22LR SASS/AR - What’s the most accurate and most reliable out there?

[jharms80439]

All,

I’m looking to buy/have built a 22LR upper as a Match Grade 22LR SASS trainer on an AR platform. The rifle will be for 22LR steel matches out to ~300 yards and as a 3 Gun trainer. It’ll likely wear 3-15x MIL based optics and a side 45 degree RMR which is the same as my AR-308.

Criteria is that it must be capable of 1MOA or better (with the right ammo) and run like a sewing machine. I’d prefer a 16” ish barrel length too.

I’ve looked at uppers from JP Rifles, Compass Lake and Keystone - including just about everything/everyone that CMMG sources parts. I’ve also read most everything I can find on 22LR uppers and it seems a mixed bag for accuracy and reliability.

Recently I spoke with JP Rifles and their response was less than enthusiastic around accuracy - they said ~1.5 MOA is standard - some are better and some are worse, but it will be insanely reliable. Several other manufacturers have claims around being “match grade” but offer no specifics on accuracy - but know that I haven’t called everyone yet either.

Since I already have a 22LR trainer built for my 308 & 6.5 bolt guns - and have gone through the ammo search for it, so I sort of know what I’m getting into. I also get that ammo in a semi may print differently than in a bolt and what I use for the bolt may not print best in the semi - and I’m okay with different ammo for each rifle.

Finally, I also get that a 10/22 (built Ruger or Kidd) “could“ do the same thing as an AR upper build. The problem with going down that path is that it doesn’t check the trainer/same controls box.

So, I’m before I go down this path, I’m curious about the experiences some of you may have around such a project. As an AR 22LR trainer, is reliability and accuracy mutually exclusive or can both be had?

Help?

John

 

[bfoosh006]

No offense intended at all... but are you trying to shoot to 300yds and less, with a 22LR ? I am trying to figure that part out... and just trying to clarify

It can be done, but that trajectory will be quite the arch at 300yds and less. After about a 125yds my 22LR ( from a rifle ) drop like a rock.

And run like a sewing machine ... is heavily dependent on the ammo, in my experience. And that ended up limiting my ammo accuracy wise.

And FWIW, I built a 22LR "Trainer" for the 3 Gun range ( only 22LR and pistol rounds allowed on those range )... and promptly swapped to a 9x19 PCC... the recoil from the 22LR was not "realistic" enough for me. The 9x19 blowback was better training wise.

The 22LR "Trainer" has been turned into a "Snap Shot" small vermin AR used at 100yds or less.

Again, not trying to be a PITA, just trying to figure out the range you want the 22LR to shoot to.

 

[deersniper]

Pretty sure compass lake is what you seek

 

[Lawless]

Not sure this is possible with the AR platform.
Has peaked my interest though.

I have shot to 400 with 22 subs and supers, it’s tons of fun. 16” Kidd with Eley Contact was about 21 mils from a 25 yard zero. Others were as much as 23 mils. Regular Federal bulk surprised everyone with ability to consistently hit at 400 and only 19 mils.

 

[jharms80439]

bfoosh006,

It’s all good. Great questions to clarify.

Yep, 300 actual yards on steel - and I currently shoot my bolt 22LR at those same distances (at steel) several times a month. A couple of months ago many were there also with 22LR’s were swinging a 6” square headshot target at ~290 with twitchy winds.

Anyway, you’re right, ammo may be a pain, but no more than what we go through with long range 22LR bolt guns.

If you thing modified NRL, you’d be close. Targets range from ~50 yards out to just under 300, with many in the 80-250 range. But know that I’ve taken my 22LR bolt gun out to 400 at our range.

It’s a bit comical to watch a good buddy get frustrated shooting his match AR at 400 and I’m lobbing 22LR rounds at the same target and hitting the same target consistently - then switch to my AR-308 and hit it again. We do poke a bit of fun at each other, but we learn tons while shooting too.

So far, I’m still looking for match accuracy and sewing machine reliability, so keep those questions and comments coming.

John

 

[jharms80439]

Pretty sure compass lake is what you seek

Could very well be as I’ve heard/read good things.
Unsure if they’ll do a ~16.5” barrel though. Seems the like to specialize in 22”-ers.

I’ll likely reach out to them early next week - same for Keystone.

John

 

[jharms80439]

Not sure this is possible with the AR platform.
Has peaked my interest though.

I have shot to 400 with 22 subs and supers, it’s tons of fun. 16” Kidd with Eley Contact was about 21 mils from a 25 yard zero. Others were as much as 23 mils. Regular Federal bulk surprised everyone with ability to consistently hit at 400 and only 19 mils.

