22arc versus 6 arc

[JR1200W3]

If you hit the target and no one knows it, does it count? If you can't spot your miss, what is the correction? Spotting misses and hits is quite important to getting on target.

105+ bullets splash better and move plates considerably more than 80-90g 22 cal bullets.

If. All hypothetical. You're basing your argument here that no one can see .22 cal impacts or msses. At all. Which isn't true.

I would disagree that a 105gr is "considerably" more. And you're discounting the velocity component of impact energy.

In every argument about people's favorite pet cartridge, when the proponent is in favor of a larger cartridge, they're going to try to make a big deal out of spotting impacts. And most of the time is over exaggerated. Just like the slow 2700fps Creedmoor argument for watching your own trace. I shot a match last weekend with a 22GT. The rest of the squad shot 6 Dashers and a 6.5 CM. We had 25 to 45 mph winds. Targets out to 1000. I tied for second overall. There was no difference spotting my impacts (85's at 3125) or misses compared to the Dashers(105's at probably 2900). And the 6.5cm guy was a soup sandwich. His zero was off all day long. He couldn't manage his data. It was his first match. The defining difference wasn't who was able to see splash. It was all about making hits. If you're strategy is based on second round hits you ain't going to do well.

If you haven't shot a couple of matches with a CF .224 cartridge (not a .223 Rem) then you don't have a memory bank of impacts burned into your brain to compare.

 

[JR1200W3]

When you step back and put this argument of impact/ bullet weight into perspective, it's getting kind of ludicrous. We're talking 16" barrel AR15's with piggy backed red dots. A 6 ARC pushing a 105gr bullet at 2650-2700. Not exactly a titan of long range engagements. 90% of the targets engaged in a competition setting this gun would be suitable for would be under 800yds, most of the targets probably under 600 where spotting misses aren't a real problem anyway. Some of the guys on here participating in this are shooting 14.5" 6 ARCs and probably lighter weight hunting bullets. Red dots, ostensibly because they think they're going to be engaging targets so close a magnified variable powered optic is too much to practically engage these close range target's.

Let's not get carried away.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

When you step back and put this argument of impact/ bullet weight into perspective, it's getting kind of ludicrous. We're talking 16" barrel AR15's with piggy backed red dots. A 6 ARC pushing a 105gr bullet at 2650-2700. Not exactly a titan of long range engagements. 90% of the targets engaged in a competition setting this gun would be suitable for would be under 800yds, most of the targets probably under 600 where spotting misses aren't a real problem anyway. Some of the guys on here participating in this are shooting 14.5" 6 ARCs and probably lighter weight hunting bullets. Red dots, ostensibly because they think they're going to be engaging targets so close a magnified variable powered optic is too much to practically engage these close range target's.

Let's not get carried away.

Sounds like you're making the argument for Hornady and Barnes bullets.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Don't turn into a troll. You're better than that.

Seems like you didn't realize you were making an argument for all low cost options related to the subject. Literally anything but the scabbiest sewer pipe will be good enough for the criteria you outlined, to include Hornady knockoffs.

 

[JR1200W3]

Seems like you didn't realize you were making an argument for all low cost options related to the subject. Literally anything but the scabbiest sewer pipe will be good enough for the criteria you outlined, to include Hornady knockoffs.

This is where you're confused. I'm making the opposite argument. I'm describing other people's viewpoint. I see people trying to envision their 16" barreled recce guns as bolt gun equivalents when it comes to capability at range. I don't buy into that. I don't play with 16" barreled ARs shooting slow velocities with lower quality components. The fact that it's a small frame AR means your starting out disadvantaged. Hence why I want a longer barreled rifle shooting faster with the best quality of bullet I can. I don't have a RD piggybacked 16". I think a lot of people are playing long range spray and pray but when they get the 3rd round hit on a full size IPSC at 1000 during their plinking session they confirm their idea that their 108 ELDM going 2550 is a 1000 yard cartridge. If they were to shoot a course of fire where there are no 3rd round engagements on 2-3 moa targets, they would be suddenly disappointed. In reality they have configured a gun that will only really make money with a higher hit probability at ranges ..... wait for it.... where spotting impacts isn't an issue.

