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22arc versus 6 arc
- Thread starter BurtG
- Start date
be a lot sneaker if you didn't spill the beans on your secret identities. Wait. Isn't it against the rules to have multiple accounts?
Changing accounts isn't hiding anything from people who's job it is to find stuff.
In the 6mm ARC 18" Proof AR 15 I ran the 112 Barnes 2540 to 2554 fps 9.8 S/D.
The 110 SMK average 2553 fps. The 115 DTAC average 2532 fps.
The 6 Dasher long barrel
And the 110 SMK at 3085 fps
107 gr 3132 fps
58 gr almost 4100 fps.
Don't have the 22 ARC, ...yet.
The 110 SMK average 2553 fps. The 115 DTAC average 2532 fps.
The 6 Dasher long barrel
And the 110 SMK at 3085 fps
107 gr 3132 fps
58 gr almost 4100 fps.
Don't have the 22 ARC, ...yet.
It should be well within safe pressures. Hornady black ammo 75gr eldm is so mild it makes the case black 3/4 of the way down the case in a bolt gun and it runs at 2960fps out of a 20” barrel. Factory 80gr eldx runs 2920 out of a 20” barrel.
I figured this was implied in this comparison but it seems some are too dense to grasp the concept and want to argue other merits that are absolutely meaningless at 1000 if you can’t SEE or HEAR the impact/miss lol.
Exactly actually shooting it with proper velocity and pressure measuring equipment like Hotnady and Hodgdon did...vs.....well some dude on SH who may not be able to lace his boots straight is loading it. Must be perfect
That's the issue, case is too small for a 2.26 coal and super long bullets because of the AR15 mag limit.
Which also makes the case inefficient with varget and 4350, the only decent powders would be N140 and N540. Otherwise you gotta use the CFE223 and LVR which are not amazing powders.
I am remodeling my house right now and packed up all my reloading gear ... so it will be a few months for me ...
I will be experimenting with the highest bc bullets I can find in 6mm and mostly using Staball Match and Staball 6.5 but will try all the powders I have
I will update once I can
Maybe by that time I will find someone to either trade or buy all my 5.56 stuff and I'll start with experimenting with 22 arc plus 6 arc
Exactly using Hornady black ammo is what I’m referencing. Tested and designed with all Hornady’s fancy equipment is where I’m getting my velocity data from not some random guys reloads on SH. Black ammo which is a mild lawyer proof load for ars at 2960fps out of a 20” barrel.Exactly actually shooting it with proper velocity and pressure measuring equipment like Hotnady and Hodgdon did...vs.....well some dude on SH who may not be able to lace his boots straight is loading it. Must be perfect
Hornady’s gas load data shows top powders in the 3100 range for the 75s with a 24” barrel at 52k.
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These are all the loads listed for the highest bullet weights on Hodgdon's Reloading Manual for both 22 ARC and 6 ARC
Which one did you prefer for your 6ARC between the 115 DTAC , the 110 SMK , and the 112 Match Burner? I guess I could buy a small box of each and since which one my 16" 6 arc proof barrel likes the best
the 110 smk for the 6 arc and the 95 smk for the 22 arc look like they have similar bc's and similar velocities based on sierra's and Hodgdon's published data
the only thing is it is hard to find a 1:6.5 twist barrel in a 22 arc which is what sierra recommends
the only thing is it is hard to find a 1:6.5 twist barrel in a 22 arc which is what sierra recommends
I ran the numbers on this and changed my mind multiple times for probably two years before pulling the trigger. This was even pre-ARC, so we're talking 22 Grendel (which is exactly 22ARC) and 6mm Grendel (close enough to 6ARC it makes no difference). I ended up going 6mm. Since then both calibers have gotten better as new bullets have come to market.
After years of pre decision anxiety I've been quite happy with 6mm Grendel but have realized that most of the targets I hit with it I would also be hitting with a 5.56 because the overwhelming majority of my shooting is inside 700 yards.
Every now and then I still run the numbers for fun but now understand that for MY situation it makes almost no difference. Will it make any real difference for the OP or is he just chasing advantages on paper?
After years of pre decision anxiety I've been quite happy with 6mm Grendel but have realized that most of the targets I hit with it I would also be hitting with a 5.56 because the overwhelming majority of my shooting is inside 700 yards.
Every now and then I still run the numbers for fun but now understand that for MY situation it makes almost no difference. Will it make any real difference for the OP or is he just chasing advantages on paper?
Here's the 6 ARC next to 224 Valkyrie.