I’m truly unsure too! I know it’s possible with a bolt gun, but I’m way out of my knowledge zone with an AR22.

I have a 20 MOA base on my bolt gun which helps, but while fine, I wish that I bought a 30 MOA base. I have already picked up a 30 MOA for the AR build. At 280 yards a few weeks ago, I was up 10 Mils from a 50 yard zero.

John

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I'm more about making a 10/22 do what it was designed to do, but better, than trying to make an AR do what it wasn't meant to do in the first place. Back around 1998, I did that with a 10/22, and sunk about $850 into it, then...

The outcome is a 10/22 I'm not parting with for all the tea in China, India, and several smaller SE Asian countries. But it's also a very limited firearm for a very limited set of circumstances.

I've got better toys for beyond 100yd; ones with actual reach-out terminal delivery. For out to 600yd, the AR in 223/5.56, and the same distance with a bit more clout, the 6.5 Grendel. The .308 for 1000yd, and the .260 for out to 1200+ yd.

Not knocking on any doors past that far. In reality, hopefully not knocking on any doors at all.

Commonality of controls is a mythical issue. Know your firearm, whatever it is.

Greg.

 

[Lawless]

I’m truly unsure too! I know it’s possible with a bolt gun, but I’m way out of my knowledge zone with an AR22.

I have a 20 MOA base on my bolt gun which helps, but while fine, I wish that I bought a 30 MOA base. I have already picked up a 30 MOA for the AR build. At 280 yards a few weeks ago, I was up 10 Mils from a 50 yard zero.

John

I have a 20MOA on my Kidd, 100 yards was up 2 mils, 200 yards was up 7, 300 was up 13, 400 was 21(all with Eley Contact 42g, those 2 extra grains help some out past 300 in wind).

A sub drops 280” at 400 LOL, like dropping mortars.

A bunch of buddies rented a range for 2 days, camped out and had a blast with the intent to shoot 22s long range.

You can see once I connected (wind constantly varied) that I walked up the 400 yard silhouette.

@armorpl8chikn was there with his awesome “annshootze”.

 

[deersniper]

^ I want your avatar on a t shirt lol

 

[jharms80439]

Greg,

I get it - I may be chasing a dream with this project. I used to shoot my AR-10 a bunch. Chased 600 yards for a bit, then out to 1k. Same with my 2 bolt guns.

A while back I got back into 22‘s again with the intent to shoot a lot more without breaking the bank and without driving 3+ hours to get to a 1k range, so I built up a 22 trainer for my bolt guns.

Shooting steel has been a blast. Taking a KYL Rack out to 100 yards is a kick, and a cheap 2” 5 pot self resetting target at 200-250 yards is a total hoot with a 22LR. It’s (relatively) cheap to shoot and it’s 45 minutes from my house.

But I really miss shooting my AR and since I already have a spare AR-15 lower, it seemed a natural step to build up a 22 version. I get it that a 10/22 would get me there too, but I’ve been on a move to gain more consistency with actions for all my firearms training. I now have 22 trainers for everything EXCEPT my AR.

When I bought my Armalite (I bought it used for a song), but it just didn’t run right. It was accurate as heck, but I wasn’t able to tune the gas to run right, so I called in Armalite and coordinated to send it back. First, they shipped it both ways on their dime, turned it in 3 days, and it now runs like a sewing machine. Any position, any distance and I’m confident in my ability to connect.

I guess I’m a bit jaded after my Armalite experience. I know AR’s can be reliable and accurate, so that’s my goal with a 22 AR. I’ve HEARD/READ that some of the AR 22 uppers are either reliable and eat up any ammo, but accuracy is marginal. Others have great accuracy when single round fed, but suffer in reliability when magazine fed.

My goal is to find/build one that does both and matches the controls and optics of my AR 308.

Make sense?

John

 

[jharms80439]

Lawless,

GOOD SHOOTIN’

22’s truly are a hoot at distance.

John

 

[Lawless]

^ I want your avatar on a t shirt lol

If you meant me, I created that myself from a graphic of Kokopelli (Native American god). My wife and myself both have NA bloodlines and my niece is half and keeps me informed on all the politics and such.

Lawless,

GOOD SHOOTIN’

22’s truly are a hoot at distance.

John

My favorite/most used Guns are my Kidd and my SW15-22

I have a Ruger American Rimfire I have done a good bit of work on and it ain’t no slouch either.

 

[jharms80439]

All good guns.

I really like my Tikka T1X and shoot it the most, but my buddy has his eyes on it. I’ll probably end up with a Vudoo at some point.