But if you're going to play the Grendel/ ARC game my opinion is that you should pick the best version of it because you're already making a compromise with long range performance by trying to make it fit in a small frame gun.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

This is where you're confused. I'm making the opposite argument. I'm describing other people's viewpoint. I see people trying to envision their 16" barreled recce guns as bolt gun equivalents when it comes to capability at range. I don't buy into that. I don't play with 16" barreled ARs shooting slow velocities with lower quality components. The fact that it's a small frame AR means your starting out disadvantaged. Hence why I want a longer barreled rifle shooting faster with the best quality of bullet I can. I don't have a RD piggybacked 16". I think a lot of people are playing long range spray and pray but when they get the 3rd round hit on a full size IPSC at 1000 during their plinking session they confirm their idea that their 108 ELDM going 2550 is a 1000 yard cartridge. If they were to shoot a course of fire where there are no 3rd round engagements on 2-3 moa targets, they would be suddenly disappointed. In reality they have configured a gun that will only really make money with a higher hit probability at ranges ..... wait for it.... where spotting impacts isn't an issue.

But if you're going to play the Grendel/ ARC game my opinion is that you should pick the best version of it because you're already making a compromise with long range performance by trying to make it fit in a small frame gun.

So back to getting carried away?

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

a small frame ar will never compete with a bolt gun in the game of prs

the 6 dasher is fairly successful at the game of prs

i think people are trying to get as close to 6 dasher levels of performance out of a small frame ar as they could out of a bolt gun

that will never happen

one of the main reasons people like 6 dasher in a bolt gun is how easy it is to load for and not having to constantly tune the load, you can keep your reloading practices almost the same throughout the life of the barrel

i think there is an argument to be made that the 22 arc gets closer to 6 dasher ballistics than 6 arc

if you compare the velocities that are reasonable from a 22 arc with a berger 85.5 lrht versus a 6 dasher with 109 lrht and the bc's between the two projectiles

 

[JR1200W3]

So back to getting carried away?

What are you doing here? Contributing to the thread about 22 vs 6? Or following me with an axe to grind... looking for opportunities to argue semantics and feel like you got some licks in? Go do something constructive.

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

Has anyone had success with 115 dtacs in an ar or is that not a good combination with low velocity or seating depth issues at mag length?

 

[5RWill]

a small frame ar will never compete with a bolt gun in the game of prs

if you compare the velocities that are reasonable from a 22 arc with a berger 85.5 lrht versus a 6 dasher with 109 lrht and the bc's between the two projectiles

I'd even argue a LFG wont compete with bolt guns in the game of PRS. Maybe I've been out of the loop, are there top shooters placing with LFGs now?

On topic i think the 22 is the more suitable cartridge in a small frame gas gun. Lighter bullets with comparable BC, in nearly identical powder capacity.

 

[JR1200W3]

I'd even argue a LFG wont compete with bolt guns in the game of PRS. Maybe I've been out of the loop, are there top shooters placing with LFGs now?

Agreed. But I was speaking specifically to external ballistics. For shoot-ablility reasons alone the LFG aren't competitive.

Small frame just limits cartridge performance. And I don't think anyone would say that's a brilliant observation.

 

[supercorndogs]

If. All hypothetical. You're basing your argument here that no one can see .22 cal impacts or msses. At all. Which isn't true.

I would disagree that a 105gr is "considerably" more. And you're discounting the velocity component of impact energy.

In every argument about people's favorite pet cartridge, when the proponent is in favor of a larger cartridge, they're going to try to make a big deal out of spotting impacts. And most of the time is over exaggerated. Just like the slow 2700fps Creedmoor argument for watching your own trace. I shot a match last weekend with a 22GT. The rest of the squad shot 6 Dashers and a 6.5 CM. We had 25 to 45 mph winds. Targets out to 1000. I tied for second overall. There was no difference spotting my impacts (85's at 3125) or misses compared to the Dashers(105's at probably 2900). And the 6.5cm guy was a soup sandwich. His zero was off all day long. He couldn't manage his data. It was his first match. The defining difference wasn't who was able to see splash. It was all about making hits. If you're strategy is based on second round hits you ain't going to do well.

If you haven't shot a couple of matches with a CF .224 cartridge (not a .223 Rem) then you don't have a memory bank of impacts burned into your brain to compare.

You're the only one trying to make it an argument. I was shooting fast 22s with heavey bullets before you ever joined the sight. Yes, i say 105 have considerably more splash than 80-90g bullets. You want to argue semantics of what considerably is. Its more. There is no debate. At the same time, I see people going back to 6.5 creed because they want to spot hits and misses better. It's mostly all give and take.

 

[jthor]

Some folks have gone back to 6.5 Creeds for the primary reason of using heavy 6.5 bullets with better BCs to help in really windy environments. More splash is just secondary or tertiary

 

[supercorndogs]

"Ranges where spotting impacts isn't an issue." I want to go to some of these "ranges."

