224 vs 243 diameter in the next few years

[1moaoff]

With the valkyrie and cartridges like @padoms along with all the 6mm s available it's getting tight in performance.
The heavy and long 22 cal in the 90 grain class are close to the 105 gr 6mm pills.

Barrel life gains are getting bigger and new bullets change things fast.

It seems to me that a 90 or 95 gr being pushed at 3150 is so close to the 105 at the same speed that barrel life becomes a huge consideration. Now if we had a 100 grain 22 cal that was effective and affordable it would change the game of PRS

 

[BurnOut]

It also matters what your goals are in terms of shooting; is it all about making hits/grouping on steel or paper, or does retained energy and/or projectile terminal performance factor into things as well?

Not that I fancy myself to be either an actual sniper or extreme range hunter, but personally, I'm looking for the *possibility* of some kind of terminal performance at distance. It's just a "thing" for me; if I am able to make a hit, I want more than a simple caliber-sized hole in my target. As such, things like lathe-turned solid projectiles just don't hold much appeal for me, no matter their BC numbers.

Now with THAT said, I really see the modern .224 and .243 projectiles as being all that is really needed for up to muley-sized game out to 500-ish yards with the right cartridge driving the bullet and a decent shooter on the trigger. Of course, it never hurts to hedge your bets with larger projectiles, but that's all you're doing, is making fractional improvements to increase your odds (rather than "changing the game"). Also (obviously), if you're going to thicker-skinned and/or tougher game, then reasonable adjustments should be made.

 

[padom]

I honestly think the 90smk going between 3000-3100 like I'm achieving now in 220TB without pressure, super soft shooting with virtually no recoil is the perfect cartridge inside 1000. That 90 is hitting steel hard at 3100 and barrel life is excellent.

Comparable barrel life can be had from say a 6br shooting a 105 Hybrid but in my 28" barrel it's only going 2850....

I'll be testing 95smk next..

 

[6brshooter]

Padom, try 29-29.5gr h4895 in the 6br. I had no problem getting 2945 in a couple 8tw 26" 6br barrels. I was getting 2750 with 107smk in an 18" 6br.

 

[6brshooter]

What kind of real world barrel life are getting with 220tb? As a reference point I got 2500rds from a 243 with 107smk@3145fps. It no longer held the same .2s groups, opened up to .6s at that rd count. I ultimately pulled barrel as it had slowed to 3020fps.

 

[padom]

Padom, try 29-29.5gr h4895 in the 6br. I had no problem getting 2945 in a couple 8tw 26" 6br barrels. I was getting 2750 with 107smk in an 18" 6br.

I'm about to do load workup with 105 Hybrid on a brand new Bartlein HV 28" 6br. My previous numbers were with 29.3gr H4895 105 BTHP virgin brass. 0.25moa at 636yd.

 

[6brshooter]

Nice. Barrel might speed up if it's still newish, or it might be a little slow. 4groove or 5r? .236 or .237? 8 or 7.5tw? Thanks for data points.

 

[padom]

Nice. Barrel might speed up if it's still newish, or it might be a little slow. 4groove or 5r? .236 or .237? 8 or 7.5tw? Thanks for data points.

Thst barrel was a Kreiger 4 groove 7.5 twist 237

This new barrel is Bartlein 5R 7.5twist .237

 

[6brshooter]

Ok. I've tended to get faster velocity with .236. I know .237 is probably more popular, but I know what I've saw in 7 or 8 6mm barrels

 

[mmlook]

With the valkyrie and cartridges like @padoms along with all the 6mm s available it's getting tight in performance.
The heavy and long 22 cal in the 90 grain class are close to the 105 gr 6mm pills.

Barrel life gains are getting bigger and new bullets change things fast.

It seems to me that a 90 or 95 gr being pushed at 3150 is so close to the 105 at the same speed that barrel life becomes a huge consideration. Now if we had a 100 grain 22 cal that was effective and affordable it would change the game of PRS

not enough bullet selection for heavy 224 bullets, yet
- we'll see what Hornady comes up with

I'm skeptical on barrel life "gains", especially if you're going to push 3100+fps with a 95gr+ bullet

like the above comment, 6br(& wildcats) still seem like the best option.
especially in a SA bolt gun

 

[6brshooter]

Hey man, I've been singing the virtues of 6br in comp guns for 7+ yrs. My tutorial on modifying aics mags for 6br is still floating around on old hide. I posted that a yr or so before primal rights kit came out...

