.257, Viable LR Caliber?

B

Bushmaster

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Minuteman
Dec 8, 2008
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Edinburg, Texas
#1
I was wondering if anyone is using a 25 for any LR shooting. There are limited higher BC bullets, but it seems to be an asskicker. I have a 25-06 Rem Sendero that I dropped into a HS 2000 stock w/ a falcon 4-14 on top. I recently found a load for 115 Berger VLD's over IMR 4064@ 2990. I shot this past weekend w/ a friend and his 308/ 155's @ about 2950. We were neck and neck to about 600 and then I gained on him. I was holding considerably less wind at range as well. I'm impressed w/ this setup thus far and cant wait to take it prarie dog shooting next year w/ 75 gr VMaxes. Its gonna be dirtnaps for lots of dogs! LMK if anyone else is running a 25.
Thanks, Justin
 
#2
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

Bushmaster,

Yes, it is a very viable Long-range round when high BC bullets are used. I shoot both the .257 Rob. and the .25 WSSM and I used to shoot the .257 Rob AI. All shot the 115 Berger's outstanding and the 117/120 SMK's nearly as well. I also shoot Wildcat bullets made by a guy in Canada, Richard Graves. He sold the business to a guy in Elko, NV. I understand the new owner will be up and running mid-June. The wildcat bullets are phenominal for BC. But, super high BC also means trouble stabilizing. The bullets I'm talking about are ULD's not VLD's. I can't remember what the 115 BC is but they make bullets for .257 as high as 156 gr. Those would take a 1-7" to stabilize. More commonly, you would find 120's, 125's, 130's and 142's. The 120 and 125 can be stabilized through a 1-10" tube. Provided it's long enough to get the proper velocity. You'll need about 3k fps on the 120/125's to get them to stabilize.
Note: I went a little weak with my .257 Rob with the 115's and they didn't stabilize. I picked them up a bit and shot a one-hole 3 shot group. Stick them into the lands and push them hard!

-good luck
 
#3
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

Sandwarrior,
Glad to hear you're a 25 fan,I would like a link for this bulletmaker if you got one.I can imagine that anything over 130gr would be awesome in 25cal at the right velocity. I started this thread just to see if anyone has realized the potential for 25's. All the talk for mid to LR is about 30cal, 6mm,6.5mm, and 7mm. Which are all great. I just like straying off the beaten path from time to time. The mild recoil and variety of 25 calibers make a good choice for first time shooters. More responses will be appreciated.

Thanks, Justin
 
#4
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

I have sent an email to Berger bullets a while back asking if they would consider manufacturing a VLD bullet in the 130-135gr range. In a .257RobertsAI should easily match the .243 w/115DTAC's with the better barrel life.

Haven't heard back........yet.
 
#5
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

I'm looking into a Rem 700 BDL Varmint weight .25-'06 heirloom rifle, and the Pejsa spreadsheet for a 100gr SMK doing 3300fps with around 55gr of Ramshot Hunter makes 1Kyd with velocity to spare.

Just keep in mind this cartridge is as overbore as many hefty magnums, and bore life is not going to be stellar.

Greg
 
#6
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

From a technical perspective the quarter bore as it is known is superior to the 6mm bore. It makes a better "tweener" between the 223 bore and the 6.5 bore. Back in the day, oh 40 years ago, the quarter bore was the ultimate in versatility - varmints to any North American big game.

Today you have basically one higher BC bullet and it is offered by Berger. Building a rifle around it would not be a bad thing if one is inclined to buck the current trends.

That said, the 30-06 case would not be my first choice for driving a 25 caliber slug. A 6x47 Swiss Match would be, or even one of its original - the 250 Savage case. In today's market you'll need 22/250 brass and I would neck it up in two steps.

257 Roberts +P brass if you could find it would be another choice. Do some research on the 257 Roberts AI for an eyeful of good info.
 
#7
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

The link for the wildcat bullets is http://wildcatbullets.homestead.com/

And the new email is: [email protected]

As noted he will be making bullets in mid-June.

Also,

regarding the various .257 calibers available.