John

 

[Tra08]

To the OP, you may want to check out Kriss USA. They make an Ar22 that accepts 10/22 barrels. I don’t personally have experience with the firearm, but it looks very interesting. Plus it gives the endless option of the 10/22 barrel selection.

 

[natdscott]

My Keystone/Shilen Ratchet has gone as high as 400-29x on the 50y NRA targets. It’s one mean bitch, and I am just a lowly sling shooter, but even with a 4.8 lb trigger, my trailing average is 99.3% @ 50.8%X. I am not very good by Smallbore Prone standards, but it’s a helluva proof of concept for the rifle.


Send me a # and I’ll show you some .22LR groups that will probably surprise you.

 

[natdscott]

To the OP, you may want to check out Kriss USA. They make an Ar22 that accepts 10/22 barrels. I don’t personally have experience with the firearm, but it looks very interesting. Plus it gives the endless option of the 10/22 barrel selection.

That’s pretty decent advice, and a great idea.

But what I’ll say is that if you get the RIGHT barrel...”endless” barrel options are relevant only by how much they bog down your competitors.

 

[natdscott]

Could very well be as I’ve heard/read good things.
Unsure if they’ll do a ~16.5” barrel though. Seems the like to specialize in 22”-ers.

I’ll likely reach out to them early next week - same for Keystone.

John

Frank will do anything you want to pay for, as long as it’s safe.

Remember here, y’all are talking about Compass Lake and Keystone Accuracy as though they are “big box store” companies.

They aren’t.

Call. Ask.

And a protip: Scandale builds a .22 upper as well as anybody on the planet has ever built one.

Same as Frank.

 

[jharms80439]

Looks like I have some phone calls to make this week!

From my own research, and what you all are bringing to the table, option a) is a Compass Lake or Keystone upper and (now) option b) is a Kriss!

Since I prefer buying an upper, or option a), I‘ll give both Frank & John a call around an upper first...

Seems the major philosophical differences are that Frank makes the best (slightly modified) M-261 kit and Keystone Incorporates a feed ramped barrel with a modified CMMG BCG.

I’ll learn a bunch more when I call.

John

 

[natdscott]

Either way, John, shoot me a message before you buy, etc.

I have considered listing mine, as I am restructuring away from the AR a little.

John and I didn't necessarily agree on everything I asked him to do "special" on mine, but either way, it sure does hammer.

It's a ~23" Shilen Ratchet in a BCM A4, with a JGS Match chamber the reamer for which I sent with my barrel. It is legitimately 1/2 Minute at 50, and 1 Minute at 100, or better. (I have only really shot it sling prone, and Eley Match is as high as I ever went with it.)

The barrel, forward of the guards is ground to 0.750" parallel, so it can have a front sight band put anywhere you want. The contour under the guards is ~1.00" +/- for 3", then 0.875" to the end of the guard, then 0.750" to the muzzle. It balances well, and is presently under a Compass Lake Match Rifle float tube.

-Nate

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

There is a guy on these boards that had built a special 22 upper in an Mk12mod1 I believe using a bartlein barrel and it shot pretty impressively (within your requirements).

Might want to look into having a setup custom built for you if you really are looking for accuracy.

 

[natdscott]

There is a guy on these boards that had built a special 22 upper in an Mk12mod1 I believe using a bartlein barrel and it shot pretty impressively (within your requirements).

Might want to look into having a setup custom built for you if you really are looking for accuracy.

And your post made me think of this:

In NO way am I recommending Scandale because mine happens to be put together by him, regardless of whether I list it or not. His skill and reputation speak for themselves.

@FUNCTIONAL I agree with the "custom for accuracy" thing, but I would caution anybody to also LISTEN to the likes of Frank and John first, and see if you really do want anything different than what they would normally do. You may not.

First and foremost upgrade is, as always, a premium tube. (Duh.)


...and do some research about whose RIMFIRE barrels are best. It is NOT the same people, necessarily, whose centerfire barrels are so good.

Look to the BR Rimfire winner's equipment.

 

[jharms80439]

Awesome counsel gents.

Nate, I sent you a PM.

Yep, both John & Frank have great reputations. It’ll be fun if/when I get to work with them!

John

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Yes, John; it makes perfect sense. But that doesn't mean it's doable or feasible for a reasonable cost. My 1999 $850 10/22 was not an economically sound approach the issue. But since I already have it...

I say go for it, and invest in the dream.

Greg

 

[kl3309]

To the OP, you may want to check out Kriss USA. They make an Ar22 that accepts 10/22 barrels. I don’t personally have experience with the firearm, but it looks very interesting. Plus it gives the endless option of the 10/22 barrel selection.

