I got to be on glass several times for Mike at Mile High shooting a .224 Valkyrie at the local match 3 weeks ago, 87 to 1124 yards. It was challenging past about 700 yards to see impacts on target, splashes in dirt berms and impossible in grass, but I don't think I missed any impacts. On stationary high quality glass, I saw 90% of the traces from the 6mms on up, only caught 2 from the .224V. I have a good amount of experience spotting .223s on long steel and the .224V was a little better, but closer to 77s from a .223 than 105s from a 6mm. Noise of impact was faint at best even without ear pro in on the really long stuff. If I was shooting 224V at a precision match, I would want a really good spotter on glass. All that said, I ordered a 22" JP barrel before SHOT.
.224 Valkyrie
- Thread starter -=boone=-
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I'm not sure. It sounded to me like he was just listing off the popular AICS pattern manufacturers. He states "the steel ones from Accurate Ordnance or BLM Tool or the polymer new mags from Magpul".
Maybe Magpul will be making a 6.8 specific mag, but they did not announce it at SHOT. Also if you watch the video closely you can see they are using a metal magazine on the DEMO rifle.
I'll give APO a call on Monday and see what they can tell me about the magazines.
I just got off the phone with APO, nice folks. They stated they are tweaking/building 9 round custom AICS pattern mags in house, and had them feeding flawlessly. They really wouldn't get into specifics beyond that for obvious reasons.
My guess is that they are tweaking the lips on a 223Rem steel mag and probably have designed a new follower and polymer mag body insert to better accommodate the Valkyrie cartridge in place of the .223Rem follower and mag body insert.
Bottom line: there is nothing presently "off the shelf" that you can slap into a bolt gun and have it run 100% with the Valkyrie.
My guess is that they are tweaking the lips on a 223Rem steel mag and probably have designed a new follower and polymer mag body insert to better accommodate the Valkyrie cartridge in place of the .223Rem follower and mag body insert.
Bottom line: there is nothing presently "off the shelf" that you can slap into a bolt gun and have it run 100% with the Valkyrie.
Its shit like this that makes me second guess on whether or not I should have ordered a barrel:
They claimed there was no data on .224 Valkyrie so they just used their 6.5 Creedmoor data. Bullshit. There's plenty of data on the 90 SMK, just need velocity and ballistic calculator.
They claimed they were spot on with their 6.5 Creedmoor drops. Bullshit. Only way they did that was to neuter a 6.5 load to match the Valkyrie and "prove" they are the same.
No mention of chrono data or actual velocity in the video.
They claim its a 1300 yard round. Bullshit. Show me data with atmospheric conditions, velocity, and 2nd round hits.
I like the round itself but I'm becoming very skeptical of the hype.
They claimed there was no data on .224 Valkyrie so they just used their 6.5 Creedmoor data. Bullshit. There's plenty of data on the 90 SMK, just need velocity and ballistic calculator.
They claimed they were spot on with their 6.5 Creedmoor drops. Bullshit. Only way they did that was to neuter a 6.5 load to match the Valkyrie and "prove" they are the same.
No mention of chrono data or actual velocity in the video.
They claim its a 1300 yard round. Bullshit. Show me data with atmospheric conditions, velocity, and 2nd round hits.
I like the round itself but I'm becoming very skeptical of the hype.
Agreed. The cartridge itself may be fine but the marketing and number fudging is getting to be a huge turn off.
I'm going to guess that those of you accusing Federal of putting out BS claims of 1300 yard supersonic are using the old G1 BC of .504 for the 90gr SMK...
Here's a suggestion... try using the correct .563 G1 BC since they started pointing all the match bullets. Even at sea level this keeps it supersonic to 1300 as claimed at the 2700fps velocity. Run it up to 4000' and it's superonic to beyond 1500 in certain conditions.
Here's a suggestion... try using the correct .563 G1 BC since they started pointing all the match bullets. Even at sea level this keeps it supersonic to 1300 as claimed at the 2700fps velocity. Run it up to 4000' and it's superonic to beyond 1500 in certain conditions.