 

[garandman]

Of the making of new calibers there is no end...

 

[Steel head]

Are we gonna see 100 grain .224 bullets soon?
Mini telephone poles with god like BC’s.

 

[padom]

.224 93gr A-Tip would be awesome

 

[Ledzep]

Are we gonna see 100 grain .224 bullets soon?
Mini telephone poles with god like BC’s.

I doubt it. There is a conflict that arises with super long super small caliber bullets. The twist rate necessary to stabilize them vs. the speed they go vs. jacket thickness vs. weight...

The heavier they are, the longer they are, the faster they need to spin... People pushing them 3000+fps because they're still relatively light for S/A powder columns means you very quickly get into the 300,000+rpm range and start blowing them apart.

To fix blowing apart, you thicken the copper jacket, and reduce weight-- or increase length and require even faster twist rates... It's a struggle cycle.

A solid copper/brass projectile would solve some issues, but then again, to get the weight up there requires absurd length with solids, they cost more to make, probably at that point would require specialized barrels that won't work for anything else. Possible, but not necessarily desirable for the masses.

 

[Steel head]

I doubt it. There is a conflict that arises with super long super small caliber bullets. The twist rate necessary to stabilize them vs. the speed they go vs. jacket thickness vs. weight...

The heavier they are, the longer they are, the faster they need to spin... People pushing them 3000+fps because they're still relatively light for S/A powder columns means you very quickly get into the 300,000+rpm range and start blowing them apart.

To fix blowing apart, you thicken the copper jacket, and reduce weight-- or increase length and require even faster twist rates... It's a struggle cycle.

A solid copper/brass projectile would solve some issues, but then again, to get the weight up there requires absurd length with solids, they cost more to make, probably at that point would require specialized barrels that won't work for anything else. Possible, but not necessarily desirable for the masses.

Too bad.
They’d be cool looking bullets.

 

[garandman]

And you're still dealing with light impacts on steel at distance. As much as terminal energy numbers theoretically say that faster rounds should hit harder it just doesn't pan out in reality. 308 impacts at 1000 + are still so much easier to spot than the smaller 6's.

Force = mass x velocity.

Big splashes need both.

 

[1moaoff]

Like I originally posted. I cant wait to see what the next 2 or 3 years brings. Thinking changes in powder and bullets are the leaps ahead. Barrels will follow what those 2 can accomodate.

 

[Estes640]

Force = mass x velocity.

Big splashes need both.

Force = mass x acceleration

Momentum = mass x velocity

 

[garandman]

Oooppsss.

Werk with me here, people.... lol

 

[Shutrmgavin]

I see online that noobs such as myself and non noobs have a harder time getting really good accuracy out of heavy 224s, relative to 243. I, with no experience shooting or reloading, got the 107 smk to do sub moa @1000 yards with the 243 and 6cm with little effort. The 224 Valkyrie is requiring much more work. Seems to be the case with experienced people reviewers as well.

With the new Target hit indicators, I wonder if momentum is as important

 

[IndianaRem5r]

Force = mass x velocity.

Big splashes need both.

Uh, no. Force = MA
Momentum = MV
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x M x V x V (1/2 MV Squared)

 

[garandman]

POINT BEING.... the "big splashes" desired require BOTH velocity AND mass.

Thanx for missing the point.

 

[Estes640]

POINT BEING.... the "big splashes" desired require BOTH velocity AND mass.

Thanx for missing the point.

What you aren’t seeing though as IndianaRem5r pointed out is that KE is the big player here for transferred energy to steel. Look at how much velocity plays into that equation (V^2). Basically you can make of for quite a bit of mass loss with an increase in velocity.

Now I’m not saying everyone should shoot 224 cal bullets really fast, I’m just saying there is merit to it. The biggest downside to the small 224 calls is the speed limit. With heavier bullets in a 6 creed that can run the same speeds, you will obviously lose in terms of energy. Just some thoughts

 

[260284]

I have been impressed with the 88gr ELDM out of the 22BR at 3005 fps. Easy to see hits and misses past 1000 yards. About like a 105 out of a Dasher, but a little more speed.

 

[padom]

I have been impressed with the 88gr ELDM out of the 22BR at 3005 fps. Easy to see hits and misses past 1000 yards. About like a 105 out of a Dasher, but a little more speed.

I have zero issues seeing hits and misses to 800 with the 90smk @ 3050. My favorite gun right now.