The 224 has slightly more, 1/2 gr H2O case capacity than the 22 ARC.
So with the 22ARC is basically a 224 Valkyrie in a different package, requiring slightly less bolt pressure to be safe in an AR.
Which would make the 224 Valkyrie slightly superior to the 22 ARC, with slightly more case capacity and able to run st higher pressures....interesting
Plus the 224 Valkyrie comes in 6.5 twist for 95 gr SMK....and may be able to run varmint bullets 30 or 40 fps faster.
Pretty much the same thing, different package...Hornady...and don't forget each is the best cartridge design ever.
Except wildcaters have been doing this many years.
My 2 ARs 6mm ARC in Proof barrels are very accurate, alot of 1/2" or less 5 shot groups at 100 yds.
It's not fast and best with heavy bullets that is was designed for, and I like its accuracy, a good little AR cartridge.
The 22 ARC will be similar, should be a good little AR cartridge. Take your pick I already a 224 Valkyrie.
The 224 has slightly more, 1/2 gr H2O case capacity than the 22 ARC.
So with the 22ARC is basically a 224 Valkyrie in a different package, requiring slightly less bolt pressure to be safe in an AR.
Which would make the 224 Valkyrie slightly superior to the 22 ARC, with slightly more case capacity and able to run st higher pressures....interesting
Plus the 224 Valkyrie comes in 6.5 twist for 95 gr SMK....and may be able to run varmint bullets 30 or 40 fps faster.
Pretty much the same thing, different package...Hornady...and don't forget each is the best cartridge design ever.
Except wildcaters have been doing this many years.
My 2 ARs 6mm ARC in Proof barrels are very accurate, alot of 1/2" or less 5 shot groups at 100 yds.
It's not fast and best with heavy bullets that is was designed for, and I like its accuracy, a good little AR cartridge.
The 22 ARC will be similar, should be a good little AR cartridge. Take your pick I already a 224 Valkyrie.
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"Mild lawyer proof load."
I have seen factory ammo blow primers.
Extrapolating that an 85.5 can be pushed faster without pressure than the load data would suggest because hornady black shoots a diffrent bullet 2900 is the opposite of what I am talking about.
In all the matches or events where dudes were shooting 6 Dasher or 243 AI, I still had a hard time registering their hits visually through good optics when the distances got out to ~700yds. This usually means there was a full value wind, same problem for 5.56 at 400yds.
The target flashers/impact-activated lights were originally made for ELR shooting huge cartridges, since it’s extremely difficult to register hits in ELR in full value winds. First time I think I ever saw them was with Finns in the 2000s who made them for shooting .338 LM at beyond 1000m distances.
Then they started showing up in PRS when tons of people went to 6mm to have minimum sight picture disturbance, with the target ranges they were hung at being much closer. Nobody ever complained about not being able to hear a 6.5mm, 7mm, or .30 Cal at 700yds.
One thing that really stuck out to me was when RO’ing for Steel Safari, after a day was finished, I took my little 17.6” Grendel through Canyon West from point-to-point and even with 123gr A-MAX, it seemed louder on the steel than any of the 6mms. Most everyone with 6mm Dasher or 6x47L was shooting 24-26” barrels too. Just to give an example of what kind of terrain we’re talking about:
My hit probability was the same as well, though I wasn’t on the clock and knew where all the targets were. My hit probability would have been higher of course, had I been shooting a 6 Dasher, but "registration factor” with the 6s was lower.
When Remington made the R-15 in 30RAR, they changed the following components:
AR-10 diameter barrel extension
AR-10 diameter bolt head, AR-15 bolt body/shaft
Enlarged Upper Receiver Extension Tunnel for the giant AR-10 diameter extension
Enlarged election port for the fat cases
Even with the AR-10 sized pressure containment components, they kept the 30 RAR limited to 55ksi working pressure. The bolt lugs, even though they were AR-10 looking in cross-sectional area, were still AR-15 length. You get a lot of thrust from a .500” diameter case as well, that’s packing 40gr of powder behind a 125gr. Awesome little cartridge that was not well-supported, and undercut by Freedom Group.
Trying to run the 5.56 at 62ksi already requires different metallurgy and preferably the KAC E3 bolt. The only bolts I have ever broken in AR-15s since 1987 were 5.56 bolts in abusive high-volume training sessions in the early 2000s, once I went over 10k rounds. A lot of that ammo was under-powered Wolf steel case trash as well.
I don’t think pressure is the best vector to get us the improved performance we’re looking for. Optimal powders, case volume, and case design do really well at delivering that. Not to say there isn’t room for improvements in metallurgy and QC in our pressure-containment components.