I dont mind the hype. Just tune out the stuff you dont need to hear, i enjoy the hype as im hoping it will introduce and encourage competition thus lowering prices hehe 
While I'm not trying to stick up for sootch00, I just ran a comparison on JBM between the 90 grain at 2700 and my Creedmoor match load (140 eld at 2680) with my last environmental data and the Valkyrie does stick with it till ~600 and by 1000 it is separated by 4/10 elevation and 2/10 wind. Now I don't run a super hot load as some do here in my Creedmoor but depending on the steel plate size the data could easily be close enough to get a hit on target. Especially if you are adding the deference as you walk your way out.
This is a VERY, very good question. When the -250 case is just sitting there, among many, many others, unless a guy is one of the extremely limited examples with an SPC-size bolt face in a bolt action...
Any standard BF bolt action that could run the Valkyrie (with significant work to the boltface), could just press the easy button and use a .22-250. At a SAAMI rating of 65,000, it is an extremely strong casing, and in 7 to 7.5-twist, I'd bet the -250 could be made to run the Sierra 90 or 95 grainers at 3,000+.
-Nate
FWIW, my 22-250AI with 80 grain A-Max and H4831sc will easily reach 3200 before I start seeing pressure. A better quality barrel would likely best that by a bit and I have yet to try H1000 powder. I might have to try so 90 and 95's in it this year.
These things are appealing to me for a 224V in a bolt gun;
Barrel life, something the big 22 centerfires will be lacking in, comparatively. I'm guessing 4000-5000 or so rounds???
28 grains of powder so it's easy on a 8lb jug of powder, vs approx 40 grains for the bigger 22's.
Low recoil and rifle upset for better self spotting, especially on the closer steel.
"It should" exceed 223 Rem in velocity using the same bullets at the same barrel lengths, by how much we'll see. A 90 grainer at 2800 + fps with a 2.5" OACL should be achievable in 25 - 26" barrel. That's the area I want to be in and it will closer approximate the ballistics, especially windage, of the normal 6's and 6.5's, than 223 does.
I never did a 22x47L with the intent of using 90's because I had read of plenty of failures with the 90's not holding up at the speeds the bigger 22's provide. Just didn't want to take the chance like I did with 20x47L, which didn't work out too well. It seems the 75's and 80's hold up okay at the higher speeds and if that's what you want, cool.
For longer distances I'll use what I have been which is hot 6mm's, 6.5's and 30's. They make more noise on steel, make bigger splats, and it's easier to see splash in the dirt. I'll still take the 224V out far once in a while for the heck of it though, but at normal distances it will be a lot of fun.
I never built a 223 for a bolt trainer because the wind drift was falling to much behind the bigger rifles without using a long barrel, 223AI needing forming and I have an AR in 223. Where I live we hardly shoot inside 300Y and it seems most targets are right where 223 fades but 224V will have some steam left.
224V is in a unique niche. One I'd like to explore someday.
Barrel life, something the big 22 centerfires will be lacking in, comparatively. I'm guessing 4000-5000 or so rounds???
28 grains of powder so it's easy on a 8lb jug of powder, vs approx 40 grains for the bigger 22's.
Low recoil and rifle upset for better self spotting, especially on the closer steel.
"It should" exceed 223 Rem in velocity using the same bullets at the same barrel lengths, by how much we'll see. A 90 grainer at 2800 + fps with a 2.5" OACL should be achievable in 25 - 26" barrel. That's the area I want to be in and it will closer approximate the ballistics, especially windage, of the normal 6's and 6.5's, than 223 does.
I never did a 22x47L with the intent of using 90's because I had read of plenty of failures with the 90's not holding up at the speeds the bigger 22's provide. Just didn't want to take the chance like I did with 20x47L, which didn't work out too well. It seems the 75's and 80's hold up okay at the higher speeds and if that's what you want, cool.
For longer distances I'll use what I have been which is hot 6mm's, 6.5's and 30's. They make more noise on steel, make bigger splats, and it's easier to see splash in the dirt. I'll still take the 224V out far once in a while for the heck of it though, but at normal distances it will be a lot of fun.
I never built a 223 for a bolt trainer because the wind drift was falling to much behind the bigger rifles without using a long barrel, 223AI needing forming and I have an AR in 223. Where I live we hardly shoot inside 300Y and it seems most targets are right where 223 fades but 224V will have some steam left.
224V is in a unique niche. One I'd like to explore someday.
Good points steve123. I'll get one in my AR to play with and could easily see a bolt action in my future depending on how my experience goes with the AR.