Got one, it mostly works but eats firing pins. Have also broken the proprietary bolt catch.
Moving on to another home build using the CMMG bolt and a Catch22 bolt catch (for MP15-22 mags). Haven't decided on whose barrel, maybe a Beyer.

 

[natdscott]

Hardest part will be finding a trigger good enoug

Why do you say that?

 

[kl3309]

Why do you say that?

Started to type something but didn't finish the thought and edited it out.
Was going to mention that trigger selection plays a part in reliability and function.
All the rimfire bolts I've used have a vertically offset firing pin so you'll have to use a hammer (or trigger pack with a hammer) that's not notched or otherwise contoured, and that has a long enough reach. Otherwise, you'll get only a partially strike on the firing pin giving you inconsistent ignition.
You may also have to tune the firing pin spring should you opt to use a trigger setup that has a lighter strike than a GI trigger. Go too far away from spec and you start overstressing and then breaking firing pins.
And, with too light trigger/hammer springing, your bolt may be running too fast so you have problematic ejection.

 

[padom]

I have a 12.5" Keystone Accuracy 22lr Green Mountain side charging upper. Super accurate for semi.

 

[ToddM]

There are a couple makers that do custom 22 uppers like compass lake or keystone, I'd focus on them, or avoid the AR platform all together.

I tried the JP kit and it's actually back at JP right now being evaluated, the reliability was 100% with all ammo, but the accuracy was closer to 3MOA across various match ammo. My volquartsen shot better groups at 100 than it did at 50. To JP's credit they also agreed it performed poorly and are evaluating it now. Also to their credit I have seen reviews of their upper, though very few are out there, that did shoot very well.

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...not-shooting-well-ideas.6960286/#post-7975733

I keep wanting to fall in love with a long range precision 22, especially with .22 PRS matches gaining popularity, but they are just too limited at 100 yards and greater. My understanding is it's simply the lack of consistent velocity due to the nature of the rimfire cartridge to hold tight groups at/past 100 yards. You can spend $3k on one and $0.50 a round for Lapua X-act and it still likely won't hold 1/2 MOA at 100. With .22LR it doesn't matter how much $ you throw at one, after 100 yards they all suck. I'd rather just shoot a .223 where for much less $ you get much better performance.

 

[jharms80439]

@ToddM,

You may be right. But as a comparison, let’s stretch your .223 to 600 or 800 yards to see how you do. Perhaps your .223 at 600/800 yards will be similar to me with a 22LR at 200/300?

For me it’s about access to a range that I can shoot a fur piece with any gun that is fairly close to my home... (AND) it’s also more about using the 22LR as a training tool - using my tools to judge distance, read the wind, estimate trajectory, shoot from positions other than prone/bipod and use my scope dials/reticle a bunch - than it is about printing little groups in paper at known distances. Perhaps I’m practicing “Practical Accuracy” in my own training?

Now, it’s also about not just shooting prone with a bipod - it’s about shooting from barricades and positional shooting. For your consideration, my Tikka T1X (bolt) is a consistent 1/2“ to 3/4” at 100 yards with SK Long Range match 22LR ammo - if the wind cooperates and I do my part on the trigger. Know that if it’s pretty calm out and again I do my part, it’ll hold 1.5” at 200 and sub 5” at 300 yards too. At 22LR matches, I’ve consistently hit 1-2 MOA targets at ~290 yards. Yes, the wind does give us all fits, but when calm, most of the people there can hit it consistently too. If the wind reading skills are spot on, I’ve see (others) clean the 300 yard stages too (10 hits @ 10 shots).

FWIW, my home range has a dedicated long range that goes out to 600 yards. Last time I shot my AR 308 there, I put 10 shots in ~6” (from prone, off of a bipod and I did it multiple times throughout the day). However, I’d need to travel 3+ hours each way to practice shooting prone/bipod any further. Last time I shot 200/300 yards At my range with the Tikka, I was consistent ~8 of 10 hits on a 2” steel target.

That said, I know I need to train more, so I’m looking at adding another tool to train with (and shoot it on a budget). I like shooting my AR-10 and want a trainer version in a 22L, so I’m not reloading as much and not spending $100-$200 every time I go to the range with my 308.

So, take it that I’m cheap (I prefer to say economical), but I get to do it with great tools.

John

 

[Lawless]

People may say I’m elaborating, but my particular SW15-22 is exceptional compared to the 3 previous ones I have owned. It is plenty good for smaller plates out to 100 from a rest or barricade and closer in it is excellent.