At night and no-wind, I can even hear 5.56 impact out pretty far. Day and full value wind....the audible noise contracts down considerably. 5.56 stops showing ground effect bullet splash at fairly close ranges or if steel is up higher on posts. There just isn’t enough bullet mass to splash and be visible.
I have not spotted a lot of 80gr and higher though. I have spotted mostly 77gr for the better part of the last 15 years.
A buddy of mine made his own .221 Fireball Improved shooting the newer Hornady 88gr ELD-Ms from a little Howa set up as a training rifle, and we could hear it hit at 1000yds in full value 5mph wind. As the wind kicked up above that, it became more diminished in audible effect.
Hot probability is really high though with the fast/light/high BC bullets. They just don’t do much at distance. They seem most ideal for varmint work in places where the wind really makes predictable impacts with .223 Rem less-likely as you get out beyond 300yds.
Also great for chasing Xs in high-power type matches.
I have not spotted a lot of 80gr and higher though. I have spotted mostly 77gr for the better part of the last 15 years.
A buddy of mine made his own .221 Fireball Improved shooting the newer Hornady 88gr ELD-Ms from a little Howa set up as a training rifle, and we could hear it hit at 1000yds in full value 5mph wind. As the wind kicked up above that, it became more diminished in audible effect.
Hot probability is really high though with the fast/light/high BC bullets. They just don’t do much at distance. They seem most ideal for varmint work in places where the wind really makes predictable impacts with .223 Rem less-likely as you get out beyond 300yds.
Also great for chasing Xs in high-power type matches.
I shoot the 30 RAR in an AR 15.When Remington made the R-15 in 30RAR, they changed the following components:
AR-10 diameter barrel extension
AR-10 diameter bolt head, AR-15 bolt body/shaft
Enlarged Upper Receiver Extension Tunnel for the giant AR-10 diameter extension
Enlarged election port for the fat cases
Even with the AR-10 sized pressure containment components, they kept the 30 RAR limited to 55ksi working pressure. The bolt lugs, even though they were AR-10 looking in cross-sectional area, were still AR-15 length. You get a lot of thrust from a .500” diameter case as well, that’s packing 40gr of powder behind a 125gr. Awesome little cartridge that was not well-supported, and undercut by Freedom Group.
Trying to run the 5.56 at 62ksi already requires different metallurgy and preferably the KAC E3 bolt. The only bolts I have ever broken in AR-15s since 1987 were 5.56 bolts in abusive high-volume training sessions in the early 2000s, once I went over 10k rounds. A lot of that ammo was under-powered Wolf steel case trash as well.
I don’t think pressure is the best vector to get us the improved performance we’re looking for. Optimal powders, case volume, and case design do really well at delivering that. Not to say there isn’t room for improvements in metallurgy and QC in our pressure-containment components.
It's kinda like a 300 savage. About a 300 yd deer cartridge with 150 gr soft points.
Keep the pressure below 50,000 ps. It's very accurate with 155 gr Lapua Scenars, for moderate range target.
Here it is 30 RAR next to the 6mm ARC.
But the 338 RCM & 300 WSM in a real AR 10 run at the full max of 62,500 psi to just under 65,000 psi with .535", & .550" case bodies, with KAK magnum bolts, & modified ejection ports.
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have 500 pieces of the 110 smk on the way so I'll try testing them out with 6.5 staball and staball match and 2520. See what they can do out of a 16" proof
The 22 ARC and 224 Valkyrie are very similar, as is the old 22 PPC. Not much is new... just Hornady’s new intense marketing.
Shot the 85.5 Berger in the 224 Valkyrie today, it hangs around 2900 fps.
I usually shoot the 95 gr SMK in tbe 6.5 twist barrel.
But I like my 2 6mm ARCs...my preference kinda goes to the 6mm, but I enjoy both.
Shot the 85.5 Berger in the 224 Valkyrie today, it hangs around 2900 fps.
I usually shoot the 95 gr SMK in tbe 6.5 twist barrel.
But I like my 2 6mm ARCs...my preference kinda goes to the 6mm, but I enjoy both.
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I've been shooting the 224 Valkyrie since it first came out.
Had to order a complete upper just to try it.
The first barrel was a 7 twist 18" or 20" and was a bit disappointing.
So later on, I ordered a new barrel, for accuracy and velocity.
It's 24" with no threads for a brake, plus it has a 6.5 twist, for 95 gr SMK which I usually shoot a bit over 2700 fps.