Well as things develop with the info coming out on the Valkyrie we set up a Facebook group going now to take in reports of Federal ammo reports in different rigs and barrels and will start to publish and keep it up to show realities. Also, we will be starting to show possible powders and reload data as that starts to come in and develop. So if you on the Valkyrie ride come drop in and join us and contribute to its potential and possibilities. FB Group name is 224 Valkryie Reloading and that will be its main focus. https://www.facebook.com/groups/398943407218038/
The first parts arrive on the new project...
For those interested in the new pointed 90smk's the length here is 1.169 with 1.166-1.172 being the variation with what I measured from the first 10 I pulled from the box.
For those interested in the new pointed 90smk's the length here is 1.169 with 1.166-1.172 being the variation with what I measured from the first 10 I pulled from the box.
I had the same 22-250 discussion with my dad the other day while talking about the 224V. We both shoot the -250 in our coyote rifles. Seems like a guy could just swap the barrel for a faster twist rate and tune a 90gr load.
I would also second the thought of younger smaller frame shooters being interested in the 224V type of round. It gives you the option of making a lighter rifle and still being able to manage recoil.
I would also second the thought of younger smaller frame shooters being interested in the 224V type of round. It gives you the option of making a lighter rifle and still being able to manage recoil.
Next box arrived, ammo and mags...
Here are some comparisons, the loaded cartridge measures 2.248".
From the top down.
69 TMK
77 TMK
90 SMK
80 A-Max
75 A-Max
PRI 15 round mag, all steel and welded. A quick measurement suggests a COAL of 2.305ish
Factory Hornady 6.5 Grendel with 123 ELD vs Factory FGMM 90smk Valkyrie.
Here are some comparisons, the loaded cartridge measures 2.248".
From the top down.
69 TMK
77 TMK
90 SMK
80 A-Max
75 A-Max
PRI 15 round mag, all steel and welded. A quick measurement suggests a COAL of 2.305ish
Factory Hornady 6.5 Grendel with 123 ELD vs Factory FGMM 90smk Valkyrie.
I wonder if the brass you saw, was coming out of a gun with a fluted chamber (I have no idea why they would do that, but just tossing it out there). Fluted chambers can surely mangle some brass....
I don't know if you saw my response on the first page of this thread, but I thought it would be a good lightweight walking varminter that can reach to 1k. I'm not talking on a R700 action, I'm talking on a lightweight action like the Savage 25. Picture a 4 lb. rifle with a minimal scope. Too bad Sako doesn't make the Vixen action anymore.
WOW! I guess if you talk fast enough, you don't have to say everything that is or is not true:
.224" 90 gr. bullets don't "cut the wind" better than 6.5's. At least not high BC dedicated 6.5's. From what I see he's only getting 30 more FPS than what I get out of my 6.5 Grendel.
I have to ask too, have I been calculating ES and SD wrong all this time? Seems to me he fired five shots and got a 70 FPS difference. Yet he comes up with a 20 sumpin' SD. Do you stick a target number in the middle of your shots and call the SD how far your shots go off that?
Lastly, if your going to do an accuracy test, set the fucking thing up for accuracy. The way he set it up, we don't know if he fucked up, the rifle was 'hot' (he blamed his piss poor groups on that) or is the ammunition not up to par? Nothing pisses me off worse than some dipshit claiming super or sub-par accuracy and don't even bag the rear of the rifle from a solid rest. And if his rifle gets hot and shoots like that in five shots, it's not worth buying.
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I must have missed it. I could see running it in a Howa mini action or something similar, as you said, it would be a handy little rifle. A few people I know keep going on about how it has 6.5 creedmoor ballistics so I ran some numbers and I would love to know where these people are coming up with their numbers. I have ran numbers using the same station pressure, temp and humidity and it doesn't even come close at 1000. My 308 with 155 scenars are almost the same drop so either I have no clue what I'm doing with my ballistic calculator or the hype is getting out of hand.
You're absolutely correct that higher BC > a little more velocity, but what bullet are you stuffing in a 6.5 Grendel at mag length that has a higher BC than the .563 BC of the 90gr SMK? I can't imagine that you're using any of the 140 class bullets successfully in a Grendel.