No it isn’t a precision caliber rifle but for carbine training purposes this particular one leaves nothing to be desired.

It just has a VQ extractor and a CMC 3.5lb flat trigger, wears a Romeo 5 and a MFT Minimalist. It has shot under an inch from a rest at 50 on bags and that is as good as I can hold/see with a dot.

Previous examples were not nearly as consistent.

 

[ToddM]

If you are shooting 1.5" groups at 200 yards with a 22LR I'd say you don't need anymore training that would be competitive on a regional scale in 200 yard dedicated 22 competitions. National record level 200 yard groups hover just under 1" and are extremely rare.

 

[TimK]

I've been after the exact same thing for the same reasons. My first attempt was with a Nordic upper. Accuracy was ok, but I was never able to get it to shoot under 1.5 moa at 100. My 40X will shoot just under an inch at 100, so that was my standard.

A friend has two CLE uppers, and those things really shoot. Well within my requirements. I called out there and had a long conversation with them on the subject, and they convinced me they had what I wanted. I had a barrel cut to mimic as closely as possible my centerfire rifle and built up an upper that was visually indistinguishable from my CF rifle.

Getting it to run was quite a process. I did eventually get it to function reliably, but it took a fair amount of work. Interestingly, all the work had to happen on the magazines. I'm now in possession of 5 fully functional mags.

Accuracy was very mediocre being roughly the same as my Nordic, perhaps even a touch worse. I tested 20-25 types of ammo from all the big names. It won't feed the Eley EPS bullet no matter what, so I'm limited to round nosed bullets. I ended up convinced that barrel wasn't going to shoot, so I sent it back to CLE for evaluation. It arrived there last Thursday and I haven't heard back from them yet. I'm hopeful that a new barrel will improve the situation. We shall see.

If this experiment with the CLE doesn't work, I don't know what to try next. I have a S&W 15-22, but I've never tested it for accuracy. I'm not enthused about that option due to the light weight, but I suppose I should run a few types of ammo through it and at least see what it's capable of doing.

 

[Lawless]

@ToddM,

You may be right. But as a comparison, let’s stretch your .223 to 600 or 800 yards to see how you do. Perhaps your .223 at 600/800 yards will be similar to me with a 22LR at 200/300?

For me it’s about access to a range that I can shoot a fur piece with any gun that is fairly close to my home... (AND) it’s also more about using the 22LR as a training tool - using my tools to judge distance, read the wind, estimate trajectory, shoot from positions other than prone/bipod and use my scope dials/reticle a bunch - than it is about printing little groups in paper at known distances. Perhaps I’m practicing “Practical Accuracy” in my own training?

Now, it’s also about not just shooting prone with a bipod - it’s about shooting from barricades and positional shooting. For your consideration, my Tikka T1X (bolt) is a consistent 1/2“ to 3/4” at 100 yards with SK Long Range match 22LR ammo - if the wind cooperates and I do my part on the trigger. Know that if it’s pretty calm out and again I do my part, it’ll hold 1.5” at 200 and sub 5” at 300 yards too. At 22LR matches, I’ve consistently hit 1-2 MOA targets at ~290 yards. Yes, the wind does give us all fits, but when calm, most of the people there can hit it consistently too. If the wind reading skills are spot on, I’ve see (others) clean the 300 yard stages too (10 hits @ 10 shots).

FWIW, my home range has a dedicated long range that goes out to 600 yards. Last time I shot my AR 308 there, I put 10 shots in ~6” (from prone, off of a bipod and I did it multiple times throughout the day). However, I’d need to travel 3+ hours each way to practice shooting prone/bipod any further. Last time I shot 200/300 yards At my range with the Tikka, I was consistent ~8 of 10 hits on a 2” steel target.

That said, I know I need to train more, so I’m looking at adding another tool to train with (and shoot it on a budget). I like shooting my AR-10 and want a trainer version in a 22L, so I’m not reloading as much and not spending $100-$200 every time I go to the range with my 308.

So, take it that I’m cheap (I prefer to say economical), but I get to do it with great tools.

John
View attachment 7172893View attachment 7172918View attachment 7172919

What about a Kidd in a Kidd Chassis? Equip it with the same grip and stock as your big AR. We’re not talking carbine drills here so safety location and such won’t really matter as the mechanics of shooting will be (mostly) the same.

KIDD Tactical Chassis- 16 Inch (Expect to ship December 11th

 

[Lawless]

I have a S&W 15-22, but I've never tested it for accuracy. I'm not enthused about that option due to the light weight, but I suppose I should run a few types of ammo through it and at least see what it's capable of doing.