I would certainly concur with ninehotel that the 6/6.5x47 case would be optimal.
P.O. Ackley wrote that his most successful "improved" cartridge was indeed the .250 Savage AI. Not the .257 RobAI as most people think. The .257 AI was his most successful commercially, however. It (.250 Sav) got the most powder increase yet still the most effective use of the powder then available (I'm betting mostly 4895 mil-surp). He was able to attain 25-06 (then .25 Niedner) velocities from that cartridge. It stayed right up with the .257 Rob. AI. Of course then there wasn't near as many different brands of powder on the shelves, nor as diverse a selection of bullets.

Given the same twists as the 6mm's pushing high BC bullets out you will definitely be able to push out some very heavy for caliber bullets. Certainly as heavy as the standard 6.5's. As far as the 25-06 being a barrel burner it could well be if care wasn't taken to slow down the shooting. The volume of powder would certainly cause premature erosion. However, I find this also to be true, no matter which caliber you shoot, is that you will increase erosion exponentially when you constantly shoot at top pressures as well. Meaning a 30-06 sized case will cause less erosion when loaded to 52-55K psi than a Mauser (.257 R{+p} is a Mauser case) or .308 case loaded to 60-62k psi. You will get near equal velocity from the lower pressure as the total volume behind the bullet will bring it up to speed. Using a slower powder, with lower pressures, in a longer barrel is the way to keep barrel life up.

Also, FWIW, Remington makes standard .257 Brass which is supposed to be 170 gr. Winchester and Federal make .257 +p brass which is supposed to be 185 gr. Hornady/Frontier brass is around 180 gr. They used that for the standard loads as well as their Light Mag loads.
 
#8
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?


"That said, the 30-06 case would not be my first choice for driving a 25 caliber slug. A 6x47 Swiss Match would be, or even one of its original - the 250 Savage case. In today's market you'll need 22/250 brass and I would neck it up in two steps."

I tend to agree w/ you there, however I had the barreled action from a deer rifle and decided to burn up the barrel before rechambering. It seemed to work out well as a mild LR caliber so far. And its still the best whitetail caliber IMO.

NH why would you choose a 250 Savage case? Is it simply for efficiency? Doesn't the '06 has more capacity? Or could you rival the velocity from a 250 to a '06? Also form an availability stand point they are both equally easy/hard to obtain. Whats the results of necking up the 6X47? Haven't read up on it. I think Sandwarriors point on barrel life is spot on.

Thanks for the links and the dialogue, very cool.
 
#9
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

Seems to me the best balance of performance/capacity and barrel life would be something like a:

.250Savage AI, .25Souper (.257-08) and 257Roberts AI

The .250AI would be VERY close the a 6x47/6XC with better barrel life.

The .25Souper would be a .260Rem.

The only thing really holding the .257 bore diameter back is the availability of some VLD bullets with BC's above .550. Maybe something in the 130gr range.

If the bullets were available then fast twist barrels will be made. It's the chicken or the egg question.
 
#10
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

I'm not going to re-hash the whole why not 30-06 case issue here.

Do your own research. Look at total powder used and the end velocity with the bullet weight, barrel life, and barrel length you are interested in. Make your own decision as to where you want to be on that curve. I like the chamberings in the 36-39 grain powder capacity range made using cases that are commonly available when looking at 6mm and 25 cal bullets.

On using up your current barrel, two comments. One, does it have a twist rate that will support the high BC bullet, and two, why build your resource plan around a factory tomato stake barrel?

Just trying to provoke thought, not make judgments. Nothing wrong with making the most out of what you have for the time being.
 
#11
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

My tomato stake barrel holds around .5MOA, which for my purposes is plenty good to bang my 18X30 steel sihloutte out to 1200yds. Just being cheap at the moment. I do plan on rebarreling it later to another caliber. I dont know the rate of twist, but it stabilizes the 115's fine, Im guessing maybe up to 130? I agree that a caliber w/ a decent barrel life is practical (2500+ rounds) But for now I have a good shooting little caliber that smokes a 308. I hope I burn it up sooner rather than later.

I realize the lack of good bullets, realizing its a rhetorical question. Just curious to see how many people may stray from the conventional calibers.

Thanks
 
#12
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

Bushmaster,

It's always a guess as to whether heavier or faster is going to win for the day. For years it was the stalwart .30 cal's that always won. Then 7mm's came on line. Then back to the .30's. Then the 6.5's and now the 6mm's are the big deal. Then out of the blue some guy in CA sets a record with a .284 Win. We are also at the same time trying to figure out just exactly how to keep our barrels from eroding with the right load out of the right case.