IMO the only round that can be compete and be successfully chambered in a AR15 that's somewhat common (although not commercial) is the 6mm AR/LBC/Grendel, whatever you wish to call it. With the 105's it does compete nicely but I still see the SPC based Valkyrie advantageous in the AR15 platform for what most of us do. Mainly for the magazines because I've seen the long curve of the high capacity Grendel mags hinder a shooters ability more than once on a barricade and the lower capacity straighter mags often aren't enough without mag changes which eat up time. The SPC mags are much straighter, essentially the same as a 30rd 556 mag in profile which has been a non issue for me.
As to SD, it's calculated off the string of shots and 20fps SD is right in line with a 70fps ES so I'd say yes, there's a good chance you've been calculating something wrong. Any good chrono should do this for you though so calculating it to begin with is your first mistake.
Maybe it was a first attempt experiment with this new cartridge??? Carbine length gas tube, light buffer ??? For these higher performance rounds the manufacturers should concede to +2" gas systems. Any semi should be tuned to the cartridge not shoehorned in a half ass attempt...
Don't know what kind of Grendel mags they have in your neck of the woods, but I have never seen one that has more of a curve than a standard GI 30 rnd mag...
Oh and I guess .224 90 SMK is the only bullet you can point?
Don't get me wrong I think the .224V is a neat little round, but I can't get over the typical blind human jump on the band wagon silliness that follows this crap (reminds me of something else). I personally think people are gonna get frustrated with this round from the lack of feedback down range. If shooting 90 grn .224 pills fast was a thing, it would have been done already in SA cartridges. Instead top shooters are opting for sending 6.5 pills downrange faster.
123 Lapua's, Sierra SMK and Hornady I run them at about 2750 using 28.5 gr. IMR 8208XBR. I also load the 130 gr. Norma Golden/Diamond target with 28 gr. of 8208. Although I prefer the golden's as they don't pollute the barrel. Did Sierra change their 90 gr. bullet? from a few years ago. I notice their BC is higher than the ones I used to shoot. How do they base the number? Form? actual data ranges? Doppler?
According to the numbers, the Valkryie has the 6.5G beat in both velocity and BC. That has not been my experience in the field (BC only). Although, I will readily concede the Valkryie is superior to the 5.56. And, of course, it fits in the -15 platform where a larger case does not. (.22-250, .22 Cr).
As to ES and SD, I went back and watched the vid and only the one group was 77 fps and it was one round. No, 77 FPS does not normally fall right in line with 20 SD. At least not to us handloaders. But, I'll note this is factory ammunition and that is still pretty good. It was only one round that dropped. FWIW, it's never a mistake to check the calculations of your computer. Only an idiot would not check what was going on. And no, I've never measured SD by throwing out the ES. I measure as the average velocity difference. His other loads seemed to be on average about 30 fps apart. In the first group it did not throw a wild shot (2718 fps).
@sandwarrior The 90 grain sierra matchking is now pointed. That's something new that sierra seems to be doing on a lot of their matchkings now. IIRC, they collect this data by shooting the bullet at different velocities in their 300 yard underground tunnel and that is why we have the different velocity bands. So it should be pretty close.
Thank you for that.
I gotta say too, I think this round has potential. Potential that has always been there, but no manufacturers wanted to support. At least now they see it. So, in that line of thinking, if I were pushing something like this, with my best rifle, I would have set up an accuracy test that showed off what the round can do. Not the kind of groups shown in the video.
Added: In researching my last post, I looked up the rifle technical specs on the CMMG website, and it is a rifle length gas path. Nothing fancy, so the velocities are legit. Which is nice to actually get advertised velocities.
123 Lapua's, Sierra SMK and Hornady I run them at about 2750 using 28.5 gr. IMR 8208XBR. That'd be the fastest I've ever heard of.
Do you mean 2570 fps???
Between personal experience and reading about others data it would seem you could get a Grendel barrel anywhere from 14.5" to 20" and end up between 2450 and 2500 with 123's at either end of the barrel length spectrum. Then you can get a 24" and end up with a long ass gun thats barely any faster than a good 20" barrel.
I'm still baffled by the occasional guy getting 123's past the 2550fps marker.
I'm still baffled by the occasional guy getting 123's past the 2550fps marker.
Three land Black Hole Weaponry 18" med gas length. The lands are like 5R, but really more like Metford type rifling. this is all I got with my 24" AA and 24" Satern. I did a lot of hair pulling trying to figure out how to get more velocity out of this cartridge. Seating the bullets as deep as I can helps too. They get a little more run at the lands.