I have thought about putting my old PA mil/mil 4-14 FFP on mine and see if it really will shoot. I know it’s probably atypical as my first 3 were not like this current one but perhaps the barrels and overall quality is better now. For what it’s worth, the first 3 were the old ones with quad rail style front, this one is a round Mlok style “rail”.

 

[jharms80439]

Getting it to run was quite a process. I did eventually get it to function reliably, but it took a fair amount of work. Interestingly, all the work had to happen on the magazines. I'm now in possession of 5 fully functional mags.

@TimK,

Two items. What did you actually do to your magazines? (And) Does the CLE have an integrated feed ramp like the Keystone or is the breech face flat like the Military trainers?

John

 

[jharms80439]

@Lawless ,

Thought hard about a 10/22 in an AR style chassis. I’d prefer to pursue the AR22 dream though.

I feel it in my bones that accuracy/reliability in an AR22 is possible. From what I’m reading out in the ether, it’s been had, but they are truly few.

I recently shot with a few truly customized 10/22s and they were outstanding. For the price though - and because I already have my lower - as most of them had ~$1200+ all in. If I can climb into an accurate/reliable upper for that I’ll be a happy camper.

Of course, it could be less $$ but then the different controls are still at issue.

John

 

[jharms80439]

If you are shooting 1.5" groups at 200 yards with a 22LR I'd say you don't need anymore training that would be competitive on a regional scale in 200 yard dedicated 22 competitions. National record level 200 yard groups hover just under 1" and are extremely rare.

@ToddM,

Since I’m shooting steel, it’s really the “ding” or silence that tells the tale.

But, I get your point. Like I said before 8 hits on 10 shots at 200 yards on a 2” piece of steel is terrific fun. In the pics that I posted above are with my Tikka. 2”x5 pot on the left, KYL on the right. Even at 12x power on my scope, seeing the steel is easy, hitting it was HARD. In the end, yep true 8 of 10 consistently - from bipod, bag & prone.

I recently built a barricade simulator device for my tripod. A week or so ago, I set up the same two targets at 80 (KYL) & 110 (5 pot) yards, then practiced barricade position shooting with 2 minute timers (including the move) - 2 shots at a target then move.(prone, then standing/kneel/crouching, the back to prone) Right handed I could clean the 5 pot and get to the 1/2” on the KYL, but no further. Left handed - way different story - I SUCKED.

Best and cheapest 2 hours of practice that I’ve ever had...

John

 

[Lawless]

@Lawless ,

Thought hard about a 10/22 in an AR style chassis. I’d prefer to pursue the AR22 dream though.

I feel it in my bones that accuracy/reliability in an AR22 is possible. From what I’m reading out in the ether, it’s been had, but they are truly few.

I recently shot with a few truly customized 10/22s and they were outstanding. For the price though - and because I already have my lower - as most of them had ~$1200+ all in. If I can climb into an accurate/reliable upper for that I’ll be a happy camper.

Of course, it could be less $$ but then the different controls are still at issue.

John

I salute your pursuit, fraught with danger and possible disappointment. It deserves a film, with Nicholas Cage as the star.

“Credit card and hope was all he had. They said it couldn’t be done, they said he was chasing the wind....He was Chasing The Dream.”

 

[natdscott]

lmao!!! Can we PLEASE avoid another Cage movie?!

 

[TimK]

@TimK,

Two items. What did you actually do to your magazines? (And) Does the CLE have an integrated feed ramp like the Keystone or is the breech face flat like the Military trainers?

John

John, the tops of the magazines were just touching the bottom of the bolt and slowing it down enough to impede proper cycling. I went after them with a Sharpie to see where they were hitting and just filed those spots away. I also ended up putting in some bolts to hold the magazine inserts at the correct angle. I'll get a pic if you're interested.

I'm embarrassed to say I can't remember if it has a feed ramp...as I said it's back at CLE. I'm 90% certain it does not.

 

[ToddM]

While this can be an issue on the centerfire AR's as well on the Rimfire AR's it does seem like Mags are a weak link, it's very easy to get either feeding issues, or bullet deformation while feeding with the ones I've used, which granted is not many. My guess is this is one of the big issues, the other is that the couple of examples of AR rimfires I've seen while they've been reliable the firing pins do not seem to hit very hard compared to my other rimfires. With a rimfire cartridge I wonder if this also contributes to poor accuracy due to creating more inconsistency in ignition. Perhaps they are doing this to avoid dry firing damage to the chamber rim.