 

[garandman]

What you aren’t seeing though as IndianaRem5r pointed out is that KE is the big player here for transferred energy to steel. Look at how much velocity plays into that equation (V^2). Basically you can make of for quite a bit of mass loss with an increase in velocity.

Now I’m not saying everyone should shoot 224 cal bullets really fast, I’m just saying there is merit to it. The biggest downside to the small 224 calls is the speed limit. With heavier bullets in a 6 creed that can run the same speeds, you will obviously lose in terms of energy. Just some thoughts

I dont need any of those equations to see whats obvious.... to really hit a target hard, you want speed AND mass.

Keep missing that point. Its entertaining.

For me, anyway.

 

[IndianaRem5r]

Below is a spreadsheet showing typical speeds for given bullet weights and the calculated kinetic energy for same. Small diameter bullets never have enough velocity to yield similar energies as heavier pills (for example .224 @ 90 gr. vs. 6.5 @ 140 gr.) .

 

[garandman]

Speed AND mass.

 

[Estes640]

Below is a spreadsheet showing typical speeds for given bullet weights and the calculated kinetic energy for same. Small diameter bullets never have enough velocity to yield similar energies as heavier pills (for example .224 @ 90 gr. vs. 6.5 @ 140 gr.) .
View attachment 7112507

Compare it to say a 6br and 105 at 2850 FPS.

 

[Ranger188]

As far as the spread sheet listed on post #34
Your posted speeds for the 130-140g. class bullets is close, but as for the lighter bullets
in the 75-95g your very slow. Most shooting a 22 creed or such are achieving 3400 for the 75's
and I'm at 3300 with a 90g bullet which will add more KE to that chart.
It is hard to argue with a nice big bullet smacking steel compared to lighter one.
Take a 5lb sledge and hit a steel plate and take a light framing hammer and hit the plate faster
you'll hear a difference. Not quite the same, but you get it.

 

[IndianaRem5r]

3300 with a 90g bullet gives 2176 ft-lbf which puts you near a 115 DTAC at 2920 fps. Of course, some can push a 115 gr. bullet faster. 3300 is not legal in PRS, however.

 

[Ranger188]

If you load a 22 cal. 95g smk to 3100 you will still have better drop and less drift
than a 6mm 105 or less drop and about the same drift as the 6.5 140g @1000YDS.
At your posted speeds.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Its my opinion... That one day people will realize that probably .257 is the perfect compromise of mass and velocity and decent bullets will become widely available, in the meantime millions of heavy .224 and br variants will be sold.

 

[garandman]

Its my opinion... That one day people will realize that probably .257 is the perfect compromise of mass and velocity and decent bullets will become widely available, in the meantime millions of heavy .224 and br variants will be sold.

Better than .264 / 6.5 ?

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Better than .264 / 6.5 ?

The promise is there...

Blackjack Bullets – 25 Caliber Match Grade High BC Bullets

There is a pretty good thread running here on the 25 Creed. I would be slightly more interested in the 25x47 lapua to be honest.

 

[garandman]

The promise is there...

Blackjack Bullets – 25 Caliber Match Grade High BC Bullets

There is a pretty good thread running here on the 25 Creed. I would be slightly more interested in the 25x47 lapua to be honest.

25 creed got my interest but it was too close to 264/6.5 in diameter for me & Is supposedly a barrel burner so I opted for 224 V.

80 gr 224V can push 3000 fps I am told.

I'm more into punching paper than knocking down steel at distance.

I am a fan of people developing new calibers to push the edge of the envelope.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

Its probably a little more of a burner than the 6.5 but less than the 6. Its big downfall is options and if those start to happen then it may be interesting. A 25/06 would be interesting with some heavies also.

The 224v really interests me but moreso in the ar platform, I think what @padom has going with the 220tb looks spicey for a bolt gun.

 

[garandman]

The 224v really interests me but moreso in the ar platform, I think what @padom has going with the 220tb looks spicey for a bolt gun.

The problem, so I am told with 224V in the AR platform is that tiny case With heavy bullets being pushed way down into the case to fit in in AR mag.

I think if you are willing to limit yourself to 85 gr it could work real well

 

[b6graham]

The problem, so I am told with 224V in the AR platform is that tiny case With heavy bullets being pushed way down into the case to fit in in AR mag.