 

[JR1200W3]

You're the only one trying to make it an argument. I was shooting fast 22s with heavey bullets before you ever joined the sight. Yes, i say 105 have considerably more splash than 80-90g bullets. You want to argue semantics of what considerably is. Its more. There is no debate. At the same time, I see people going back to 6.5 creed because they want to spot hits and misses better. It's mostly all give and take.

I first joined this site about 6 years before you did.



......

 

[hlee]

I first joined this site about 6 years before you did.



......

So, a sleeper creeper…

 

[hlee]

There's going to come a day pretty soon where average folks begin to realize solidifying your Internet presence isn't a good thing

So, you’re a “no” for the gift exchange this year?

 

[hlee]

If it's herpes, count me out

Well, being that you’re still in, at least in concept, I’ll put a line through herpes on the gift ideas list.

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

it's the gift that keeps on giving

 

[supercorndogs]

There's going to come a day pretty soon where average folks begin to realize solidifying your Internet presence isn't a good thing

be a lot sneaker if you didn't spill the beans on your secret identities.


Wait. Isn't it against the rules to have multiple accounts?

Changing accounts isn't hiding anything from people who's job it is to find stuff.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

it's the gift that keeps on giving

Homeboy's posts or herpes?

 

[hlee]

Homeboy's posts or herpes?

Yes

 

[JR1200W3]

I just scanned the 6 ARC load data page. There's a ton of guys shooting 90gr 6mm bullets. And hilariously, guys shooting 108's at 2425 - 2450. 400fps slower than what I'm shooting 85's in my 20" 22ARC, lol

"The bigger 6mm bullet hits harder."

Does it though...?

 

[45-90]

In the 6mm ARC 18" Proof AR 15 I ran the 112 Barnes 2540 to 2554 fps 9.8 S/D.
The 110 SMK average 2553 fps. The 115 DTAC average 2532 fps.

The 6 Dasher long barrel
And the 110 SMK at 3085 fps
107 gr 3132 fps
58 gr almost 4100 fps.

Don't have the 22 ARC, ...yet.

 

[CA48]

For keeping inside of safe pressure limits of an ar15 those numbers should be about 100-200fps considering 24" barrels.

It should be well within safe pressures. Hornady black ammo 75gr eldm is so mild it makes the case black 3/4 of the way down the case in a bolt gun and it runs at 2960fps out of a 20” barrel. Factory 80gr eldx runs 2920 out of a 20” barrel.

 

[supercorndogs]

It should be well within safe pressures. Hornady black ammo 75gr eldm is so mild it makes the case black 3/4 of the way down the case in a bolt gun and it runs at 2960fps out of a 20” barrel. Factory 80gr eldx runs 2920 out of a 20” barrel.

Hornady and Hodgdon reloading and pressure data paints a diffrent picture.....

 

[hlee]

Hornady and Hodgdon reloading and pressure data paints a diffrent picture.....

There’s “SAAMI safe,” then there’s “SH safe…”

 

[CA48]

There’s theorizing data and modeling it without ever actually reloading for a cartridge. Then there’s actually shooting and testing it yourself.

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

it doesn't seem like there are many first hand accounts of the 95 smk or 90 smk in the 22 arc or 115 DTAC bullets in the 6 arc

maybe the case size doesn't have enough capacity to push them to a reasonable mv?

 

[Tex68w]

If you hit the target and no one knows it, does it count? If you can't spot your miss, what is the correction? Spotting misses and hits is quite important to getting on target.

105+ bullets splash better and move plates considerably more than 80-90g 22 cal bullets.

I figured this was implied in this comparison but it seems some are too dense to grasp the concept and want to argue other merits that are absolutely meaningless at 1000 if you can’t SEE or HEAR the impact/miss lol.

 

[supercorndogs]

There’s theorizing data and modeling it without ever actually reloading for a cartridge. Then there’s actually shooting and testing it yourself.

Exactly actually shooting it with proper velocity and pressure measuring equipment like Hotnady and Hodgdon did...vs.....well some dude on SH who may not be able to lace his boots straight is loading it. Must be perfect

 

[supercorndogs]

There’s “SAAMI safe,” then there’s “SH safe…”

AKA Why are these grendel/arc bolts so weak?

 

[st1650]

Suprised nobody came up with a stronger 62K PSI grendel bolt + barrel extension combo
Maybe something inspired from the KAC E3 .. Not sure if there is still an active patent on these

 

[st1650]

it doesn't seem like there are many first hand accounts of the 95 smk or 90 smk in the 22 arc or 115 DTAC bullets in the 6 arc

maybe the case size doesn't have enough capacity to push them to a reasonable mv?