I'm guessing many of the AR rimfire setups are enlarging their chambers to get more reliable function, but that is counter productive to accuracy. While my most accurate 22's all need their chambers cleaned after a couple hundred rounds and are too tight for some ammo. With all the posts of people having issues getting even expensive AR rimfire kits to shoot well, it seems like you can spend a lot of time and $ trying to chase an accurate AR rimfire upper. It seems chasing an accurate 10/22 build these days certainly not guaranteed but is easier/cheaper.

It will be interesting to see what JP reports on the barrel kit I sent back for eval, I even told them if they can get it to shoot like my volquartsen I'll happily pay them to build it into an upper.

 

[jharms80439]

@TimK,

I “think” you’re right - if memory serves - the CLE doesn’t have a feed ramp. Perhaps someone else that has one will chime in.

Good stuff on the mag info too. I’ll be wary and check everything when I get it.


@ToddM,

Luckily I haven’t had any mag issues on my AR10, but a buddy has on his AR15.

I get it on chamber size too. So far on my Tikka, I’ve been cleaning bore snaking between 120 and 150 rounds. Not too clean in the barrel either. IMHO/Historically my AR actions are cleaned well and oiled moderate-heavy, barrels are cleaned thoroughly at ~300 rounds or so. Unknown on a AR22.

Bummer on the JPE problems. When I spoke with them on the phone, they weren’t that enthusiastic about a sale (and I was READY to buy too). Frankly, I’m glad I didn’t as I don’t think it would have been for me - but seem to do well for others.

FWIW, I‘ll be posting in the next day or so some (sort of universal) observations that I’ve come across. Like belly buttons, this’ll be IMHO only - from reading, gathering data and talking with gunsmiths/manufacturers.

Going through this process (for me) has been enlightening too. I’ve really learned a lot. Know that I’m more convinced than ever that accuracy/reliability are attainable in an AR22 - but both do come at a price.

John

 

[Greg Langelius *]

The shaman with the flute is Kokopelli.

Swag.

Shirt, you say...

Greg

 

[jharms80439]

All,

FWIW, here are my observations around AR 22's after reading way more on AR-22's on RFC and SH than I should have AND talking with just about everyone that makes a kit, an upper or has complete rifles - just remember this is IMHO only.

1) JP Rifles - reliable, accurate but not MOA accurate - specialty is for 3-gun not 200+ yard steel shooting - no custom work, two models, if you go into the builder you can specify a few build differences, but not many. Several have posted here and over at RFC about long distance accuracy issues, but few have posted around reliability issues. I'm unsure whether the bolt holds open on last round or not. Uses Black Dog magazines.

2) Compass Lake - reliable and uber accurate - specialty is as a national match trainer (primarily slow fire where any malfunctions should they occur are not as critical) - would work great as a long distance steel rifle, but short timed competition, I'm unsure - builds with long barrels too - long barrel philosophy is to ensure the bullet stays subsonic. Very similar to the military M-261 semi auto trainer (Air Force IIRC) with a flat breech - no feed ramp. Website says it's an improved design, but again most CLE uppers are single fed where a jam is somewhat irrelevant. Only shot one of these - very accurate, was very reliable too. Bolt doesn't hold open unless with the BobSled. Uses the M-261 style of magazines or AR-15 mags with an insert (insert doesn't hold bolt open). Unsure if a Catch22 is necessary or will/won't work either.

3) Keystone Accuracy - uber reliable and uber accurate - full auto capable, accurate as a gnat's a$$ - no specific specialty - but it'll work well for me and shooting steel at 300 yards. John (Keystone's owner), is willing to do just about anything you want and will make it the best that he can make it - however, he will not guarantee that your plan (whatever you want him to actually do) is optimal/good/accurate - but he will make it reliable - so choose wisely! CMMG bolt based design but has an integrated feed ramp engineered into the barrel and stuff on the CMMG bolt machined off. IMHO this is a better design than the M-261 based design - and the standard CMMG bolt conversions used with an AR-15 1:7 barrel. Bolt is designed to hold open on last round with Black Dog magazines.

4) Pretty much all others have marginal accuracy - 1.5"-2" at 50 yards - and/or (so I've seen/heard/read) marginal reliability. That includes most of the factory built rifles too. An exception may be the Kriss Defiance design which uses 10/22 barrels. It's new so time will tell.

FWIW, I'm on the Keystone Accuracy bandwagon as I was able to locate an upper that is still relatively new. I'll know in a couple of weeks when it arrives whether she is a shooter or not. If she is my buddy will be ponying up for a Keystone Accuracy upper as well.

Again, just IMHO.

John

 

[padom]

All,

FWIW, here are my observations around AR 22's after reading way more on AR-22's on RFC and SH than I should have AND talking with just about everyone that makes a kit, an upper or has complete rifles - just remember this is IMHO only.