I think if you are willing to limit yourself to 85 gr it could work real well

it's not a problem per say. you just get less velocity than in a bolt gun running them .25" longer with a longer freebore

it's only a problem if you're expecting an 88eldm at 2875 from factory when theyre advertised at 2675

 

[Shutrmgavin]

Hmmm...you mean those 95 SMK's that are needle pointy are really picky? Like the 110 and 183 SMK's?

As far as the Hit indicators, it depends how much you want to spend. I just bought $1500 worth of steel for our club match. That bought 6 hangers and 9 pcs of steel. routine maintenance. We have 4 x Magneto hit indicators. Def not going to equip every target past 600 with them.

Yeah, I enjoy reloading but if it proves to be a load development issue versus my shooting or some equipment assembled incorrectly, I'm not going this route again. A node that is less than .2 grains across or less than 10 thou seating depth is no fun. Especially when there are other soft shooting calibers than aren't nearly as picky. Shoot, I loaded my 6cm really light and felt recoil was like my 224v and still grouped great .

 

[garandman]

it's not a problem per say. you just get less velocity than in a bolt gun running them .25" longer with a longer freebore

it's only a problem if you're expecting an 88eldm at 2875 from factory when theyre advertised at 2675

"Problem" is a relative term. When I was loading 73s and 75s in AR mags for 223, I remember being cramped by the 2.280" maximum length and having the bullets crushed down into the powder.

I dont like being cramped. I like options.

Just relating what others loading 224 V have told me.

 

[b6graham]

"Problem" is a relative term. When I was loading 73s and 75s in AR mags for 223, I remember being cramped by the 2.280" maximum length and having the bullets crushed down into the powder.

I dont like being cramped. I like options.

Just relating what others loading 224 V have told me.

Drop tubes are good
Compressed loads are okay too

How many millions of 77gr pills have been shot from AR mags?

 

[garandman]

Drop tubes are good
Compressed loads are okay too

How many millions of 77gr pills have been shot from AR mags?

Want what you want. As will I.

I want max velocity from 75s to 90s.

I do *not* want mag length limits or case capacity limits.

Capiche ? Its a "problem" for *me*.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Capiche ? Its a "problem" for *me*.

The real problem is the several times you've stated that 224V won't work in AR's. Some newbies might actually believe you.

 

[b6graham]

Want what you want. As will I.

I want max velocity from 75s to 90s.

I do *not* want mag length limits or case capacity limits.

Capiche ? Its a "problem" for *me*.

Well you're requirements change the entire reason of the cartridge in a gas gun. And that's heavies at mag length. If you want to load them long then great. Choose the right platform for the task and an AR15 isnt it.

You legit argue stupid points just to argue. It's a problem to you based on something you read in field and stream or some shit. Yeah I can shoot ELR with a 6mm Creedmoor. But it's not the right cartridge for that even though it can do it.

You're bringing a knife to a gun fight knowing that it was a gunfight before you even showed up

 

[garandman]

Whatever bro. Go argue with someone else. SMH.

Annoying.

 

[garandman]

The real problem is the several times you've stated that 224V won't work in AR's. Some newbies might actually believe you.

I have never ever said that.

Its well known they do work in ARs.

TONS of ppl run them in ARs. Its a major part of why the round was created .

Show me where I said "224 V will not work in an AR15."

My only point is *I* dont prefer 224V in a AR platform.

Retract your lie.

 

[Sutherlandsd]

The comments stated here are my issues with 224v I think its without a doubt a valid AR platform because sacrifices are being made and you are living within the constraints of that ecosystem. Move to a short action though and a WORLD of possibilities open up and if I am reloading anyways padom's 220 project is probably high on my list. The 224v is almost like two seperate cartridges to me...one for the AR shooters and one for the bolt guys who have the free bore to shoot long. The AR guys are never gonna see the performance of the ones loading long and the ones loading long are going to have about a mile of jump on factory rounds.

The valk bullet points for me are can fit in a cheap AR platform (get the kids or people who may be recoil sensitive shooting "I'm looking at you wife...") and the ability to walk into Academy or Walmart and buy shells. If I am looking at max performance though I'll probably look elsewhere. Regardless I think a compromise will be made one way or the other with that round.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I have never ever said that.

Its well known they do work in ARs.

TONS of ppl run them in ARs. Its a major part of why the round was created .

Show me where I said "224 V will not work in an AR15."

My only point is *I* dont prefer 224V in a AR platform.

Retract your lie.

Hey look at that, just the first I could think of.