the 95gr SMKs you can seat them to mag length? Or did you mean the ogive was well inside the case like the same issue with running a 75gr AMAX in a .223 semi?
 
#145
5RWill said:
Keep me posted that 2600 with that 95gr possibly out of an 18-20" would rock.
Click to expand...

2600 might be a stretch with a 18-20" tube based on the numbers factory ammo is doing. Factory ammo isn't always loaded with the most efficient powder however nor to highest safe pressures so it's possible.

I ended up going with a 22" 1:6.7" twist Rock Creek with rifle +2" gas. Almost did 24" but want to save the 2" to not make it too long with a can.

My plan was to shoot factory ammo and not have to load but this bullet is making it hard to not load and get that .600 BC. With both Starline and Federal brass I should be able to load ammo with minimal effort and probably save $.50/round over factory stuff even if I left the brass on the ground.
 
#146
redneckbmxer24 said:
2600 might be a stretch with a 18-20" tube based on the numbers factory ammo is doing. Factory ammo isn't always loaded with the most efficient powder however nor to highest safe pressures so it's possible.

I ended up going with a 22" 1:6.7" twist Rock Creek with rifle +2" gas. Almost did 24" but want to save the 2" to not make it too long with a can.

My plan was to shoot factory ammo and not have to load but this bullet is making it hard to not load and get that .600 BC. With both Starline and Federal brass I should be able to load ammo with minimal effort and probably save $.50/round over factory stuff even if I left the brass on the ground.
Click to expand...

I think it's doable on the upper end of pressure spectrum, might have to be pushed a tad. Seeing federal ammo run 2600 with a 90gr out of an 18" makes me think it is. Always felt factory ammo was very conservative. Maybe 20" is required. I'm just thinking of how awesome that would be in a semi-short hunting/range gun. 95gr at 2600 would be hell on deer inside 500yds, fun to ring steel with, and cheap to shoot.
 
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#147
5RWill said:
I think it's doable on the upper end of pressure spectrum, might have to be pushed a tad. Seeing federal ammo run 2600 with a 90gr out of an 18" makes me think it is. Always felt factory ammo was very conservative. Maybe 20" is required. I'm just thinking of how awesome that would be in a semi-short hunting/range gun. 95gr at 2600 would be hell on deer inside 500yds, fun to ring steel with, and cheap to shoot.
Click to expand...

I read a post from a Federal tech guy stating that the round is loaded to low pressure and he said why but I don't recall.

I personally don't push the limits of pressure in gassers. If you push pressure with SPC and Grendel bolt faces you'll eat through bolts left and right.
 
#148
redneckbmxer24 said:
I read a post from a Federal tech guy stating that the round is loaded to low pressure and he said why but I don't recall.

I personally don't push the limits of pressure in gassers. If you push pressure with SPC and Grendel bolt faces you'll eat through bolts left and right.
Click to expand...

I know you can't push far but i mean in terms of factory ammo, i bet there is some performance to be gained.
 
#149
I just measured the COAL of 10 rounds of factory 90 SMK ammo. Average of 2.247" high:2.252" low 2.242". That seems way short considering ASC and PRI mags can be loaded to 2.310" reliably and modified PRI mags to 2.330".

I'm guessing we will see higher velocities once we start handloading.

I also have a 22" +2 gas on order.

IMG_2258-438624.JPG
 
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