1) JP Rifles - reliable, accurate but not MOA accurate - specialty is for 3-gun not 200+ yard steel shooting - no custom work, two models, if you go into the builder you can specify a few build differences, but not many. Several have posted here and over at RFC about long distance accuracy issues, but few have posted around reliability issues. I'm unsure whether the bolt holds open on last round or not. Uses Black Dog magazines.

2) Compass Lake - reliable and uber accurate - specialty is as a national match trainer (primarily slow fire where any malfunctions should they occur are not as critical) - would work great as a long distance steel rifle, but short timed competition, I'm unsure - builds with long barrels too - long barrel philosophy is to ensure the bullet stays subsonic. Very similar to the military M-261 semi auto trainer (Air Force IIRC) with a flat breech - no feed ramp. Website says it's an improved design, but again most CLE uppers are single fed where a jam is somewhat irrelevant. Only shot one of these - very accurate, was very reliable too. Bolt doesn't hold open unless with the BobSled. Uses the M-261 style of magazines or AR-15 mags with an insert (insert doesn't hold bolt open). Unsure if a Catch22 is necessary or will/won't work either.

3) Keystone Accuracy - uber reliable and uber accurate - full auto capable, accurate as a gnat's a$$ - no specific specialty - but it'll work well for me and shooting steel at 300 yards. John (Keystone's owner), is willing to do just about anything you want and will make it the best that he can make it - however, he will not guarantee that your plan (whatever you want him to actually do) is optimal/good/accurate - but he will make it reliable - so choose wisely! CMMG bolt based design but has an integrated feed ramp engineered into the barrel and stuff on the CMMG bolt machined off. IMHO this is a better design than the M-261 based design - and the standard CMMG bolt conversions used with an AR-15 1:7 barrel. Bolt is designed to hold open on last round with Black Dog magazines.

4) Pretty much all others have marginal accuracy - 1.5"-2" at 50 yards - and/or (so I've seen/heard/read) marginal reliability. That includes most of the factory built rifles too. An exception may be the Kriss Defiance design which uses 10/22 barrels. It's new so time will tell.

FWIW, I'm on the Keystone Accuracy bandwagon as I was able to locate an upper that is still relatively new. I'll know in a couple of weeks when it arrives whether she is a shooter or not. If she is my buddy will be ponying up for a Keystone Accuracy upper as well.

Again, just IMHO.

John

My Keystone side charging upper is super accurate. The uber reliable part comes down to ammo type, not the upper in the Keystone case. For straight steel plinking in the pistol pits I run Winchester SuperX 1333fps and it runs like a swiss watch from 25rd black dog mags.

For accuracy CCI SV is super accurate. Sub moa at 50yds from the bench

 

[Lawless]

4) Pretty much all others have marginal accuracy - 1.5"-2" at 50 yards

wow.

 

[jharms80439]

wow.

Some of the accuracy issues are from the 1:7 barrels and some from cheap ammo as @padom noted above. It could also be that they were shooting offhand and not from a bench or prone. Not much data out there as most are using the CMMG bolt conversion style in a 5.56 upper are plinking and aren't trying to squeeze the most out a 22LR.

The uber accuracy claims above obviously come salted over a bit with finding what SV ammo shoots well in your gun. Also know many of the premium options (i.e. CLE/Keystone) out there have stories of shooting great less than 1 MOA with relatively cheap ammo too - of course YMMV with each gun preferring one round/bullet shape/velocity over another.

Hopefully mine will run great with SK LR Match and I can stick to one ammo type for both the bolt and semi-auto.

John

 

[Lawless]

Some of the accuracy issues are from the 1:7 barrels and some from cheap ammo as @padom noted above. It could also be that they were shooting offhand and not from a bench or prone. Not much data out there as most are using the CMMG bolt conversion style in a 5.56 upper are plinking and aren't trying to squeeze the most out a 22LR.

The uber accuracy claims above obviously come salted over a bit with finding what SV ammo shoots well in your gun. Also know many of the premium options (i.e. CLE/Keystone) out there have stories of shooting great less than 1 MOA with relatively cheap ammo too - of course YMMV with each gun preferring one round/bullet shape/velocity over another.

Hopefully mine will run great with SK LR Match and I can stick to one ammo type for both the bolt and semi-auto.

John

I’m going to have to try it for real with a spare scope but I would bet my SW15-22 would shoot under 3/4” at 50, maybe better.

 

[padom]

Here what my Keystone barrel looks like with the integrated feed ramp




My 12.5" Keystone side charging 22lr