10-4 brother. Sounds like a sweet setup.
I am doing either a 22 arc or a 6 arc in either a 16" or a 20". Just trying to decide which to go with. The factory 108's are going 2518 fps at the muzzle for me in a 16". I see no reason why I couldn't get handloads to do 2500 out of the same barrel with either the 110 SMK or the 115 DTAC.
Was trying to compare to what to expect out of the heavy 22 high bc bullets from the 22 arc. So, if I factored 20 fps per inch less then maybe a reasonable expectation for a 16" 22 arc for the 90+ grain bullets would be at 2540 fps. I don't know if that would be enough of a benefit to justify having two different calibers to reload for which would really be nice just sticking to 6 arc and 9mm as far as reloading. Could just leave two dillons setup and really pump out some good ammo once I got dialed in.
If your going to 16" barrels the 6 ARC makes more sense.
I run 18" Proof 6 ARC 7.5 twist and a 24" 224 Valkyrie 6.5 twist in AR platforms.
Things get different when going to 16" and 18", sometimes the velocities are close to the same, like my 308s...barrel chambers, bore smoothness, twist rate, all factor in.
All of the 115s, 112 gr, 110 gr go over 2500 fps in my 18" 6 ARC barrels.
The BCs are up to .634 G1 or .312 G7, at over 2500 fps with Leverevolution powder.
Try some of these in 6 mm ARC.
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I'm going to see if I can get the sierra 110's to shoot a decent velocity at the max length for the geissele mags with either 6.5 staball or staball match
I want to set up on the dillon 650 for this one and want a powder that meters well but has good velocity and good sd's and es
if neither of those do well then i will try 2520
I want to set up on the dillon 650 for this one and want a powder that meters well but has good velocity and good sd's and es
if neither of those do well then i will try 2520
I think staball match will be better than 6.5 staball so I would start there
The easiest AR 15 round I ever got to shoot most everything good with single digit standard deviations ....is the 338 Spectre.
Loaded on a Dillion progressive, SR or LP primer, newly formed cases or factory cases... 224 Valkyrie cases or 338 ARC cases turned heads ...it doesn't matter.
Subs or supers, it doesn't matter, still single digit S/Ds ...plus most everything is accurate.
I just use it for plinking, but it's supposed to a subsonic hunting round...almost identical to Hornadys new 338 ARC, except it has a 6.5 twist.
I even modified a few pieces of 338 ARC brass to shoot in it.
A very consistent caliber in this one example.
So loading on a progressive can produce excellent ammo.
Loaded on a Dillion progressive, SR or LP primer, newly formed cases or factory cases... 224 Valkyrie cases or 338 ARC cases turned heads ...it doesn't matter.
Subs or supers, it doesn't matter, still single digit S/Ds ...plus most everything is accurate.
I just use it for plinking, but it's supposed to a subsonic hunting round...almost identical to Hornadys new 338 ARC, except it has a 6.5 twist.
I even modified a few pieces of 338 ARC brass to shoot in it.
A very consistent caliber in this one example.
So loading on a progressive can produce excellent ammo.
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IMI M855 is good for blowing primers."Mild lawyer proof load."
I have seen factory ammo blow primers.
Extrapolating that an 85.5 can be pushed faster without pressure than the load data would suggest because hornady black shoots a diffrent bullet 2900 is the opposite of what I am talking about.
it does add in an extra safety factor that you can't fit enough 6.5 staball into the case when you have a 110 smk seated at geissele 6 arc max mag length that you can't get enough powder in the case to be over - pressure before you start compressing the powder
This is true, I just think it's a lot closer to h4350 so the speeds achieved with it might be very unsatisfactory.
It would probably do better in the really long barrels with extremely heavy for caliber bullet weights
but ... i do think you're right that staball match can be pushed harder and might be a better match for a 16" barrel
i really like 6.5 staball to use it with a powder measure instead of having to use the auto trickler like i would with reloader 16
i have only used it with 6.5 creed and 6 dasher in bolt guns
i am trying to get down to just two cases to reload for haha but i love trying new things so it's hard but I think i'm going to try it for a year just sticking with 6 arc and 9mm only. I may even do an 11.5" 6 arc sbr and completely do away with 223
I still prefer the le Wilson inline seating dies and a 21st century arbor press for match ammo but I’m going to really focus on using the Dillon 650 this year to see how close I can get with it versus using the autotrickler for powder and using the arbor press with mandrel to set neck tension and an inline or Wilson for seating
Will probably still do same annealing setup