It's funny in all the trends over the years that the .277 and .257 calibers were largely ignored for the longest time. Minimal bullets in each caliber for long range accuracy. Yet they sit right in that node where you get efficient case capacity to drive high BC bullets out at competitive speeds. There's finally a couple bullets in each caliber that may open one of these as the ultimate in long range accuracy.
 
#13
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

I'm thinking maybe a .250Savage AI with a 1-8" twist barrel and 130-135gr VLD bullet would be EXTREMELY competitive with the various 6mm and 6.5mm's

Only real fly in the ointment is I can't find a 130-135gr VLD .257" bullet.
 
#14
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

I put a Lothar Walther 257 2100 taper barrel [$145] from Brownells on a VZ24 stock and action [$70] BIG5 in 2002.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=15610&title=RIFLE%20BARRELS
I trued the action, lapped the lugs, glass bedded, Silver Soldered a trigger job, bent the bolt with Oxyacetylene, drilled and tapped for scope, put a Leupold 40X on it.
I cut threads and chambered the barrel for 257Roberts Ackley Improved.
That rifle at best will shoot .45" and average .8" 5 shots 100 yards with 75 gr Vmax. It averages .5" when my brother shoots it.
It can launch them at 3900 fps with short brass life and 3600 fps with long brass life.
But the 75 gr Vmax is not the best long range bullet.
With 100 gr long range bullets, the average is 1" 5 shot at 100 yards.
The 100 gr group prints 1" to the left of the 75 gr.
That old military stock is twisting in reaction to the riflings twisting the bullet.
I am going to have to put a stock with a flat forestock to get the rifle to twist less.
 
#15
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

The same issues the 25 cal has, is the same as the 270 cal. I've been a fan of the 270, and have yet to build a good rifle in this caliber to go long range with. With the best bullets used, they will be a great LR round with a quality rifle/barrel, and outperform the 308 Win and other calibers. But, why, if there are still other bullets/combinations that will outperform these options. That's the direction most LR shooters go. The 6.5, 7mm, and some 30 cal bullets have BC's over .6.
 
#16
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChadTRG42</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The same issues the 25 cal has, is the same as the 270 cal. I've been a fan of the 270, and have yet to build a good rifle in this caliber to go long range with. With the best bullets used, they will be a great LR round with a quality rifle/barrel, and outperform the 308 Win and other calibers. But, why, if there are still other bullets/combinations that will outperform these options. That's the direction most LR shooters go. The 6.5, 7mm, and some 30 cal bullets have BC's over .6. </div></div>

Why? because no one went with 6.5 until there were VLD bullets. Then the shooters found it was awesome. Then some shooters said "do the same thing to the 7mm" and that was even better. Other shooters said the same about the 6mm. What they found was they had higher speed and enough improvement over in BC to beat the 6.5 and 7mm...in low winds. So, if we kept trying to get into .257 and .277 cal bullets maybe there will be a better selection in the future for them for long range.

The Wildcat Bullets I mentioned in my previous posts have .257 cal BC's exceeding .7 for the very heaviest. They also make 169 gr. .277 bullets that I believe the BC is around .8. But it does take a twist that you are not going to see off the shelf in any of those calibers. So there you have it. You have to go outside the box if you want to do any improving.
 
#17
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

.25 that reminds me....
My First LR match ever some 10 years ago at Badlands in Oklahoma I used my favorite hunting rifle a Sako L61R 25-06 all factory with a Bushnell 10x that I could barely afford at the time. A week before the match Badlands Bobby ran me through the steel targets all the way to a 1000 with consitent hits :D, I had no idea what i was getting into but i was hooked.

I had found that Sierra 100mk @ 3300fps worked good for my rifle, all my years spent shooting targets, milk jugs, and every animal i ran across just barely gave me the training i needed to finish middle of the pack in the match, but really that was just the beginning.

25-06 is very viable LR hunting,target or tactical cartridge, it has some limitations, but it will outpreform many, but as always it all comes down to the shooter after that.
 
#18
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

I'm hoping a bullet manufacturer introduces a GENUINE VLD bullet in .257 and .277 with BC's in the high .580's or .600.

I've contacted Berger about it but no reply. Maybe someone is reading this post.....

It really is the Chicken and the Egg situation. If bullets become available then fast twist barrels will follow.
 