That's the issue, case is too small for a 2.26 coal and super long bullets because of the AR15 mag limit.
Which also makes the case inefficient with varget and 4350, the only decent powders would be N140 and N540. Otherwise you gotta use the CFE223 and LVR which are not amazing powders.

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

That's the issue, case is too small for a 2.26 coal and super long bullets because of the AR15 mag limit.
Which also makes the case inefficient with varget and 4350, the only decent powders would be N140 and N540. Otherwise you gotta use the CFE223 and LVR which are not amazing powders.

I am remodeling my house right now and packed up all my reloading gear ... so it will be a few months for me ...

I will be experimenting with the highest bc bullets I can find in 6mm and mostly using Staball Match and Staball 6.5 but will try all the powders I have

I will update once I can

Maybe by that time I will find someone to either trade or buy all my 5.56 stuff and I'll start with experimenting with 22 arc plus 6 arc

 

[jthor]

Didn’t Giesselle claim to have a better ARC bolt with a different material? You’d probably need to go to a larger frame in order get the 62k PSI. The bolt just needs more meat.

 

[CA48]

Exactly actually shooting it with proper velocity and pressure measuring equipment like Hotnady and Hodgdon did...vs.....well some dude on SH who may not be able to lace his boots straight is loading it. Must be perfect

Exactly using Hornady black ammo is what I’m referencing. Tested and designed with all Hornady’s fancy equipment is where I’m getting my velocity data from not some random guys reloads on SH. Black ammo which is a mild lawyer proof load for ars at 2960fps out of a 20” barrel.

Hornady’s gas load data shows top powders in the 3100 range for the 75s with a 24” barrel at 52k.

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

These are all the loads listed for the highest bullet weights on Hodgdon's Reloading Manual for both 22 ARC and 6 ARC

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

In the 6mm ARC 18" Proof AR 15 I ran the 112 Barnes 2540 to 2554 fps 9.8 S/D.
The 110 SMK average 2553 fps. The 115 DTAC average 2532 fps.

The 6 Dasher long barrel
And the 110 SMK at 3085 fps
107 gr 3132 fps
58 gr almost 4100 fps.

Don't have the 22 ARC, ...yet.

Which one did you prefer for your 6ARC between the 115 DTAC , the 110 SMK , and the 112 Match Burner? I guess I could buy a small box of each and since which one my 16" 6 arc proof barrel likes the best

 

[MaximusDecimusMeidius]

the 110 smk for the 6 arc and the 95 smk for the 22 arc look like they have similar bc's and similar velocities based on sierra's and Hodgdon's published data

the only thing is it is hard to find a 1:6.5 twist barrel in a 22 arc which is what sierra recommends

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I ran the numbers on this and changed my mind multiple times for probably two years before pulling the trigger. This was even pre-ARC, so we're talking 22 Grendel (which is exactly 22ARC) and 6mm Grendel (close enough to 6ARC it makes no difference). I ended up going 6mm. Since then both calibers have gotten better as new bullets have come to market.

After years of pre decision anxiety I've been quite happy with 6mm Grendel but have realized that most of the targets I hit with it I would also be hitting with a 5.56 because the overwhelming majority of my shooting is inside 700 yards.

Every now and then I still run the numbers for fun but now understand that for MY situation it makes almost no difference. Will it make any real difference for the OP or is he just chasing advantages on paper?

 

[45-90]

Here's the 6 ARC next to 224 Valkyrie.
The 224 has slightly more, 1/2 gr H2O case capacity than the 22 ARC.
So with the 22ARC is basically a 224 Valkyrie in a different package, requiring slightly less bolt pressure to be safe in an AR.
Which would make the 224 Valkyrie slightly superior to the 22 ARC, with slightly more case capacity and able to run st higher pressures....interesting
Plus the 224 Valkyrie comes in 6.5 twist for 95 gr SMK....and may be able to run varmint bullets 30 or 40 fps faster.

Pretty much the same thing, different package...Hornady...and don't forget each is the best cartridge design ever.
Except wildcaters have been doing this many years.
My 2 ARs 6mm ARC in Proof barrels are very accurate, alot of 1/2" or less 5 shot groups at 100 yds.
It's not fast and best with heavy bullets that is was designed for, and I like its accuracy, a good little AR cartridge.
The 22 ARC will be similar, should be a good little AR cartridge. Take your pick I already a 224 Valkyrie.