Count me as another guy that can get the Grendel in the 2650 range (using BL-c2) out of a 24" over watch upper. It's pushing the limit (and I have to use Hornady small primer brass to make it work), but it's achievable. LRP brass really neuters the Grendel round IME...
Only factory ammo but in my friends 24" he's only getting 2560 with 123's so almost 200 fps faster should be way over pressure?!
The 25rd mags I had and I've seen most others using (ASC?) curve out like crazy, almost like an AK mag.
I don't see how the Valkyrie is fad as you suggest. Ballistically with factory ammo it out performs any other commercial cartridge with factory ammo that you can stuff in an AR15 at mag length, yes even Grendel. For hand loading wildcats the only thing I see giving it any competition is the 6mmAR with 105 Hybrids and depending what you can drive the 90gr SMK's or 95gr SMK's to by loading it may even out perform that significantly.
The thing you and everyone else seems to be missing is that this isn't a hotrod round, it's really no faster than a 223 (marginally). It's shorter and fatter shifting the powder load back and allowing longer bullets to be loaded to mag length. 2700FPS is hardly fast IMO, but when you have a .563BC bullet it changes things.
It's called innovation, there will always be things coming along, many of which where right in our face the entire time.
I rarely jump on a new product, very very rarely. I'm still shooting 243 in comps if that tells you anything, but this is one new innovation that I was very excited to see. So much so that I ordered over 5K rounds of ammo as soon as it hit the shelves.
Only one of those bullets has a higher BC than the 90gr SMK and that's the Norma bullet. That bullet is probably going so slow at Grendel speeds that it offer no drop or drift advantage and you're getting more recoil. Sierra is now pointing all of the SMK's and the 90gr BC with the pointed bullet is .563 G1. I don't know how Sierra does their testing but I'd imagine doppler since that's what everyone is doing now. My experience with Sierra bullets has been that the BC is understated if anything.
SD is a number calculated from velocities of a string and is the average deviation round to round. And yes 20fps can easily be an accurate SD for a 77fps ES. It just means that the average deviation was 20fps shot to shot. Depending on whether it throws one shot way high or low or they all have a pretty large spread the SD is usually anything from 20%-50% of the ES, it just depends on all of the individual shots in the string. He probably got his SD off of his chrono which automatically calculates it... I highly doubt that the chrono is calculating that wrong, if something is going to be off on a chrono it's going to be a velocity reading.
I've got 3 BHW AR15 barrels sitting on my bench right now that I bought after hearing a bunch of people claiming you get much higher velocities than other barrels because of the rifling... Based on my testing I believe this is regurgitated information from the manufacturer because that's what they tell customers. All of the barrels shoot phenomenally and are very good barrels but they got no more velocity that I see with other makers top quality barrels of the same length.
You're claiming higher velocities than people get out of longer barreled bolt rifles which notoriously give higher velocities than gassers and you can push pressure a bit more.
What chronograph are you using? What charge weights of what powders?
And how often are you eating through bolts pushing the round that hard?
I was just made aware that Sierra was pointing their bullets. The old 90 gr. bullets that I shot awhile ago were not pointed.
Sierra tests bullets in their 300 yd. underground facility. I do not know if that is based on doppler readings, which would be pointless at that range, or drops. Which that range gives you just enough room to do. I also understand that the BC's are partly determined by by bullet form.
Where are you getting this info? I can't imagine for the life of me that Sierra is getting their BC's from a 300 yard test tunnel. Accuracy and stabilization testing maybe, but not BC. 300 yards isn't going to tell you anything definitive for BC on these types of bullets.
The doppler that companies are using now is about $100K, I know this because I looked into purchasing one. A $100K investment for a piece of equipment such as this to give accurate and true BC's isn't an overly huge investment to a company that would have pockets like Sierra. I don't know for sure that they use this but I'd be very surprised if they don't.
I do know for a fact that Sierra gives bullets out to very experienced shooters before they ever become a production product for testing and feedback. There's a chance they may be using BC's these testers provide from their testing for their numbers or to confirm there numbers, but again I don't know.
What I do know is that all of my experience with Sierra bullets over the years is that the BC's are a bit understated if they are off at all. I don't doubt that anything they're publishing is anything but accurate.