#20
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

Don't get me wrong, I'm as big a fan of the calibers based on the 30-06 case as anybody. But look at it from a feasability standpoint. I would say 98% (or more) of the 25-06 and 270 Win rifles are factory rifles, or rifles with custom barrels with the same twist rate as factory. The factory twist rates on both the 25-06 and 270 is 1:10. This would limit the weight of the bullet in the 25-06 to about 120 grains, and the 270 to about 150 grains. If you make the bullet more ULD (Ultra low drag), it gets longer, so you would need more twist to stabilize. So my question is, how many people would really switch over (from a .308, 7mm, 6.5, or 6mm) to a 25 or 277 bullet/caliber, buy a new rifle or upgrade an existing one, AND shoot this new bullet enough to justify the cost for a bullet maker? I don't think the market is there. I have been shooting the 135 SMK's in my 270, and I haven't even tried the Bergers yet in my personal 270. I have been wanting to get some loaded up, but the 300WM, 260 Rem and other match calibers are getting loaded. I am very thankful Berger came out with 3 great options in the 270 caliber. I hope they sell a lot of them to stay around. But I think we have the best and highest weight/BC bullets available in these calibers.
 
#21
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

I loaded some Berger 150 VLD's for my Brother for his .270 WSM...to shoot out in NV, From the standard twist they stabilize just fine. The .257 wildcat bullets in 125 and 130 stabilized in a 1-10" twist while being pushed very hard. The 142's did not. They would require at least a 1-9" twist and probably to be more easily stabilized if you didn't load so hot a 1-8" twist. Those twist don't come off the shelf...then again neither do most super accurate rifles. So here's a list of barrel makers that do a little tighter twist than what you find on the shelf.

Lilja: makes as tight as a 1-7" twist. ...you can stabilize 156 gr. .257 cal bullets with these.
Pac-nor: makes a 1-8" twist Which will stabilize up to 142 gr.
Hart: makes a 1-9" twist
Shilen: makes a 1-9" twist
Broughton: Makes a 1-9" twist in their 5C style rifling.
Douglass: makes a 1-9" twist.

Those 1-9's will all stabilize a 125 or 130 gr. VLD As noted the two higher twists will stabilize the heavier mentioned bullets. But, the bullets are out there you just have to get hold of them.

Edit:

ChadTRG42,

The bullets out there will easily stabilize in the current off the shelf twists. Nothing is really pushed to the edge right now. As noted 125 ULD's will stabilize in a 1-10. If Berger were to make a 125 VLD it will stabilize in a 1-10". 90% of shooters go to what's available 10% think outside the box and we come up with stuff like the 6.5-.284. That case has been around since the early sixties yet didn't really see any serious competion until the '90's. It just takes people to go to the .257 cal with their next barrel and see how the heavy bullets shoot. You never know, it may be the best balance of weight vs. speed. I know they are good.

Buffybuster,

The reason Berger probably hasn't contacted you back is they are already at max production with their current orders. I wish they would also put out a 125 gr. VLD/ULD type bullet. With the backlog of J4 jackets it probably isn't going to happen within the next year for sure.
 
#22
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

Sandwarrior,

You and I are on the same page and I realize in all likelihood the manufacturers are maxed out trying to meet the current demand for components/ammo.

With the popularity of the 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm bore diameters in Long Range/Precision Rifles, it's rather frustrating the "in between" calibers (.257 & .277) are being bypassed. Doing some calculations a .257" cartridge with about 40grs of useable capacity shooting ULD/VLD bullets might be the best balance of .243Win/.260Rem virtues.

I have a 25/06 and it shoots 100gr bullets very fast but I think that's too much powder to get acceptable barrel life.
 
#23
Re: .257, Viable LR Caliber?

Buffybuster,

I agree, it will take a huge swing in consumer demand followed by renewed abundance of resources, i.e. quality copper jackets for the market to change.

As an aside to this I was out this past week shooting my 6mm Rem with 95 gr. Berger VLD's. I typically push them to 3150-3200. I have to say the barrel gets really warm really quick. I was usually still able to hold the barrel on the .257 after ten shots. Not on the 6mm.

The 6mm 95 gr. VLD has fantastic numbers on it, which I haven't been able to test. But in the limited head to head I shoot with that and the 115 VLD. I think the 115 is actually better in the wind. The difference is 2 grains of the same powder, H4350 X.
 
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